I'm not sure if this is viable, but I thought it might be depending on how the game handles training, and how much like City of Heroes such a mechanic is. Regardless, here's my idea for the Player Trainer system.
If, perchance, the game uses signature NPCs to be the game's method of levelling up your characters, then it might be intriguing to see, depending on how fast characters can level up, other players potentially taking on the role of training players.
Thinking about it the other day, I realised the significance of being educated by signature NPCs, the Old Guard teaching the new guys how to be the best they can be. It then struck me that, by the time CoH closed down, a very large number of people were themselves the Old Guard, having been there since the game's release. They literally had years of wisdom as players, but their characters likely had that same amount of wisdom to boot.
So why not, in that sense, have max level players be able to serve the role as potential level boosting characters in and of themselves.
The way I imagine it working would be through either a toggle or clicky power, or even a listed option when you right click that player. I would assume that both players need to remain still for the sake of it.
[b]What benefit does this have for the new guy?[/b]
Generally, the ability to find a player to be trained by would be for the sake of convenience. Most trainers in City of Heroes were progressively further away from your current mission, and could potentially break the flow of your missioning by having to go all the way back to them, levelling up, then returning to your current objective. A player trainer would be able to reduce that time if they were to pick an area of the city in which many missions took place and set up shop there. They would then appear on the map with the trainer icon, so that can be more easily located by the newer players.
This wait time would be reduced to nothing if the max level player has the newer players as sidekicks while they run through missions together!
In addition to this, it could be possible that being trained by a player would also provide a longer lasting buff based on their class (Say, being trained by a Stalwart would grant a resistance buff.) which would give them an additional bonus to beign trained by other players.
[b]What benefit does this have for the trainer?[/b]
With nothing else to learn, a maxed character might seem without benefit when partaking in this, but teachers rarely learn nothing from their pupils, and no good deed goes unrewarded. Well, not all of them at least >_>
A Player Trainer would benefit from earning Ingenuity (I believe that's the current name for the game's currency) which they earn every time a player levels up via them. Alternatively, every ten players that level up by them would earn themselves a Respec.
They can also walk away with a buff from a session of training the newer heroes.
[b]Wouldn't this make NPC trainers superfluous?[/b]
Well, yes, if that's all you give them to do. NPC trainers could do other things, like being vendors, mission contacts or even the folks you encounter to respec your abilities. Player Trainers are better at one thing, NPC Trainer can do a lot more.
I'm still hoping all one has to do is open a window and choose. Trainers all about the city never felt like a superhero thing to me. Not that heroes don't train, but they don't go "You hit level 23! You can now kick harder with this kick!"
Well, that's fair. I guess it depends on how quickly one can level in the game, especially since the level cap is set to 30, which isn't too high by comparisson of other MMOs.
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Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
30 is the cap at launch it will be expanded post launch. I know there will be places to test new powers to figure put if its the power you want, but it won't be mandatory. More than one of us devs have expressed the desire to use a character builder app that synchs with the game and the character follows the preplanned build automatically. Including integration with the avatar creator and all the power selections and animations can be preset.
One thing about the signature npcs of the game is to not make the player feel their character is always outclassed by them. At some point the pcs should be at least equal (in friendship, rivalry, or at least pubically-in-game as known as) to the signature npcs and surpassing some of them as well.
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That is just an arbitary number to be honest. A game could launch with 100 levels, and take just the same amount of time as a game with 20 levels to get to cap...
I didn't choose 20 out of chance... Guild Wars 1 launched with (and stuck with) 20 levels. There was a LOT that you could do though once you hit the cap as well.
Hell, most single player RPG's out there have a level cap that is actually *Far above* what a normal player would get to without necessarily "grinding for XP" and still be completable.
Mass Effect has a cap at 50 on your first "completion", and then afterwards ALL of your other play throughs will cap at 60.
Mass Effect 2 had a cap at just Level 30 though but Mass Effect 3 capped out at 60 (go figure).
Most other traditional RPG's seem to cap at either 50 or 100 (although Baldurs Gate capped at level 7 or 8 ish if I remember correctly)
I kinda liked the way going to a trainer made levelling up an "event" in a character's career, not to mention the trainers served as another "gathering point" that increased the chances of encountering other PCs, but I'm not married to the idea. Given what MWM has said all along about our characters' relationships to the sig chars, what you say in your final paragraph makes a lot of sense.
Whatever you decide, I have two requests: (1) Please don't force us to plan all our powers from level one. It's great if there will be a tool for the folks who like to do this, but some of us like to concentrate on one level at a time; (2) if there will be player action required at levelling, please give us an obvious visual indicator that a character has levelled. I think CoX did a good job of this, but some other MMOs I have played have provided such a subtle indicator that I have gone through more than one mission before realising my character had levelled.
Spurn all ye kindle.
-1. Even if they add Trainers on every street corner, its MUCH better to have an NPC train you.
I HATE having the GUI just appear and you pick a power at random.
It would STILL be Better, to me at least, if the dialog had a NPC Trainers static Image that had some dialog that still just GUI based.
The important thing is, it has to feel like you're GIVEN the POWER as a Prize, not so much that YOU EARNED IT, and have the mentality of "F.. U... CITY Officials and your Trainers! You cant tell me NOW I can use that power that I EARNED MYSELF on MY OWN sweat and tears!" :)
And NPC Trainers made players feel like kids do in school when they answered a question right in class... and in doing GOOD, they go up front to collect their PRIZE from the Teacher. A brand NEW Power! ;D
Ohh, we should have an NPC Trainer pat players on the Head too! ;D
J/K. ;)
+1
Did you mean to say -1 here or +1? It sounds like we're in agreement on this.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Yep. ;) +1
Oh, no doubt, I think if I remember correctly, 6 is the level cap in Baldurs Gate, but you get a lot from levelling up in that game. I suppose I was a bit presumptuous in that DCUO, which also has a level cap of 30, also had the problem of getting to the cap within about a day of dedicated play.
I can also understand the concerns of having the Significant NPCs seems superior to the players at any given point, but I feel that having them as trainers doesn't immediately invoke that, and I think it was a key advantage City of Heroes had over Champions Online and DCUO.
For example, DCUO had this problem where, due to its license, you couldn't be better than the NPCs. In fact, I remember being almost furious towards the end as it seemed that only after I had proved the Justice League's existence pointless with my deeds that they considered offering me a membership, especially since I know that there have been characters in the DC continuity who got in for much, much less.
In Champions, while being part of the RP community, there was this unwritten rule that you couldn't be better than certain characters. Your tech couldn't be superior to Dr. Destroyer, for example. I'm pretty sure this wasn't typically invoked by the game itself, but it felt weird that UNITY was meant to be the most advanced and powerful military group on the planet, and they still needed my help with almost trivial matters.
City of Heroes kinda hit the nail on the head. You were taught about the act of being a superhero or villain, how to improve your powers and stuff, but as you reach max, you're clearly better than them, and the game encouraged that. The Freedom Phalanx would ask your advice in signature missions, Lord Recluse wholly admits that you were going to surpass him soon, if you haven't already. In short, there was this sense of 'once the student, now the master'.
Sure the game had certain issues with aspects of their context (how many of you were annoyed that when, not one but two spots opened on the Freedom Phalanx after WWD, and you've been a reserve member for such a long time, and Penelope Yin gets to join out of nowhere?) but for the most part, I felt that the game's story and world building allowed its players to feel that they were truly the hero, at least more so than its competitors did at the time, and part of that was the significant NPCs.
When you started your journey, you had to look up to these people, because they were here before you, they are, mechanically superior to you; as a level one character, there wasn't exactly much choice in the matter. As you would develop, gaining new powers and understanding mechanics, you begin experiencing this unique position where you are now, quite clearly, equal or superior to those you once looked up to.
At least, that's my two cents on it :P I can certainly see the convenience of being able to level up on the spot, but I do agree with Izzy that it has the potential to break you out of immersion.
I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.
Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
I tend to agree - the trainers served as a social focal point on many maps. It also meant that people weren't levelling their character in the middle of a mission as soon as they dinged, slowing everyone else down as they considered all of their options. You had time to make your choices and maybe shop to get an enhancement or two.
+1 for Trainers from me as well.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Oh, good point. To risk a bit of cross-thread contamination, I think that's why I liked CoX's level-based Enh degradation over other games' continuous gear degradation. In CoX I was likely to be going back to get trained anyway, so having to replace some Enhs was just part of that process. And the maintenance drudgery was always balanced by the rich chocolatey goodness of a new power or new slots.
Spurn all ye kindle.
+1 Cinnder.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
What if there were central locations in game for selecting new powers and testing them and offering an pre-planned-auto-levelling process? That is basically what we are setting up while avoiding the stop in action to decide what new power to pick in the midst of a mission.
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I'd have to hear more, but that sounds like precisely what I said I didn't want (above). I have no problem with offering that sort of pre-planning to folks who want it, but I prefer not to think about the next power I will select until it's time to select it. If I know what all my powers will be in the future, that takes away a huge amount of enjoyment from the levelling process for me.
In addition, even if I knew the total list of powers I'd have at max level, for any given level where I have more than one to choose from, I can't know ahead of time which I will think I need the most at that time. Only the experience of the last level or two can tell me whether what I really have been missing is a heal, stun, AoE or whatever.
Again, I have no problem if such a facility were available to pre-plan players; I'd just hate to be forced to use it.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Giving a player control over their own leveling is fine. I still prefer going to the NPC, getting my new level with either a new power or new slots, hitting up the nearby vendor for a quick enhancement upgrade, or heading back to base to pick up enhancements I'd made in anticipation of leveling up or making new ones. I was very fond of the CoX methodology for character progress. I'm not the kind to hit the sewers and farm until I've hit some arbitrary level goal like 10 or 12, then hit the nearest hazard zone and farm up to the next major level plateau. Nope. Not fond of that style of play at all. Terribly boring.
Give me a good story that strings together four or five missions with surprising plot twists and unexpected revelations about the world. Then a break to handle the training/crafting/powering up, and into the next twisted dramatic tale of adventure, betrayal, enlightenment, loyalty, or whatever. It makes for a good rhythm, provides convenient places to log off and get back to the real world so I can feed the cat, cook dinner for the kids, and catch the latest episode of Castle.
Pacing in CoH was wonky and inconsistent and most of the stories were bland, uninspiring tales with no clear protagonist and no real point. CoV had perfect pacing, a few bland storylines, but most of the stories were rife with colorful characters getting themselves into trouble (or getting themselves out of trouble!). Then Going Rogue came along and turned everything on its head in a good way.
Giving max level players the ability to train low level players seems to me pretty foolish. It would encourage powerleveling to gain that ability, and then once a player had it, it would encourage arbitrary powerbroking, favortism, and top-down hierachies based on earning brownie points with high level players. A very bad idea in my opinion. Much better to put it in the hands of the individual themselves or invest it in NPCs a player does not need to earn favor with. I hate games where earning favor with NPCs is required to get anything done. It's even worse than going hat in hand begging to some other player who happened to start a few months before I did.
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Very well said! That pacing, and especially the logical break, was something I liked very much.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. Within the game there is to be hubs for player activity, from dealing with vendors to selecting new powers / assigning augment sockets, and other stuff including a training facility to test out powers. Outside of the game itself there can be a build planner that can be set to synch up with the game client and set the character to auto-level based on the selections within the build planner - purely optional of course.
You can either go to the place to do the thing, you can set your character to automatically update based on a preplanned build, or you can preplan a build, bring it up when you go to the place to do the thing.
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There's a lot to love here.
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This sounds good - in a best of both worlds kinda way.
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds perfect! Each method to be supported by the game -- who could ask for more?
Spurn all ye kindle.
I like the way this sounds, thanks Tannim
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I can remember playing Diablo II on Battle.net with other players and calling "DING!" in chat whenever going up in level. Suffice it to say that the tradition of having a "DING!" at advancing a level is pretty well ingrained after over a decade of online gaming.
If there's no "DING!" indicator, I'm pretty sure we'd have some rather unhappy customers making complaints about it in the forums.
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I'd like to see this in action to get an idea of how it works but I won't dismiss it outright. There is something to be said for being able to level on the fly.
Something I did for the AE was design missions for new players or players with new ATs. One mission had a Defender ally, one had a Brick, one had a Blaster and so on. It let players get a feel for what it was like to have a particular AT running with them. The last in the series was a whole team, one of each basic AT, to run with the character.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
The cool part of this is that not only would it satisfy the "in-game logistics" of whether or not you like to spend real time going to a trainer NPC to level or just want to "auto-level" but it also covers the character concept details of how you want to roleplay your character.
For instance if you're playing some kind of marital artist character it might make sense to actually go to an NPC and get directly trained up like that. On the other hand if you're playing some kind of telekinetic controller it might not make any sense to interact with a NPC in order to "level-up" - in that case the increase in power would be internalized based on your own experience and not subject to anything related to an outside "trainer".
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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How does someone level up a marital artist, Lothic? ;)
Well you start by not harping on a minor bit of typing dysgraphia. Obviously I meant to say "martial" not "marital". ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
You can totally level up a marital artist. There are "awful" wedding singers/bands that come cheap and "good" ones that charge an arm and a leg. Then of course you could just get a DJ, but some of them suck too and others are better, so same deal.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Listen, bub. I was hired to play Eternal Flame sixteen times, and I'm playin' it sixteen times. Ya wanna run out of music before the party's over?
Okay, Pengy, you've won this round, but know this: Radiac does the Electric Slide for nobody. I'll Macarena ONCE, I'll do the Y.M.C.A. all you want. I'll TRY to do that messed-up dance from the R.E.M. video for the song "Stand", but that's as far as I go. ;)
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R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising