While I do hope that CoT will have similar mechanics and styles at when it comes out (Such as slotting powers, Endurance, each class being unique and capable, ect ect) I also think that with a fresh new start CoT should have things that would have been difficult or downright impossible for the CoH engine.
Let's face it, as innovative and creative as the Positron, Castle and the like were the game was showing some age when it the plug got pulled. Champions Online and DC Universe Online are newer, shinier and has innovations that City of Heroes never would.
Sure, CoH was the superhero game, even after CO and DCUO came out. But both games also contain good ideas that can be used to make CoT even better. Hence this thread, as part “I'd like that' and part 'here's an idea' to the devs.
Number Ten: Fighting Alongside the Settings Heroes
Know what was cool about DCUO? You know, once you pushed past the awful character creator and the unskippable tutorial mission? The end of the first mission line had you fighting alongside one of the DC characters. It was pretty cool to fight Gorilla Grodd alongside the Flash. Can you imagine how CoH would have been if you fought alongside Minx? Or Ms. Liberty? Or the Back Alley Brawler?
It wouldn't be every mission, of course. I would suggest that it would happen at the end of one of the first quest lines, and others sprinkled throughout the game. Because the times you did fight alongside some of the notable characters in Paragon City it felt like something was going down.
Number Nine: Power Armor Power Set
If I can say one thing for CO, they have a lot of good power sets that can be mixed and matched. Sure, I'd still prefer my Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker to it's Might counterpart (And it's non-existent DCUO 'We Have No Physical Powerset' counterpart) but it's still damn cool. But looking back City of Heroes really lacked a good way to make a classic Iron Man style character. Sure, a Force Field/Energy Blast Defender would work, but I can't help but feel a dedicated power set would work better. I've set this one low on the list because, quite honestly, I don't think it's as high a priority.
Number Eight: Wider Costume Options
If there was one thing Champions Online had over City of Heroes it was the character creator. Sure, CoH had an awesome designer, but CO flat out blew it from the water. To be fair, that's mostly because CO was made later.
Aside from the ability to have 4 colors per costume piece instead of two (And DCUO's 3 colors total) they had more options. A Chest Wear slot to have a piece of, say, armor over your chest or a bandolier. A Bracer slot for bracers. Leg Accessories for pistols and swords. The CO character creator is one to be admirered.
Number Seven: Gear
The CoH system was great. You gained powers, then slots to enhance those powers. You didn't gain stats by putting on a weird mask, or a cape that dropped off an enemy, it came from the powers.
But maybe a having a Gear system atop of that could provide more variety?
While the bulk of the character’s power and ability should still come from the slotted powers, maybe add gear that offers small stat bonues? Extra HP, a slight attack bonus, a defense bonus, extra regen... Something that would effect the character, but not be the end all and be all.
Number Six: Vehicles
Champions vehicles are fun. Sure, they're way overpowered, but most missions where you'd want the firepower doesn't allow for them. However, in addition to looking cool thay're a good way to get around for characters who don't fly or run really fast.
CoT vehicles don't need to have weapons, or abilities. It could be just a case of 'gets me to point a to b really fast' be it in a car, plane, copter or bike.
Sides, don't we all want a something-mobile?
Number Five: Pet Skins
Remember when you played a Mastermind and summoned all your robots? And how your bio said you built them yourself?
Why did they look like everyone else's robots?
CO allows for those who use pets to choose between a small selection of different skins. Surely for our pet class we can get something like that?
Number Four: CharacterName@GloabalName
Have you ever recalled a moment when you made that character? You spent so much time making him or her, getting the clothing options and colors just right before typing in the name and hitting the create button...
And the name is taken...
Yeah, happens too often, huh?
Never happens in Champions Online though. You can pick any (Non-restricted) name you'd like and make that character. So long as you didn't try making two characters with the same name.
This was done by attaching the global/user name onto the character name. Sure you could disable seeing the global/user names in the chat if you wanted, but you'd be able to know that this Super X was different from the one you teamed up with last week, and also meant that a lid wasn't kept on your character due to the inability to come up with a good name that isn't taken five years after people have taken a lot of good names.
Number Three: New Travel Power Pools
We all know our classic four CoH Travel Powers; Super Leaping, Flight, Super Speed and Teleportation. Some people also used Ninja Run in combination with Sprint as a pseudo travel power.
While all these should be brought back, what about DCUO's Acrobatics and CO's Grappling Gun? With Acrobatics you could climb walls up and down, as well as moving faster. You wouldn't need to glide either aand you can have grappling hooks as well it's own set. And it would be the Spider-Man 60's style 'swing off of air' so as to not limit what you can do or where you can go.
In addition both could have effective power pools of their own with Acrobatics adding in a lunging strike ala CO's various Lunge attacks, a kicking attack and maybe something like a backflip to retreat from combat. Grappling Gun could have alternate skins/animations to look like webbing or metal cables coming from the wrists, as well as an ability to pull a target to you, or yourself to the target.
Also, Super Speeding up walls would be awesome too.
Number Two: The Vault
One neat thing about DCUO is at level 6 you get access to the Vault. The Vault is a small, single room level where you go to to smash presents for prizes. Typically it's just cash, and not that much either, but there are also costume drops.
While I hate the fact that DCUO requires hours of game play to get good costumes for your character, and limits what you start with heavily, the idea of getting certain good pieces from a Vault-like level is appealing. Like the Vault it should be a once a day thing (20 Hour Timer) and be fast to get through.
Number One: Cinematics
While CoH had it's own cut scenes, and some used very effectively (Such as hiding the guy who plotted to kill Statesman) I think it would benefit from better and more stylish cut scenes. CO has a couple, like in the Whiteout missions, but there's also the DCUO style ones after the end of a quest line where it looks ripped from a comic book as a character narrates. It's plenty awesome.
Anyway, those are just the top ten things I'd like to see implemented into CoT. Of course it'll be up to the makers to decided what takes priority, what fits their vision and what doesn't... But I do hope it gives them ideas.
And making Travel Powers totally separate from the rest of your powers. Maybe two travel powers and you can earn the use of another travel power through a mission?
I hadn't thought of that.
Maybe choose at the start/post tutorial which Travel Power pool with getting that travel power for free you can take from at the start then a later mission (30ish, if we return to the Level 50 cap) you can unlock access to the others, but picking a second Travel Power costs a power pick?
I know one of my old toons, a Dark/Dark/Soul Defender took both Teleportation and Flight, mostly for theme.
That was a kick ass toon. Sure, took awhile to kill anything, but very survivable and holds just short of a Troller.
Problem I have with no travel power at level 1 is some concepts just need the power at level 1! Flash wouldn't be The Flash, if he wasn't super speeding at level 1!
That's true. But what I mean is at the start or after the tutorial (I would prefer the very start) that you select a Travel Power Pool and get the travel power from it for free (IE; select Flying pool gets you Flight right away) and lets you select the additional powers from that pool (Air Superiority, Hover, Group Fly Afterburner) as you level up. Then after a level 30ish mish/hitting a particular level lets you access the other travel pools and their powers. In this case taking a second Travel Power (IE Super Speed) would cost a power pick, unlike the first one.
I just want to be double sure you get what I mean.
I agree with most of your list but I took exception to some of the points you made about the CO costume creator in relation to CoH.
I'll grant you that it did have a few specific qualities (like the 4 colors thing and a few extra "anchor points" for bracers and leg accessories) that were better than what CoH provided. But hands down the overall visual appeal of the items available in CoH really did blow CO out of the water.
Frankly one of the many reasons I stopped playing CO was the general poor/unappealing/cartoony look and feel everything it had over the supposedly "dated" CoH costume system. It might have been the newer game, but I don't think I ever really liked anything I managed to create in CO when compared to the literally hundreds of costumes I made in CoH. YMMV of course but pound for pound CoH still managed to stand up very well in this area against its newer rivals.
So yes if we could borrow the FEW aspects that other games like CO and DCUO uniquely did well in their costume creators and apply those things to everything else CoH did in much superior ways then we'd have an excellent costume creator for CoT.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Re: Gear
No. I do not want to have my abilities tied to my appearance.
With the possible exception of taking a Disadvantage (ala PnP Champions) in the form of a Focus, but that would have to be built into the powerset somehow. And I think that Cryptic would sue since they own the rights to PnP Champions.
This turns out not to be the case.
While the original Champions P&P game (AFAIK) pioneered the concept of the Focus (an item that lets a character do something) as part of the point-based character creation, Foci (along with the rest of the Core Rules) became part of the Hero System along about 5th Edition. And while Cryptic's name and logo (and that of Champions Online) is on the cover of all the latest Champions supplements (6th edition), they appear nowhere on the core rulebooks, or the Bases book, or the Bestiary, or the Martial Arts sourcebook, or the...
Also, if DOJ (dba Hero Games) does have a copyright on the concept of the Focus, they (or their predecessors in copyright) haven't been enforcing it since Steve Jackson Games' GURPS came out back in the mid 80s. While GURPS doesn't use the term "focus", they have still used the concept as a limitation on advantages and disadvantages, the most obvious example in my memory being the reduced value of Bad Sight if you live in an era with corrective lenses.
Finally, nothing in the OP said the gear had to be tied to appearance. In CO, some gear gave costume unlocks in addition to whatever power they gave, but once you unlocked it you had that costume piece, for every character on your account (unless they removed the costume piece later) and could vendorize the item itself. There are some items that change your appearance but don't unlock costume options, but those seem to be more recent exceptions. Over on DCUO, the unlocks are only for the character that equipped the item, but you can still vendorize it afterwards and keep the costume option. In both cases, though, you're generally* free to override the change in your appearance if you just want the power from the item and not the appearance.
That said, I don't want my appearance to be tied to my abilities, either. Or vice versa. A bit of power, sure. Unlocking a costume option, great. But please don't link the two past the unlock. ( And yes, that green glow coming off of my picture (if you can see it) is an example of a power in CO affecting my character's appearance. But it's an effect I like, and it lets other players know I have the aura, and I can turn off the aura for costume contests. And I still wish I could turn it off without turning the power off ^_^)
*Some devices in CO transform you, overwriting both your appearance and your powers while in use, but this seems beyond the scope of the OP.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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Just to point out that a focos (as it appears here) is NOT just limited to the games listed.
In Shadowrun, you could take flaws/spell/ability restrictions where you *needed* something to enable you to use something else. It could be a location or an item....
They were most commonly taken by Magic* based characters. I remember one person whose magic/combat abilities ONLY worked when they were walking upon the lands of their father. Being a native american, that limited him to area's of America where Native Americans lived. He was screwed (or severely weakened magically)IF he was in an airplane, in a different country... you get the idea
Get him on home turf (heh, i made a pun), and he was a *beast* (quite possibly literally).
*Magic in this case, being the typical spellslinger and also physical/magical adepts.
I won't argue that CoH held up very well, and it was still much better then DCUO's, but in my honest opinion the CO CC is the best one of the three, And I always kinda liked that it looked like a comic book.
And only borrow from CO's CC, DCUO CC is a horrible peice of BS.
I meant like gear in Champions Online which has no effect what so ever on your appearance. (Except things like a full set of Questionite Gear, and even then you only get the ability to take on a different appearance, not the need) You can have a funny hat, sunglasses and clown shoes equipped in CO, and it won't change your appearance one bit.
That does happen in DCUO, unless you lock your appearance And I find how DCUO handles costumes to be... very poor..
Gear could be called "Mind, Body and Spirit" or any other number of factors .. but I think it needs to in some way exist.
I would just call it "training".
Crowd Control Enthusiast
CO's costume creator - piece and stylizing aside - is as a system my favorite. I have far more options, scaling, modifying, shaping, and I can make a character that is as asymmetrical or streamlined as I want to make, utilizing whole themes of colors (also something that's nice to have - suggested color groupings)
CoH certainly had quite a few pieces i liked, and I often wish there will be a way to see a costume creator as versatile as CO with the options of CoH.
Also, I'm not opposed to the idea that we earn costume pieces...even CoH had this. It makes a character that can and does utilize them look that much cooler because that costume was EARNED. I feel this often about my transmog gear in WoW and my old vanguard armor set in CoH. Perhaps there's a way of setting up more pieces added as costume drops and mission rewards than what CoH did. That's not to say I want for a neutered "here's 5 complete costume sets and some color options" for starter characters (I'd like whatever is planned for launch to still be available to all players), but some special and really unique items like a notorious villain's suit of power armor, or a master magician's accepted us into his circle, and I have earned those pieces to include in my own costume.
And no, not every post-launch set should be earned, I like the idea that say...if a piece is spandexy, street-wear, readily accessible to a civilian in some form or another, let it be available at start. If it's special and unique like the Vanguard Set, make it something rewarded and earned.
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Yeah. Enhancements in CoH was basically CoH's version of gear. Funny how everyone forgets that.
I found the CO character creator very limiting, so I would disagree with that assessment, too. Still, valid points throughout. I think in another thread a redname has already said they are going with charactername@global, unless someone chimes in with a very good reason not to. Personally, I'd like to see your travel power be something you select at character creation and it just scales with you as you level, without you needing to invest slots into it. Is anyone REALLY excited about triple slotting flight, rather than 4-6 slotting an ability they use in combat?
I agree on the unlocking of some costume items is a good idea, however it should be something that is unlocked once and then for the whole account. That way, no matter what it is, you can have it at level 1 on a new character who might beable to make use of it.
I do think CO has the greatest potential in terms of a costume creator, however, their chosen art style on some pieces was just grrrrrr. Like the chain options! Bracers aren't bad, but *sigh* the Chain Chest Decal is really terrible, and I so miss my chain detail from CoH. :(
Not to mention, CO limits a lot of what you can combine, when really, there shouldn't be a reason to do that.
Also, take note from CO, do no follow their footsteps in what they did with the tailor. Level 1, haven't even gone into tutorial yet...do not limit some of the costume pieces that are generally available at level 1 for everyone else.
Was the worst thing they did. *shakes head* I knew plenty who gave up the game because they thought the creator was lacking, not knowing you have to go through tutorial/get to level 10 to unlock more pieces.
No, no...
I mean a gear system om top of the Enhancement system. The gear system would be for stats rather then then powers, and have less of an overall effect as opposed to the enhancements of powers.
CoH had some limits too, like fewer glove options for long sleeved jackets.
Still, as long as the bulk of the pieces are available from the start like CoH and CO and rather then having to be unlocked like in DCUO (You even have to unlock pieces you didn't pick at the start) then I'm cool with having to unlock/buy the cooler options. (IE Vanguard set, Roman Set, ect)
It would also be cool if, like in CO, costumes were unlocked globally rather then for a single character.
Again the CoH costume creator did have some limits that CO managed to overcome. But frankly if CoT was somehow forced to exactly copy either CoH's or CO's costume creator I'd choose CoH's over CO's in a heartbeat. More oprions don't account for much when most of those options were relatively horrible in comparison.
I still don't understand why people would think (for example) infamous villains would ever share anything they got with virtuous heroes just because they're arbitrarily attached to the same account but I realize a lot of people still want things like this to be "account wide".
I always find it amazing that people can rationalize that all of their individual "characters" in their account are actually some kind multi-avatared single entity just because they share a single "player" who drives them all. I never got to give one of my D&D characters that I played with in one campaign anything to another D&D character I played with in another... just saying.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It has nothing to do with sharing physical items between characters. Some people enjoy unlocking things, and don't care if the rationale behind locking it in the first place makes any sense. Other people want to build their characters (and the look of their characters) to concept right from the start.
I had one character that I pretended had wings until they were added to the game. I had zero characters that forgot their capes at the dry cleaners and adventured 20 levels wearing part of their costumes. My characters just didn't have capes on their everyday costumes until they were account-unlockable.
Making costume unlocks account-wide is a compromise that gives both players much of what they want, and nicely segregates story from game mechanics. Otherwise you get nonsense like "you can't wear your cape because Statesman says."
I tend to think the "solution" to this problem is not in allowing account wide costume unlocks (which you yourself indirectly implied doesn't make much logical sense) but to have the game avoid keeping any costume items "locked" or level-gated in the first place. I know people always argue the point that their "character concepts" require certain items to be account-wide. Wouldn't it be better if the Devs simply avoided trapping any items behind artificial barriers to begin with?
When you get right down to it only maybe around 1% of the costume items available in CoH were ever locked to begin with. Again I know the "account-wide" proponents love to make the case that it was a huge problem in CoH but the reality was that it really wasn't. Thus my point is this: If CoH already only locked a handful of things like this why does the new game have to lock ANYTHING like this? Surely they could come up with other in-game rewards that doesn't include unlocking costume items.
That's my "answer" to this problem... for what it's worth.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Who's rationalizing it that way? o.O To me costume pieces are just about one's look. And I'm pretty sure in D&D I can have my armor look however I want it too. It just wouldn't give the same stats. :p
There are plenty of people who play MMOs who tend to think that their "characters" are just different avatars or manifestations of themselves as the "player" playing the game. They don't see their characters as separate individuals - at best they consider them to be separate inventory bags to hold all of their COMBINED stuff.
This is why the proponents of the account-based mindset want to blur the lines as much as possible with account-wide vaults and (case in point) account wide unlocks. To them when they (the "Player") unlock something they don't see it as an achievement localized to any single character but something that the Player earned in general. Thus they see no reason why they shouldn't automatically benefit from that unlock on any other character they are playing regardless.
I realize that I'll never be able to convince an account-based person that their mindset is fundamentally at odds with the way games like this are based. So the alternative I usually offer is to come up with ways to avoid situations that would encourage account-based thinking to begin with such as to suggest that NO costume items should be locked or level-gated in the first place. It solves the problem by avoiding the need for "accountism" altogether.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Oh! Well, I think some things need good rewards to go after, and costume pieces are good ones. I just know I hated having to wait to use some costume items that I may have had use for at level 1. Like my MA/SH Scrapper in CoH. Wanted the Vanguard shield at level 1, had to wait till like 35. :/ It wasn't a Vanguard shield to my concept :p
Items like bound items, I have no problem with.
CO has a lot of great costume options. I will admit some are 'meh' and other make me go 'WTF', but for the most part I like CO's costumes.
Don't let old CoHers fool you. CoH suffered from the same problem with costume pieces.
Sure CoH had some "stinker" costume options. I'm just basing my opinions here on the "frustration factor" I had while playing both games. I simply recall having a lot harder time trying to put together costumes I could actually tolerate in CO than I ever did in CoH. *shrugs*
Ultimately lets hope CoT learns from these shortcomings and gives us a costume creator that's better than ANYTHING that's come before it. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Now that I'm thinking of it, there is another thing in CO that would be great.
The Nemesis System.
For those not in the know, the you get to level 25 you get a mission in which you get to create, then fight, a villain. He/she and his/her minions then reappear as little missions here and there as you go along. You get to pick his/her power set, power colorization, minion types and ever personality (Although it's only limited to Mastermind, Brute and Joker personalities...)
This could be even better in CoT as your villainous characters could fight your heroes, and your heroes can fight your own villains. You can play both the hero and his arch nemesis!
Yeah I've already seen this suggestion in other threads in this forum. From what I recall CO's Nemesis system was always something that could've been handled better. Maybe once again the CoT folks will take the basic idea and improve on it.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yeah, the CO Nemesis systems needs an overhaul...
Very good idea though, being able to create your own foe.
I like this idea, but I also like the idea of having to "earn" your cool travel power. Maybe have a free travel slot and a pool of basic, watered-down travel powers that you can choose from for that free slot (slower or less maneuverable flight, combat jumping without the steering, subsonic super speed, etc.), then when you get better (lvl 6, 10, whatever) you replace it with a full version of a travel power from a wider selection/variety of options (Flight, jetpack or ride a garbage lid, superspeed running or tunneling, teleport, superjump or bouncing, etc.).
It's always fun to start with the cool toys, but you have a stronger feeling of accomplishment and enjoyment when you have to work for them. (at least I do ... I'm still jealous until I get the cool toys though ^_^)
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I will say this about the two costume creators: They pretty much blow everyone else out of the water.
That said, while CO's creator expanded upon the possibilities that CoH had, I find CO's creator unfriendly. I've had problems trying to pick a color theme: trying to lock down the colors you want doesn't always work for me, and when I try to modify one costume color slot on one costume piece, it can screw everything else up.
But as I've said in other posts, I feel good about what we're going to get from the MWM team. I'll be shocked if the CoT costume creation system isn't a few steps above what's out there right now.
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Really?
I've never had a problem with it, aside from a few minor bugs. And even those are just minor.
I always have to manhandle the colors if I want something more than four basic colors.
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Here is the reason for account wide unlocks of whatever (costumes, travel powers and what not)....you often cannot use it on the toon that unlocks it, either because it does not fit the toon's look or powers..."great finally unlocked that sweet fire cloak...on my dark/rad defender :(" or by the time you finally unlock it, you have leveled past the point of needing it.
By an account unlock, it still rewards the accomplishment, and give you something that you can use on a new toon.
An unlock reward is an accomplishment earned by a CHARACTER, not an account. You don't play the game with your entire account at the same time - you play it with a single character at a time. Once again why would something one of my supervillains managed to accomplish ever benefit one of my superheroes? Are they actually bestest buddies behind my back when I'm not looking?
Despite the total illogic of account-based rewards in this context I'll again just point out if there were no "costume unlocks" to begin with there would be no reason to allow characters to share things with other characters just because they arbitrarily exist on the same account.
Out of all the costume items CoH had available well under 1% were ever "locked" or gated to begin with. Clearly it's a concept that wasn't terribly critical to how CoH worked in general so I'd ask the CoT Devs to not even bother with it as possibility in CoT. Problem solved.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I hope you are aware that one of selling point of CoH was there was no stats (ie strength, dexterity vitality etc)? Being that said I think something like this could work. Lets call the things that can be put on powers enchantments. And lets call things that character can equip (not as outfit changing things) augmentation.
Enchantments changes only that powers variables with relatively bigger ratio while augmentations changes overall variables with small raito (like an enchantment gives %30 damage boost while an augmentation gives %5) And moves set items to augmentations and keeps them in concept (this way it will be simple to keep things balanced). Let enchantments start small (like %5) and as power being used they raise in value (to a maximum of %30)
Paulos, son of Atreos, doesn't have to grind until he gets in sight of the level cap to unlock the ability to be a time-traveling Byzantine cataphract with a stolen Time Guard blaster. He was that at level 1. The player may have had to unlock the ability to make and equip Paulos correctly.
Likewise, the Special Forces sniper who takes his war to the streets can wear his uniform for formal occasions, even if it has U.N.I.T. badges and the special beret, because the player has run a hero through the Infiltrate the UNIT Conspiracy mission arc.
Not games like this. Gear-based non-superhero games where, if munchkins were allowed the budget to build any character concept they want, they would all start with Excalibur and its sheath. Costume unlocks are a offering to people who want to preserve the feeling of accomplishment of finally replacing their noob gear with something nice. Or people who don't like to think of themselves as playing a blind rooftop vigilante, and would rather play a blind rooftop vigilante [i] who's playing a gear-based MMO.[/i]
Hear, hear. Unfortunately, when someone expressed a sentiment like that on the Titan Network forums, the response was that people who feel that way would find something to complain about anyway. Haters gonna hate, basically. It would be nice to keep feature locking right out of character creation, but I think it's an uphill battle. IF the decision of the developers is to lock some part of the character creator behind artificial barriers, then I want to be absolutely certain that it's the [i]account[/i] who unlocks the ability to roll a VEAT, or a werebeast, or a policeman and not a character that does so.
Technically speaking, there were in the form of how much HP they had and attack modifiers.
I play characters in games like these, not accounts. I don't even know how a person would "play" an entire account in order to justify account-based awards.
I realize that many people don't want to believe that games like CoH and CoT are fundamentally character-based or that the only purpose of an "account" is to organize how a player logs into a MMO and pays for their access to the game, not how they should be awarded for global in-game accomplishments they achieve with individual characters. I get that because the "console game" mindset has taken over for most people in the last few years.
Admittedly my background in playing PnP RPGs predates the concept of "accounts" by a few decades. That's why I'm never going to be convinced that the idea that "one of my characters did something so all of them should benefit from that achievement" isn't a completely idiotic and entitlement-driven dose of laziness. Sorry, but like I said I play characters, not accounts. *shrugs*
I suppose we're going to be left to see exactly how CoT handles things. My guess it'll be pretty much like CoH - too much account-iness for my tastes and not enough for others.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
There was stuff though that WAS account unlock in CoX. All of the stuff that was veteran/Paragon points rewards.
Granted, they were not unlocked by one character completing stuff (which in my mind sucked...), but I *can* see it happening in one form or another.
For those altoholics, if there are costume pieces that are unlocked by one character (for whatever reason) and those are account based unlocks. It not only helps out that singular character, but ALL of the characters that you have. So you might not need the whole shebang, but those one or two pieces can help finalise (or provide inspiration) for another character.
I can also see why some people are going to want ALL the costume pieces unlocked at the start (and then have some extra purchasable on the account level.
Personally, because I tend to play one character at a time, and only when I have them at cap (or have achieved x/y/z goal) will I then alt, this gradual account based unlocking is handy... Sure, I might not use it *immediately* but I could use it in the future. Hell I got most of the costume packs that were released, even if i was never going to use them. But if it was *only* usable by a character by doing an arc (capes for example), then I would generally design the costume to not require it, and use one of my bonus costume slots as the alternative.
*Shrugs*
Both have their pros and cons.
Right but none of that was based directly on the in-game achievements of any single character to begin with. I don't have any problem with "account unlocks" that are completely unrelated to playing the game directly, like all that "meta" out-of-game veteran stuff or things you could buy in the cash store. Those are things the player "accomplishes" without the involvement of any character.
Again if there was no such thing as "costume items you could only get by unlocking them in-game" to begin with there wouldn't be any need/desire to share things between characters. So in effect your statement here is exactly what I'm proposing as well.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I would rather suffer the boa grumbles to have some bop/boe costume options gear....yes I'm using the bind on x analogy because it's one of those things that fits. I don't see how a few sets or faction based items would be game-breaking to an overwhelming majority of players. I would wager if I saw a villain group or a hero group with some really cool and unique pieces, I'd start picturing some way to include a piece or two into my own costume. Then to discover I can grind up some reputation with this vanguard group or take a few theft missions to acquire those pieces I would do them as fast as I could.
Could certain pieces be available immediately from these sets? Purchasable in an in game store OR at the first tier of reputation rewards? Sure...
The reality of this game is I'm starting every toon at level 1. Why should I expect items that come from a group that is at a level 35+ be available to me before I reach that level to gain any reputation with them first? RP-wise it wouldn't make sense and it should be a way to encourage backstory before said security/threat level. If it's really something that players want available before the minimum level requirement, put it in a booster pack or make it available through some black market trade system and those items be quoted as "stolen" or "replica" but then the real pieces are still unlocked and are still unique.
Tl;dr I think if done right unlock able costume options could be a great asset to driving content without denying immediate rewards for players rolling new characters after that content is completed.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
CoH initially introduced a very tiny handful of "level-gated" costume items (i.e. the Vanguard set). But by the time the game ended virtually every one of these gated items were available via other means (like being able to buy them from the Paragon Market).
The reason for this is that so many people pitched so many hissy-fits about "it's unfair I have to wait till level 35 for my new character to get such-n-such item even though my other characters have already unlocked these things" that the Devs were basically forced to give in and let people buy these things as account-wide unlocks.
Frankly I once again favor the idea of keeping costume items away from being level gated or in-game unlocks if for no other reason than to shut the whiners up. This is the reason we can't have nice things...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Having played CoH from almost the beginning, I never saw the "no stats" as a selling point. Infact, I considered ACC/DEF/RES/ETC to be CoH's stats.
Keep them away from Vet rewards as well... even worse if you make them *exclusive* to those who have subscribed for a LONG period of time.
"Yes, you too can have this lovely set for the nice down payment of $800"
I think what Greenstalker meant was that you could play the game without ever having to think about abilities in terms of numbers, which I found to be a huge selling point compared to other MMOs. You make a good point, because clearly there were numbers behind the abilities, and as time went on the devs gave better access to those numbers to support folks who wanted to play them as traditional stats. However, I considered it a selling point that I was able to play for 7 years just thinking, "This yellow Enh will make my char better at hitting," without ever calculating by how much.
Spurn all ye kindle.
On the matter of account-wide costume unlocks: At least in Champions Online and to me, it devalues the unlocks. This goes further by the fact that the second Rogues Gallery perks all grant "Mantle of the X", which you can only use with tights. For any further character who archieves that (probably for VIPER), you will only end up with a totally useless item that you have to discard (on that matter, please do not go for "only one inventory for devices, enhancements, pure McGuffins that have no in-game effect but to take a place in the inventory, and everything else", as seen in Cryptic's current games. It is annoying).
Previously, it had been discussed that for costume pieces only unlockable in game, there should be a generic variant avaible at character creation, with the unlockable items being specific versions. I would add the category of "X's Y" (say, "Romulus's Shield", "Destroyer's Armour", "Anthem's Arm") into the category of (character) unlocks. In short, you would only have to unlock items demonstrate [i]character[/i] [i]archievements[/i]. And I am convinced that character archievements should not be shared across an account.
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Wow...I almost managed to not be offended there.
As it so happens, I was one of those 'whiners' back in the day. One of the strongest draws to CoH was the fact that you could make almost any kind of toon you wanted. The look had nothing to do with how the character played but appearance and CONCEPT mean a lot to players. The fact that you started out with 5 costume slots and could go to 10 is evidence enough. So players complained about the fact that they could have a cool concept but the look wasn't right because they had to wait until they either reached a certain level, ran a certain mission arc or bought something at the AH (in the case of many Wings) in order to get their concept right. Yeah...no.
Eventually new characters had a smaller selection of things like capes, wings and so forth (the Roman armor that dropped from the ITF is a good example) but in order to get the REALLY good stuff they still had to run the unlocking content. I would suggest that you not alienate the fans, the people who play the game for reasons OTHER than beating up bad guys all day. The RPers who formed whole communities within CoH. They were the ones who started early, played loyally and stayed until the lights went out.
Don't call your most loyal supporters whiners just because you deny them the very thing they showed up for.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
This
+1 and all that.
I respect the desire and draw for an incredible amount of content to be available to CHARACTERS new and veteran created at the time of creation. The idea of a game that is built around how a hero or villain looks and not use that feature to drive content and layer experience is too valuable to discard and give to everyone with little to no effort each time. I am in preference to say I don't want fresh drop access to winter fur-lined boots and a Santa hat outside of the winter holiday event. On an auction house? Sure, but not in character creation. It guarantees that a player will run through that winter event content when it comes around again.
I agree that there should be free-access to all genres and themes of items, but special and unique pieces that are notable to a faction and a signature npc, limited time (repeating) event, or higher-resolution versions of common pieces I think would be a benefit, regardless of how many outcry for the account-wide, readily available full closet.
Gated costumes and pieces can be a positive thing, and show that a level 50 hero/villain is much more worldly than a level 1 hero that - to the game metadata and achievement tracking - hasn't done nearly as much, even if the RP touts that he is some super villain that Lord Recluse wouldn't touch.
I had some really fun winter costumes for my ice corrupter had to wait for the winter event and it irritated me, but in the end it wasn't that difficult to acquire and I had fun earning it. If I truly felt like everything should be available to all characters up front, I would go play second life.
[i]“The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” -Douglas Adams[/i]
I find the costumes to be an OOC mechanic. I do not think unlocking costumes via your in game accomplishments should be unlocked as a "In Character" or even by character way. There is going to be an in-game store and I do not want my real money that pays for virtual perks to have "per character" value.
I will not be using alts so this will not affect me. But playing alts is a large part of what makes playing a superhero game players want to play. Don't create an alt-tax
- -
Champions Online Nemesis System sucks don't use it. I would love a nemesis system. In so much that I want to pick a villain player and have special missions where me and the other player have conflicting objectives that take us all around the various maps trying to one-up each other.
If we are going to create NPCs let them be people we actually want to interact with.. example: Let me create a NPC who stays in my base.. could be my wife, my butler, my secretary.. etc. But then my nemesis gets the joys of kidnapping or apprehending my "partner". Extra points if this NPC can appear in our SG base. I would totally buy the ability for more than one "partner" but think there should be some kind of cap..
Just saying.. as a contributing editor of gaygamer.net, I would love this idea and tout it as the MMO Innovation of the year!
- -
I love gear.. But I still do not necessarily see the need for a stat system. What would my ideal gear look like then? A lot like in Champions Online Gear would be enhancements! This way you can make them have a quality.. white, green, blue, purple. Call them "training"… and when I go to the training vendor I study "disciplines". Each character gets 2 of each discipline slot. Magnitude Slot affects the "numbers" your character puts out More Damage Points, Buff Points, Heal Points, Health Points, etc. Defense Slot gives your character defenses to the Mag slot (making magnitude that effects you smaller). Utility slot does NOT affect your magnitude at all but does effect the other mechanics in the game.
Disciplines slot types:
Mag Slot - +Damage (DPS), +Buff/Heal (guardian), +Debuff/Mez (controller), +HP/Threat (tank), +Crit/Accuracy, +Knockback, +PetHealth?, +PetDamage?
Defense Slot - +Physical Damage Resistance, +Supernatural Damage Resistance, +Energy Damage Resistance, +Mez Resistance, +Knock Resistance, +Debuff Resistance
Utility Slot - +Recharge/Cooldown Speed, +Endurance, +Movement Speed, + EnduranceCostReduction, +Perception Stealth, +Aggression Stealth, +Sight, Physical Damage Replacer, Energy Damage replacer, Supernatural Damage replacer.
Ok.. what are your thoughts? I did think about having damage replacers have a separate mechanic. With choice of resistance type available I don't see harm in letting players pick their damage type.. but until that mechanic is defined I decided to give it a gear cost.
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Champions Online has a auras system coming up using head, hand, foot slot etc. I like these but think there's a better way to implement it for players. I also want an option for costumes to switch on and off (weapons in holster vs in hand) For instance: my characters eye color turns blue in combat.. but it's not an aura I expect you to make "blue eyes aura" is a waste of dev time.
Put auras in the character creator and let us choose when it toggles. (In Combat or toggled by the player). If we want an always on aura let us just put it on both costumes.
Then again, my character only wears one uniform in combat.. a lot of people like to buy costume slots to have many variations of the same character.
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Travel Powers - This is the unreal Engine. Give us Wall interaction access (Wall running and Wall Jumping) DCUO gets this very right (I just hate their acrobatics animation)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Those are some great ideas! :D
"In the end there can be only one" The Highlander
That's kind of what I meant for the gear I brought up; where you get small bonuses.
As for the costume, I would like them not to be level locked or unlocked account wide simply for theme and ease. You should still have the 'hard to get piece that takes a lot of time to unlock with a max level character' just so long as I don't need to keep doing it.
How was I alienating the so-called "loyal supporters" by coming up with a suggestion to not have ANY level gated costume items in CoT? My suggestion would be letting everyone have access to EVERY costume item at level one. Don't you think all the RPers and "character concept" people out there would love my idea?
Now just because I might be suggesting this mainly because I don't want to hear anymore ranty whining along the lines of "I don't care if I already have thousands of items to choose from - the fact that I can't get the EXACT ONE I want at level one completely ruins my entire game experience" is sort of immaterial to the matter at hand. If everyone gets want they want out of this who cares what my motivation is?
For what it's worth I waited 2.5 years for wings and several more years after that for animated tails to appear in CoH so I can totally understand what it's like to not have the "right" costume items to make your character look the way you wanted. I guess the difference was I had no problem "making do" with the alternatives. At least you knew that the level gated items actually existed in the game and were goals you could achieve - at the time I had ZERO guarantee wings or moving tails were ever going to happen.
P.S. Last time I checked the CoH costume creator didn't have a Lunar Astronaut costume set. Now I could have sat there and whined that I couldn't make my envisioned concept of an Astronaut or I could have gotten over myself and made something else instead. That's EXACTLY what the folks who didn't have access to the ITF armor at level one should have done. Instead they complained that somehow the game was being specifically unfair to them. It wasn't the game's fault that those people felt that being able to make a Roman warrior at level one was their entitled right. No game like this is ever going to have infinite choices. Having to deal with a few locked items is hardly the end of the world for anyone. Adapt, overcome and create something else. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think the problem people had with unlocking the Roman and Vanguard sets were the fact that at the time they were released, they filled a gap in the costume creator that couldn't really be made up for. The Roman pieces had a distinct archaic armor look that you couldn't get from the rest of the editor. You had the full plate looking armor texture and that was pretty much it. The Vanguard weapons had a SciFi technical look to them that in the case of some weapons were the only tech-type options available.
Also I like the idea mentioned earlier about a generic version of a costume piece being unlocked from the start, while a more detailed, personalized "I smacked around the Victor and now I too can have V's on the toes of my boots" type of unlock as a trophy for an individual character.
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I must sincerely apologize. I saw the 'whiners' reference and misread your post to mean that you wanted gated costume sets of some kind. Terribly sorry. Never post too late or too early...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
As an RPer and someone who makes concept characters, I like and never minded having to do something to unlock an outfit. I just prefer to have done it once to unlock account wide, because sometimes you do see that piece that clicks for a costume and concept.
I never minded having to craft the outfit on each character if it meant I could end the tutorial and be in a tailor right after with the piece crafted (like CoH's Bat Wings), problem with that idea is they either become way to rare or they're all over the market and it feels like an "Oh...yay...another useless costume drop"
My argument is that there were already thousands of "gaps" in the costume creator because again it could never provide us with infinite options. Why did people get "weirdly angsty" over the very few unlocks (i.e.Vanguard and ITF armor) we had to deal with like if we only had those then we'd have EVERYTHING for any concept. No, there were still going to be thousands (million?) of things you couldn't create regardless of the unlocks. So why should we have cared that there was a couple of extra things a level one character couldn't have? The amount of items a level one character didn't have access to in CoH was statistically insignificant.
At least those locked items were in the game in some form or fashion - people should have been directing ALL of their energy towards requesting things that weren't in the game in any form that we seriously needed, not the couple of things you had to work for. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
If you, as the player outside the game, wanted to spend money on an account-wide costume set in the cash store to save yourself the time from having to unlock something on all your characters then I see no problem with that. You'd be paying the "penalty" for not unlocking things individually as intended. Like you said the act of unlocking things was what the game was all about.
But I still think I'll always have a fundamental problem with individually unlocking one thing with one character in the game and have that count as an account-wide unlock for all your characters. Your superhero didn't earn a wonderful achievement just to let your supervillain share in that achievement or, worse still, let another character share that who might not even existed at the time. How often do Boy Scouts who earned a merit badge 20 years ago let a new Boy Scout who started today automatically have the same badge?
People need to get over the misguided idea that an "account" allows their characters to somehow be treated like they are all the same person earning benefits for each other. If that were the case we would all have had just one "character" with multiple AT/powerset builds, dozens of costume slots, a single mega-inventory, a single total of XP and single pile of INF. Until that happens, no, individual in-game unlocks can't and shouldn't happen.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
(1) If the replay value of acquiring something in-game is just not there then make it account-wide ("die a thousand deaths to get the coffinwood clogs"). A better solution is to make sure the acquisition has replay value! Perhaps different paths to get it, perhaps quick and easy, perhaps just a whole lot of fun to do many times. But what about items limited to holiday events? What if you don't have time to log in all 57 of your toons during the annual Remembrance Hour? Then replay might still suck.
(2) If replay still sucks, and if it were codeable, then allow a player to pass such costume unlocks on to other characters within an account. Villains nick things from villains and heroes all the time, and heroes nick, er, souvenir things from villains and borrow from heroes. That example scout badge ([i]costume[/i]) could be stolen goods. That villain still won't have earned the scout badge ([i]badges[/i]), but he can still fool the old lady he leaves standing in the middle of the road...
Roleplay is also an option for dressing the hero, regardless of what costumes you have available. I'm not sure what costume unlocks have to do with powersets though. And currencies can often be transferred.
- you got me there, I have no idea.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
I've already suggested many times (and in many other threads) that there should be no locked/gated in-game costume items to begin with. You eliminate the very few examples of that from CoH and all of a sudden the need for "account-based unlocks" evaporates.
And for what it's worth I've also advocated for the separation of "character-based" badges and "account-based" badges so people no longer have to log in 57 times with all their toons during holiday events. Account-based badges (e.g. Anniversary or Vet badges) would have nothing to do with the in-game activity of any single character. Players could therefore log in once and get an account-based holiday badge that would show up on any current or future character they ever created. Problem once again solved. So-called "replay value" is no longer a factor because there are no longer unlocks like this to begin with.
I don't know what powersets and currency have to do with costume unlocks either. *shrugs*
But I do know people who see a game like this as "account oriented" tend to see their characters as different manifestations of the "player" and it frustrates them that they can't automatically lump all of their inventories and bank accounts together in one place. The frustration comes because they're trying to pound the square peg of "accountism" into the round hole of a character-centric game.
Until games like CoT are designed to be player-centric (like arcade games used to be) instead of character-centric (like pretty much every MMO has always been) then I'll continue to believe account-wide unlockables are fundmentally illogical and have no place in character-based MMO games. I also believe there are very easy ways a game like CoT can avoid "account-wide unlockables" as a viable answer to anything. All CoT needs to do is avoid the tiny handful of things CoH bothered to lock/gate in the first place.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
In a game like WoW or such where "raid" or other unlockable items provide a level approprate boost, then yes keep them gated.
But in a game like this where costumes are purely cosmetic, lets make them all available from lvl 1.
Now it just becomes a question of "what makes them available?"
1.) available for free for any toon. Lets say 90% of the options should fall into this category...at least at launch time.
2.) purchasable via a store option...either with an some sort of store purchasable currency, or just via expansion packs like CoX did.
3.) earn-able via in-game rewards....i.e. unlocks.
4.) craftable, then usable or sellable via the market.
5.) ramdom loot drop...again unlocks.
6.) purchasable via in game vendors..either via merits, faction favor or in-game currency.
Here is my real problem with these not-being all account wide....its the Alt-ing. Say just for example, I want to make a Roman Warrior, Broadsword/Shield Scrapper. At level 1, I did not have great options for that...however once through the proper arcs...I had an awesome looking Roman Warrior...something that I should have been able to do at level 1, so long as I had properly unlocked the costume options previously.
Unless you can do that...what is the point of your Power Armor FF/Nrg Defender running the arc to unlock the Roman outfits? He'll never use it....so then maybe I never build that Roman Warrior idea, cuz I can never get the right costume parts for it.
I remember working on one of the holiday arcs, just to get the toga unlock, because it was for an Angel inspired Peacebringer toon that I wanted to build...could not do so, until I had that unlock on my account.
Ohh, I know that I had a point the above ramble and it had to do with gating stuff. This kind of thing rewards YOU, the player, for going through the content at least once, with the account costume unlocks. So it keeps it somewhat of an achievement...granted its an achievement that anyone who has gone through the content at least once all shares. But it avoids the grind of having to run it on every toon.
Frankly I'd rather do without the "achievement" of earning ANY in-game costume unlocks if it meant no one would ever have to whine about "I don't want the 'grind' of having to run something on every toon." Surely the CoT Devs could replace those kinds of achievements with others that didn't involve unlocks of any kind.
The people who complain about having to unlock costume items through grinding the level gated content in CoH always seem to forget that it only applied to about maybe 0.001% of all costume items available. I'm pretty sure I could have counted the number of items this affected on my fingers and toes out of literally THOUSANDS of items. All CoT has to do is NOT have a handful of items gated the same way they were in CoH and all of a sudden NO ONE would ever have to worry about gated/locked costume items ever again. No more whining about how I couldn't make my Roman Warrior at level 1 because I didn't have the ITF armor. Period.
Why would we need account unlocked costume items if there were NO in-game locked/gated costume items to begin with? We already saw that by the end of the game virtually EVERY formerly locked item CoH provided was purchasable in the Paragon Market. CoH was effectively heading towards not having any in-game locked items because of this. Why does anyone think that trend won't be possible or wouldn't continue in CoT as well?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I must have missed that, and yes, Id be okay with that.
You obviously care what your motivation is, and want others to know it. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted a motivation, but you're exactly right... nobody should care what your motivation is. You shouldn't have posted it in the first place, because it doesn't matter and adds nothing to the discussion the way it was presented.
That one sentence sums it up nicely, and leaves no room for 'misunderstanding' what it is you actually want. I agree with that sentence.
**EDIT to add: I would really, really like to see a nemesis system implemented in CoT. Just not the same way CO does it. The content should be collaborative with friends/teammates. Maybe even have nems of people you've teamed with previously come and ambush you... because you were seen with them or something.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
Yeah, a system where your Nem could team with other SG member's Nems to form an evil SG would rock. Looking way down the road on that sort of thing though...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
If they do I would hope they start small and build up on it. Maybe increase the amount of Nems you can have, have your Nems form a coalition, or have Task Forces where your Nem and everyone else's Nem team up.
CO's Nem system needs an overhaul, but it is a great idea.