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Back in CoH, we had 5 types of origins (Natural, Technology, Magic, Science, and Mutant), they didn't affect the way a toon played in any great way, but they were there nonetheless. Will CoT have origins, and if so, will they make any difference in the way a character's powers work or anything?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
There will be a variety of pathways available for characters to choose from....Kickstarter updates # 18 and # 20 give you a basic overview of what is planned for this...
[color=#FF9933]A new beginning, forged from[/color][color=#0000FF][b][i] hope[/color][/b][/i][color=#FF9933] never ending[/color][color=red]!![/color]
[color=red]Beacon of Blazing Faith[/color]--[color=blue]The Titan Legacy[/color]
When CoH first started it was envisioned by the Devs that Origins would play a significant in-game role. But as time went on it was realized that forcing in-game consequences (like Enhancement or mission choices) would be too limiting thus the overall effect of what Origins did was reduced.
I like the more open "Path" system the Devs of CoT are coming up with. If I want to play a "Technology" based character I can always roleplay and dress them appropriately on my own - I don't need the game to arbitrarily limit my overall character concept freedom in those terms.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Ironically, in CoH the character's Origin became less important as the game progressed, not more. At launch your Enhancements were determined by your Origin. By the time the game shutdown they were determined by your bank account! :D :D :D
I sincerely hope that Enhancements are not linked to Origin in any way. I can't see the point in cluttering up the Market or the Vendor lists with countless different names of the same item. Can't tell you how many hours I wasted looking for the correct item in the shop.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I got the feeling that in the last few years of CoH if the Devs had been able to they would have totally "de-linked" Enhancements from having anything to do with Origins. I figure the only thing that stopped them from doing it was that it would have required major under-the-hood changes and caused more problems than just leaving it in place.
Basically I'd be very surprised to see Enhancements linked to Origins in this new game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yeah it was painful, especially in the days before they showed store locations on the map. Having to remember where all the stores (and worse, the single-npc "stores" in Bricks and FF) were located wasted a lot of my time til I got them burned into my brain. And of course having to run to multiple shops to sell stuff I couldn't use because wrong-origin shops gave crappy returns...
I remember reading in another thread that there is no origin mechanically in the game. Your origin is whatever you put in your bio.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
hehe, well, you really did want an energy-dmg origin-attack to ignite your oil slick... ;-)
I remember an interview with Positron where he explained that origins (among other ideas for character progression based on class, etc) were underutilized simply because it required designing game content which only a small percentage of characters would use. For example... you can spend X man hours working on a one hour mission arc which everyone can play... or you can spend 12X man hours working on 12 one hour mission arcs which each class or origin can only plan once. It simply boiled down to efficiency of labor vs. the time&quality of playable content for the largest number of players.
That said, while I appreciate Positron's outlook on that matter, I do have to say that some of the most successful MMO's out there, prove that a different philosophy can be a very good thing, giving different starting areas in WoW made me branch into alts I might not have otherwise made, and in AoC I played some classes just to re-do the Tortage class-specific content and get different insights into the storyline in that city.
For a small upstart mmo, positron's concept is probably most sound though. But it would be of future benefit (post launch) for the makers of CoT to build-in pathways (both in storyline and game mechanics) to exploit class-specific (or origin based) content, even if they don't exploit those pathways at launch.
Is CoT going the enhancement route?
Hope so, because we're already used to doing it that way. Although the origin-store for your type of enhancement was often a true PITA in CoX. Sometimes they were in... inconvenient locations, especially for lowbies.
I remember I used to be in St Martial buying enhancements from the Magic store. This was right next to the hospital, and Arachnos were strolling around all over the place. Crab Spiders would practically dance a jig trying to get my attention while I was buying or selling; they used to literally bump into me! They never attacked though. It was more funny than anything else.
Thankfully CoT has decided to not use an Origin system like CoT. Your character's powers and how she got them are purely a lore and thematic matter for you to decide, rather than trying to shoehorn them in to one of five arbitrary categories that end up making very little difference in the end, and merely served to unnecessarily complicate the game.
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On the other hand SW:TOR I think went too far with the class stories. It deeply divided the player base, and gave you little reason to team.
Personally, if CoX had explored the origin organizations a bit more, I would have been happy. As it was, they sounded important for only about the first 10 levels or so, then largely vanished from the game altogether..
I don't think origins are necessary, simply because the animation variety allows for you to play your character in different ways, and with the way powers are set up now there are already many options to make your character how you want it.
I would think some of the supporters of CoT aren't used to it at all, seeing as not all CoT supporters played CoH. Not to mention, maybe the CoT crew can do something better than enhancements.
Spiritual Successor doesn't mean clone. Also, can they copy the enhancement system if they want to, or can NCSoft stop them from doing that?
The class stories were great. What divided the player base was no sidekicking equivalent, and helping someone on a mission that wasn't yours rewarded you basically no xp.
TOR was basically setup to be run with a team of 4, one of each class and all together, never separate.
i weren't aware of all these 'matters' with choosing you origin, i thought your origin was just chosen to add flavour to your character. . .
Near the end that all they really were Callum. But at the beginning of City of Heroes Origins was thought of having a bigger role. There are people here who were in the city of Heroes original Beta. We talk about any and every aspect of gaming we can. Even if Gold Farmers were truthfully bad (Don't think that on these forums that was way back at the start).
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I remember I think it might have been in the original beta vid with Jack but they mentioned something on how what origin you started with decided your stats and what powers you could choose. Like only mutants could learn fly etc.
i remember that discussion too, blue.... it was shortly before the powerset system was introduced.
originally the game was going to be more 'free form'... with your orgin defining which pieces of the pie you could dip into.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Good thing all that got thrown overboard!
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
meh, its just a different kind of archetyping... just like the final product, over time those pie slices would have gotten bigger and more overlapped.
it would be functionally be no different than choosing a race in a game where elves can be rangers, druids, or rogues, while half-orcs can be rangers, berzerkers, and fighters.
perhaps not ideal for roleplay.... but any roleplayer would just say what their origins were, reguardless of a mechanical system
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Thread, I summon my powers and BRING YOU TO LIFE ONCE MOOOOOORE!
Honestly, the Origin system coulda used a bit more refining but I did love it. IMO, the Origin system could have used a set of missions, like Ancillary Powers got, to give you some amazing abilities that only that Origin could have given you (Along with those other origin powers that you were given... even though many were USELESS). Like Magic would net you the ability to banish enemies in an AoE once every 30 minutes along with a Mage Armor-like spell and perhaps something like Missile Barrage (can't remember the actual name) from DnD. Mutation would get a click that gives a sudden increase in strength, regen, and defense but the Endurance drains VERY quickly, a Nuke-Like AoE, and a "Wheel of Defenses" that randomly picks one type of damage and makes you greatly resistant to it for a minute (Mutating!). And so on and so forth.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
The problem with that, is there are things that just wont make sense for the players concept or the origin. I always thought the mutant origin powers was a "HUH WTF?!" type of ability :p
Science didn't work quite well with the taser either. Natural was a bit easier but I'm sure not everyone wanted their natural to be throwing knives. Superman is natural and he wouldn't throw knives.
Science was a poison dart, wasn't it? Tech had the taser.
Actually these points bring up a quick quibble I always had with those "[url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Origin_Powers]Origin powers[/url]". I always wished those powers were NOT tied to specific Origins but instead were completely selectable and/or optional.
For example I've always enjoyed playing characters who tend to "cross types" Origin-wise: what's wrong with a Magic Origin character using throwing knives as a backup weapon? Or having a Tech-based character also have a minor enough magical ability to be able to throw something like an Apprentice Charm but nothing else magic wise?
By having these powers locked to specific Origins it actually hampered my ability to have the exact types of powers I wanted for my characters. Instead of having one hardwired power per Origin I think this system should be expanded to a pool with say a dozen generic minor powers and then allow each character to pick one of their choice at character creation as a sort of "character concept" power.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
...Damn, Loth makes good sense. I do agree that the minor things (throwing knives, Apprentice Charm, etc.) would be chosen at creation and not be dependent on Origin. But there should be some Payoff for picking that origin in terms of powers that come around Endgame (not exactly when you hit cap, but maybe close?) Maybe they are rewards for special training missions, maybe they just become available. Like a Science themed character wouldn't usually learn how to summon and banish a greater demon Temp-Pet (just spitballing for ideas here) and a Magic themed wouldn't fire an Orbital Cannon... see what I mean? Special powers that make your origin more than just a "Thing you Pick". Never liked choices that had no benefits or consequences. GW2's "Which God Do You Follow?" for Humans is one instance like that. Yes my character is a follower of Balthazar in RP as well, but can't you give him maybe a strength boost or something ingame-wise for it?
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
The only thing wrong with attaching "significant" advantages to Origins (along the lines you’re suggesting) is that there's always the chance that future game changes will make your Origin choices obsolete/bad for some reason. There's also the ever-present problem of making sure that the benefits of one kind of Origin aren't quantitatively better than another. Once the min-maxers figure out which Origin is the "best" in that system then it's no longer a matter of character concept as much as whether you choose to gimp yourself or not. I believe this is much of the reason why the CoH Devs slowly evolved Origins to "not mean too much" as CoH progressed.
Bottomline the only way I see allowing Origins to "mean" something power wise is to allow for Origin respecs. I'd hate to choose an Origin for a character and then years later realize that was a bad choice because the "cool endgame" effect I'd get got nerfed or wasn't ultimately right for my character concept. Conversely as long as Origins have minimal in-game consequences then you don't really need to account for something like Origin respecs.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'd keep origin selection to one's bio. Also we don't know if there will be little powers like Origin powers. Remember, those were basically added in because people couldn't handle not having enough attacks early game, which for CoH wasn't really that long. :p
Yeah it's certainly possible we might not have any "need" for something like the minor Origin Powers in CoT. But I still think this idea could serve as a nice way to further customize/personalize each character without locking them into any hardwired Origin definitions.
For instance maybe they could come up with 5 or 6 equivalents to "Brawl" that would numbers-wise be identical to the classic Brawl power but have radically different animations that would better fit with the character concept. For example they could have a version of "Brawl" that looked more like a very-short ranged mental attack. Somthing like that would probably be more appropriate for a mentalist type character who'd never conceivably use their fists to fight but might pop off a quick psi attack that would have the same net effect of a Brawl.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Not only that but because for some sets, it wasn't the lack of abilities it was to fill in the blanks.
Ironic I know, but when CoXers complain about other games limiting you to just a few abilities early on in the game, my general response is "it is just for a short period of time, level 10 isn't all that far away".
It is *exactly* the same argument from both sides, and in particular for controllers (in my mind that is), the extra ability *DID* help out... especially for those non veterans who didn't have access to sands of mu/black wand/ghost slaying axe.
And all it was, was just one ability to help characters out in the early stages of the game, especially when you didn't have recharge reductions enhancements slotted and/or enough abilities to fill in the chain.
No one's denying that CoH's Origin Powers were mostly just a low-level stop-gap for incomplete attack chains. But referring back to Brand X's example of whether or not Superman would use a throwing knife power I still think the idea could be expanded out a bit more so that whatever minor stop-gap powers CoT provides could be more appropriate to any given character concept.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Aye. I understand how the idea could be harmful to the goal now. Perhaps origin just gives you a few Aesthetics (that have no effect on gameplay) dependent on the origin?
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
From what I understood of and remember from the way the powers will be presented, I'd expect that the way any such power would be presented is as 'Origin Power' and the player would choose its effect and appearance.
I agree with Lothic that trying to lock in origins the way CoH presented them is an unnecessary restriction. Take one dose of [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws]Clarke[/url], apply it to a setting where physics are more of a guideline than a rule, and yeah...
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
In the long run I'm not really sure what we'd gain by having anything being dependent or restricted by Origin. As Brand X said it might as well be a "bio only" roleplay distinction that has no in-game effect.
When you look at fantasy based MMOs most of them are strongly based on your character belonging to certain racial groupings and getting significant bonuses or penalties based on that. In those settings it might make sense to give Orcs a +1 to Strength or Elves a +1 to Dexterity because those races tended to have those kinds of traditional differences in most of the canon/literature about them.
But when it comes to Superhero MMOs the lines get totally blurred when it comes to what they call "Origins". Sure you might have "normal humans" running around but you could also easily have robots, aliens, catgirls, ghosts, gods, Nazis, zombies, magic users, demons and so on none of which really fit into nice neat little racial categories. Even CoH's scheme of Tech, Science, Natural, Magic and Mutant was woefully inadequate to describe all the possible permutations you could come up with for character backgrounds.
This is why I think the Devs CoH made the right move towards making Origins not really be significant game-wise. This kept them from trying to pigeonhole players into categories they would/could never fit into. In the interests of having the most complete character concept freedom as possible I really think CoT needs to continue the tradition of moving away from strict Origin categories or definitions. I have nothing against specialized mission content that would provide unique awards as long as none of it is "off limits" to anyone based on something like Origin.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Something they could do is give a list of origins that give little give or take bonuses.
Maybe allow you to pick the give or take. Like +50% Resist to Psychic but then a -50% Resist to Electric. Can put up a list of -10% intervals and then +10% intervals. Yes, maybe you might get +resists to make up for that -% but it would be give and take still. Would allow people to make their origins more personal.
In theory this is a reasonable superhero-oriented idea. But when the rubber-meets-the-road this game is still going to be a MMO so 98% of the playerbase would either min-max this feature to death regardless of so-called "character concept" or scream bloody murder over any feature that would DARE to impose any kind of disadvantage on them at all (even if it's technically balanced).
Maybe as a compromise the Devs could come up with a big list of all sorts of random yet very minor bonuses (with no disadvantages) and every character could pick one of these at character creation to represent a "token Origin characteristic". It could be explained that all superpowered people have some little extra "quirk" like this that sets them apart from normal people. Yes people would probably still be motivated to min/max these, but at least no one could cry about any disadvantages and if the bonuses were minor enough they wouldn't unbalance anything too much.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I was thinking there'd be a -0%/+0% option as well. And they may also want to do some of certain combos that leave the -Resist easily avoidable, or just not allow them to go as high.
Was thinking, I just didn't like the idea of my android being dealt psychic damage. Never made sense. :p
(sorry my english)... in one of my post i give the following idea about ORIGIN + PATH + RESEARCH :
you choose 2 of the six origin/research paths ( one PRIMARY and one SECUNDARY)
science - Engineering (power armors, robots,circuits, tech weapons, gadegets....)
- Biology (mutations, skin, bones, pets...)
mysticism - Alchemy (magic armors,magic weapons, golens..)
- Sorcery (spells , casts, books..)
training - Body ( skill manuals, stats )
- Mind ( meditation manual, stats)
you can fit any know hero/ villain in these trees... ex : iron man ( power armor) 1st Engineering 2n Mind, Hulk = 1st Biology 2nd Body, batman = 1st Body 2nd Engineering.....
Your Primary Stats will define:
- your PATH :first missions ( ex a Body guy will fight against tugs and gangs (vigilant) , or agaist fighters in dojos..; a mysticism guy will fight secret cults, ghosts, spirits... , a Biology char will fight mutants or mutant control factions...)
- your RESEARCH: research will unlock some costumes, some skill animations, some devices....
you can make inicial research on a common lab, temple, dojo in the begining , but yo need your hideout own in later game
I like Origins they communicate something to those who come across your character they might not realize. I say have the origin but don't lock a character to their origin or lock abilities based on origin.
Issue 0 CoH player barely let my subscription lapse before NC Soft called it quits; my incarnate gear *Sniff*
Global: Chance Jackson; Triumph: Liege Cheetatron X, Fight of Your Life, Down Right Fierce, Infernal Samurai, Time May Change Me etc
Somehow this got missed.
We call them Boosts, but yes, something very similar to enhancements is planned.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I hope the origin system stays--putting aside the 'ingame' things like minor attack powers or whatever, I always thought that 'origin' allowed players to create, quickly, crudely, and vaguely, a short bio/background without even trying.
A lot of times, I found myself writing biographies around the this origin babbles.
If anything, I'd almost like to see it expanded--not in terms of gameplay, but just something that sits on your hero's bio screen. 'Science' Origins, can be basically summed up as either an experiment gone right (like Captain America) or an accident. Natural origins could mean anything from batman to an alien. It'd be neat if we had multiple options when selecting the origin (if, indeed, it ends up in game) so you wouldn't just be a 'Natural' superhero, you'd be a natural alien superhero stranded on earth.
This could have all kinds of ingame non-game play effects, like NPCs remarking that the above Alien superhero is an alien. (ie "I heard that guy came from a whole other planet! wow!")
I think the real strength of the origin system is the ability to immerse the player without even trying right from the get go.
I like the idea of origins, but games seem to try to make them more significant and then back away during beta. I think that happened with CoH, Champions, and DCUO.
I almost always mix origins just because I like that. My science guy gets a magic item (I used Incarnate for that), or my mutant uses technology to boost or focus his powers, etc. I don't think it would be feasible to fit mixed origins into the game, but usually there's a way to do it on your own.
I always thought it was backwards that Dual Origins were LESS powerful than Single Origins. If I'm using mutation AND technology combined, I should be able to enhance more than your puny mutation or tech-only approach :P.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
The only way I see origins as a boon is if, lore wise, it means something.
Are metahumans/mutants seen a certain way by the world we live in? Do the civilians have a fear of Robots for some reason? Are aliens regulated by the government and forced to live in hiding?
If it's purely cosmetic and serves no purpose in the lore then I say let players just write it into their bios manually.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I would actually love something like that. Sadly, then people would pick what they consider the best boon to them and not care or pick the best boon to them and then just say they're something else. :/
That's with the idea that there is some sort of boon (or negative...and I'd be okay with a negative myself).
I also like the idea of Origins being a RP/Lore system adding flavor to the character and comments. But not affecting the game play.
Being able to choose a beginning base power that origins provided in COH is an option as well.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
The main problem with directly connecting origins to game lore (so that origins would "mean" something significant game-wise) is that it would automatically limit/pigeonhole character concepts to whatever the Devs decided they should be.
For instance let's take your example and assume the Devs establish in the CoT game lore that aliens are seen as a threat and are regulated by the government. Maybe you don't have a problem with making a given character be "an alien forced to live in hiding because of the government" and that'd be fine. But what if you wanted to make another alien character who's a public celebrity and is loved and trusted by the government? If the game world's lore is already hardwired to be one that forces aliens into hiding then the game is directly preventing you from creating the exact character you want to play. CoH's strength was that it was flexible enough to allow just about any character concept to be workable without limitation - CoT should not be any less free in this regard.
In the world of pen-n-paper Superhero roleplay it's trivial to come up with "origins" that directly apply to the game world because the players and GMs can easily adapt the situation to whatever makes sense. Unfortunately a computer-based MMO can't readily adapt to random circumstances in the same way. The only real choice that makes sense is for origins in CoT to be more like something you "just write into the bios". I'd rather have that than be forced to make my version of aliens, robots and/or mutants conform to whatever narrow storyline the Devs have established.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I hear and understand and to a point agree with you.
I prefer meat to tofu. I don't like it when lore is tasteless and tastes like what you put into it.. mostly because players can have two different opinions on what turkey tastes like (Turkey =/= Tofurkey).
When I read Marvel I know what a mutant is. I know how they are treated in that universe. Sure there are people who don't fit the theme but that doesn't mean there is not a standard.
When I read M.I.B. I understand that Aliens are still in the closet.
When I read a Sookie Stackhouse novel I understand that different were-clans have different rules. I understand how the Fae and Vampires are EXPECTED to interact.
If your character goes against the mold then it makes that story all the more engaging and gives everyone a perspective to ask "how/why" and makes them MORE special instead of LESS special.
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No to go back and read any of these enriching stories and turn that meat into tofu would simply not be as engaging for me.
That being said.. if the lore feels like too restrictive a provision, then just leave origin out and let players explain it themselves and don't take the time to code it into the game at all.
just my view on it. I get it if others disagree.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I think most people would agree that if you were to take an established, hardwired universe like the Marvel titles or the Sookie Stackhouse novels and tried to "water them down" to some kind of generic, flavorless shells then yes that would be a bad/boring thing.
But the difference between those static universes and a MMO game is that the MMO game is a dynamic venue that's as much "created" by the players (via their characters) as it is by whatever lore/canon the Devs provide. A MMO game is not a closed system completely controlled by one (or a few) authors, it's an open-ended environment that can be become as rich as the players themselves want it to be.
I don't necessarily think a MMO's lore must be (to use your term) 100% tofu. The Devs can obviously embellish the background story of the setting and the NPCs in that setting to a very high level of detail. The only thing I'd suggest is that they not strictly define the lore so much as to force players to "rigidly conform" to precise character concepts. Frankly this is why I would never play a game like DCUO or Marvel Heroes. Not because I hate those universes in particular - I would just hate to have my personal characters be forced into being "mini-Batmans" or "mini-Hulks" without any originality of their own.
GMs and DMs have been creating rich universes for roleplayers to play in for decades without hampering the creativity of the players who've played their games. All I would ask is that the Devs of CoT continue to be mindful of that larger roleplaying heritage and not overly stifle the game with strict "definitions" of what things like aliens, demons, robots, etc. should precisely be in CoT. I think CoH struck a decent balance between "detailed lore" and "player freedom" in this regard. I'd simply ask the CoT Devs follow in the "game lore/mechanics have a minimal impact on origins" paradigm.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I agree with Lothic. As much as I originally wanted more to Origins in CoX, over time I realised how restrictive that would have been.
Now, if groups of citizens or enemies were to react to my character based on actions taken in the game... That's something I could definitely support.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I don't think the origin would pidgeon hole you as stated. However, the game would need little ways around it.
Taking the above stated example, in the Marvel universe, mutants are pretty much hated. However, there are exceptions to that rule. Beast for instance is not hated. Likely because he is/has been an Avenger.
This I think however would only work if they have certain little perks/quirks in character creation. Like Celebrity Advantage! It would override the mutant drawback, maybe not be as awesome as a non mutant Celebrity, but it would overcome and be a bit more than others.
Example Celebrity Advantage can give 50% Boost to Influence Gain. Mutants lose 25% Influence. Mutant with Celebrity Advantage would gain a +25% Boost to Influence Gain.
I agree. And with the Affiliation system planned this is why I think origins with lore would make sense in CoT
The Motorheads would have a natural dislike toward robot/tech characters as they seem to enslave them. If you're a "free robot" they could want to enslave you. Or maybe you are NOT a free Robot and work with/for them willingly. The ePunks would have their own view of "Free tech". And Edentech would "prefer if the technology was environmentally friendly".
TCPD may dislike meta/mutants because of their ability to blatantly of basic rules. Perhaps they have a humans rights agenda under the surface.
Magic characters may hate Aliens because of some ancient text that says .. i dunno.
Point is.. the greater story doesn't need to fit my view of it for my character for my narrative.
My character will NOT fit the mold in many cases. But that's what makes her special! Adversity and conflict are GOOD for story.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
If a game like CoT let its "Lore" have such an active effect on the game as to justify things like +25% Boosts to Influence just because I want my Mutant to "go against the expectations of the game world" then that would just turn into the grossest sandbox for the min/maxers to abuse to the hilt. Everyone and their brother would do everything in their power to exploit it into absurdity. If you guys can't see how badly that would turn out then I'm not sure what else I could say to convince you.
One more time what's wrong with CoT adopting pretty much the same kind of "neutral backstory" that CoH had at least as far as being "detailed" but in a way that wouldn't really force any Origins to have any unavoidable character concept ramifications? I'm fully aware that in the Marvel universe most mutants are feared/hated. But again that's a static story universe that probably wouldn't fit well with an open game like this because it pre-defines a certain Origin with an arbitrary concept handicap. I simply don't want the Lore of CoT to overtly benefit or prejudice ANY Origin because again we all know the typical mindset of most players - you make some Lore/Origin combination the "best" (as far as game mechanics go) and nearly everyone will end up choosing that combo as a mindless default without any real regard for concept at all.
This is not a question of generating "dramatic adversity and conflict" for roleplaying - it's a question of introducing a feature into an MMO game that everyone will abuse/exploit beyond all reasonableness. The Affiliation system can easily work in CoT WITHOUT directly linking Origins/Lore to it at all. The players should always have full freedom to CHOOSE how Affiliations affect them. If you want your Affiliations to "tow the party line" with the game's Lore that's perfectly fine. But if you claim you don't want some of your characters to "fit the mold" then you certainly would not want any hardwired connections between your chosen Origin and how you want your Affiliations to work.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The influence I'm talking about is how the NPC's trust or distrust you. Not a stat altering effect
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Right, I don't have any problem with Affiliations affecting how the various NPC groups trust or distrust you or how that may impact what missions you get or don't get. I just don't want to have make every one of my characters be a "nearsighted techo-geek who hates magic but loves ghosts who worships Swedish pirates who fly in spaceships" because that combination would provide the biggest Origin/Lore "bonus" dictated by the CoT backstory mandated by the Devs.
Origins/Lore should not be the basis of hardwired bonuses or penalties and should have no effect on the types of Affiliations you want to have either. It's up to the player alone to decide if there's any roleplay significance to those relationships.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I like what I am reading here. No origin stores. Where are the kick starter updates?
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
It's right [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/what-you-know-tyrosine-corporation]there[/url]. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
I do like what's been discussed so far, up to and including these posts. However...
As this game, from what I understand, gives you the option to go hero, villain, or in-between--please correct me if I'm wrong--what would necessarily be wrong with an added touch where the origin of your powers might affect how certain groups of NPCs behave around you? Certain enemy groups (who you haven't out-leveled) being more aggressive versus passive when you get too close.
I like the idea of a counter of influence or the like where NPCs are more likely to help you if you have their trust, meaning not just doing the right number of tasks but also meeting the origin requirement for a minor bonus or penalty. For the sake of argument, let's say this is implemented and the NPC needs to be at a +13 to 15 to start their mission chain, and the NPC is a police officer in charge of booking, who has a bad past with Mutants or Aliens (or both). At the same time, the officer has a good one with scientists and cyborgs.
- Science (anywhere from a doctor waving a healing device to someone who drank power-inducing chemicals)
- Technology (cybernetic implants, androids)
- Magic (summoned by magic like a demon or spirit given corporeal form, or casts spells)
- Mutation (Metas, or genetic experiments)
- Alien (doesn't matter how powers came about because their birth is of another world)
In this case, Scientists and Techs get a +3 bonus toward the officer and don't have to work as hard, whereas Aliens and Mutants get a -3 meaning they have to work even harder than even a sorcerer or some person with devil horns (so a stereotypical lawyer starts at a 0).
Meanwhile, there is a faction of enemies in the world with similar prejudices. It takes a -4 or -5 for you to be able to attack them, but a -7 for them to consider attacking first, so long as it's open world (not inside of an instance map) and you're not over-leveled to the point where they'd leave you alone until you attack them. At -15, they attack no matter what. Imagine a common crook who hates Superman so much that, rather than going home and writing an angry comic series where Batman beats up the boy scout, he starts throwing punches against the man of steel.
With how I'm suggesting this, a Mutant or Alien would find a few looters (of the same level) from this faction. The looters attack because they're at a -8. Magic users and their ilk get a pass for being a -5. Scientists and Techs have to work hard to ruffle some feathers (eg., burning faction flags, going into instances to beat up their pals for a mission or two, et cetera,) before they can attack the faction because they're only a -2.
Obviously, if the devs liked this idea enough, they'd tweak the numbers to be more to their liking. Such as having a faction where--with the same applicable beliefs or habits or what have you--the Techs and Scientists are already at a -6 (barely a pass), and everyone else is attacked, though Aliens and Mutants are at a -12 and thus closer to the point of always being attacked.
What do you think?
Also, I like the idea of having a Brawl or Brawl-equivalent depending on what is chosen. Another agreement I have is that it'd be silly for a psychic to throw a punch. So maybe have ten different Brawl/Potshot moves? Obviously five would depend on the five origin types, but rather have a brawling hit for characters who deal in melee, and potshot for ranged. And to add relevance to these attacks for endgame purposes, they can remain zero-cost and low hitting but have their own CD timer (if any) that that characters who want the extra twenty to fifty points of damage (against hundreds or more at level cap) every however many seconds will have that happen. It won't really do much, but it'll appease players with a stronger rotation mindset to a small degree. If they want to act like elitist pigs who won't play with anyone who doesn't crank out that extra 3 dps, then let it be on them. The rest of us will just have fun and be glad something is there.
Just a couple thoughts on this topic I thought I'd share. ^_^
The problem is that such a system could never account for player creativity. What if the character is an alien brought to Earth by magic? What if the character is a demon summoned to earth by technology? What if the character is a mutant who augments their abilities with technology? What if the character is a mutant human who looks like an alien freak? What if the character is a demon from an alien world brought to Earth during a science experiment gone horribly wrong, wears powered armor to fight and, by some strange chance, appears to be mostly human? Do all the factions magically know that the character is an alien? A demon? That they arrived on earth by dint of science? Or do they all orient themselves on the "obviously" technological armor?
What if the player wants the character to have a secret, true origin that only a few people know and tells everyone else that they obtained their power by some other means?
What if my character's origin is, "I dunno. I don't want to deal with origins. Leave me alone."
Why limit the full breadth of player creativity for some trivial bonuses or penalties?
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
The only way I might be in favor of something like this would be that there should never be any origin/influence scenarios that would turn out to make something absolutely impossible to achieve just because you arbitrarily chose to have a certain origin at character creation.
For instance let's say there's a faction out there that really hates Magic. That (logically) should make it hard for a Magic origin character to become friendly with them. But let's say (for whatever reason) a Magic-based character really wants to gain the trust of the Magic-hating group. It might be very hard to do and/or take a long time to do it but eventually it should be possible regardless. From an RP point of view you could say that you've either bent-over-backwards to prove yourself to the group or maybe you've secretly done something sneaky to make the group believe there's nothing magical about you - that meta "explanation" can be left up to the character to decide.
The key point here is that while origins might make things easier or harder to do they should never make any particular situation completely impossible or outright prevent access to anything. The entire basis behind stories like [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dances_with_Wolves]Dances With Wolves[/url] hinges on the idea of two factions that normally would hate each other coming together to trust each other - the same unlikely relationships ought to be possible in CoT.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The only quibble I have here is the idea that five of your ten "generic Brawl" powers would be described as "origin based". I'd prefer something like this to be completely 100% generic and allow the player to have total freedom as to what they want to use. Now naturally out of this pool of powers one could be like a "Magic Missile" and another could be like a "Taser Gun" so clearly if you wanted to follow what you'd think would make sense for say a Magic or Tech origin character you'd be able to do that. But with this total freedom to choose nothing should stop the Magic guy from having a "Backup Revolver" or the Natural guy from using some kind of mutant acid-blood sprayer or some minor level telekinetic pushback power or some such.
Character powers should never be locked or limited only to hardwired origin choices, period. Players should be able to choose if they want to strictly follow the dictates of an origin or not.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
And with Aesthetic Decoupling, there's no performance difference between a Wand of Magic Missiles and a Generic Small Revolver # 2, so why should you be limited on which animation you use?
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Exactly. The pool of minor powers we're talking about could be further customized depending on how extensive the Aesthetic Decoupling is. The Devs might be able to come up with say 8 or 10 basic powers (say a few minor melee attacks, a few minor ranged attacks and a few minor buff/debuff powers) and then let you pick one as your "baseline power" and customize its appearance accordingly. This way you don't have to be stuck with a locked-in "origin" power that likely doesn''t fit your character's concept anyway.
This may even be an alternative for the universal "Brawl" power that everyone gets by default - why Brawl if your character might naturally do something else as a trivial last-resort attack?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The updates made during the Kickstarter are on the Kickstarter page, not on this site. Since then we post on both - everyone who contributed should get an email link to the KS posting, I know I do.
If you're wanting to look up some old ones, I recommend this link.
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/kickstarter-update-reference-list
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
When I asked this question a while back, many gave some really good answers as to "origins" as well as the kickstarter history and left me with the impression( and watching a PS Network show) that the universe was similar to the Michael Bendis's show "Powers" and that it left any back story of the character open to the player. So things like mutants( obvious favorite class btw) were almost non existent as a separate species since anyone can get "powers" from any source just like magic users.
All 4 Mutants
Evolution is key. And mutants are key.
I think Origins are another one of those, do it right or don't do it at all" situations. Either do origins and have it encompass how your character will progress through the story and effects your powers in some shape or form.
If it's just there to be a placeholder like in CoX then I can definitely do without them.
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
My origin is Mine! I will fold, spindle, melt, weld, and catabolize it however I want to! I do not want any... anything to impose a limit on my creativity. I will use the ancient science of natural mutant technology magic to blow your mind! Or, just to tell the story the way I want to. You can keep your midichlorians to yourself, thanks, I don't need any.
Be Well!
Fireheart
The reason origins eventually became nothing more than a "placeholder" in CoH is that the Devs of that game came to understand that trying to piegeonhole every character into hardwired origin classifications was a fundamental mistake in the first place. Once they realized their mistake they did everything they could to dismantle any built-in limitations/restrictions the game originally imposed due to the origin system.
As Fireheart rightly implied there's nothing wrong with the player self-classifying their own characters' "origins" as whatever they want. But as soon as you structure a game like CoH (or CoT) into predefined character concept tracks then not only do you stifle creativity but you automatically limit what content any given character can enjoy.
I wouldn't mind if there are NPC elements in CoT that are described as being "magical" or "tech" based. Certainly there could even be whole factions that embody those things. But there should be nothing in terms of missions or enhancements that would force any of my characters to choose any one of these things over the other unless I want it. I want to be able to play a mutant that uses magic to teleport back to his secret lair where he uses his super-computer to create his super-vitamin X that gives him super powers. If I had to choose only ONE origin for the character I just described then it wouldn't really be possible.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
One of the things I like about modern comics is that affiliations come with a sociopolitical context.
If you're a Mutant in the Marvel Universe you can expect society to treat you one way and create subcultures based on how you fit into the greater world and universe.
What are the Kree without context? Just aliens? boring. The Shi'Ar.. what does it mean to be Kryptonian or from Mars...
These things are what make lore fun for me yet so many people find it a hinderance.. as though their character cannot be unique even if they go with the grain. But I don't see the reasoning that a player's character couldn't be say a Mutant AND a member of an anti-mutant villain group.
I am against generalizing lore because it's bad storytelling and for no other reason.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
The key is that as long as a game like CoT doesn't absolutely restrict something like that then we'll be fine. If CoT relies too heavily on the "labels" of origin designation then it runs the risk of preventing players from exploring unusual concept scenarios.
I could easily see a simpleminded implementation where a Dev might make it so that an "anti-mutant villain group" would not allow a "mutant" to join it based on arbitrary black-n-white logic. While normally it might be very hard for a mutant to weasel their way into such a group I maintain it should be possible regardless if it seems "reasonable" or "logical". Perhaps the character considers it a challenge to keep their mutation secret and be accepted by people who would normally despise him/her. Perhaps the character doesn't even realize they are a mutant! There are all sorts of interesting reasons why a character might choose to "play against type" like that.
This is why I'm hoping CoT will do its best not to limit/restrict our choices based on something like origin labeling. CoT can have the concept of "origins" in the game - just make them something that cannot impede us in any way.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I also get to create my old pnp character (which was made to intentionally 'mess with and abuse' an origin's rule system) who was a soul-powered-cybernetically enhanced, genetically modified human mutant alien hybrid birthed in an experiment gone awry.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
That's cool. For what it's worth I'm not strictly against the idea of using an origin system in games like these - if nothing else they do help players focus their character ideas and develop backstories for roleplay purposes. I'm just stressing that I don't want them to be a restrictive construct that hardwires us into limited tracks of thinking. I think you get that.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
sounds like my ex...
I do get it. The very reason I made that particular character was; a) it was part of testing the game system and I used the system as it existed to "break" char-gen (and game balance, see b), and b) it allowed me to leverage the numbers (min-maxing) for char gen increasing the chances of having a higher than average starting character. Which of course skewed the encounter system...
There have been plenty of good reasons pointed out for not delving into an origin-like system for char-gen in this game within this thread that don't need repeating. The point is rather moot as it was decided long ago to do away with the origin system.
I believe the faction system could act as a cover for any form of biases npcs may have toward player characters, or even from one npc group to the other without delving into any murky territory of racial, gender, cultural, or origin biases. If anything, any type of "how this power works" is more left up to the player, the game world will provide in some parts, basic themes for power improvements (most likely crafting). Anything outside of that will most likely be few and far in between other than any stated lore regarding how an npc (individual or faction) has their particular powers.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Mmm, factions would be very cool. Particularly if they're shades of gray. I've always liked the idea of a faction that believes that powered individuals should be the upper class, but that being the upper class means taking care of the lower, which can be twisted in all sorts of delicious ways.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
So your basic run-of-the-mill MFing Warshade ... who is actually a Nictus trapped in a [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Council/Vampyri]Vampyri[/url] ... going through a Really Bad Hair Day™.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Then you'd be in the Shin Megami Tensei world.
...Or DOOM.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]