I have tried to find a thread on this topic but my search fu is weak, if there is one please point me to it.
A recent trend in smaller game companies is the paying for beta access. You see it in games like Nether or 7 Days to Die. The idea being that it gives the developers a bit more cash for the final push of release, people who are very interested in improving the game testing it and a way for players to support the game.
It has it's drawbacks of course, bugs get talked about louder and more, people confuse the beta with final release ect
I am just wondering if a paying for beta model is something the devs and players are interested in?
At this time it is not planned that City of Titans will have a paid beta.
Unfortunately this practice is by no means restricted to smaller companies.
I am not in favor of this practice. The idea of asking people to pay to (theoretically) help to improve the game does not sit well with me. That simply is not something that should be used as a marketing/sales tactic. To me that's on a level with calling the open beta 'early access'.
It is a completely different matter to provide a guaranteed beta invite or two as a gesture of thanks for buying the game. For my part, I am not expecting any kind of guaranteed, open-ended beta access just because I have a 'K' under my handle.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I hate the idea of paid beta. Now Beta invites to those who prepaid for the game before released sure. Pay to Beta test a product, then pay to buy the game itself no. Beta is a testing field for a not yet ready product. It can also be used as advertisement getting people excited about the game by letting them get a test drive.
By making it you have to pay to play an Open Beta you are limiting that free advertisement.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I would be willing to do Beta for free but I agree, paid Beta is something of a con IMHO. The is no guarantee that the money you pay while helping them 'improve' their game actually goes into the game itself. I'm cynical these days...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I am surprised at the opinions on this.
It seems more the words I used than the idea that bothers people....if I had said pre-order with beta access your fine....I said paid beta with examples of how it's used (Nether, 7Days to Die) and its a bad idea. They are both essentially the same just worded differently as a marketing tool.
But as was said its not the plan so ok....I am just looking for ways to contribute to the game as I missed the Kickstarter entirely.
Sorry Islandtrevor they are not the same thing. Getting access with Pre-order is your getting the game. We are thinking of Paying to play JUST the beta and not gaining access to the whole game after release.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
You may be thinking that but its not what I meant....this is why I used the two examples to show how the process works. Steam is calling it 'Early access' now. This method of direct feedback from fans was used to the best effect by 'Minecraft'.
As I said I wanted a way to contribute to the game, this is an established practice in the gaming industry that may have flaws but seemed to fit very well with MWM's origins.
I would think there'd be a distinct difference between pre-paying $5 for a game that ALSO gives you early beta access versus paying $5 ONLY for early beta access. In the long run if a game is going to cost me $60 then one of those ways means I only owe $55 more instead of the full $60.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think some clarification is needed on what is meant by 'beta access'.
This is from the description of the Kickstarter's $10 pledge level. Emphasis is mine.
There is no information of which I am aware that guarantees anyone unrestricted access to CoT's closed beta.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I'm really sorry everyone, I honestly thought people knew and understood what the alpha/beta build access plan meant so didn't have to explain it too clearly.
Basically the game's development gets to a stage where its open for testing, sometimes its alpha (in the case of games like Minecraft) sometimes its beta (in the case of Nether).
For games that are independently published that has extremely limited funds when they get to this stage may find that another infusion of cash helps not only the development, but marketing. They could seek other means such as investors or take loans to get that infusion but those carry drawbacks. First, they may not find people to invest, or loan to them. Second if they do get investors they can become beholden to them depending on the deal they made.
So they take a look at selling an unfinished game during the alpha/beta stage for a reduced cost. This has many positives and negatives. For example the positive is they get word out about the game, build interest early. They also get people who are genuinely interested in the game to help iron out problems and give direct feedback. For small companies with a tight budget just these can help marketing a lot. It also give another infusion of cash at a development/marketing stage. As I said there are negatives. some people who buy this 'early access' do not fully understand that it is not a finished project. There is also a greater emphasis on problems within the game and it can color someones opinion of the game. There are more negatives as well but I think you get the idea. A big one I am starting to see is that people don't understand what exactly this approach is.
Keep in mind that the when you pay for this early access you are not paying just to be part of the beta...you are buying the game too. Sure this can have an impact on sales when the game is released, those most interested in the game already having bought it at a discount, but as this is an MMO that is going to include a subscription service the initial sales are not the longterm plan for profit.
I figured with this style of release the unpaid volunteers could get paid a little earlier, some money can go back into the game and it could help with the ends of paid marketing. It would also help people like me who missed the Kickstarter help financially with the games development.
Keep in mind that this kind of thing has already been done to a limited extent by MWM inside the kickstarter, one of the perks was early access to the game.
That is why I suggested this as another way to raise funds.
Regardless, It's been said that there is no plan for this so its a non-starter.
I'm vaguely familar with how Minecraft was released. But frankly no matter how "grassroots" CoT might be I never really would have ever imagined MWM following the path you suggested with your "buy the unfinished game as a beta" route. Sure MWM might not be a huge Blizzard-like company but it's not quite a "single guy working out of his garage" scenario either.
I have no problem with contibuting to this game even beyond getting anything directly for it. For what it's worth I actually dropped a relatively large amount on the CoT Kickstarter. But I think you outlined enough negatives for your idea to sort of answer your own question for why it's not going to happen here.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
You are of course free to think what you want, but I doubt I would call games like 'Day Z standalone' 'Hawken' 'Dead State' or 'Loadout' a single guy working out of his garage scenario.
As for the negatives, I don't see how they answer my own question. I see more benefit to this than negative but then I don't know the MWM's plans so don't know how this would fit in. Was just a suggestion.
It is worth noting as well that it isn't even small companies that do something like this.
SOE have done with Everquest Landmark for access to the "alpha" client... shame that the price started at $100 or so. Elite: Dangerous as well, although in their case they set the bar for access even higher (but on the flip side, I don't believe that it was the ONLY way to get into the beta... they just might not have publicised it about other routes)
[url=http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/17/the-soapbox-enough-with-selling-alpha-tests-already/]Massively did a column questioning if it is ok to sell alpha test slots[/url]
It is also worth noting that for digital downloads, once you had paid the money for it, the amount of time between Alpha and "launch" is normally long enough for people to not always be able to get a refund[1]. This is particularly poignant when you have to consider that the access packs are not always "cheap". The thing is, in an alpha/beta I expect it to be buggy and there to be roll backs, character wipes, system changes. But I don't expect to *pay* for the privilege of paying just to get into the game at that point in time[2].
I think though that because over recent years, most companies have been using Beta's as a marketing tool (even "closed beta's")
[1] This of course depends on what country the person is from, the country that the company is based in, and also any consumer protection laws that might be applicable at that point in time.
[2] If I remember correctly, with Minecraft it was a one off cost, that the Notch said would be *cheaper* than the retail price of the game. For CoT to do something similar, it would be along the lines of "Pay $25, get into the game early, you don't have to buy the game for release" or something along those lines. However for an online game, there then raises the problem of "Will there be any wipes? And if so, what does the company plan to do to resolve this problem...especially in Alpha/Beta stage where hours of work can be *erased* due to unforeseen problems".
Infact it raises the bar to "Should the player expect stuff to get wiped in Alpha/Beta stages of the game, *especially* once they have paid money to get into it?". This is most applicable to games that have an online component, and they don't necessarily have to be MMO's.
*Edit* Forgot my standard disclaimer:
All my own opinion, warranty void in all countries and states on planet Earth, your milage may vary, do not use this opinion if you are damaged etc etc
Let's just say I don't want to "buy" an unfinished game on purpose.
I realize people can quibble about what "finished" means in a world where everything can be continually patched - it's just got some bit of "vague unprofessionalism" associated with it. I'll take your word for it that it has worked for a few other games and I'm not knocking your general idea for getting more money to MWM for development. I'd just perfer it not involve something quite like what you're suggesting here.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I am still surprised at peoples resistance to this. Even CoH did something like this way back in 2004. They were actually less honest about what it actually was though....they called it beta access but it was really just you can play the finished game first.
here check this out
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/477/view/forums/thread/8554/City-of-Heroes-PreOrder-bonus-boxes-available-online.html
edited to include
You can quibble on details but in essence if you paid anything into kickstarter you have done just that.
This is a doom and gloom commentary on the industry of gaming. In it he also implies he has reservations about a kickstarter funded project too.
As for your question about character wipes...I am currently in the early access Nether beta. Nether is a FPS survival game, live as long as you can, gather supplies but when you die you start all over.
The reason I bring up Nether is it has a way to store items for use with future characters. So even though you have died and have to start over you can have a leg up. This relates to your 'will characters get wiped'. In nether you are told up front very clearly that new game builds may wipe your character or change what you have...including what you have stored. It has happened a few times. Also when I joined the beta it was made very clear that when the game was released that I would be starting all over.
How MWM would have handled this aspect would have been their own choice...but again ...been told they are not doing this.
Edited to include:
I would also like to point out that the 'Early Release' titles on steam are some of the higher selling titles.
If it helps with updates to the game i'm willing to pay
~The Shadow's Are Coming~
Again this is really a question of just how "finished" the game was at that point. By the time Cryptic was offering "beta invites" for CoH they had a product that was effectively ready for launch at that point. All that was going on was final testing a couple of weeks before they had already set in stone when the retail boxes would be hitting the shelves. They were committed to go at that point regardless.
What you're talking about is opening up what I'd call (at best) an alpha build of CoT to let people slog through major bugs and incomplete game play. As much as I want to play it ASAP I still have enough patience to wait until there's a version of the game available that's at least "vaguely" close to being launchable in a general release.
Yes but amazingly enough I'd rather donate more money to MWM essentially "sight unseen" (like a secondary Kickstarter or somesuch) on the expectation that they will eventually produce a "playable" game as opposed to some piecemeal alpha.
I've been a software engineer for a couple of decades now so I've tested enough of my own unfinished software to want to "pay" to get to do that for someone else. I'll pay them for a playable game that I can enjoy as pure entertainment - I don't need to personally do any serious testing for them. If that's something you'd like to do then more power to you.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm not trying to be argumentative, or try and convince you of anything. I am just one of those people who trys to understand the motivations behind people actions or choices.
It's already been said they have no plans to do this so we are basically just discussing the topic for interest now. If you don't want to discuss it anymore just say 'not interested' and I won't keep asking you questions or making points.
The truth is I doubt I would be much if any help at all in the testing process. I am not a programmer and don't know how to stress test or look for bugs. If MWM had gone the early access route then I probably would do what I had done with the other games I got early access to... play it one day and then go back a month later to play it another day.
For me personally I bought the early access to support a game I would like to see finished. First one I did was Nether, I noticed some things that first day, clipping and such, commented on difficulty and I was done. I have gone back into Nether about a half dozen times since and found nothing else to report. I have not really had any impact on the testing process. But I still got to support the game with my money.
What I am saying is that (as I understand it) a second kickstarter like round of funding is not really a possibility due to legality issues. I missed the original kickstarter completely....I just didn't know it existed. I remembered back how I supported a games in development (Nether, 7 Days to Die, Talisman, Day Z Standalone, Loadout, Rust and Plague Inc: volved). The reason I supported was because they were all games I wanted to see completed, it was incredibly easy to do so as I already had a payment system set up on steam and they offered a sneak peek at the game itself.
I would never have even know about some of these games if it wasn't for early access.
I didn't think that I was paying to test the game, never felt any obligation to do so. It was simply a way to support the game.
Now MWM has stated they are not planning to do this and I am fine with that....I am still just surprised by some of the response to this. It's almost as if many of the arguments (I don't specifically mean you Lothic) are more justifications to a feeling someone has they can't fully explain.
I realize that some of this discussion is kind of splitting hairs as far as what the Devs might call "additional funding" and what potential players are getting for their various kinds of early support.
For instance I know there are people out there who really love to beta test games - not just get to "test drive" a game before anyone else but actually test functionality and write up detailed reports for the Devs. Of course there are other people out there who only like to "beta test" games in order to figure out how to power level to max level or exploit gold making bugs ASAP after the game goes live. So the question becomes does making access to beta testing via payment help ensure you get more of the first kind of "tester" or the later? It's arguable one way or the other.
I think we all want to see CoT be successful and that will require a certain balance between testing and funding. Just because "paid access to beta testing" works for some situations doesn't mean that's a viable solution for all games. I have faith that MWM will make reasonable decisions for their particular circumstances.
As far as future methods of funding goes there are still plenty of options available. Even if a second Kickstarter is not doable nothing would stop MWM from setting up a website for direct contributions (via PayPal or the like). I have no doubt that when/if MWM needs more money to finish making the game they'll come up with methods to make that possible.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I agree.
As I said, this seemed to me to be a perfect fit for MWM. Its advertisement (there are still a lot of fans of CoX who do not know of this project or who may confuse it with one of the other projects), its funding, it beta testers.
But like I said I have no idea why MWM is not planning on doing this, they may very well have a very good reason. It could be not wanting competition to see what they are doing, it could be legal issues, hell it could be simply that steam has restriction on joining the early access program that MWM cannot or will not accept. I am not upset they not are planning to use this idea, I may feel the twinge of disappointment but that's more 'aww I wanted to be the one to come up with a big idea' than anything to do with them.
I just didn't get the resistance from players other than the expected 'this idea is bad for gaming in general' that Darth Fez mentioned.
MWM is dealing with a unique set of variables. First it's trying to make a "spiritual successor" of a previous game whose IP rights are owned by another active company. I'm sure if MWM makes any overtly dumb "copy-cat" mistakes NCsoft would be willing to sue them over it. It's also technically got competition from at least two other spiritual successors and it's unclear what the future relationships between these efforts will be. Then there's the interesting licensing situation with the Unreal Engine 4 and how that might affect how MWM operates.
All of these things (and maybe more) affect how and when MWM will be able to release anything for testing or launch. Perhaps it's just going to end up being less problematic for MWM to keep its testing "closer to the vest" until farther along in the testing process.
As far as the "resistance from players" aspect goes I think that's just a natural push-back from the trends that seem to be happening in the MMO development world. With games starting to offer "founder packs" for multiple hundreds of dollars the idea of getting to pay for beta access just doesn't have a very good "smell test" factor to it.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That really isn't the nightmare part of the 'Early Access' scenario for the gaming industry. Its the inevitable 'get something to beta, sell access then stop working on it' that will happen with the unscrupulous developer. It's going to happen at some point, there is just no way to avoid it. Early access is here to stay. A watchdog group will come to be...much as there is a watchdog group for investment scams, there will be ones for scams in the early access investment too. Until then it is up to us to be informed as to what we are getting into. Steam is already policing some of these issues as best it can. As it did with The War Z (now called Infestation: Survivor Stories).
But these issues and the 'smell test' factor did not seem to be things I had to worry about with MWM so why not go with it. As you said (and I said) we have no idea the reasons behind what MWM makes these decisions unless they tell us...so far they have not and that's perfectly all right (please no dev should feel in any way at all that they need to elaborate on this, the statement was more than enough).
I suppose we'll eventually start hearing more about fraudulent scenarios where a "game developer" will use something like a Kickstarter to get money from people with the pre-planned intent to "take the money and run". But just as significant are the cases where you might have a legitimate developer who initially sets out to actually produce a real game but for whatever reason fails to deliver and leaves all of its contributors out of luck.
Either way one has to wonder if ever-evolving tactics like "founder packs" and "paid beta access" will reach a point where the market will collectively cry out "No more!" and reach a reasonable, logical limit to what potential players will tolerate.
I actually suspect that MWM will not only eventually have their own website for contributions but offer various "enticements/perks" that'll closely mimic what they offered for the Kickstarter. With that I think they'll be able to provide for a more traditional round of limited but free-to-participate testing cycles.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I supported MWM in the kick starter how do I get the 'K'
Issue 0 CoH player barely let my subscription lapse before NC Soft called it quits; my incarnate gear *Sniff*
Global: Chance Jackson; Triumph: Liege Cheetatron X, Fight of Your Life, Down Right Fierce, Infernal Samurai, Time May Change Me etc
you have it now
Thanks islandtrevor72
Issue 0 CoH player barely let my subscription lapse before NC Soft called it quits; my incarnate gear *Sniff*
Global: Chance Jackson; Triumph: Liege Cheetatron X, Fight of Your Life, Down Right Fierce, Infernal Samurai, Time May Change Me etc
Heh, I didn't do it, I just noticed you had it.
I'm getting the beta thing from the Kickstarter anyway, but for me, the biggest reason I have for wanting to participate in the beta (ok, second biggest*) is to make sure that by the time the game goes live I'm fairly certain my computer will run it without major technical issues. Vid card problems, bugs that make the game crash, etc.
*Biggest reason being that the wait is already killing me.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising