Announcements

Join the ongoing conversation on Discord: https://discord.gg/w6Tpkp2

Please read the current update for instructions on downloading the latest update. Players with Mac versions of the game will not be affected, but you will have a slightly longer wait for your version of the new maps. Please make a copy of your character folder before running the new update, just to make sure you don't lose any of your custom work.

It looks like we can give everyone a list of minimum specs for running City of Titans. Please keep in mind that this is 'for now' until we are able to add more graphics and other system refinements. Currently you will need :
Windows 10 or later required; no Intel integrated graphics like UHD, must have AMD or NVIDIA card or discrete chipset with 4Gb or more of VRAM
At least 16GB of main DRAM.
These stats may change as we continue to test.

To purchase your copy of the City of Titans Launcher, visit our store at https://store.missingworldsmedia.com/ A purchase of $50 or more will give you a link to download the Launcher for Windows or Mac based machines.

Out-leveling Content: Why?

21 posts / 0 new
Last post
Comicsluvr
Comicsluvr's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 4 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/07/2013 - 03:39
Out-leveling Content: Why?

One of the many concerns we and the Devs have to face is the idea that lower-level zones might become less populated, turning them into veritable ghost towns devoid of players. This is most common at the lowest levels of the game for various reasons we're all familiar with. The consequences are that we have content that is being under-utilized (which is a waste of resources) and zones that are not fun to play in (something we always want to avoid). During another discussion I hit upon an idea that is likely not new but that I haven't seen discussed much: Drop the process of out-leveling missions completely.

There are several reasons for completing missions. Xp, drops, accolades, another part of an arc etc. However if we level too quickly we can outrace some of these (namely xp and drops). Then we might do the mission anyway but only if there is some alternate reward (or we're being completionists which is a valid thing). However why should we ever really need to out-level a mission?

My suggestion is that outdoor missions (typical street-sweeping) should be tied to the level of the zone. This way you can still outlevel those missions. This encourages higher level characters to move to other areas and leave targets for characters that will benefit from them. However for instanced missions this isn't an issue., Other characters in a zone could care less whether I'm doing an instanced mission or not as it has no bearing on their play. So why should I worry about out-leveling missions? Why not make ALL instanced missions level with the character?

In this way we can encourage population to travel to ALL of the zones even if only to pick up incomplete missions.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

necrophage
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 9 months ago
Joined: 07/06/2015 - 09:55
This is something that I have

This is something that I have thought about for quite some time. Out-leveling seems to be a part of the need for a feeling of progression. Interestingly, it is not an element of real life crime fighting in most ways, but it is in some. A patrol-officer arrests people for the same stuff every day and gets paid the same either way. They can be promoted to additional responsibilities, but that is not the same as leveling up.

I think the Incarnate system was an attempt to tackle some of these issues. In that case, there was no level to obtain, but a given power to earn. The power was helpful, but only added to your character.

Maybe a shifting set of roles and responsibilities is part of the solution. I have to go but I am thinking on this one as well.

Riptide
Riptide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 weeks 1 day ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 07:01
It seems like scaling the

It seems like scaling the content to the players level would be easy enough.
Maybe even scale the abilities of the enemies the same way... level 5-10 or 25-30 Rooks you'd encounter some baddies with comparable abilites of the corresponding powersets. It'd give you more mileage out of each enemy group and keep early content fresher by changing the types of encounters depending on what level you are when you play a given mission.
Also, being able to set the difficulty from say -2 to +5 or some such would allow people who bite off more than they can chew to lower a mission's difficulty the same way you could go streetsweep or whatever to gain a level and try again in other games.

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 6 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
When I think about this

When I think about this scenario, where you were playing with friends and leveled up 5 or more levels, but you really wanted to do your own story arcs on that toon, those missions should just be auto Flash-back' abel (GUI might show a Red'ish outline around those missions) when you set it as the active mission.

It might Auto Exemp you to that missions level.. and you can set the Difficulty higher or lower as desired, but you most likely will leave it as it was.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
One of the bigger pieces of

One of the bigger pieces of the "ghost town" problem was the fact that there was a set number of servers in CoX, and they were all separate from each other.

So imagine there's exactly one server. We all use it. If there are a lot of people making new toons, there will be a lot of instances of Outbreak and/or Atlas Park during that time. Those instances should look and feel full, for the most part, because there are only as many was we need. Likewise, if there are a lot of people on that are level 50, there will be as many instances of Peregrine Island or The Crash Site or whatever to support that. Basically, the problem of apparent emptiness is not a thing at that point, or if it is, it's only a problem in the sense that the zone APPEARS empty because everyone is in a door mission instead of street sweeping. I think if they curtail the mission repeat farming to the point that street sweeping is preferable (and maybe tweak the rewards for street sweeping), then you'd have more people outdoors making the place look full, possibly to the point where they tend to run afoul of each other and need more instances to make the place feel less crowded.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
The issue of scaling content

The issue of scaling content even if limited to instanced missions is that the spawns don't actually scale well to character growth levels. Plenty of people point to the old game's events and say "make the game operate that way", but even this didn't accurately scale well for all levels of play. It also has to do with the sense of growth of the character. At every level of the game (or within brackets of levels) there is a rythm of combat designed with the base difficulty of the encounter. From the spawn to pc ratio, the dps of the typical spawn, to the dps of a character (within bounds) and more. Once you scale everything, the many factors involved go out the window and everything becomes skewed.

At early levels a typical player may have access to a few attacks, lets say 3-4 at the very early levels which are meant to tackle a typical spawn in X amount of time. If that same spawn scales to level 50, where they player now has access to 3 times as many powers, and yet requires just as much, or even nearly as much (let's say for sake of argument a 5 second improvement over time), with all those improvements socketed into powers, all those new powers, and yet base difficulty of the encounter is relatively the same.

Then there is a skew the other way around for character sustainability. The same spawn would have to scale in some form to provide the a relative amount of threat to the PC. Going from level 1 where there are few if any at all protections to level 50 where a character can mave many forms of protections, yet the same spawn results in the same amount of threat to the pc.

Next we would have to content with mission length, map size, non-npc-pawn related obstacles, rewards, faction rep, and on it goes, All which need to scale with the PC level and the factors of time and base difficulty involved. A level 1 map is created with the amount of spawns and time factors that is suitable for what a low level character is capable of while providing both challenge, ability to navigate, and so on. Everything related to how a mission is designed would need to be set up to scale in order to provide parity for all types of classifications and capability.

The development time involved is not insignificant to make sure everything works appropriately (much less approximately). Basically, either the game is designed from the outset to be "without levels" or it is designed with levels and risks out levelled content but provides a sense of growth for the player and what their character is capable of accomplishing.

Izzy hit the mark, it is by far simpler to provide a more robust, ease of access flash-back type system which sees the player character match the level of the instanced missions as well as provide the auto-level of team mates by the team leader's level. This itself isn't "perfect" in terms of PC cabability as even level matching a higher level pc to lower level content still yields the player character an edge in performance compared to a PC that is at the appropriate level to that of the content, but it is by far a more consistant approximation of difficulty scaling than having spawns / maps / obstacles / etc... scale upwards.

[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
There is something to be said

There is something to be said for an Auto-Exemplar functionality to match Mission Content to Player Levels. Such functionality ought to only be "in effect" while inside the Instances of Missions given by that Contact, which then effectively puts "color only inside the lines" boundaries on how strong/leveled the PCs can be while playing that specific Content. That way, if a Contact "deals" in Level 16-20 Missions then you can feel confident knowing that while playing that Content, inside the Instances no one will ever be over Level 20 ... which then puts useful boundaries on what the PCs can "do" inside that Content which the developers and writers can account for (and play off).

One of my pet peeves for Praetorian Content was that if you wanted to do ALL of the storylines (Warden/Crusader and Responsibility/Power) you HAD TO switch off XP gain or you'd outlevel the content and not be able to do all of it (nor could you go BACK to do ANY of it!). With an Auto-Exemplar Inside Instances function operational, you can effectively ditch the entire notion of "you're too high level for my Content, move along to the next Contact already" entirely.

The other option is to take the above notion even further and stipulate that the Contact Level Range constrains the PC's Level Range upper bound via Auto-Exemplar while the PC has a Mission from that Contact active. That way, even if I'm Level 30, if I go back to Galaxy City and pick up a Mission from a Contact that hands out 1-5 Content, then I will be Auto-Exemplared down to Level 5.

The distinction I'm making here is that the Auto-Exemplar function isn't tied to LOCATIONS. It isn't a matter of going to Atlas Park and suddenly I'm Level 6 again (for no readily apparent reason). Instead, it's a matter of CONTACT NPCs, and keyed to Who I'm Working With (and why). Broadly speaking, the model to use then would have been the Task Forces and Strike Forces with their Auto-Exemplar functionality, in addition to how Flashback worked via Ouroboros. Except that instead of that being a sort of "special" feature/function, instead it's a "regular" (and therefore, to be expected) feature/function.

Don't key the Auto-Exemplar functionality to WHERE you are ... tie it to WHO you're working with (and why).

Note that if such a functionality is built in from the ground up, [b]there would potentially be NO NEED for a Flashback system[/b] via an Ouroboros Zone. Instead, each Contact will keep a listing of all of the Missions you have completed for them, as well as a listing of all the Missions you have yet to do for them ... and you'd be able to pick Missions that you've already done before AND DO THEM AGAIN just like you would with a Flashback system via Ouroboros. Except that instead of "centralizing" the Flashback system into the Pillar of Ice & Flame ... instead, the functionality is essentially "natively built in" to each and every single Contact in the game.

Now, this obviously brings up the question of Praetorian style "consequences" depending on whichever path you took previously ... to which the appropriate answer is, the game only "cares about" the most RECENT pathing decision you've made. Meaning ... go do it again if you want to pick the other path.

To be fair, I'd expect that what amount to Storyline Missions, as opposed to Side Missions, would have a "chain" of Missions that would all be linked together, and if you want to replay the chain, my expectation is that (like a Task Force or a Strike Force) you have to start at the beginning of the "chain" if you want to replay the ending. So Storyline Missions would have a "start at square 1" design to them, while Side Missions would effectively be ala carte and not have any pre-reqs for doing them.

Which then opens up an interesting possibility concerning "repeatable" Newspaper/Police Scanner style Mission Content. Instead of just pulling those out of a giant (own) pool keyed to the neighborhood, have the options for those be the Side Missions from all of your local Contacts (meaning, the more Contacts you have in a neighborhood, the greater variety of Side Missions you've got available to you when looking them up in a Newspaper/Police Scanner styled "gimmie something to do" UI). That way, Players would need to essentially "unlock" the various Side Missions from their Contacts.

Do people follow me?

[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
In short, what I interpret

In short, what I interpret from Redlynne, is to make the missions work just like th eTfs did. That is, while doing THAT mission, you and everyone on your team will be auto-exemped to whatever the max level is for that mission. If that's it, I like it.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Comicsluvr
Comicsluvr's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 4 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/07/2013 - 03:39
"One of my pet peeves for

"One of my pet peeves for Praetorian Content was that if you wanted to do ALL of the storylines (Warden/Crusader and Responsibility/Power) you HAD TO switch off XP gain or you'd outlevel the content and not be able to do all of it (nor could you go BACK to do ANY of it!). With an Auto-Exemplar Inside Instances function operational, you can effectively ditch the entire notion of "you're too high level for my Content, move along to the next Contact already" entirely.

The other option is to take the above notion even further and stipulate that the Contact Level Range constrains the PC's Level Range upper bound via Auto-Exemplar while the PC has a Mission from that Contact active. That way, even if I'm Level 30, if I go back to Galaxy City and pick up a Mission from a Contact that hands out 1-5 Content, then I will be Auto-Exemplared down to Level 5."

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I remember something from the CoH forums that stated that the Devs had tried to make the content such that you couldn't possibly get through it all (before turning off xp) with a single character. This encouraged replayability. However I think that one drawback to this is a level of frustration for competionists who want every badge and mission complete for their character. It simply occurred to me that there was no real reason to out-level missions after the 'level matching' code used in the Rikti Invasion events was perfected. Sure, if my lvl 50 walks into a lvl 10 mission with lvl 50 opponents it'll be less of a challenge but Red's auto-exempt idea should fix that.

I was just looking for a way for a single character to utilize ALL of the content without the workaround idea of turning off xp.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
In response to what Tannim222

In response to what Tannim222 wrote: I'm all for a sense of character growth with level. I like leveling up and feeling more powerful and more capable as a result. That said, I can put up with a fairly large amount of non-idealness in the scaling that exists fior teams in missions. I mean, nobody really believes their level 3 toon could hold their own in a level 40 mission, and they should expect a lot of trouble keeping up with the level 40s in that team. I mean, I think we can all face the fact that the level 3 sidekick is getting dragged through that map by the level 40s more or less because they wanted to include the lowbie in their plans for the evening. Any team that tries to do a level 50 mission with one level 50 leader and like 4 level 1-10 toons is in for a tough time, I would expect. Such teams should be allowed by the mechanical workings of the SK system, but ill-fated and not advisable.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Here's the KEY thing that I'd

Here's the KEY thing that I'd like everyone to appreciate with an Auto-Exemplar tied to Mission Contacts setup.

[b]Missing Worlds Media would be free to create more content in EVERY Level Range ... not just at the top end ... forever.[/b]

One of the ... I guess you could call it a set of complaints ... I had with City of Heroes was that you NEVER LOOKED BACK, and that the Developers never looked back either. Once a Zone was "done" it was DONE, and the only reason to add more content to that Zone was a wholesale Zone revamp. I mean, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone at Paragon Studios thinking up more storylines and content to give to the Contacts in Kings Row.

In short, because nothing "new" as far as content was concerned ever got added to the Contacts for "old" Zones, there was always this impetus for Up And Out where old Zones were concerned. Once you left a Zone, you LEFT IT BEHIND and never went back ... unless if a Mission sent you there (usually to a Mission Door or a Glowie). There was always a sense of having "beaten" the area and then moving on. There were no rear view mirrors.

Needless to say, this meant that everyone eventually did a clown car pileup into the Level 50 Zones and basically wound up "stuck" there, and always clamoring for something else to do that matched up with their "endgame" status.

So what if City of Titans wasn't like that?

What if City of Titans was continuously adding content to EVERY neighborhood, rather than just a specific one? I mean, if you want Players to "return" to Low Level Zones, you have to give them a REASON to go there. What sort of reason? Missions. Content. After all, I'm not going to GO to Atlas Park just to GO to Atlas Park. Usually I'd only be going there [b]because I was SENT[/b] by the content that I was doing.

The important distinction that I would like everyone to appreciate would be the sense that although it should be quite possible to "do" all of the content within a specific neighborhood of Titan City, there should never be a sense that we ... as Players ... are FINISHED and OVER WITH a particular neighborhood, and that we never need to look back on it. Even something as "simple" and low bar as having the Content Team make it a goal to add 1 Mission to 1 Contact for EACH Neighborhood in the game would create a sense of having the ENTIRE City slowly growing in a sort of living and organic way.

[img]http://newhopelegacy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/tumblr_lr2icfTjmz1qdfmfho1_500.jpg[/img]

Ohana means Family.
Family means no one gets left behind or forgotten.

It would be really awesome if Missing Worlds Media DID NOT encourage "forgetting" or otherwise "leaving behind" the earliest neighborhoods within City of Titans. Yes, the content for each zone for each neighborhood might be finite, and therefore it is possible to "do it all" and in effect have to move on ... but each neighborhood in the City of Titans should only be limited by the number of stories it CAN tell, not by the number of stories that HAVE BEEN told.

A very long time ago, I advocated that the Content Team ought to assign people to keep developing content for each neighborhood, essentially indefinitely. There should ALWAYS be more stories to tell within each and every neighborhood of the City of Titans. That means developing the stories for all of the neighborhoods gradually in parallel, rather than "taking turns" of dumping all the Dev Love into one neighborhood at a time. If the Content Team can commit to adding content at ALL Levels in parallel ... forever ... then a lot of the issues of Players always moving Up & Out of Zones get substantially mitigated, yielding a more vibrant city life than we would have otherwise had.

Furthermore, with a "reason" to Exemplar on an almost routine basis, you'd see a lot less benefit behind character builds that are designed to operate at Level Cap ONLY. In City of Heroes there was a sort of ... stigma ... associated with low Level content. Positron and Synapse Task Forces, I'm looking at you. Part of this was due to the "no rear view mirror" phenomenon of just about NEVER having new content published for low Level Zones. But if you want to break that stigma, especially with the "completionist" crowd, you're going to have to commit to continuing to add content to EVERY neighborhood, over time, for the long haul, and not just focus on neighborhoods sequentially, letting different parts of the city "take turns" at getting Dev Love to the exclusion of all other places.

And what makes that all possible? Auto-Exemplar to Contact Level while that Contact's Missions are the Active Mission. Not WHERE you are ... but WHO you are working with.

[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 13 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
To be fair, CoX also had the

To be fair, CoX also had the problem not just with the "complete zone, move on, never come back", but also that once you had "outlevelled" the content, the contact wouldn't even give you anything to do.

Most other games would still give you the content, even if it gave you minimal XP. Handy for the completionists... and yes, it can be viewed as the lazy mans solution, but it is also far far better than having to do a work around (oroboros) just to run one quest line that you had missed out on due to out levelling it.

Now, using Oroborus to repeat only content that you have completed? Fair enough, I can deal with that. But that is what it should be limited to in my mind, just the content you completed and nothing else.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

RottenLuck
RottenLuck's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 1 week ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 12/05/2012 - 20:32
I'm also for the Auto-Exemp

I'm also for the Auto-Exemp system. The idea I don't have to shut down XP to finish a story is something I would love. Leveling should gets you more contacts more stories no forbid you from stories or from finishing the storyline you are on.

I also like the idea of the "Flashback" system change what you done in the past.

At max level you should have all the contacts open to you and able to do all of the missions you haven't done yet.

-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Hmmm. This brings up a

Hmmm. This brings up a tangential question.

Contact Forwarding.

If you NEVER "outlevel" your Contacts, what would then be the requirement to meet for that Contact to "forward" you on to the next Contact? Since (one of) the requirement(s) can no longer be PC Level, would that mean that certain pre-requisites with the Contact need to be met in order to be "forwarded" on to the next Contact after them?

Well, the most obvious requirement would be that you've done "all" of a Contact's Missions ... but with a goal of continuous additions to the content available through Contacts over time, that might not be practical. 8 Missions this year could turn into 10 Missions next year.

So my notion of what is an "acceptable" hand-off to a new Contact flag would be something like this:

Complete ONE of the Contact's Storylines
Complete {X} number of the Contact's Side Missions (ie. the a la carte option)

I'm assuming for the moment that Contacts might eventually wind up having more than one Storyline. I'm also assuming that the number of Side Missions that a Contact offers will also increase, meaning that any sort of proportional scaling (let alone 100% completion) would result in a sort of "moving goalposts" target condition.

The important thing here though is that rather than being propelled by Level to go to new areas and seek out new challenges, the only real "push" to move on would be a sense of "I've done everything here" than there would be a "you're too old to ride this ride" sort of vibe. Furthermore, if following the City of Heroes model of Contacts "introducing" you to other Contacts, that would potentially mean that you'd ultimately have a sort of ... tree ... of Contact relationships, such that Contact B can "introduce" you to either A or C, but not Contact D ... which would create another motivation towards going "back" and doing "old" content so as to work your way both "outwards" as well as "upwards" to as wide a circle of Contacts as you can reach.

Consequently, it would be theoretically possible to have a Level Cap PC who, because you've always joined Teams with others to get your XP, never met anyone beyond [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWCq9KiY9Yo]Azuria[/url] in M.A.G.I. and thus have only 1 Contact, instead of dozens of them. It would mean that you would still "need" to do (a lot) of "low" Level content in order to build up your network of Contacts ... and you could do so by Teaming up with other PCs who also need to run those Missions too (or just wanted to, for whatever reason). In other words, actually PLAYING the Missions that your Contacts give you *could be* a motivation to play the game (and see the story?) all on its own ... much like gaining factional reputation or a number of other "social networking" endeavors within the game.

In other words, XP and IGC isn't everything.

And that's even before the Content Team decides to get cute and allow "Mission Shortcuts" predicated on being on good terms with a SPECIFIC Contact, who you might or might not have ever been "introduced" to. I'm not talking about vertical connections through the Contact "tree" ... I'm talking about DIAGONAL ones. Go back 5 Contacts, Go left 2 Contacts, Go up 1 Contact. Yeah, THAT one. That's who you need to take this whatsit to for an opinion ... otherwise you'll just have to {cue Mission Alternative} and do it the hard way. Something like that would make who YOU know somewhat important when it comes to the convenience of certain shortcuts through Mission chains. Thus, being "introduced" to LOTS of Contacts is something that can wind up being "valuable" to a Player in a way that isn't measured in XP or IGC, but rather in TIME SAVED.

Oh and ... just to keep things interesting ...

If completion of certain Storylines results in Praetorian style ... removal ... of certain Contacts from YOUR game, but then someone ELSE says you need to talk to them (even though they're "dead") and you decide that you want to explore that particular branch of the Tree of Possibilities ... well ... you'll just have to go "back" and re-do the content that got them "dead" in the first place and choose a different path to make them "alive" now so that you'll be able to interact with them for this purpose.

Now imagine that this kind of "oops" moment isn't necessarily a "one off" kind of thing, but something that is deliberately DESIGNED to not only be *possible* but something that it's incumbent upon the Player to "do something about it" on their own if they're actually that motivated about it. Net result? Not only might the Contact "tree" be subject to ... pruning ... but also the possible range of Missions that your PC can do/accomplish at any given time, simply due to ... shall we say ... [i]conflicts[/i] ... that might occur between what you WANT and what you NEED in order to accomplish a particular goal.

In other words, you might have to take a "long way round" to accomplish something by ([url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjK9GJMBpt0]Quantum Leap[/url] style) "putting right what once went wrong" ... or at least "wrong" for what you're *currently* trying to do [i]by replaying content you've played before and choosing a different outcome[/i].

[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
In the effort of transparancy

In the effort of transparancy, this topic was broached internally multiple times (different people involved) and much of what has been brought up in this thread is like covering old ground for me. That being said, don't get too caught up on the concept of contact forwarding, for while it will happen, missions may not be necessarily follow a straight path of talk to named npc A the. Get sent to named npc B, etc...

That mold will be broken plenty of times as we define a "contact" less as a named npc and more of along the lines of a mission key. Anything can be a "contact" in this sense. It is part of our emphasis on player agency provided in the example from the KS update.

Further more, not only does what you've done for any particular contact matter (in the sense of say a named npc contact) but what your faction rating may be. A player could have done other missions that also provided them with some amount of positive faction rating indirectly (or directly depending on how the pc got involved) and suddenly, there is a person willing to talk to you that wouldn't before. Or your old acquaintance now has more information to give you.

Reynne is close to the mark in detail by what I've referenced by saying "a more robust flashback system".

Our comp team has been very, very busy in setting up so very much of these possibilities which leaves the burden on rech teams to provide all the tools to get all their hard work into the game and make sure it all flows along smoothly.

[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]

Greyhawk
Greyhawk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/03/2015 - 19:17
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

What if City of Titans was continuously adding content to EVERY neighborhood, rather than just a specific one? I mean, if you want Players to "return" to Low Level Zones, you have to give them a REASON to go there. What sort of reason? Missions. Content. After all, I'm not going to GO to Atlas Park just to GO to Atlas Park. Usually I'd only be going there because I was SENT by the content that I was doing.
The important distinction that I would like everyone to appreciate would be the sense that although it should be quite possible to "do" all of the content within a specific neighborhood of Titan City, there should never be a sense that we ... as Players ... are FINISHED and OVER WITH a particular neighborhood, and that we never need to look back on it. Even something as "simple" and low bar as having the Content Team make it a goal to add 1 Mission to 1 Contact for EACH Neighborhood in the game would create a sense of having the ENTIRE City slowly growing in a sort of living and organic way.

Why have distinctive "low-level" and "high-level" zones at all? Seriously. Although I understand why this has become the norm, the past is past and I think it is time to try something different.

If mission content is primarily instanced, I can see no logical reason why there cannot be sufficient content for every level in every zone. Move the player characters through the zones, but do it in a cyclical manner that keeps them continuously floating through the city. And why discourage a level 1 character from exploring? There is no reason why a level 1 character should be prevented from finding content in every neighborhood. Suggestions, hints, clues, in every zone should be present that unobtrusively indicate where the contacts for the different levels can be found. By the same token, Level 50 characters that drift back into early zones to meet friends, visit markets, find map markers or search for easter eggs, should also find a contact/clue/suggestion/hint that indicates high level content is available should they choose to pursue it.

Cities out in the real world do not have different types of crime in different neighborhoods, just different frequencies of crime. Con artists live in the downtrodden inner city just as often as in the high-flying financial district. Murders occur in suburbs and markets both.

I'd very much like to find individual player characters that range throughout the city right along with player characters that pick a neighborhood they like and "move in" permanently. Diversified content in every zone would enable both players to enjoy the game even more.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
What can I say? Great minds

What can I say? Great minds drink a lake.

No, no, that wasn't it. Was it? Argle bargle gargle. Mmmm ... gargling ...

At any rate, I'm not all that surprised that the rubbish I've been posting in this thread amounts to a "been there, thought of that already" sort of thing for you and your team. It's one of those "well that's how it HAS TO work, if it's going to work at all" kinds of things (there's a LOT of those!). Kind of like saying, how many ways are there to build a raft out of logs? Most people get about this far and call it day:

[img]http://www.artistshelpingchildren.org/crafts-images/vehicles/toy-doll-rafts.png[/img]

I'm only re-inventing the wheel over here because I had no idea you'd done it already, let alone what you're doing with it.

As for getting close to the mark on "a more robust flashback system" ... um ... yay? ^^;

[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Why have distinctive "low-level" and "high-level" zones at all? Seriously. Although I understand why this has become the norm, the past is past and I think it is time to try something different.

I think this is an excellent point, for the bulk of the city! However, there still ought to be 'hazard' areas where it is Un-safe for a young hero to wander... unless they are sidekicked to a character with more appropriate level.

In GW2 high-level characters are auto-exemplared to the level of the area they are in. I don't suggest that for city-zones, but it makes good sense for mission instances. Lower-level characters in high-level zones are insta-kill aggro'ed from twice the usual distance. There is no sidekick system, so partnering with a high-level is no defense.

And experience gain is tied to your level, so there's no power-leveling. The only advantage is higher-level loot drops. This part might be useful in CoT. Honestly, I've found experience-gain in GW2 plenty fast, just from doing regular content.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Riptide
Riptide's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 weeks 1 day ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 07:01
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The issue of scaling content even if limited to instanced missions is that the spawns don't actually scale well to character growth levels. Plenty of people point to the old game's events and say "make the game operate that way", but even this didn't accurately scale well for all levels of play. It also has to do with the sense of growth of the character. At every level of the game (or within brackets of levels) there is a rythm of combat designed with the base difficulty of the encounter. From the spawn to pc ratio, the dps of the typical spawn, to the dps of a character (within bounds) and more. Once you scale everything, the many factors involved go out the window and everything becomes skewed.
At early levels a typical player may have access to a few attacks, lets say 3-4 at the very early levels which are meant to tackle a typical spawn in X amount of time. If that same spawn scales to level 50, where they player now has access to 3 times as many powers, and yet requires just as much, or even nearly as much (let's say for sake of argument a 5 second improvement over time), with all those improvements socketed into powers, all those new powers, and yet base difficulty of the encounter is relatively the same.
Then there is a skew the other way around for character sustainability. The same spawn would have to scale in some form to provide the a relative amount of threat to the PC. Going from level 1 where there are few if any at all protections to level 50 where a character can mave many forms of protections, yet the same spawn results in the same amount of threat to the pc.
Next we would have to content with mission length, map size, non-npc-pawn related obstacles, rewards, faction rep, and on it goes, All which need to scale with the PC level and the factors of time and base difficulty involved. A level 1 map is created with the amount of spawns and time factors that is suitable for what a low level character is capable of while providing both challenge, ability to navigate, and so on. Everything related to how a mission is designed would need to be set up to scale in order to provide parity for all types of classifications and capability.
The development time involved is not insignificant to make sure everything works appropriately (much less approximately). Basically, either the game is designed from the outset to be "without levels" or it is designed with levels and risks out levelled content but provides a sense of growth for the player and what their character is capable of accomplishing.
Izzy hit the mark, it is by far simpler to provide a more robust, ease of access flash-back type system which sees the player character match the level of the instanced missions as well as provide the auto-level of team mates by the team leader's level. This itself isn't "perfect" in terms of PC cabability as even level matching a higher level pc to lower level content still yields the player character an edge in performance compared to a PC that is at the appropriate level to that of the content, but it is by far a more consistant approximation of difficulty scaling than having spawns / maps / obstacles / etc... scale upwards.

I had never considered all that went into scaling content. Guess it's a good thing I'm not a game developer!

I just thought of something I'd like in a Flashback or Exemplar system; the ability to save and load power trays. Just having abilities I couldn't use grayed-out was annoying. I'd often set my trays up completely differently in the early game from what I ended up with at 50
Although, now that I think about it, I guess I could have used some of my empty trays (feeling a bit foolish now).

"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 6 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
I still prefer the HaetMap

I still prefer the HaetMap idea for Procedurally assigning a NPC level range, on the street, Mission Doors/Entrances, etc...

[img]http://acronymonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/landscape_heatmap.jpg[/img]

Plus, Devs dont have to hard code areas.. just update a Posterized Grayscale (or RGBA) map. ;)

Hmm.. you can think of those maps like the ones used to Paint to Shape a Terrain. But do some of those use Vertex Coloring. Not sure. :(

Godling
Godling's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/02/2013 - 13:28
No funky scaling needed.

No funky scaling needed.
The problem with the scaling formula it never took into account the end result as the first result.
It gave damages that used weird mathematical formula that did not apply appropriately for all levels.
What need to be figured out what the average hit points are for all the classes and archetypes.
Then you figure what percent is soposed to be done to the unprotected average hitpoints of a character of an equal level.

Just add powers add an appropriate tiers.
Have generic placeholder power that affects defense, damage reduction, power recharge and damage,if there are no powers fort a specific tier.
Or smaller bonus if there are not enough powers at a particular tier.

[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/18.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
[URL=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-knhgv6lgbrs/UA_riCKAHNI/AAAAAAAATxE/u-sgh23bZhc/s640/wonder_women_by_penichet-d47up0l.jpg [/IMG][/URL]