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Non Human forms

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Cedd66
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Non Human forms

I know in Coh that they had the peacebrings and warshades which were not allways in houman form could there be a non humaniod form in the character builder ?

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I think the general consensus

I think the general consensus is to look into non-human forms sometime post launch if even doable. At the very least no one is against the idea.

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Desired? Yes.

Desired? Yes.
Priority? No. Not yet ...

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Desired? Yes.
Priority? No. Not yet ...

Hey! Just a flea-pickin' minute, Red! :P

*Some* of us do *not* want to be depicted as thrice-accursed cat-girls! I think that fully-articulated kitty models with costuming capabilities should be a high prio- ... WHAT?! There's a cosmic calamity on the other side of the multiverse? I guess my Furless sidekick will have to patrol for me (and continue this discussion) while I save the multiverse ... again! *sighs*

*leaps through the wall, her purple and pink blur speeding through neighboring galaxies and dimensions in the time between yoctoseconds*

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Random question, Amerikatt..

Random question, Amerikatt..

Would you be appeased with a vanity pet of a feline?
Would you prefer a combat pet?

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Amerikatt wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:

*Some* of us do *not* want to be depicted as thrice-accursed cat-girls!

Sadly the Devs have already said they're only going to concentrate on a single male and female human body model to start.

But maybe as an alternative to completely non-human models they could allow for options for radically different animal-like animations using the humanoid forms. Pairing that idea with good costume item options could allow for "psudeo-animals" that could work at least as decent werewolves or weretigers.

I understand that's not exactly what you're looking for. But maybe having a "catgirl" that looks/moves far closer to an actual cat than a kawaii Japanese schoolgirl would be better than nothing. *shrugs*

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I wouldn't say CoH's catgirls

I wouldn't say CoH's catgirls moved anything like a kawaii Japanese schoolgirl. In fact, I'd say they moved just like every other female model in the game.

To the OP, no matter what anyone person might say, a full time non human form would not be popular.

Look back to CoH. Huge build was not popular. Ugly looking characters where not popular.

CO...again...pretty is the norm.

TOR...fat option was least used option. When used, you'd often find it a joke character as well.

Generally the audience wants human looking and pretty. :p Forum posters tend to make it seem like it's this big sought after option, it's not. While they may work on it and at some point implement it, I wouldn't bank on it and really it would limit them from focusing on things that would see a lot more use.

This is also one of the reasons I didn't tend to mind CoH starting to sell some costume packs. The popular pieces tended to be the more generic pieces, because they just fit concepts so much easier than some of the wild and wacky even awesome pieces! I loved those level 50 boots in CoH but they weren't the easiest to fit concepts around, compared to say Large Boots (how I miss those in CO).

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I wouldn't say CoH's catgirls moved anything like a kawaii Japanese schoolgirl. In fact, I'd say they moved just like every other female model in the game.

When I said "kawaii Japanese schoolgirl" I simply meant "human being". I would have thought the context was obvious in that case but apparently I was being too tricky with my phrasing again. CoH catgirls moved EXACTLY like a kawaii Japanese schoolgirls because kawaii Japanese schoolgirls are in fact human females just like every other female model in the game.

What I'm talking about is the possibility (very often discussed in other threads in this forum) of the idea of allowing for alternate animation/stance sets the same way CoH offered alternate auras. The idea of course would allow for, once again, a human to run around in a more animal-like stance. Think for instance of Gollum from LotR - he clearly hopped around much differently than say Batman would. This is what I'm talking about when I say you could potentially make a better "catgirl" out of a human female by making her slink around more like Catwoman than say Wonder Woman.

Brand X wrote:

To the OP, no matter what anyone person might say, a full time non human form would not be popular.
Look back to CoH. Huge build was not popular. Ugly looking characters where not popular.
CO...again...pretty is the norm.
TOR...fat option was least used option. When used, you'd often find it a joke character as well.
Generally the audience wants human looking and pretty. :p Forum posters tend to make it seem like it's this big sought after option, it's not. While they may work on it and at some point implement it, I wouldn't bank on it and really it would limit them from focusing on things that would see a lot more use.
This is also one of the reasons I didn't tend to mind CoH starting to sell some costume packs. The popular pieces tended to be the more generic pieces, because they just fit concepts so much easier than some of the wild and wacky even awesome pieces! I loved those level 50 boots in CoH but they weren't the easiest to fit concepts around, compared to say Large Boots (how I miss those in CO).

As to your continuing notion that absolutely no one wants to play anything other than Power Girl clones I just have to say while I would agree with you that many people usually tend to favor "pretty/sexy" females in MMOs that it's by no means 100% of the playerbase. Your idea that it would be a waste of time for the Devs to offer any costume/body options outside of your narrowly focused olympian ideal is basically an argument for the Devs to ONLY give female characters identical cookie cutter appearances that we all must conform to because you would allow us no other option than to all look like perfect Stepford Wives in spandex.

The goal here is to ALWAYS encourage the Devs to give us as many options as possible, even if many of those suggestions are relatively non-mainstream. We all know that they'll never be able to give us everything we want, but at least we'll get as much as we can. When you sit back and keep telling the Devs that we really don't want any costume/body diversity that's exactly what we'll get: cookie cutter superbimbos. I don't categorically hate "superbimbos" - I just don't want to be forced into only being able to play them because we have no other options available. In effect you're encouraging the Devs to slack off here - please quit doing that.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Look back to CoH. Huge build was not popular. Ugly looking characters where not popular.

Define "popular".

Because I saw plenty of huge characters running around Paragon City and the Isles. Just because it was the least used body type does not mean it was not used in significant numbers. As for ugly, I'm going to assume we aren't talking about fashion nightmares here. I loved using the scared face options, on both red and blue side characters. And from the teams I was on I can say I am not the only person who thinks scars are cool. Red side in general used the unattractive faces quite a bit.

I don't argue they were less popular choices, but the number using them was not insignificant.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Look back to CoH. Huge build was not popular. Ugly looking characters where not popular.

Define "popular".
Because I saw plenty of huge characters running around Paragon City and the Isles. Just because it was the least used body type does not mean it was not used in significant numbers. As for ugly, I'm going to assume we aren't talking about fashion nightmares here. I loved using the scared face options, on both red and blue side characters. And from the teams I was on I can say I am not the only person who thinks scars are cool. Red side in general used the unattractive faces quite a bit.
I don't argue they were less popular choices, but the number using them was not insignificant.

BrandX has raised this general argument in other related threads in the past.

I think the basic premise behind it is that the Devs of CoT shouldn't be wasting their time trying to give us "fat sliders" or other features/options that would let us create less than physically perfect characters because the only time those features/options are used (at least in other MMOs) are when a few silly players decide to create non-serious "joke" characters. The idea that anyone would want to use such options in CoT for serious/legitimate RP purposes is something that BrandX doesn't want to accept as a possibility.

There is a legitimate concern that we collectively don't want the Devs to waste time creating options that are so limited in scope that literally only a few people would use them (either seriously or as a joke). But I think the false conclusion BrandX draws is that various costume items or body types can only exist in two states: either they're used by close to 100% of the playerbase or they are used by almost no one. For BrandX there seems to be no in-between. And in such a binary mindset if item/feature X is not one of the "100%" types it does not deserve to exist in the game at all.

I think BrandX and I would agree that the "popular" options/features need to be prioritized. Time and effort are limited resources so obviously the Devs can't give us everything we want all the time. I simply think her definition of what's popular is far too narrow in relation to what the Devs should be striving to accomplish. As a hypothetical let's assume there's a master list with the hundreds of things every player wants from this game. BrandX seems to think the Devs can only focus on the top 10 most important things on that list to the absolute exclusion of everything else. I actually believe the Devs could probably accomplish the top 20 or 30 things on that same list in the same time period. I know they can't do everything, but I do believe they could provide far more relatively "non-mainstream" things than BrandX seems to imagine is possible.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Random question, Amerikatt..
Would you be appeased with a vanity pet of a feline?
Would you prefer a combat pet?

Yes, JayBezz. I would be VERY happy if my Furless companion/sidekick could have a feline combat pet with customizable fur pattern and color (blue; blue-grey). At least it would *look* like they were fighting crime together.

I understand the difficulties of making a standard-sized feline quadraped model which would also have access to the full range of costume options. I can only hope that it can be implemented within the first year of City of Tabbies. I understand that it is not a priority for launch (even to me, whose entire character concept/design is integrally entwined with a very specific type of model).

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I would be gravely

I would be gravely disappointed if the huge models don't have as much care put into them as the regular physiques will haha.

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Brutum wrote:
Brutum wrote:

I would be gravely disappointed if the huge models don't have as much care put into them as the regular physiques will haha.

Again just as FYI for everyone the Devs of CoT have told us there will not be a separate Huge male body model the way there was in CoH. They are going to (at least at first) concentrate only on one universal human male model and one universal human female model.

But don't be misled into thinking we will no longer be able to make "huge" sized characters. The Devs have also told us that the male and female models of CoT should end up being much more scalable/modifiable than they ever were in CoH. This means that these models should be adjustable all the way from tiny to huge sizes or anything in-between. This even allows for "huge female" bodies which as we know weren't even possible in CoH.

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I had hoped they would go

I had hoped they would go with CO's style of sliders but I was unsure. That said I hope they are able to "balance" it more so to speak compared to CO to avoid things like super skinny arms with gigantic hands. Not that giant hands are unacceptable but I'd like to see them in more realistic scenarios only if possible. Such as robotic hands or what have you. How possible that is without limiting other things however I am unsure.

Puny Heroes.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

syntaxerror37 wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Look back to CoH. Huge build was not popular. Ugly looking characters where not popular.

Define "popular".
Because I saw plenty of huge characters running around Paragon City and the Isles. Just because it was the least used body type does not mean it was not used in significant numbers. As for ugly, I'm going to assume we aren't talking about fashion nightmares here. I loved using the scared face options, on both red and blue side characters. And from the teams I was on I can say I am not the only person who thinks scars are cool. Red side in general used the unattractive faces quite a bit.
I don't argue they were less popular choices, but the number using them was not insignificant.

BrandX has raised this general argument in other related threads in the past.
I think the basic premise behind it is that the Devs of CoT shouldn't be wasting their time trying to give us "fat sliders" or other features/options that would let us create less than physically perfect characters because the only time those features/options are used (at least in other MMOs) are when a few silly players decide to create non-serious "joke" characters. The idea that anyone would want to use such options in CoT for serious/legitimate RP purposes is something that BrandX doesn't want to accept as a possibility.
There is a legitimate concern that we collectively don't want the Devs to waste time creating options that are so limited in scope that literally only a few people would use them (either seriously or as a joke). But I think the false conclusion BrandX draws is that various costume items or body types can only exist in two states: either they're used by close to 100% of the playerbase or they are used by almost no one. For BrandX there seems to be no in-between. And in such a binary mindset if item/feature X is not one of the "100%" types it does not deserve to exist in the game at all.
I think BrandX and I would agree that the "popular" options/features need to be prioritized. Time and effort are limited resources so obviously the Devs can't give us everything we want all the time. I simply think her definition of what's popular is far too narrow in relation to what the Devs should be striving to accomplish. As a hypothetical let's assume there's a master list with the hundreds of things every player wants from this game. BrandX seems to think the Devs can only focus on the top 10 most important things on that list to the absolute exclusion of everything else. I actually believe the Devs could probably accomplish the top 20 or 30 things on that same list in the same time period. I know they can't do everything, but I do believe they could provide far more relatively "non-mainstream" things than BrandX seems to imagine is possible.

A bit wrong. I am sure the option would be used by a few serious types in RP purposes. It would just be a very small percentage of the player base.

Go look at other MMOs that give out the player choices picked by most. The trends in MMOs tend to be the same.

I'm not against more options, but with a game that was KS funded and given a date that seems to be behind...I do think it's best to focus on what would be most used and most likely to keep the biggest amount of players.

What I don't imagine is possible is them releasing the game in a timely manner and making a four legged rig that allowed someone to be cat/dog and have all the costume options and sliders, because the players who wants to be a cat/dog will feel cheated if they don't have the same number of costume options and sliders (because they may want their fat dog supervillain).

It's an arguement of time versus numbers. One the CoH devs used themselves. Why they had put some of the costume packs as pay for use, because they didn't think it would be used by the playerbase as a whole and needed to make sure it was worth the time and effort for it.

While I bought every pack they released, let's face it, some of those packs were used less by the player base than others.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I'm not against more options, but with a game that was KS funded and given a date that seems to be behind...I do think it's best to focus on what would be most used and most likely to keep the biggest amount of players.

For what it's worth I share your concerns as to whether or not we're going to get a playable game out of this within a realistic time period. As I've stated in other threads I have decades of professional software engineering experience so I'm well of the issues of managing user expectations and the realities of what can be accomplished by a given development effort. I'm not blindly assuming anything here.

CoH had roughly a decade to amass a huge number of costume/body options so I'm not deluding myself into thinking CoT will have the same library of options on Day One. But by the same token if the only kind of female character I can end up making is some kind of Power Girl clone because CoT only launches with like a dozen costume items and a relatively static, hard-wired body model then it's not going to be judged very favorably either.

Ultimately it's going to be up to the Devs to decide what they prioritize and what they don't. I still remain mildly optimistic that the CoT Devs will be able to surprise us with a range of options/features that we will not have expected was possible given the humble Kickstarter origins. At this point since we know the launch date for this game is probably still years away I don't mind them taking a few months longer to throw in a few more features before launch so that we aren't stuck with the kind of bare-bones environment that it seems like you're expecting we MUST endure here.

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Of course, really it comes

Of course, really it comes down to the devs on what to prioritize, I can only hope they look at the trends in other MMOs and realize some thing are just better bets.

I hope the launch date isn't years away however. Hearing "yeah, we had all this stuff complete before the KS, but after/during the KS were offered this great opportunity and threw it all away to use the newer engine, thusly slowing us down and making it so we don't hit that projected date" is not a good thing.

There is an audience for a new superhero mmo, I just hope it isn't a failed mmo or to late for this one by the time it gets out.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Of course, really it comes down to the devs on what to prioritize, I can only hope they look at the trends in other MMOs and realize some thing are just better bets.
I hope the launch date isn't years away however. Hearing "yeah, we had all this stuff complete before the KS, but after/during the KS were offered this great opportunity and threw it all away to use the newer engine, thusly slowing us down and making it so we don't hit that projected date" is not a good thing.
There is an audience for a new superhero mmo, I just hope it isn't a failed mmo or to late for this one by the time it gets out.

If one of my friends asks me.. I'll make something up like:
- MWM Asked the community "Do you want us to upgrade to a Much Better Engine, but it might mean pushing back the release date?"
- Community responded with "Hell YEA!"

End of story. ;)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Of course, really it comes down to the devs on what to prioritize, I can only hope they look at the trends in other MMOs and realize some thing are just better bets.

While I would agree it may be somewhat useful to compare/contrast what other MMOs are doing when it comes to what should or shouldn't apply to CoT I think you can only carry that mindset so far before you have to realize that CoT is not going to be exactly like every other MMO out there.

I'm willing to argue that maximized costume/body model customization is probably far more important to the average CoT/superhero player than it is to the average TOR, WoW and/or ESO player. You keep saying that the only thing people TEND to do with non-mainstream options is to make joke characters out of them. That's because in most OTHER games costume/body model customization a secondary afterthought that most people don't strongly care about, not a top priority like it is in games like CoH and CoT.

I'm not looking for CoT to become a 100% "Barbie-doll dress up" game. But even you'll have to admit that having far more options for costume/body customization is going to have to be a top priority for CoT because it was one of the great strengths of CoH that set it appart from all the "other" games out there.

Brand X wrote:

I hope the launch date isn't years away however. Hearing "yeah, we had all this stuff complete before the KS, but after/during the KS were offered this great opportunity and threw it all away to use the newer engine, thusly slowing us down and making it so we don't hit that projected date" is not a good thing.
There is an audience for a new superhero mmo, I just hope it isn't a failed mmo or to late for this one by the time it gets out.

Like Izzy implied I'd rather CoT use a graphics engine that has more of a chance to be viable say in 2020 or 2025 than an engine that's technically already out-of-date even in 2015. If switching to UE4 cost us 3 or 6 extra months I'm willing to accept that delay for the overall future of the game.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

If switching to UE4 cost us 3 or 6 extra months I'm willing to accept that delay for the overall future of the game.

+1

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

If switching to UE4 cost us 3 or 6 extra months I'm willing to accept that delay for the overall future of the game.

+1

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

While I would agree it may be somewhat useful to compare/contrast what other MMOs are doing when it comes to what should or shouldn't apply to CoT I think you can only carry that mindset so far before you have to realize that CoT is not going to be exactly like every other MMO out there.
I'm willing to argue that maximized costume/body model customization is probably far more important to the average CoT/superhero player than it is to the average TOR, WoW and/or ESO player. You keep saying that the only thing people TEND to do with non-mainstream options is to make joke characters out of them. That's because in most OTHER games costume/body model customization a secondary afterthought that most people don't strongly care about, not a top priority like it is in games like CoH and CoT.
I'm not looking for CoT to become a 100% "Barbie-doll dress up" game. But even you'll have to admit that having far more options for costume/body customization is going to have to be a top priority for CoT because it was one of the great strengths of CoH that set it appart from all the "other" games out there.
Brand X wrote:
I hope the launch date isn't years away however. Hearing "yeah, we had all this stuff complete before the KS, but after/during the KS were offered this great opportunity and threw it all away to use the newer engine, thusly slowing us down and making it so we don't hit that projected date" is not a good thing.
There is an audience for a new superhero mmo, I just hope it isn't a failed mmo or to late for this one by the time it gets out.

Like Izzy implied I'd rather CoT use a graphics engine that has more of a chance to be viable say in 2020 or 2025 than an engine that's technically already out-of-date even in 2015. If switching to UE4 cost us 3 or 6 extra months I'm willing to accept that delay for the overall future of the game.

I dunno Lothic. A lot of MMOs say they're not going to be like other MMOs, and even when they aren't players themselves say they are. Seriosuly, how many times do you hear WoW clone? I heard CoH called a WoW clone and I had to tell them "CoH came out first!"

But CoT is going to be different how from CO, DCUO, CoH or even WoW? I loved CoH, I actually thought it's powers on CD was better than a GCD system. That and sliders with a costume that can be anything I want. AION has sliders and costume options, just done in a different way.

Reading forums and talking to guild members, body sliders is something I think a lot of players want now. I never actually hear anyone say "not important" but I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks that.

And CoH was no different with the joke characters. And in truth, I probably only noticed them because I join the RP servers (unofficial RP servers) so when I see a joke character that ruins my immersion it makes me notice. When I was on Victory in CoH, I didn't care. Put me on a RP server, I start caring and taking notice.

And I admit, I probably shouldn't. Look at CoH, it had lore and most RPers ignored it anyways.

All that said, I think the four legged rig would be one of the least used options, especially if it lacked in costume options.

As for the engine, my thought is we're out longer than 3-6months...it's just the feeling I get seeing where we look to be at. :/

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Look back to CoH. Huge build was not popular. Ugly looking characters where not popular.

Just a comment on this particular point--about half my toons used modified versions the Huge build, and I don't remember it being unusual at all to see a Huge build. It wasn't as common as a normal build, but it wasn't uncommon at all. Just less common. Definitely not rare by any stretch.

And if you look to the greater genre: Hulk, Thing, Sasquatch, Beast, Juggernaut, Solomon Grundy, Korg, Kilowog (Green Lantern)... it just isn't uncommon at all.

With a little tweaking: Darkseid, Odin (And Zeus and Highfather and pretty much all of the Skyfathers), Galactus, Kalibak, Blastaar, half of Jack Kirby's characters.

Whether you're talking about comic books or CoH, the huge build was always well represented and a significant part of the genre. That's... probably why they put it in CoH in the first place.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Look back to CoH. Huge build was not popular. Ugly looking characters where not popular.

Just a comment on this particular point--about half my toons used modified versions the Huge build, and I don't remember it being unusual at all to see a Huge build. It wasn't as common as a normal build, but it wasn't uncommon at all. Just less common. Definitely not rare by any stretch.
And if you look to the greater genre: Hulk, Thing, Sasquatch, Beast, Juggernaut, Solomon Grundy, Korg, Kilowog (Green Lantern)... it just isn't uncommon at all.
With a little tweaking: Darkseid, Odin (And Zeus and Highfather and pretty much all of the Skyfathers), Galactus, Kalibak, Blastaar, half of Jack Kirby's characters.
Whether you're talking about comic books or CoH, the huge build was always well represented and a significant part of the genre. That's... probably why they put it in CoH in the first place.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

What I don't imagine is possible is them releasing the game in a timely manner and making a four legged rig that allowed someone to be cat/dog and have all the costume options and sliders, because the players who wants to be a cat/dog will feel cheated if they don't have the same number of costume options and sliders (because they may want their fat dog supervillain).

Brand X wrote:

All that said, I think the four legged rig would be one of the least used options, especially if it lacked in costume options.

Just so that you're not confused I don't have any specific desire for a "four legged rig" for player characters. I might try one if it were available but it's not high on my personal wish list for CoT. I still personally think it would be much easier for the Devs to create an optional set of animations that would make the standard human shaped model move around as if it were animalistic (again think Gollum from LoTR and/or a humanoid werewolf) but again that wouldn't be something that would be incredibly important to me.

But just because I don't have an extreme desire for these things doesn't mean I can't empathize with people like Amerikatt who obviously has a great stake invested in the idea of having a character which is cat-shaped. I personally wanted flapping wings and moving tails when I first started playing CoH and luckily (after waiting several years) I finally got those things. Maybe a few years after CoT launches Amerikatt will get her cat-body regardless of how "popular" that body type would be.

I tend to believe our Devs are sensible people and will prioritize the right things in the right order. I think you need to get over this pseudo-paranoia that they'll try to develop everything all at once just because people throw a million suggestions at them. Just because people toss out that they want "four legged rigs" doesn't mean the Devs are going to drop everything else in favor of every random whim. But by the same token if no one mentions these things at all they may never happen, even in the years ahead when there's plenty of time to accomplish them.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
What I don't imagine is possible is them releasing the game in a timely manner and making a four legged rig that allowed someone to be cat/dog and have all the costume options and sliders, because the players who wants to be a cat/dog will feel cheated if they don't have the same number of costume options and sliders (because they may want their fat dog supervillain).

Brand X wrote:
All that said, I think the four legged rig would be one of the least used options, especially if it lacked in costume options.

Just so that you're not confused I don't have any specific desire for a "four legged rig" for player characters. I might try one if it were available but it's not high on my personal wish list for CoT. I still personally think it would be much easier for the Devs to create an optional set of animations that would make the standard human shaped model move around as if it were animalistic (again think Gollum from LoTR and/or a humanoid werewolf) but again that wouldn't be something that would be incredibly important to me.
But just because I don't have an extreme desire for these things doesn't mean I can't empathize with people like Amerikatt who obviously has a great stake invested in the idea of having a character which is cat-shaped. I personally wanted flapping wings and moving tails when I first started playing CoH and luckily (after waiting several years) I finally got those things. Maybe a few years after CoT launches Amerikatt will get her cat-body regardless of how "popular" that body type would be.
I tend to believe our Devs are sensible people and will prioritize the right things in the right order. I think you need to get over this pseudo-paranoia that they'll try to develop everything all at once just because people throw a million suggestions at them. Just because people toss out that they want "four legged rigs" doesn't mean the Devs are going to drop everything else in favor of every random whim. But by the same token if no one mentions these things at all they may never happen, even in the years ahead when there's plenty of time to accomplish them.

So like beast stance in CO?

Believe we also had something akin to that in the last days of CoH, didn't we?

Less paranoia, and more a thought on, requesting things that would seem to get used more than a walking crab or flying squid shape. I continue to stay paranoid that the game will finish and look like CoD or Skyrim in terms of character looks :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Less paranoia, and more a thought on, requesting things that would seem to get used more than a walking crab or flying squid shape. I continue to stay paranoid that the game will finish and look like CoD or Skyrim in terms of character looks :p

I personally wasn't a big fan of the whole Kheldian thing either. I didn't like the alternate forms or the prefab origin. I always thought they should have just taken the human PB and WS forms and called them "Cosmic" and "Void" or something like that. BUT, some people liked it a lot.

I also don't think that a CoD or Skyrim grittiness would fit the game, but from what we've seen and heard from the devs, I just don't think that is a likely danger. You're should be safe :).

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Empyrean, consider that

Empyrean, consider that Kheldians were released in [i]Issue 3[/i]. There was a whole lot of stuff the game engine couldn't do then that it was able to do later on.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Empyrean, consider that Kheldians were released in Issue 3. There was a whole lot of stuff the game engine couldn't do then that it was able to do later on.

Wow. That early. I'd forgotten. It really amazing what the devs tortured out of that poor engine--especially towards the end. Exciting to think of the possibilities when starting with and engine like UE 4.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Empyrean, consider that Kheldians were released in Issue 3. There was a whole lot of stuff the game engine couldn't do then that it was able to do later on.

Wow. That early. I'd forgotten. It really amazing what the devs tortured out of that poor engine--especially towards the end. Exciting to think of the possibilities when starting with and engine like UE 4.

CoH didn't launch with a lot of things that we ended up taking for granted towards the end of the game: capes, wings, animated tails, Masterminds, etc.

The critical difference between CoH and CoT will be to see how much the Devs will be able to leverage in terms of modern software technology. There will likely be things that were incredibly hard and/or impossible for CoH's engine to do that may very well be almost trivial for UE4 to accomplish. For instance it took a huge amount of time and effort to get capes working in CoH because at the time they had to effectively create the low-level cloth animation physics from scratch. I suspect it would only take a tiny fraction of that original effort to get capes working in UE4.

Now I'm not trying to imply that UE4 is magical enough that it could let anyone create CoT in a day - clearly the Devs of this game still have a lot of work to do. I simply believe that many of the battles that took the CoH Devs years to accomplish have already been overcome by time and technology. CoT may not launch with all the features CoH had in November 2012, but it could very well launch with a surprising mix of other features that may not have ever been possible in CoH even if it had survived for 20 years or more.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

So like beast stance in CO?
Believe we also had something akin to that in the last days of CoH, didn't we?

Yeah, we had Beast Run (purchased in the store I believe) that made your character run at high speed on all fours. If you left it toggled on while idle, your character would stand in a wolfman crouch.

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

Brand X wrote:
So like beast stance in CO?
Believe we also had something akin to that in the last days of CoH, didn't we?
Yeah, we had Beast Run (purchased in the store I believe) that made your character run at high speed on all fours. If you left it toggled on while idle, your character would stand in a wolfman crouch.

Exactly. The CoH Devs were able to create a set of animations for the Beast Run power that were more or less an equivalent to CO's beast stance. If CoT offers a selectable stance system along the lines of CO then it's always possible they'll offer something like "beast" that won't require the side effect of running a power to get - it would just be your default stance.

From there it's not much of a leap to suggest that if CoT has a "beast/wolfman" stance then it could also offer a "cat person" stance which would be more directly like what Catwoman (or in our case Amerikatt) might use to move as closely to a cat as a person-shaped character could get. Again not suggesting anything incredibly unrealistic here...

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I'd like to give a shout out

I'd like to give a shout out to the Crab Soldier Backpack that some Soldiers Of Arachnos wound up wearing. It was definitely a "non-human" feature which added a lot of presence to the characters that wore them. The animations for the legs on the backpack, even when not being directly engaged, were always somewhat hypnotic and fascinating to watch, simply because the legs were never completely still.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Less paranoia, and more a thought on, requesting things that would seem to get used more than a walking crab or flying squid shape. I continue to stay paranoid that the game will finish and look like CoD or Skyrim in terms of character looks :p

I personally wasn't a big fan of the whole Kheldian thing either. I didn't like the alternate forms or the prefab origin. I always thought they should have just taken the human PB and WS forms and called them "Cosmic" and "Void" or something like that. BUT, some people liked it a lot.
I also don't think that a CoD or Skyrim grittiness would fit the game, but from what we've seen and heard from the devs, I just don't think that is a likely danger. You're should be safe :).

I think I'm going to be nervous about it until I see it. So far from what I've seen of Valiance Online and Heroes & Villains, they have a very much western look and look a lot of like. So, I can't help but think CoT will feel the exact same need to be...those.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I think I'm going to be nervous about it until I see it. So far from what I've seen of Valiance Online and Heroes & Villains, they have a very much western look and look a lot of like. So, I can't help but think CoT will feel the exact same need to be...those.

Wait... I think I missed something. What do you mean "western look?" American comic books are by definition "western".

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I think I'm going to be nervous about it until I see it. So far from what I've seen of Valiance Online and Heroes & Villains, they have a very much western look and look a lot of like. So, I can't help but think CoT will feel the exact same need to be...those.

Wait... I think I missed something. What do you mean "western look?" American comic books are by definition "western".

By western look, I meant from a game stand point, not comic. And by that, I meant CoD and Skyrim. If either of those looked like Michael Turner, Humberto Ramos, Tony Daniel, J. Scott Cambell had done the artwork, I'd be way more interested in those games.

And sadly, even on the CoH forums, there were people who wished for that terrible CoD/Skyrim look. NVM that it's awful, but it gives them their realism! And looking at two other superhero mmos, they look to want to go for a realistic look while avoiding any real comic style. CoH looked like it had a comic style to me. The other two superhero mmos being worked on, do not. They just throw in superhero style outfits (like tights).

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

CoH looked like it had a comic style to me. The other two superhero mmos being worked on, do not. They just throw in superhero style outfits (like tights).

City of Heroes did a lot of SIMPLIFYING in its look. Polygon counts. Texture maps. Bump maps. Color palette. Etc. etc. You get the idea. But what all of that did was produce a somewhat ... spare ... aesthetic look that carried a lot symbology in a relatively simple and immediate way. The result was a sort of "visual language" that essentially simplified things and presented them in an accessible, representational manner.

That's why you had legacy options of "tights" that for all intents and purposes were nothing more than body paint ... but they still "worked" because they were good enough at distances beyond Up Close And Personal (ie. melee range). This yielded a decidedly 3D polygon feel to the game which gave it spatial volume and "solidity" that then worked hand in hand with the game's FX and sound engineering. It was accessible and intuitive ... and it just worked.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
CoH looked like it had a comic style to me. The other two superhero mmos being worked on, do not. They just throw in superhero style outfits (like tights).
City of Heroes did a lot of SIMPLIFYING in its look. Polygon counts. Texture maps. Bump maps. Color palette. Etc. etc. You get the idea. But what all of that did was produce a somewhat ... spare ... aesthetic look that carried a lot symbology in a relatively simple and immediate way. The result was a sort of "visual language" that essentially simplified things and presented them in an accessible, representational manner.
That's why you had legacy options of "tights" that for all intents and purposes were nothing more than body paint ... but they still "worked" because they were good enough at distances beyond Up Close And Personal (ie. melee range). This yielded a decidedly 3D polygon feel to the game which gave it spatial volume and "solidity" that then worked hand in hand with the game's FX and sound engineering. It was accessible and intuitive ... and it just worked.

And the reason that it worked is very analogous to the reason why classic comic book art worked.

Classic comic book artists were trying to be as realistic as possible under ridiculous monthly deadlines for their art. This led to a necessary simplification that at its best became an almost zen-art like reduction to the essential. The iconic.

The absolute beauty of this? The perfect genre-specific art style is also relatively easy to graphically create and to render. Even if we use current movies as an example, the relatively clean, simple, iconic style dominates.

And everything I've seen from the devs seems to indicate this is the overall look that they are going for.

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Tiger Blood!

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I have seen way too many IMO

I have seen way too many IMO arguments about humanoid figures, when this is supposed to be about the possibility of non-humanoids, such as centaurs and animal forms. Best would be to stick to that instead of arguing PRIORITIZATION. Yes, lots will have to wait, but, here we should be making suggestions for use in updates... BTW, the werewolf in CoX at the end was cool, and, I'd like to see other things as well... But, will be willing to wait for them... Unfortunately, I don't have an image of 2 pennies to add...

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Garrilon wrote:
Garrilon wrote:

I have seen way too many IMO arguments about humanoid figures, when this is supposed to be about the possibility of non-humanoids, such as centaurs and animal forms. Best would be to stick to that instead of arguing PRIORITIZATION. Yes, lots will have to wait, but, here we should be making suggestions for use in updates... BTW, the werewolf in CoX at the end was cool, and, I'd like to see other things as well... But, will be willing to wait for them... Unfortunately, I don't have an image of 2 pennies to add...

Just how forums go. We have a thread about wanting perky breasts and people saying no they want them old saggy and able to toss of their shoulder.

Just how it goes. I think even more so in a game that has shown us very little and how we all really want it to succeed.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Garrilon wrote:
I have seen way too many IMO arguments about humanoid figures, when this is supposed to be about the possibility of non-humanoids, such as centaurs and animal forms. Best would be to stick to that instead of arguing PRIORITIZATION. Yes, lots will have to wait, but, here we should be making suggestions for use in updates... BTW, the werewolf in CoX at the end was cool, and, I'd like to see other things as well... But, will be willing to wait for them... Unfortunately, I don't have an image of 2 pennies to add...

Just how forums go. We have a thread about wanting perky breasts and people saying no they want them old saggy and able to toss of their shoulder.
Just how it goes. I think even more so in a game that has shown us very little and how we all really want it to succeed.

I agree that how hard we are all chomping at the bit for City of Titans creates discussion that at times gets a bit speculative, intense and far afield. It's an understandable dynamic.

I do want to point out, though, that most MMO's in history would have shown us absolutely nothing--often not even a name--this early in development.

So, the real reason that we're all hopped up on anticipation isn't that they haven't shown us much--it's that we even know about such a young project and have been shown anything at all.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Of course, really it comes down to the devs on what to prioritize, I can only hope they look at the trends in other MMOs and realize some thing are just better bets.
I hope the launch date isn't years away however. Hearing "yeah, we had all this stuff complete before the KS, but after/during the KS were offered this great opportunity and threw it all away to use the newer engine, thusly slowing us down and making it so we don't hit that projected date" is not a good thing.
There is an audience for a new superhero mmo, I just hope it isn't a failed mmo or to late for this one by the time it gets out.

We shouldn't have to worry about this game being "late". As long as the devs can set a timeline where they can have a live demonstration of anything entertaining at some large scale event in the near/medium future, then the masses won't lose hope. A game play demo or a costume creator preview should be enough to keep the excitement rolling

E-mail newsletters and semi-frequent youtube videos would help greatly as well

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Garrilon wrote:
I have seen way too many IMO arguments about humanoid figures, when this is supposed to be about the possibility of non-humanoids, such as centaurs and animal forms. Best would be to stick to that instead of arguing PRIORITIZATION. Yes, lots will have to wait, but, here we should be making suggestions for use in updates... BTW, the werewolf in CoX at the end was cool, and, I'd like to see other things as well... But, will be willing to wait for them... Unfortunately, I don't have an image of 2 pennies to add...

Just how forums go. We have a thread about wanting perky breasts and people saying no they want them old saggy and able to toss of their shoulder.
Just how it goes. I think even more so in a game that has shown us very little and how we all really want it to succeed.

Stop giving us "new" ideas that we will want to tell the Devs to give us RITE NAO! I had no desire to have breasts in this game that were [color=red][NOTE: The following is a link to a relatively naughty screen capture pic of an otherwise network TV safe cartoon - view at your own risk][/color] "[url=http://pool.theinfosphere.org/images/b/b2/Lady_Farnsworth.jpeg]old, saggy and able to toss over my shoulder[/url]" but once you suggested it I now want it as a top priority... lol

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Well I can chime in that I

Well I can chime in that I have use of a snake body like ...well...the Snakes from CoX. Wish they could have made those available at the time.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Garrilon wrote:
I have seen way too many IMO arguments about humanoid figures, when this is supposed to be about the possibility of non-humanoids, such as centaurs and animal forms. Best would be to stick to that instead of arguing PRIORITIZATION. Yes, lots will have to wait, but, here we should be making suggestions for use in updates... BTW, the werewolf in CoX at the end was cool, and, I'd like to see other things as well... But, will be willing to wait for them... Unfortunately, I don't have an image of 2 pennies to add...

Just how forums go. We have a thread about wanting perky breasts and people saying no they want them old saggy and able to toss of their shoulder.
Just how it goes. I think even more so in a game that has shown us very little and how we all really want it to succeed.

Stop giving us "new" ideas that we will want to tell the Devs to give us RITE NAO! I had no desire to have breasts in this game that were [NOTE: The following is a link to a relatively naughty screen capture pic of an otherwise network TV safe cartoon - view at your own risk] "old, saggy and able to toss over my shoulder" but once you suggested it I now want it as a top priority... lol

Heh...can thank a coworker for that one ;p

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Hmm...

Hmm...

I see a couple of problems with perception bouncing off one another in this thread.

I agree with those who say it is vital to remember that the CoH character creator on the day they shut down the servers bore very little resemblance to the character creator that was available the day the game went live. Three (or was it four?) graphic artists and ten years created a catalog of options that would be impossible for any programming team on Earth to implement with a realistic development schedule. I am sure they will do their best to provide a good variety of options, but I'm equally sure that if this game makes into the retail space, the character creator will be much closer to the Issue 1 original than the Issue 23 final version. If we're really, really lucky, we'll get something similar to the Issue 11 catalog, but even that might be too much to hope for.

In the meantime. The quality of tools available to modern developers is so much greater than what Jack Emmert had available while developing CoH that it boggles the mind. For example, Mixamo Fuse is a free humanoid game character model builder that offers a range of flexibility far beyond anything that was available the entire time CoH was online, and it only shut down two years ago. If City of Titans comes out with even half the options available in Mixamo Fuse it will be more than enough to keep me satisfied.

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Horse sized and small real

Horse sized and small real size fox forms would be nice. Obviously Multi Tail support options.
The ability to "Carry someone" would be awesome. Animal forms could be riden and humans forms could carry in their arms. Actually have fire rescue missions using the animation.

DO NOT pull a WoW and make animal forms ... any of them ... single gendered. The Druid Stag Travel Form is male even if all other forms are female. Hate that.

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Revolution wrote:
Revolution wrote:

Well I can chime in that I have use of a snake body like ...well...the Snakes from CoX. Wish they could have made those available at the time.

Ya, Lamias!! And, other Monster-Girls/Guys!! How about Ooze types like perhaps the T-1000 from T-2... Or a travel power... Modify horse type animation for a humanoid torso instead of horse head for centaur types..
Multiple tails... Perhaps even Anime type faces...

Here is a quote: "Put a D&D player in the same room as a Hentai fan and you get Monstergirls."

revolution
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All non-humanoid rigs will

All non-humanoid rigs will most likely be post issue 1, unfortunately. We may get more, but bipeds are definitely front and center. When we get the skeletal systems worked out to our liking it may go faster than we thought.

Caveat: I'm not tech.

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Revolution wrote:
Revolution wrote:

All non-humanoid rigs will most likely be post issue 1, unfortunately. We may get more, but bipeds are definitely front and center. When we get the skeletal systems worked out to our liking it may go faster than we thought.
Caveat: I'm not tech.

oh, I completely understand!
*makes log in logbook, so later can completely rake Revolution over the coals when the option I only sort of/not really want fails to appear issue 1*
what!?! *innocent smile*

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Garrilon wrote:
I have seen way too many IMO arguments about humanoid figures, when this is supposed to be about the possibility of non-humanoids, such as centaurs and animal forms. Best would be to stick to that instead of arguing PRIORITIZATION. Yes, lots will have to wait, but, here we should be making suggestions for use in updates... BTW, the werewolf in CoX at the end was cool, and, I'd like to see other things as well... But, will be willing to wait for them... Unfortunately, I don't have an image of 2 pennies to add...

Just how forums go. We have a thread about wanting perky breasts and people saying no they want them old saggy and able to toss of their shoulder.
Just how it goes. I think even more so in a game that has shown us very little and how we all really want it to succeed.

I think some people care a little bit too much about breasts.....

And this is coming from a 17 year old straight dude (Although apparently I am a anomaly for not caring about that)

In all seriousness though as long as the core game is up and working efficiently I can care less about a few cosmetic options being delayed until after launch.....

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I want chicken heads and of

I want chicken heads and of course, I want them nao