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Opinions on One Time Events and Permanent Player Character Death

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Deathwatch101
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Opinions on One Time Events and Permanent Player Character Death

So I kind of feel that I want to discuss and get everyone's opinion on One Time Events and what you can do with them for a game -

Now in most games One Time Events go a bit sideways due to the idea of clustering everything into one zone, this could be seen when guild wars 2 did the event with the giant crab things and the servers went to hell with the number of players just trying to cluster into one zone for the rewards of an event that was being crammed into a very short amount of time.
However, these events are something that makes a game special. The stories that happen during these events aren't something that could happen in someone that gets repeated every day in-game. For example, we could see an Invasion by an extra planar or alien force, this would be city wide and could be something with many micro-events scattered everywhere to reach the best outcome players need to avoid say going just for the massive rift or spaceship but rather spread out across the ground and do the job to save the city.

Now as we are using a Single Shard with it creating mirror shards if the population is to high (I think thats close enough to being correct in terms) The issue you run into is that the event can occur differently, so it would be how does a dev team pull off a big event when its a single world that the ending effects, You could make it so different micro events (none the same in terms of location) occur on each shard and thusly could scale to the population or have a set scale. Though you could always have a few zones that force you into a (area only shard ?????).

Do you think its worth the risk of One time events guys ?

Furthermore, It could be a very interesting plot point to run with if you tell players in advance that they could expect the choice to kill off their characters (lets say its in exchange for some sort of epic story reward, maybe you get your own little 2 inch plaque for getting yourself killed blowing up a ship or something)

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Events like that are easy to

Events like that are easy to figure out. Have it based on score. Aliens invade! After the score ticks to whatever stage two happens or you win or something, rewards to all who participated.

As for permanent character death? I'd personally prefer that if my character dies it'd be in an RP thing not a game mechanic thing.

Granted I do like the idea of rewards being like a plaque in the game world. Though in this case I'd probably give them to top contributors.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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My simple stand on the matter

My simple stand on the matter is that I categorically dislike the idea of "one-time" events in MMOs. I have no problem with things that happen "very rarely" (like annual holiday events that obviously repeat once a year) or even things that happen randomly (like invasion events that may only happen say a few times per month) but no matter how rare or how periodic things repeat I want them to -repeat- at some point.

I just don't like all the angst involved with people who get shut out from doing something (for whatever reason) and then never having another chance to do it. That kind of thing tends to lead to divided playerbases and elitist mindsets where those who managed to partake in the one-time event can forever lord it over people who again (for whatever reason) couldn't attend. There's enough drama in real life and I'd rather not create more of it in a gaming environment like this.

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Deathwatch101
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Events like that are easy to figure out. Have it based on score. Aliens invade! After the score ticks to whatever stage two happens or you win or something, rewards to all who participated.
As for permanent character death? I'd personally prefer that if my character dies it'd be in an RP thing not a game mechanic thing.
Granted I do like the idea of rewards being like a plaque in the game world. Though in this case I'd probably give them to top contributors.

The way I would personally prefer to see perma character death would be an event popup that either asks for someone to volunteer to say detonate a device etc or to hold the line etc. These I would dream are basicly you fighting until you die or you by some miracle survive it type hardness. It would be the player choice to volunteer or click yes.

This way it allows the dev's to also put something on the table, for example it might be ok the character survives but now the dev's use them as an NPC (maybe let you roleplay them for events where they need to npc's rped or played) this way they can get interesting or different characters they hadn't considered in their npc pool etc and its a cool way a player could view a legacy.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

My simple stand on the matter is that I categorically dislike the idea of "one-time" events in MMOs. I have no problem with things that happen "very rarely" (like annual holiday events that obviously repeat once a year) or even things that happen randomly (like invasion events that may only happen say a few times per month) but no matter how rare or how periodic things repeat I want them to -repeat- at some point.
I just don't like all the angst involved with people who get shut out from doing something (for whatever reason) and then never having another chance to do it. That kind of thing tends to lead to divided playerbases and elitist mindsets where those who managed to partake in the one-time event can forever lord it over people who again (for whatever reason) couldn't attend. There's enough drama in real life and I'd rather not create more of it in a gaming environment like this.

Sort of why I believe in those one time events that literally last one or two weeks in terms of content, micro events everywhere with the occassional big bad spawn spread over that period.

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Oh. I was thinking that it

Oh. I was thinking that it was events in general for some reason. Or I didn't quite grasp the one-time part of it some how.

Yeah, no, having an event be a once and once only ever event would suck, there'd probably be rewards and whatnot no one else could ever get. Seems to close to pre-order culture to me.

The only event that could/should be a once only and ever would be an event before the shut down of the whole thing. That'd be a way to go.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Oh. I was thinking that it was events in general for some reason. Or I didn't quite grasp the one-time part of it some how.
Yeah, no, having an event be a once and once only ever event would suck, there'd probably be rewards and whatnot no one else could ever get. Seems to close to pre-order culture to me.
The only event that could/should be a once only and ever would be an event before the shut down of the whole thing. That'd be a way to go.

How would you look to progress a story if there wasn't one time events though ? How can something happen if it literally gets spam repeated every few weeks etc ? Now you could always put something that was say a "simulation" of big bad boss fights etc as a "training" feature that lets you say get the badges you might miss etc.

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Sometimes you just need to

Sometimes you just need to accept things as a convention of the genre or medium. How did so many people defeat and jail FrostFire in CoH during the run of a day? It's just something that needs to happen to facilitate the game/fun.

And making an event happen only once ever isn't really conducive to the fun of the many.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Lothic
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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Lothic wrote:
My simple stand on the matter is that I categorically dislike the idea of "one-time" events in MMOs. I have no problem with things that happen "very rarely" (like annual holiday events that obviously repeat once a year) or even things that happen randomly (like invasion events that may only happen say a few times per month) but no matter how rare or how periodic things repeat I want them to -repeat- at some point.
I just don't like all the angst involved with people who get shut out from doing something (for whatever reason) and then never having another chance to do it. That kind of thing tends to lead to divided playerbases and elitist mindsets where those who managed to partake in the one-time event can forever lord it over people who again (for whatever reason) couldn't attend. There's enough drama in real life and I'd rather not create more of it in a gaming environment like this.
Sort of why I believe in those one time events that literally last one or two weeks in terms of content, micro events everywhere with the occassional big bad spawn spread over that period.

Actually "one time events that literally last one or two weeks" are still not good enough for me.

I'll be a bit selfish/personal here by revealing that IRL I work aboard a ship at sea for several months of any given year. I'll go out for 4 to 6 weeks at a time and it all adds up to the multiple months per year. Based on the nature of my work at sea I strictly can't play -any- online game during these trips. So for me if there's ever a "one time event" there's a decent chance I'd miss it even if it lasted for a full month. As long as any event repeats itself there's a reasonable chance if I miss it one time I can catch it the next.

Again I know that's somewhat selfish and self-serving but I'm sure there are other players out there who might have real life commitments that would screw with their ability to catch a "one-time" event as well.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Sometimes you just need to accept things as a convention of the genre or medium. How did so many people defeat and jail FrostFire in CoH during the run of a day? It's just something that needs to happen to facilitate the game/fun.
And making an event happen only once ever isn't really conducive to the fun of the many.

Who was a mission boss not an Event, they are two very different things. Advancing a world story is something that can't exactly be done in any sensible way by having things from said story constantly reappear otherwise you'll end up with people standing at a spot waiting for 13:03 for when the next tick for the boss to appear (see guild wars 2). Now in some cases that is fine for example but you can't have everything that continues a world story constantly in flux.

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Big evil organization is

Big evil organization is stepping up their game as such frequent attacks to the city happen. Maybe a new leader is in charge and the game gave the players a new taskforce/raid. There. World changed and a re-occuring event can happen indefinitely.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
My simple stand on the matter is that I categorically dislike the idea of "one-time" events in MMOs. I have no problem with things that happen "very rarely" (like annual holiday events that obviously repeat once a year) or even things that happen randomly (like invasion events that may only happen say a few times per month) but no matter how rare or how periodic things repeat I want them to -repeat- at some point.
I just don't like all the angst involved with people who get shut out from doing something (for whatever reason) and then never having another chance to do it. That kind of thing tends to lead to divided playerbases and elitist mindsets where those who managed to partake in the one-time event can forever lord it over people who again (for whatever reason) couldn't attend. There's enough drama in real life and I'd rather not create more of it in a gaming environment like this.

Sort of why I believe in those one time events that literally last one or two weeks in terms of content, micro events everywhere with the occassional big bad spawn spread over that period.
Actually "one time events that literally last one or two weeks" are still not good enough for me.
I'll be a bit selfish/personal here by revealing that IRL I work aboard a ship at sea for several months of any given year. I'll go out for 4 to 6 weeks at a time and it all adds up to the multiple months per year. Based on the nature of my work at sea I strictly can't play -any- online game during these trips. So for me if there's ever a "one time event" there's a decent chance I'd miss it even if it lasted for a full month. As long as any event repeats itself there's a decent chance if I miss it one time I can catch it the next.

Heck, its ok to be selfish everyone is at some point or another. Though that could be mostly resolved by having a holo-lounge type thing that you can then do like a Big Bad "simulation" encounter in terms of background/lore as a way to train those that missed such a fight on what to expect if something like that ever happened again.

If however, you have an alien invasion every week why isn't the city covered in anti-space weaponry to destroy these things before they even reach atmosphere etc or how the heck is everyone even still alive and everything rebuilt etc.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Big evil organization is stepping up their game as such frequent attacks to the city happen. Maybe a new leader is in charge and the game gave the players a new taskforce/raid. There. World changed and a re-occuring event can happen indefinitely.

But those are micro events, those aren't something like an invasion that sprawls over weeks. What you are literally saying is lets have the guys on the street corners in CoH etc thats not an event thats literally just a spawn.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

If however, you have an alien invasion every week why isn't the city covered in anti-space weaponry to destroy these things before they even reach atmosphere etc or how the heck is everyone even still alive and everything rebuilt etc.

If you have an epic one-time event so massive why isn't the city completely destroyed and the game shut down to account for that? I suppose you can say that happened to CoH once... but the outcome wasn't terribly "well-received" by most of us involved. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

My simple stand on the matter is that I categorically dislike the idea of "one-time" events in MMOs. I have no problem with things that happen "very rarely" (like annual holiday events that obviously repeat once a year) or even things that happen randomly (like invasion events that may only happen say a few times per month) but no matter how rare or how periodic things repeat I want them to -repeat- at some point.
I just don't like all the angst involved with people who get shut out from doing something (for whatever reason) and then never having another chance to do it. That kind of thing tends to lead to divided playerbases and elitist mindsets where those who managed to partake in the one-time event can forever lord it over people who again (for whatever reason) couldn't attend. There's enough drama in real life and I'd rather not create more of it in a gaming environment like this.

My stand is that I like one-time events. I like the shared experience it gives to the people who actually did participate in it. Read to the stories in these forums of the people who partook in bringing down a Rikti mothership. Do I wish I had been there with them? you betcha. If the devs had given them a one-time reward or badge for it before they made it impossible, would I be jealous of them? you betcha. But would I want to take that special accomplishment from them? NO WAY! And if everyone ended up taking down the Rikti motherships to get the badge, it would not have been nearly as special. That's the whole point. Some people out there are afraid of creating elitists. I say so what? I have no illusions that I will change anyone's mind, so debate is not intended here. I just don't want the opinions of those against one-time content to stand silently without a dissenting opinion also expressed.

So let me say it again:
I am all for unique rewards for unique content. I don't like the idea that everyone should get a participation trophy. I like the pride that comes with having something unique, even if it is just a story to tell. It also drives participation because there is a good chance you won't see this content again.

But I also realize that if the one-time events always happen on the same day of the week or the same time of day, then a segment of the population is completely cut off. That is poor dame design/game management. I've played in an Oceania guild and there were so many events timed for the North American prime time that they just could not participate in. That was frustrating but the game publishers didn't care about that demographic.

So if one-time events do occur, they should either be persistant for all time zones, or repeated enough so that people who work weekends, people who work nights, and people all over the globe have a chance over the course of several months to all be able to say they have completed a similar unique event.

This also give people who missed it the first time to arrange an opportunity to hit it again before it leaves earth orbit.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

My stand is that I like one-time events.

My only response to this is what I said in post #9 above. I suppose we'll just have to "agree to disagree" on this one...

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Its why ive always favoured

Its why ive always favoured the idea of announcing them in advance and having them sprawl over a long period with events occuring at a spread of times to hit the demographics of other zones and work styles etc.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:
Big evil organization is stepping up their game as such frequent attacks to the city happen. Maybe a new leader is in charge and the game gave the players a new taskforce/raid. There. World changed and a re-occuring event can happen indefinitely.
But those are micro events, those aren't something like an invasion that sprawls over weeks. What you are literally saying is lets have the guys on the street corners in CoH etc thats not an event thats literally just a spawn.

So a large area wide period of time where bad guys who aren't usually in a zone showing up and dropping from like helicopters or whatever (kinda like the rikti invasion stuff) isn't an event? In that case what counts as an event?

Also super hero comics their events usually tend to repeat (the various DC crisis es, civil war II, secret war II, etc.) So why should a super hero game be any different?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Events that are only supposed

Events that are only supposed to happen within a (very specific) time frame have problems, as far as I'm concerned. For one thing, they're anti-casual Player. If I'm not playing that hour/day/week/month then I miss out completely and it's see you again never next one off event.

The second problem is that it's a not inconsequential amount of development resources (mainly time and manpower) to create these events and then ... not use them again ... in most cases for another YEAR, in the case of seasonal events.

That said, I'm much happier with seeing Events that occur "every now and then" such as the Paladin of King's Row, or Lusca, or The Ghost Ship passing through Talos Island or Independence Port. Those are events that are designed to be repeated, but infrequently occurring, meaning that if you miss THIS time there will be a NEXT time for you to catch it later.

Likewise, I'm perfectly happy with having seemingly unrelated occurrences trigger other in-game Events. Stuff like completing a Lady Grey Task Force prompting a Rikti Invasion in some random zone of Paragon City AND the Rogue Isles. That was a very clever bit of linking, in which Events (Rikti Invasion) occurred as a result of Player actions (completing the LGTF).


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I don't particular care for

I don't particular care for one-time events in the sense that there's little return on investment. Why have the devs create an event that is only going to be done once? Seems like their efforts could be directed to content that could be repeated. Additionally, perma-death? Never been a fan of it.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

My simple stand on the matter is that I categorically dislike the idea of "one-time" events in MMOs. I have no problem with things that happen "very rarely" (like annual holiday events that obviously repeat once a year) or even things that happen randomly (like invasion events that may only happen say a few times per month) but no matter how rare or how periodic things repeat I want them to -repeat- at some point.

Agreed 100%. Seasonal events? Sure. Infrequent events - cool. But "one and done" content? No thanks. Some games have tried this, and players continually pester the devs to re-introduce the content down the road. Sometimes this pestering works - STO is one example in some ways.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I don't particular care for one-time events in the sense that there's little return on investment. Why have the devs create an event that is only going to be done once? Seems like their efforts could be directed to content that could be repeated.

Exactly. One-offs are a waste of resources.

Quote:

Additionally, perma-death? Never been a fan of it.

The good thing - perma-death IS possible in CoT. Once you are defeated, immediately delete the character ;^p

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I'm with most of the others.

I'm with most of the others. If I had to choose between a one-time event and something that I could experience at any time, with any or all of my characters, then I'd definitely prefer the latter. Make it a challenge to figure out what you can do in the game that would be unique rather than hoping for the devs to hand it to you.

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For the reasons others have

For the reasons others have stated, the only one-time events I can really support are those which:

1. grant no exclusive rewards to the participants besides the experience of participating and maybe a congratulations on the forums to a winning team/player. A temporary server-wide buff as a reward is fine as it is not exclusive.
2. are organized and conducted entirely by players or devs acting as "game masters" and are therefore a sort of performance that cannot be duplicated anyway.

Good examples are costume contests, roleplay events, in-game ceremonies to introduce new content, developers joining random taskforces or challenging players to a scavenger hunt...

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Agreed on not having a one

Agreed on not having a one-time event. I'm okay with a one-time, never to be had again badge, but an event is just to much resources to never be used again, that sounds bad.

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I can remember only 1 one

I can remember only 1 one-time event in city of heroes. But it was story driven. I was somewhat new to the game still learning to play when I saw groups of Council and 5th column mobs spawning in Kings Row fighting each other... As anyone who played CoH for years knows, this initiated the exit of the 5th column from the game for years with the council taking over 5th column bases, spawn locations etc... Unless the one-time event is in this vein, it would be a waste of the effort. Perma-death would mean perma-exit from this game for me.

RIP City of Heroes

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One-time events: Old Cryptic

One-time events: Old Cryptic sometimes used one-timers to introduce new villain factions, like the Shadow Shard and the Council. I don't remember if they had special badges for those events, but for the most part, it was "stuff that will regularly spawn in instances or high-level zones are spawning all over town for a week or two". I could live with that. The more character-bound stuff you attach, though, the less fair it becomes. (Personally, I missed the Council overthrowing the 5th Column because of a wonky motherboard and a lack of cash to replace it.)

Permadeath: Glitches. Bugs. Lag. (Looking at you, Diablo III.) A random PhysX-driven rock from a trap rolls over the player character's toe when they only have 1HP. (Looking at you, Skyrim.) There are too many cheap, dumb, unfair ways for a power fantasy character to die in a video game to make permadeath viable as an MMO game mechanic. Save it for RP, I say.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

perma-death IS possible in CoT. Once you are defeated, immediately delete the character ;^p

I was going to mention this, but Interdictor beat me to it.


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The only perma-deaths should

The only perma-deaths should be in PvP!

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I dislike most one-shot

I dislike most one-shot events because I tend to play a fair number of alts, and I don't want to have one "miss the experience". This is especially true of one-timers that drop specific items that one could not get otherwise. I don't like missing something just because I don't want to slog several characters through the same thing over and over during a limited time frame - those make a game experience tend more towards the tedious than the enjoyable.

I do not play games where there is permanent death on any character I have worked to develop, and I think that is an utterly horrible idea.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Dark Ether is exactly right.

Dark Ether is exactly right. Time limited events, even if they're seasonal, can pretty quickly turn into "onerous obligations" when you start adding up the alts.

Star Trek Online has an event that they open every Halloween and Friday the 13th ... so usually on 2-3 times a year ... of one of the earliest "spooky" UGC missions that got created and adopted to make an "official" part of the game. It's just a single mission, not all that difficult to do (once you've gotten yourself geared up for ground) and the most hazardous thing about it is that there's "confuse gas" in it that can mess up your targeting for you. Do it during the event (which basically lasts "a day" and is posted on the Calendar of coming events in advance) and you'll get a (clone!) Duty Officer to add to your crew roster ... and because the Duty Officer is a clone (it even puts the word clone in the name) you can run the event multiple times to get multiple copies of this Duty Officer.

The downside is that every time this event comes around, there's a feeling of "obligation" of needing to go out and run this one mission on EVERY captain you have to get the Duty Officer on all of your captains.

Once is fine.
Twice is tedious.
Three times is a chore.
Four times is punishment.
Five times is "Well I'm glad I don't have to do that again."

And that's just doing it on a bunch of alts, one after another, during the day of the event. Because it's time limited the way it is, you feel like you Have To Do It™ or you're missing out on the (mostly) free reward which is actually useful without being the absolute best possible rarity (the Duty Officer is a blue instead of a purple). And the more alts you've got, the more "costly" the obligation to getting it done.

Even for something that only takes 10 minutes to do ... run through 5 alts and ... well there just went an hour of your life. And for what? You did it for the reward, yes ... but you also HAD TO do it "now" rather than being able to do it later or at another time, because it's going to be a LONG time before the event comes back around again.

I basically had the same problem with seasonal events in City of Heroes, where the more alts I had the more "costly" it was to try and "do all the things" for any seasonal event. Just getting all the Trick or Treat badges on all my characters could take WEEKS of doing nothing but knocking on doors.


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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

How would you look to progress a story if there wasn't one time events though ? How can something happen if it literally gets spam repeated every few weeks etc ? Now you could always put something that was say a "simulation" of big bad boss fights etc as a "training" feature that lets you say get the badges you might miss etc.

You progress the story the same way you would any other story in an MMO. By gradually introducing new story elements as the character, or in this case the game it self, progresses.
New zones with new stories. New arcs with new foes. New trials with new challenges. New new with new new.

The only time I could see a one time event being a good idea (and even then I am hesitant) is when the devs are revamping some large aspect of the game. If they have decided to removed or change a foe group, removing or changing an existing location or some other major game change like that. Keep in mind that this one time event would not be the purpose of the change, it's something the devs feel necessary to change and decided to include it in the story. In other words the change is going to happen regardless of the story so they make a big deal out of it. Even then I am not sure the event needs be a one time deal. The story could be written to be repeatable so that those who missed it could still enjoy it years later.

Regardless, I would not want any event specific rewards to be a part of the event (including achievements/badges) that players could not get elsewhere. I am ok with the rewards being easier to obtain during this special case event, but absolutely no permanent reward lockouts.

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

For the reasons others have stated, the only one-time events I can really support are those which:
1. grant no exclusive rewards to the participants besides the experience of participating and maybe a congratulations on the forums to a winning team/player. A temporary server-wide buff as a reward is fine as it is not exclusive.
2. are organized and conducted entirely by players or devs acting as "game masters" and are therefore a sort of performance that cannot be duplicated anyway.
Good examples are costume contests, roleplay events, in-game ceremonies to introduce new content, developers joining random taskforces or challenging players to a scavenger hunt...

Sure there are times when "one-time" events are by their very nature impossible to repeat (i.e. like the introduction of new game content) so there's no way around that. Also any "gatherings" by players/GM are likely to be organic in nature so clearly it'd be hard to duplicate them 100%.

So strictly speaking I guess the thing I would mainly be concerned about regarding one-time events would be whether there were any permanent one-time rewards/souvenirs related to a one-time event. Things like badges, permanent titles or items that would be impossible to find/buy/earn anywhere else would be something I would hope games like CoT will avoid like the plague.

Brand X wrote:

Agreed on not having a one-time event. I'm okay with a one-time, never to be had again badge, but an event is just to much resources to never be used again, that sounds bad.

As a long time badger in CoH the idea of introducing random extra "one-time, never to be had again badge(s)" would be like nails on a chalkboard at the very least.

Just about the only one-time badges CoH forced on us (if you don't count the Passport badge) were the anniversary badges and even they were thankfully available for a full month at a time. Due to my unique work schedule I mentioned earlier in this thread I almost missed a couple of those with having just a few days to spare. So my ideal game would NOT even have anniversary badges like CoH's much less any other "one-time only badge".

TBH, I actually hate the idea of the "Kickstarter" and so-called "11th Anniversary" badges we were given by MWM a few years ago. Sure I'm glad I was simply dumb-lucky enough to be around and aware of them to get them but it's going to royally suck for anybody who starts this game fresh in a year or so learning that they are already going to be SOL two badges they probably never knew/heard about. It was just a very bad idea, period.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Just about the only one-time badges CoH forced on us (if you don't count the Passport badge) were the anniversary badges and even they were thankfully available for a full month at a time. Due to my unique work schedule I mentioned earlier in this thread I almost missed a couple of those with having just a few days to spare. So my ideal game would NOT even have anniversary badges like CoH's much less any other "one-time only badge".
TBH, I actually hate the idea of the "Kickstarter" and so-called "11th Anniversary" badges we were given by MWM a few years ago. Sure I'm glad I was simply dumb-lucky enough to be around and aware of them to get them but it's going to royally suck for anybody who starts this game fresh in a year or so learning that they are already going to be SOL two badges they probably never knew/heard about. It was just a very bad idea, period.

Wow. Just wow.

I'm speechless.

"Forcing" a badge on people? seriously?

Thinking that butthurt will exist because people didn't get kickstarter badges? Seriously? I don't have a kickstarter badge. I wish I had the knowledge and courage to have done what kickstarters did. But I didn't. First of all, why would you think I would feel resentment over that? And second, why do you think I would project that resentment upon the people who did earn the badge?

I guess I'll never understand the sense of entitlement this new generation has.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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A neat idea FF14 has when it

A neat idea FF14 has when it comes to event rewards is they have the rewards from last year's event available in the storefront when the event comes round again. It's a good way to do it, honestly. Those who worked for it get it exclusively for a year, then others have to buy it.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Just about the only one-time badges CoH forced on us (if you don't count the Passport badge) were the anniversary badges and even they were thankfully available for a full month at a time. Due to my unique work schedule I mentioned earlier in this thread I almost missed a couple of those with having just a few days to spare. So my ideal game would NOT even have anniversary badges like CoH's much less any other "one-time only badge".
TBH, I actually hate the idea of the "Kickstarter" and so-called "11th Anniversary" badges we were given by MWM a few years ago. Sure I'm glad I was simply dumb-lucky enough to be around and aware of them to get them but it's going to royally suck for anybody who starts this game fresh in a year or so learning that they are already going to be SOL two badges they probably never knew/heard about. It was just a very bad idea, period.
Wow. Just wow.
I'm speechless.
"Forcing" a badge on people? seriously?
Thinking that butthurt will exist because people didn't get kickstarter badges? Seriously? I don't have a kickstarter badge. I wish I had the knowledge and courage to have done what kickstarters did. But I didn't. First of all, why would you think I would feel resentment over that? And second, why do you think I would project that resentment upon the people who did earn the badge?
I guess I'll never understand the sense of entitlement this new generation has.

This is actually the very antithesis of "entitlement". I don't want ANYONE to be able to get something that someone else would never have the chance to get. Your interpretation of all this is simply... weird. *shrugs*

P.S. BTW, I'm far too old to be considered a whiny millennial so you'll need to come up with some kind of equivalent "insult" that'll apply to old people. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

A neat idea FF14 has when it comes to event rewards is they have the rewards from last year's event available in the storefront when the event comes round again. It's a good way to do it, honestly. Those who worked for it get it exclusively for a year, then others have to buy it.

This is a reasonable example. I'm also wonderfully delighted that many of the Kickstarter items for this game were offered as LIMITED exclusive items (where the buyer would get certain things exclusively for a year or four Issues). Things that are PERMANENTLY exclusive in games like this never end well and that was the main reason why even CoH did its best to correct most of the things that started out that way.

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I'm kind of divided on One

I'm kind of divided on One Time Events. In general I don't really like them, but I do like having a short quest that last for only a couple of weeks or a month just before a new chapter to the game is launched. For example if a new zone is going to be added that is built around an alien invasion, like the Rikti zone, it's nice to have a quest line for a couple of weeks or a month that has you go investigate some weird occurrences that turn out to be Rikti scouting parties. Sure I would be disappointed if I missed it, but the time period is long enough that if I am playing even semi-regularly I should be able to do the quests.

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zyric wrote:
zyric wrote:

I'm kind of divided on One Time Events. In general I don't really like them, but I do like having a short quest that last for only a couple of weeks or a month just before a new chapter to the game is launched. For example if a new zone is going to be added that is built around an alien invasion, like the Rikti zone, it's nice to have a quest line for a couple of weeks or a month that has you go investigate some weird occurrences that turn out to be Rikti scouting parties. Sure I would be disappointed if I missed it, but the time period is long enough that if I am playing even semi-regularly I should be able to do the quests.

Again your example is related to "getting new content for the game" which as mentioned earlier is a "one-time thing" almost by definition. No way to get around that. But if the "introduction event" for something like that included rewards/items that were only earnable during the short intro period of that content then there's likely to be unnecessary angst involved.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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It seems like a natural thing

It seems like a natural thing, if you're going to have one-off events, to make a badge the "keepsake" or "souvenir" that you'd take away from that. I mean, in the US armed forces, every campaign has a campaign insignia that the soldiers add to their uniforms to indicate that they served that campaign. People buy t-shirts at rock concerts to be able to put on the shirt later and tell people stories about the show, etc.

As such, competitive badge hunting has always seemed like an odd pastime to me. On the one hand, it is simply a contest to see who can get the most badges, period. That said, you can't legitimately just BUY all the badges and "win" that way, because that's clearly not "Badge Hunting", that's "Badge Buying". But you also can't go back in time and "earn" the badge the "right" way either, if the event is over and not coming back.

I really think that the take away lesson from that is that badge hunting should not be done on a competitive basis, because it will never be really fair to everyone, newcomers and veterans alike.

In order to make it fair, you would have to sort badge hunters into groups based on time since they started. If you've been badge hunting competitively since last January 5, you would only be able to officially compete against other people who started at that time. Anything else would be an unfair comparison. But then you could play the game, get a few badges in passing, then officially start badge hunting later, but still have some of the earlier badges anyway. So really, you'd have to hold everyone to the hard rule that your badge hunting start date is always the day you installed the game, regardless of other factors. But that wouldn't be fair to a lot of people either. You can't win.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

It seems like a natural thing, if you're going to have one-off events, to make a badge the "keepsake" or "souvenir" that you'd take away from that. I mean, in the US armed forces, every campaign has a campaign insignia that the soldiers add to their uniforms to indicate that they served that campaign. People buy t-shirts at rock concerts to be able to put on the shirt later and tell people stories about the show, etc.

Sure if you specifically TRY to have/allow one-time events in a MMO then the inclination might be to have one-time "keepsakes/souvenirs". My trivially easy solution to that is to simply AVOID having one-time events in the first place. If you have very few (or no) one-time events then you won't have many (or any) one-time badges either.

Radiac wrote:

As such, competitive badge hunting has always seemed like an odd pastime to me. On the one hand, it is simply a contest to see who can get the most badges, period. That said, you can't legitimately just BUY all the badges and "win" that way, because that's clearly not "Badge Hunting", that's "Badge Buying". But you also can't go back in time and "earn" the badge the "right" way either, if the event is over and not coming back.

Again if you limit (or better yet disallow) one-time events then there are very few (if any) scenarios where people would ever have to worry about "going back in time" to earn such a badge. Again the problem is prevented before it even starts.

Radiac wrote:

I really think that the take away lesson from that is that badge hunting should not be done on a competitive basis, because it will never be really fair to everyone, newcomers and veterans alike.

Right... you're simply going to tell completionist-type MMO players that they shouldn't bother to compete with other completionists? That's like saying something like "people shouldn't want to PvP in games because it'll never be really fair for everyone". Do you really think notions like that will -stop- people from wanting to play a game any damn way they want to?

Radiac wrote:

In order to make it fair, you would have to sort badge hunters into groups based on time since they started. If you've been badge hunting competitively since last January 5, you would only be able to officially compete against other people who started at that time. Anything else would be an unfair comparison. But then you could play the game, get a few badges in passing, then officially start badge hunting later, but still have some of the earlier badges anyway. So really, you'd have to hold everyone to the hard rule that your badge hunting start date is always the day you installed the game, regardless of other factors. But that wouldn't be fair to a lot of people either. You can't win.

Actually you "can win" as long as a game like this simply avoids one-time badges.

In CoH there were only roughly 10 badges out of almost 1,400 that a player could get that were technically "one-time" only badges. Thankfully there were ONLY that many. This clearly begs the question that if there were ONLY 10 why should there really be ANY? It would be very easy enough to design a game that would not have ANY one-time only badges and still be a very playable/enjoyable game.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Just about the only one-time badges CoH forced on us (if you don't count the Passport badge) were the anniversary badges and even they were thankfully available for a full month at a time. Due to my unique work schedule I mentioned earlier in this thread I almost missed a couple of those with having just a few days to spare. So my ideal game would NOT even have anniversary badges like CoH's much less any other "one-time only badge".
TBH, I actually hate the idea of the "Kickstarter" and so-called "11th Anniversary" badges we were given by MWM a few years ago. Sure I'm glad I was simply dumb-lucky enough to be around and aware of them to get them but it's going to royally suck for anybody who starts this game fresh in a year or so learning that they are already going to be SOL two badges they probably never knew/heard about. It was just a very bad idea, period.

Wow. Just wow.
I'm speechless.
"Forcing" a badge on people? seriously?
Thinking that butthurt will exist because people didn't get kickstarter badges? Seriously? I don't have a kickstarter badge. I wish I had the knowledge and courage to have done what kickstarters did. But I didn't. First of all, why would you think I would feel resentment over that? And second, why do you think I would project that resentment upon the people who did earn the badge?
I guess I'll never understand the sense of entitlement this new generation has.

This is actually the very antithesis of "entitlement". I don't want ANYONE to be able to get something that someone else would never have the chance to get. Your interpretation of all this is simply... weird. *shrugs*
P.S. BTW, I'm far too old to be considered a whiny millennial so you'll need to come up with some kind of equivalent "insult" that'll apply to old people. ;)

Okay, perhaps entitled is the wrong word. But what word would you use to describe when someone puts themselves in a position they do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then tries to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it? In several posts already in this thread you stated that farming for rewards with all your alts is not just a hassle, but is downright painful, and then you blame the game design for it being that way.

And if you are too old to be grouped with the millenials, maybe now we know why millenials are this way, if they have this as their example set for them. Let's give everyone a participation trophy, because we don't want to reward achievers and thereby make everyone else resentful.

In my universe, rewarding achievers begets achievement.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I really think that the take away lesson from that is that badge hunting should not be done on a competitive basis, because it will never be really fair to everyone, newcomers and veterans alike.
In order to make it fair, you would have to sort badge hunters into groups based on time since they started. If you've been badge hunting competitively since last January 5, you would only be able to officially compete against other people who started at that time. Anything else would be an unfair comparison. But then you could play the game, get a few badges in passing, then officially start badge hunting later, but still have some of the earlier badges anyway. So really, you'd have to hold everyone to the hard rule that your badge hunting start date is always the day you installed the game, regardless of other factors. But that wouldn't be fair to a lot of people either. You can't win.

True. I would look down upon any game design in which badge hunting was a sponsored competition. For the very reasons you state. Fairness in competition is all about equal opportunity.

And like you said about campaign ribbons and concert t-shirts, those are worthy collectibles and the start of many a story. But I don't think you'll find many people competing to see who has the most of either. Although, I think you might find some roadies of some rock bands who compete with each other to see who has been to the most concerts. In my opinion, those people should be free to establish their own competition and the rules therein.

Likewise, if a guild wants to set up a competition to see who can farm the most badges in a set amount of time, I think that's a great idea. But if someone comes in halfway through that competition and expects to be able to compete with the people who were there from the start, they have to know that it may be impossible for them.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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So I think a number of people

So I think a number of people here didn't understand what I was meaning or just looked at the title before they posted their comments.

A number of you keep presuming that I want all events to be one time (thats stupid and would be a massive waste of dev time) - WHAT I AM SAYING - Is that Events could be one time events and to allow many to see them you expand how long they generally last. You use this as a way to introduce say a big story point etc that changes be it the look of a zone or the game-world. Which is why i phrased it as say an Invasion or a Rift etc something that is wanted to be set up as a story point to be investigated or to emerge further down the line and for the event to be a taster.

These events would be in my opinion their to focus on the promotion of STORY, something that if you have on daily/weekly etc repeat just would continue to clutter up the game world and lead to confusion within sections of the player base.

It would also support player roleplay by putting in content that allows you to feature a bit of story about what you did during it and as its not a single only thing or a group thing but rather a wide thing. You don't have to worry about clashing with other peoples roleplay and all of it can be legitimate.

_____
Next Perma Death -

As I said, Perma Death would be something you were notified on or would be a volunteer option that a Player would have to accept before their character decides to do something stupidly suicidal. By doing this you then allow the Dev's to make a story out of that sub-section of the event and it helps aid the realism that not everyone makes it out alive while fighting an Invasion etc.

___

Story is something that is ALWAYS paramount to me and telling and making a compelling one is something special. I hate being made this "legendary" character just because thats how the dev team wrote the "Main" campaign where if you did anything legendary every player your level would have done the same thing. This way of events makes things unique and allows player to emerge their characters among the fold, It gives the possibility that the dev's may well go for the idea of asking players to sign over a character to be added to the npc pool because of what a player pulled off or did and in theory make a legend.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

As I said, Perma Death would be something you were notified on or would be a volunteer option that a Player would have to accept before their character decides to do something stupidly suicidal. By doing this you then allow the Dev's to make a story out of that sub-section of the event and it helps aid the realism that not everyone makes it out alive while fighting an Invasion etc.
___
Story is something that is ALWAYS paramount to me and telling and making a compelling one is something special.

I would support this idea. I don't like the special reward for killing off your character, however, because that would encourage suicides.

Here's a suggestion on how to implement it that would not only discourage suicides, but would still make heroic sacrifices worth it:
If you set up your character to be a perma-death character, then any rewards from any event you are participating in would be stored in an estate. Any time your character dies a permanent death or voluntary retirement, you are given the option of creating a new character. This new character would then have a trust fund and once reaching a certain level will be awarded the contents of the estate. Thus, if your character dies during some big event, and in so doing enables the successful completion of the event, the badge can be picked up by your heir. In fact, I can see all badges a character owns being passed down as part of the estate to every subsequent heir as one of the rewards for playing a perma-death character.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry]Okay, perhaps
Huckleberry wrote:

Okay, perhaps entitled is the wrong word. But what word would you use to describe when someone puts themselves in a position they do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then tries to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it? In several posts already in this thread you stated that farming for rewards with all your alts is not just a hassle, but is downright painful, and then you blame the game design for it being that way.

What thread are you reading? Talk about putting words into someone's mouth. I have never ONCE said anything about "putting myself in a position I do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then try to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it". What on Earth are you blathering about here? I'm talking about not wanting to miss out on content because an event may happen only one time and you're going about some kind of BS about self-torture or attempts to blame other people for gods-knows what. And I certainly never mentioned ANYTHING about "farming for rewards with all my alts". Where the F*** did that come from? Are you having some kind of stroke here?

Dude, if you want to criticize me about something at least stick to the subject we're actually talking about. I'm talking about my dislike for one-time events. Which thread did you think you were responding to?

Huckleberry wrote:

And if you are too old to be grouped with the millenials, maybe now we know why millenials are this way, if they have this as their example set for them. Let's give everyone a participation trophy, because we don't want to reward achievers and thereby make everyone else resentful.

In my universe, rewarding achievers begets achievement.

Your complete disconnection with reality continues...

I am NOT talking about participation trophies or anything of the sort. I probably spent about 5,000 hours earning 1392+ badges each on two different characters in CoH. Nobody handed me any of those badges just because I "participated" in CoH. What I AM talking about is eliminating the 0.7% percent of the badges in the game that relied on a player being physically in the game during a one-time window. If you're ACTUALLY worried about people getting "something for nothing" then getting rid of those stupid anniversary badges ought to be right up your alley because all you had to do to get them was log into the game during a specific timeframe - absolutely ZERO skill/effort involved. On the other hand I EARNED badges like the 1 billion HP version of Empath that took 9+ MONTHS just for that ONE BADGE. Don't EVER talk to me about NOT working hard to EARN badges until you've walked a mile in my shoes.

One more time just so you might get it this time: I'm NOT talking about just "handing out" all the badges to everyone in the game "just for giggles". I'm talking about making sure EVERYONE has an EQUAL PLAYING FIELD to EARN EVERY BADGE in game without having to be screwed by the mere fact that they might not have started playing the game as soon as someone else did. If you can see fit to be OK with the kind of elitist douchebaggy notion of "entitlement" that some special players should be able to permanently have more things than others then you obviously didn't pay attention to all the efforts the CoH Devs made over the years to try to make their initial PERMANENTLY EXCLUSIVE items available to people who never had a chance to get those things from the beginning.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Huckleberry]Radiac wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Radiac wrote:
I really think that the take away lesson from that is that badge hunting should not be done on a competitive basis, because it will never be really fair to everyone, newcomers and veterans alike.
In order to make it fair, you would have to sort badge hunters into groups based on time since they started. If you've been badge hunting competitively since last January 5, you would only be able to officially compete against other people who started at that time. Anything else would be an unfair comparison. But then you could play the game, get a few badges in passing, then officially start badge hunting later, but still have some of the earlier badges anyway. So really, you'd have to hold everyone to the hard rule that your badge hunting start date is always the day you installed the game, regardless of other factors. But that wouldn't be fair to a lot of people either. You can't win.
True. I would look down upon any game design in which badge hunting was a sponsored competition. For the very reasons you state. Fairness in competition is all about equal opportunity.

There would always be "equal opportunity" if you removed the 0.7% of badges that were based on "one-time" only mechanics.

Huckleberry wrote:

And like you said about campaign ribbons and concert t-shirts, those are worthy collectibles and the start of many a story. But I don't think you'll find many people competing to see who has the most of either. Although, I think you might find some roadies of some rock bands who compete with each other to see who has been to the most concerts. In my opinion, those people should be free to establish their own competition and the rules therein.

Assuming a MMO game even actually had one-time only events like these real life examples.

Huckleberry wrote:

Likewise, if a guild wants to set up a competition to see who can farm the most badges in a set amount of time, I think that's a great idea. But if someone comes in halfway through that competition and expects to be able to compete with the people who were there from the start, they have to know that it may be impossible for them.

Why would anyone even want to jump into any "competition" half way through? That'd be like someone thinking they could start running a marathon at the 13 mile mark or some kind of nonsense like that. You need to think up a more apt analogy than whatever this was supposed to be.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Okay, perhaps entitled is the wrong word. But what word would you use to describe when someone puts themselves in a position they do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then tries to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it? In several posts already in this thread you stated that farming for rewards with all your alts is not just a hassle, but is downright painful, and then you blame the game design for it being that way.

What thread are you reading? Talk about putting words into someone's mouth. I have never ONCE said anything about "putting myself in a position I do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then try to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it". What on Earth are you blathering about here? I'm talking about not wanting to miss out on content because an event may happen only one time and you're going about some kind of BS about self-torture or attempts to blame other people for gods-knows what. And I certainly never mentioned ANYTHING about "farming for rewards with all my alts". Where the F*** did that come from? Are you having some kind of stroke here?

You are so right.

My mistake. It was actually a post by Redlynne, not you. Please accept my apology.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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So anyway If you did out with

So anyway If you did out with badges being rewarded as something of note for the content would you have any other issues after ive clarified and with said suggestion being that the events are announced before they are due to happen and last an extended period of time is their any other queries that you have with my suggestion ?

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Okay, perhaps entitled is the wrong word. But what word would you use to describe when someone puts themselves in a position they do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then tries to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it? In several posts already in this thread you stated that farming for rewards with all your alts is not just a hassle, but is downright painful, and then you blame the game design for it being that way.
What thread are you reading? Talk about putting words into someone's mouth. I have never ONCE said anything about "putting myself in a position I do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then try to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it". What on Earth are you blathering about here? I'm talking about not wanting to miss out on content because an event may happen only one time and you're going about some kind of BS about self-torture or attempts to blame other people for gods-knows what. And I certainly never mentioned ANYTHING about "farming for rewards with all my alts". Where the F*** did that come from? Are you having some kind of stroke here?
You are so right.
My mistake. It was actually a post by Redlynne, not you. Please accept my apology.

Well at least I can respect someone who admits their mistakes. Apology accepted.

For what it's worth even when you and I disagree on this forum I still consider you a "worthy adversary" and I will offer a blanket apology here and now for whenever my responses have strayed too close into "personal insult" territory.

Look, I get the whole "one-time event" thing can be argued both ways. But as a super-quick anecdote I played CoH with several long time in-game friends who were all avid badgers like me. We would always help/push each other to get as many badges as we could. But a couple of them started playing CoH a few of years after CoH started so they were always short the first several anniversary badges. We actually talked about that situation fairly often and it was point of a huge amount of angst and argument amongst us. In the long run we collectively agreed it was BAD IDEA for the game to have designed those (very) few badges in such a way that through no fault of their own they were always going to be short those badges.

Now I can easily get that other people might not care about something like this or even take the side of saying "tough shit for them". But as their friend I will always have sympathy for how much the situation bothered them and how easily it would have been for the game to have avoided that situation for ANYONE by simply not having any one-time event badges. I hope that explains my stance on this whether you agree or not.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Okay, perhaps entitled is the wrong word. But what word would you use to describe when someone puts themselves in a position they do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then tries to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it? In several posts already in this thread you stated that farming for rewards with all your alts is not just a hassle, but is downright painful, and then you blame the game design for it being that way.
What thread are you reading? Talk about putting words into someone's mouth. I have never ONCE said anything about "putting myself in a position I do not enjoy as a result of their own conscious decisions, and then try to blame someone else for the fact they dislike it". What on Earth are you blathering about here? I'm talking about not wanting to miss out on content because an event may happen only one time and you're going about some kind of BS about self-torture or attempts to blame other people for gods-knows what. And I certainly never mentioned ANYTHING about "farming for rewards with all my alts". Where the F*** did that come from? Are you having some kind of stroke here?
You are so right.
My mistake. It was actually a post by Redlynne, not you. Please accept my apology.
Well at least I can respect someone who admits their mistakes. Apology accepted.
For what it's worth even when you and I disagree on this forum I still consider you a "worthy adversary" and I will offer a blanket apology here and now for whenever my responses have strayed too close into "personal insult" territory.
Look, I get the whole "one-time event" thing can be argued both ways. But as a super-quick anecdote I played CoH with several long time in-game friends who were all avid badgers like me. We would always help/push each other to get as many badges as we could. But a couple of them started playing CoH a few of years after CoH started so they we always short the first several of anniversary badges. We actually talked about that situation fairly often and it was point of a huge amount of angst and argument amongst us. In the long run we collectively agreed it was BAD IDEA for the game to have designed those (very) few badges in such a way that through no fault of their own they were always going to be short those badges.
Now I can easily get that other people might not care about something like this or even take the side of saying "tough shit for them". But as their friend I will always have sympathy for how much the situation bothered them and how easily it would have been for the game to have avoided that situation for ANYONE by simply not having any one-time event badges. I hope that explains my stance on this whether you agree or not.

You could always do it by say a reward being a housing prop for example, this would in a sense not cause issues for achievement hunters and you can make them tradeable etc.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

So anyway If you did out with badges being rewarded as something of note for the content would you have any other issues after ive clarified and with said suggestion being that the events are announced before they are due to happen and last an extended period of time is their any other queries that you have with my suggestion ?

To be clear I've never said that badges shouldn't be rewarded for "something of note". I just said there shouldn't be any unique badges that could only be earned from being in the game for a short one-time period. If the Devs wanted to hand out a badge for an event just make sure either the event REPEATS at some point or it's a generic enough badge that there might be OTHER WAYS to get it. It's really just that simple.

The concept behind "No badge should be based on a one-time only window of opportunity" is not that hard to grasp. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
So anyway If you did out with badges being rewarded as something of note for the content would you have any other issues after ive clarified and with said suggestion being that the events are announced before they are due to happen and last an extended period of time is their any other queries that you have with my suggestion ?
To be clear I've never said that badges shouldn't be rewarded for "something of note". I just said there shouldn't be any unique badges that could only be earned from being in the game for a short one-time period. If the Devs wanted to hand out a badge for an event just make sure either the event REPEATS at some point or it's a generic enough badge that there might be OTHER WAYS to get it. It's really just that simple.
The concept behind "No badge should be based on a one-time only window of opportunity" is not that hard to grasp. *shrugs*

Just to clarify what I meant would be don't give badges out for one time events but rather like a housing prop or something. That would make the housing prop the something of note/reward.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

You could always do it by say a reward being a housing prop for example, this would in a sense not cause issues for achievement hunters and you can make them tradeable etc.

Deathwatch101 wrote:

Just to clarify what I meant would be don't give badges out for one time events but rather like a housing prop or something. That would make the housing prop the something of note/reward.

There can be ALL sorts of rewards you could use for things like this. There's really almost -no- limit to it EVEN if you stick by the working idea to not make a reward that could never be gotten anywhere else.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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So, perhaps a solution for

So, perhaps a solution for Anniversary and other sorts of one-time event memorabilia would be to make them Account based and kept in their own category, so they don't interfere with a character's 'Badge Count'?

That way, one-time events are still an option for the Devs, without creating the sort of backlash they caused in CoH.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

So, perhaps a solution for Anniversary and other sorts of one-time event memorabilia would be to make them Account based and kept in their own category, so they don't interfere with a character's 'Badge Count'?
That way, one-time events are still an option for the Devs, without creating the sort of backlash they caused in CoH.
Be Well!
Fireheart

"It's the tenth anniversary and all I got was this t-shirt unlock for my account" t-shirt.

:D

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

So, perhaps a solution for Anniversary and other sorts of one-time event memorabilia would be to make them Account based and kept in their own category, so they don't interfere with a character's 'Badge Count'?
That way, one-time events are still an option for the Devs, without creating the sort of backlash they caused in CoH.
Be Well!
Fireheart

"It's the tenth anniversary and all I got was this t-shirt unlock for my account" t-shirt.

:D

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

So, perhaps a solution for Anniversary and other sorts of one-time event memorabilia would be to make them Account based and kept in their own category, so they don't interfere with a character's 'Badge Count'?
That way, one-time events are still an option for the Devs, without creating the sort of backlash they caused in CoH.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Yes that was actually discussed as a good compromise solution when this topic came up in other threads on this forum in the past. I'm hoping the CoT Devs will actually take the idea to heart because I'm enough of a realist to accept that they'll likely still want to have a few one-time only badges. Sadly as I mentioned earlier we already technically have two of them to deal with ("Kickstarter" and "11th Anniversary") regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

These events would be in my opinion their to focus on the promotion of STORY, something that if you have on daily/weekly etc repeat just would continue to clutter up the game world and lead to confusion within sections of the player base.

This sounds like the "living story" GW2 uses. If that's the way the game is set up and the devs have plans for it, it could certainly work. If not, I have doubts that MWM could shoehorn such a thing into the game. MWM has also repeatedly stated that they want the players to tell their story, rather than being hobbled to the game's story. Not that these couldn't be reconciled, but it may be why MWM would to avoid driving the story in such a manner.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
These events would be in my opinion their to focus on the promotion of STORY, something that if you have on daily/weekly etc repeat just would continue to clutter up the game world and lead to confusion within sections of the player base.
This sounds like the "living story" GW2 uses. If that's the way the game is set up and the devs have plans for it, it could certainly work. If not, I have doubts that MWM could shoehorn such a thing into the game. MWM has also repeatedly stated that they want the players to tell their story, rather than being hobbled to the game's story. Not that these couldn't be reconciled, but it may be why MWM would to avoid driving the story in such a manner.

What I mean by that is that the World has a Story and how you act within your character in that story is your own. You could not fight during an invasion, rob stores or you could be on the frontline fighting or serving in support or going behind enemy lines etc.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

It was actually a post by Redlynne, not you.

Makes me wonder why you quoted a nested chain of other people instead of me then.
Oh and apology accepted (just in case).


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
It was actually a post by Redlynne, not you.
Makes me wonder why you quoted a nested chain of other people instead of me then.
Oh and apology accepted (just in case).

That's why I love you guys.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

So, perhaps a solution for Anniversary and other sorts of one-time event memorabilia would be to make them Account based and kept in their own category, so they don't interfere with a character's 'Badge Count'?
That way, one-time events are still an option for the Devs, without creating the sort of backlash they caused in CoH.
Be Well!
Fireheart

For anything "Anniversary" or such I would expect them to be account from the beginning since it's not really an achievement by the character but rather by You the player. But this "solution" still leave people who come in late "behind" others who have played longer, and with no way what so ever to fully catch up.

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I agree with Lothic's general

I agree with Lothic's general stance on this. In fact I would gladly give up my "K" and "11" badges to ensure no one else felt like they were blocked out unfairly.

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A game get's made in which

A game get's made in which there are things you might collect for various achievements called "badges".
Some badges are given out for things you had to be there at a certain time to get, some commemorate specific things that only happened once, like annual anniversaries, etc.
People who like badges decide to have a contest to get the most badges. You only win by having the most badges.
People who get onboard with that last sentence get mad that there are badges they cannot acquire no matter what, because they were only given out once and that opportunity is now gone.
People complain that the badges are being implemented "wrong" by the devs because it's not a "fair" contest.
Devs state it was never intended as a contest in the first place (Posi's stance on this was basically that) and tell people "just don't count those badges, problem solved"
People say "no, we have to count them, they exist. You just should never have made them in the first place, now we're stuck with them though, and that's not fair. Stop doing that."
The people who HAVE the now-impossible-to-get badges say "Hey, I got mine -- WINNING!" while the have-nots whine that they've being treated unfairly in a contest that the devs never actually intended to happen and which they entered into willingly, despite knowing the tragic flaw in the logic that is the Badge Hunting hobby.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

So, perhaps a solution for Anniversary and other sorts of one-time event memorabilia would be to make them Account based and kept in their own category, so they don't interfere with a character's 'Badge Count'?
That way, one-time events are still an option for the Devs, without creating the sort of backlash they caused in CoH.
Be Well!
Fireheart

I was just thinking this last night. One of the things that kind of bugged me about COH was that I had a lot of the seasonal badges but they weren't on one character. They were spread out across 3 or 4 because I didn't feel like getting them on my older characters. I prefer playing which ever character was my main at that time period. This would resolve that issue and help make these types of events feel less grindy. The fact you only have to do it once on your account could mean the devs could create a much more in depth event since you only have to do it once instead of having to design one in which you have to do it 10 or 15 times just so all of your alts can get the badge.

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I, for one, am far happier

I, for one, am far happier with handing out Temporary Titles for having attended or otherwise completed an Event, than I am with handing out a Permanent Badge for that Event, especially if the Event is Time Limited and will not recur in the future. Temporary Titles have no game mechanical effects whatsoever, they aren't used to "gate" content and they are inherently "not collectible" since they expire.

The HAVE versus HAVE NOT distinction becomes a lot less important when the "attendance marker" is a purely cosmetic and Temporary thing ... but if it's a Permanent thing that can promote "but now I can never get that" feelings, it might be time to reconsider the wisdom of offering anything Permanent under those circumstances.


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The goal for any event or

The goal for any event or festivities should be to create memories rather than allow people to pull out their, "Hey, I have a Year 3 badge (medallion, forum title, whatever)!" "Oh yeah? I have a Year 1 badge!" For example, with regards to something like an anniversary celebration, we could have Titan City jubilee coincide with the launch date (or whatever). Something like Hurricane Atlas Remembrance Day (which could actually be a week of general festivities). Then have an event during that time that the devs can kick off and guide within the parameters of the game. Maybe the Aether Pirates show up somewhere unexpectedly, or there's something like the troll rave. That way a player's "badge" is to be able to talk about that time the Unforgiven chased weird unicorn spirits in Weston.

As Radiac points out, MWM has the benefit of hindsight. It'd be foolish for them to deliberately make the mistake that the CoH devs stumbled into. My experience (limited though it may be, since I only collected specific badges) has been that a lot of people share their stories and experiences about CoH. I can't recall that I've seen anyone talk about some particular badge they got, or didn't get, unless badges specifically come up as a topic.

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Or, people should never have

Or, people should never have worried about the anniversary badge as a sign of "I can't have more badges than that person" and only worried about in game badges, based solely on playing.

And temp titles? What if we love the titles! Should be permanent! Was there ever a "Title collector" thing in CoH?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Or, people should never have worried about the anniversary badge as a sign of "I can't have more badges than that person" and only worried about in game badges, based solely on playing.
And temp titles? What if we love the titles! Should be permanent! Was there ever a "Title collector" thing in CoH?

Agree. If someone is that distressed over not having an earlier year's anniversary badge because they hadn't started playing the game yet; then I would suggest that the problem is with them, not the game. Perhaps they've taken obsession to an unhealthy level. It is certainly a possible and not unlikely result.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Fair enough, but then what do

Fair enough, but then what do you recommend for the people who appear to be equally distressed over not getting a unique badge for such an event?

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For a seasonal event? In CoH

For a seasonal event? In CoH that seemed to mean, you just have to wait for the opportunity to come again.

Unless you're talking about a badge for a 1 time event, never to happen again, like the Old Nazi's vs the new German friendly Nazi's or some big changing of a zone that is also made into an event, and the person misses it, you just say "Sorry, wish you could've been there."

It's not the end of the world :p

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I still see no reason to

I still see no reason to spite the badge hunters other than wrongfun.

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I never saw anniversary

I never saw anniversary badges and one time event badges (though I really don't recall any of these) in as spiting them.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Fair enough, but then what do you recommend for the people who appear to be equally distressed over not getting a unique badge for such an event?

I suppose that would depend upon the consequences of not having the badge.
If the badge is required for an achievement, I would say: bad game design. Unless it was an achievement something like "participate in three unique events," in which case it would still be possible even if several events had been missed.
If the badge is required for no other reason than because the person wants to collect all the possible badges, then that is their own issue to deal with; and if they let it distress them to the point of unhappiness that is unhealthy.

I understand that people can be competitive. I am too. But I don't think the game should be designed to cater to people who have unhealthy levels of obsession.

A healthy mindset would be: "Shoot, I missed that event. I hope I don't miss the next one. Oh, you were there? really? What was it like? That sounds like it was fun!"
An unhealthy mindset would be : "I missed the event. I'll never be able to recover, even if I play 24/7 for the rest of my life. I'll never be the same again. You were there? You got the badge? You elitest jerk. How dare you lord it over me like that!"

I hope you can see the difference.

(Edit: I and probably 99% of the world lie somewhere between those two. I think it is natural to feel some sort of jealousy-fueled resentment towards anyone who has something you never will. But I think the line between health and sickness is whether you overcome it or nurture it. In today's online social media, it is far too easy to find an echo-chamber of like minds and devolve into a self-reinforcing state of mind. For good or ill.)


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Now, we have to tolerate

Now, we have to tolerate everyone is wired differently. Though personally I can accept that not have 100% isn't a problem at least in my eyes, others do and further issues come when dev's reward you for that 100% other than just the standard showing off people do to each other.

The closest thing ive had to the feeling of greatness from completing achievements was earning Recon in Halo 3. The hours, the failures, the successes. Those things leave lasting memories burned into your mind the feeling that invigorated your body when you FINALLY got it. I got it fighting alongside 3 guys from the Netherlands, ODST being the last achievements we needed, wave after wave of covenant. A number of times it being down to one of us after the other three died. Myself at one point soloing number of enemies including a chieftains with evasion and a magnum before I could get other weapons. The last round being down to two of us myself with ammunition in my magnum only and me and other guy having to fight our way out of a room to get us that achievement.

The thrill though that when you played multiplayer though and someone in the lobby said holy cow, that guys got recon. You were legends, people feared you, people begged you, people adored you. Thats the greatest feeling you ever can have to be acknowledged by people that you have proven yourself worth of such a honour, such a title. Far better to me than standing letting someone deal 800k damage to you etc.

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The fact that it's a thing

The fact that it's a thing they know is missing that they'll never be able to obtain would stick in their craw if they were the type of completionist or a collector like that.

I'm firmly in the camp of timed-exclusive rewards. Hand out rewards for an event then sell them in the cash shop some time after. That really seems to be the best of both worlds.

Or I guess have the reward become part of the world in some fashion. Like someone mentioned with a plaque or something, or maybe a wall of names or some such. Instead of a badge I mean.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Now, we have to tolerate everyone is wired differently. Though personally I can accept that not have 100% isn't a problem at least in my eyes, others do and further issues come when dev's reward you for that 100% other than just the standard showing off people do to each other.
The closest thing ive had to the feeling of greatness from completing achievements was earning Recon in Halo 3. The hours, the failures, the successes. Those things leave lasting memories burned into your mind the feeling that invigorated your body when you FINALLY got it. I got it fighting alongside 3 guys from the Netherlands, ODST being the last achievements we needed, wave after wave of covenant. A number of times it being down to one of us after the other three died. Myself at one point soloing number of enemies including a chieftains with evasion and a magnum before I could get other weapons. The last round being down to two of us myself with ammunition in my magnum only and me and other guy having to fight our way out of a room to get us that achievement.
The thrill though that when you played multiplayer though and someone in the lobby said holy cow, that guys got recon. You were legends, people feared you, people begged you, people adored you. Thats the greatest feeling you ever can have to be acknowledged by people that you have proven yourself worth of such a honour, such a title. Far better to me than standing letting someone deal 800k damage to you etc.

Perfect.

I hope we will get badge achievements like that!

And I hope the developers know not to include one-time badges in that achievement also.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Project_Hero
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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Now, we have to tolerate everyone is wired differently. Though personally I can accept that not have 100% isn't a problem at least in my eyes, others do and further issues come when dev's reward you for that 100% other than just the standard showing off people do to each other.
The closest thing ive had to the feeling of greatness from completing achievements was earning Recon in Halo 3. The hours, the failures, the successes. Those things leave lasting memories burned into your mind the feeling that invigorated your body when you FINALLY got it. I got it fighting alongside 3 guys from the Netherlands, ODST being the last achievements we needed, wave after wave of covenant. A number of times it being down to one of us after the other three died. Myself at one point soloing number of enemies including a chieftains with evasion and a magnum before I could get other weapons. The last round being down to two of us myself with ammunition in my magnum only and me and other guy having to fight our way out of a room to get us that achievement.
The thrill though that when you played multiplayer though and someone in the lobby said holy cow, that guys got recon. You were legends, people feared you, people begged you, people adored you. Thats the greatest feeling you ever can have to be acknowledged by people that you have proven yourself worth of such a honour, such a title. Far better to me than standing letting someone deal 800k damage to you etc.

The thing with that is it's an achievement. It's something you did and earned. It's not like a "log in during these dates" award.

A better award for the damage one would be "survived a hit of X damage or greater" now that'd be a neat one.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Deathwatch101
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The thing with that is it's an achievement. It's something you did and earned. It's not like a "log in during these dates" award.
A better award for the damage one would be "survived a hit of X damage or greater" now that'd be a neat one.

If they did events to my dream idea of them I'd personally prefer things like housing props etc. Something that could be tradeable that you could put in your house/property and show what your action was during that event. Maybe a supporter medal, Trophy if you went thieving or Frontliner medal etc.

Project_Hero
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Might be an idea to have

Might be an idea to have events give a special kind of event currency that can be spent on event rewards, have the event rewards always available from a special NPC, then just update the list as new events roll around. So every event you can earn the currency then buy whatever rewards you'd like from a list of all event rewards.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

blacke4dawn
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I understand that people can be competitive. I am too. But I don't think the game should be designed to cater to people who have unhealthy levels of obsession.

There is a big difference between specifically catering to those who have such conditions and just minimizing distress points. Some people just can't help it, or are you saying that such people shouldn't play the game?

Is it really necessary to have once in a lifetime achievements for MWM to be able to properly convey the overall experience they want to? Personally I seriously doubt it.

Deathwatch101
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Might be an idea to have events give a special kind of event currency that can be spent on event rewards, have the event rewards always available from a special NPC, then just update the list as new events roll around. So every event you can earn the currency then buy whatever rewards you'd like from a list of all event rewards.

Sounds like a solid suggestion, it would allow people who are momento gatherers to get things if you did it as housing props from activities they missed etc.

I just want to have that feeling on being a hero at moment that will never happen again. That energy that fills your veins as you fought against all the odds to be left standing alongside those of your comrades, exhausted and shattered. Tested to the extreme, be you villain, mercenary or hero before you made a stand for what you believed be it fighting an adversery.

I guess its something like wanting to see an Event that progresses the story, Like we have Hurricane Atlas in the lore. Where those with powers gather, it draws other threats and challengers that want to test their own power.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

If someone is that distressed over not having an earlier year's anniversary badge because they hadn't started playing the game yet; then I would suggest that the problem is with them, not the game.

I can agree with this - at least in this very specific instance. I mean - if you weren't there for the first anniversary in CoH, then logically you shouldn't be able to get that 1st anniversary badge. That said, badges that signify single specific "global" events, and are earned simply by "showing up" (like said CoH anniversaries), should be extremely rare, and they should be account-based. Badges or other rewards earned through gameplay (participating in a mission, even if seasonal or scheduled) should probably be repeatable and character-based.

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My main concern with unique

My main concern with unique events is that dev time and hard-drive space on player computers are both finite. IMHO, both should be focused on providing the greatest amount of *reusable* content for the most people. Basic maintenance and overhead already will eat up a lot of both.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

My main concern with unique events is that dev time and hard-drive space on player computers are both finite. IMHO, both should be focused on providing the greatest amount of *reusable* content for the most people. Basic maintenance and overhead already will eat up a lot of both.

Would people who play MMOs really be lacking in hard-drive space? o.O I have at least 8 MMOs on my computer and still have over half my space left.

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Events are good. Even one

Events are good. Even one time events. They make a game seem more alive. Anything that brings people together is a good thing.

Rewards that people miss out on because they were at work late or out of town for a week or something, those are bad.

Necro Mastermind.

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I would love to have one-time

I would love to have one-time events. My desires so stated, I leave it up to the developers to determine what is and what is not worth their resources, time, money and effort.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I would love to have one-time events. My desires so stated, I leave it up to the developers to determine what is and what is not worth their resources, time, money and effort.

For example an alien invasion, you might do the event to be the scouting fleet or vanguard fleet. After that any stuff after the event would be clean-up or eliminating enemy bases/outposts that they put down before the outcome/during the event. Which means assets would be available for later story and to provide content.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
If someone is that distressed over not having an earlier year's anniversary badge because they hadn't started playing the game yet; then I would suggest that the problem is with them, not the game.
I can agree with this - at least in this very specific instance. I mean - if you weren't there for the first anniversary in CoH, then logically you shouldn't be able to get that 1st anniversary badge. That said, badges that signify single specific "global" events, and are earned simply by "showing up" (like said CoH anniversaries), should be extremely rare, and they should be account-based. Badges or other rewards earned through gameplay (participating in a mission, even if seasonal or scheduled) should probably be repeatable and character-based.

I guess I am in the camp that says we should not have these type of badges at all for the reasons previously stated. But it may be too late for that already. As an alternative, I would make such badges (agree rare case issue) a limited number commodity that could be bought, sold, traded, given from one person to another etc. Lots of people are obsessed with collecting things from events they did not actually witness/accomplish and others could care less if they receive a badge on a one time basis or not. Seems like a way to make the most people happy. Just another out of the box idea that likely won't happen.

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If all you are talking about

If all you are talking about is one time invasion, insurgency, riot or other large scale open world fighting events then I am not against it.

I personally hate invasion events. I find them boring, they lack creativity and they cannot be easily ignored if you have no interest in them. But as a prelude to something else I don't see the harm in a short period where the one time invasion event took place. I will say, between the eternal lantern corp war in DCU and a one time invasion event, I would take the one time event any day.

I am still against the active quest system to be used for one time events. That's to say, I don't want a quest or series of quests to be created just to be forever locked away after a few weeks.
And regardless of the event I am dead set against any reward being event exclusive and denied to any who didn't participate. Especially when the rewards can easily be generic enough to be used in following events. This includes badges or achievements.

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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

I guess I am in the camp that says we should not have these type of badges at all for the reasons previously stated. But it may be too late for that already. As an alternative, I would make such badges (agree rare case issue) a limited number commodity that could be bought, sold, traded, given from one person to another etc. Lots of people are obsessed with collecting things from events they did not actually witness/accomplish and others could care less if they receive a badge on a one time basis or not. Seems like a way to make the most people happy. Just another out of the box idea that likely won't happen.

I think that's not a bad idea. You may not be the guy who caught Barry Bonds' 756th home run ball, but if you are willing to pay enough, you could still obtain it. I like win-win suggestions like this. And while I think it does diminish the bragging rights that come with actual participation somewhat, I think it is a workable compromise. Besides, like you said, there will be some people who care not what unique rewards they get, but will probably look forward to whatever they could get for one.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.