Not sure if this was covered in an earlier topic, but I didn't see any, so I figured it should be said while groundwork is still being laid in the character design department...
Let's say you have two characters with Super Strength as their power - one male, one female.
Most people would want to make their super-strong characters with bodies that accurately reflect their abilities... No one would take a scrawny Superman or Hulk seriously, after all.
Unfortunately, the trend seems to be that while "physique" sliders tend to work just as you'd expect them too for the male bodies, with female bodies the effect of them is watered down to such an extent that they're only good for either turning all the way up for some "acceptable" level of thickness [i](not too buff or not too "fat")[/i], maxing out at generally average, or turning all the way down for making a reaaaally skinny or undead/zombie character.
This was admittedly the case in CoH, somewhat true in Champions Online, DCUO has no body sliders and so on and so forth. It's quite sad, actually, because I like making female characters, and even though body types don't affect the way powers function at all, there's something a lot more satisfying [i](at least in my opinion)[/i] about watching a super-punch send an enemy flying when the arm that threw said punch is more "bodybuilder" than "fitness model".
It seems that the reason for this doesn't really have much to do with technical limitations like most features that never seem to show up in MMOs no matter how much we want them, but more of how society places standards on how women are "supposed" to look. When you're a big AAA game developer, you've gotta worry about those sorts of things. Don't wanna "freak anyone out", after all. But as indie developers, I don't see why this has to continue with us. The fact is that there are real-life female bodybuilders who happen to be buffer than any of the female characters you could make in CoH...
Take Rene Campbell for example...
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5yQMzuXX4Gw/UlKGomIWz2I/AAAAAAAB180/OWocerxm5cc/s1600/Rene_Campbell_uk+%282%29.jpg[/IMG]
Of course, that's just on the realistic side of things... In a world where superpowers exist, I see no reason why we can't have a female character with a body like this as well:
[URL=http://www.imagebam.com/image/90d0f8410266884][IMG]http://thumbnails106.imagebam.com/41027/90d0f8410266884.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Hopefully, whatever body frame you can use for the inevitable "huge" type males could be modified with a female version to go along with it? Just a thought.
Of course, I'm hoping that many of the people here understand what I'm talking about and realize the value of having the option to make your females buff - after all, we all want to feel like we're playing as something that we created, and the more options, the better! However, I have encountered quite a bit of opposition at times when I mentioned this idea back in the days of CoH from people who were vehemently opposed to it, so just in case some of the nay-sayers want to have another go at me on this, let's get some of the most common gripes I've had the "pleasure" of hearing out of the way...
[b][i]"People don't like seeing big muscles on women! It freaks them out!"[/i][/b]
You know what else freaks people out? Giant spiders, fleshy, hideously-mutated sewer dwellers, freaking [i]puking corpses stitched together with other corpses and welded in with random machine parts (I'm looking at you, Dr. Vahzilok)![/i] I'm pretty sure that a She-Hulk will be the least strange-looking thing in this game.
[b][i]"It's too fetish-oriented! It'll bring in perverts!"[/i][/b]
More "fetish-oriented" than skin-tight leather and latex catsuits? Moving on...
[b][i]"It just makes me uncomfortable!"[/b][/i]
Then [b]you don't have to make your character that way![/b] Statistically, most people will prefer more "traditionally accepted" female physiques anyway, so you won't even see that many muscle-girls in game to begin with.
Anyway, Just hoping I can get this into the plans before the final character models are designed. Thoughts?
I believe the goal is for one, basic model for all genders and sizes, rather than making the break to 'Huge'. Alternately, the Devs may be planning a separate model for males and females. There Are discussions on this forum, regarding muscles on females, but they tend to appear in the Costume and Art threads.
Personally, I wouldn't like your 'Hulk in a Bra' model. The 'bodybuilder' ideal has nothing to do with strength, but only Visible muscle-detail. The female form carries a higher percentage of fat than male's do, which would tend to smooth and obscure that visible detail. In fact, outside of comic books, the strongest men and women tend to be... not very 'picturesque'.
Still, we ARE discussing a comic-book world of super-powered people, so some level of 'outrageous musculature' does seem appropriate. I'd like to suggest that strong women don't have to look like men-with-boobs, though.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'd hope, at least, for something along these lines:
The original hope/plan for was one model that could do the male <-> androgynous <-> female thing, but UE4 couldn't pull it off (at least not out of the box, and we know that MWM doesn't have the resources, or perhaps even the rights, to go making major changes to the engine). At this point we'll have a male and female model.
However, even this information is many months old. The bottom line is that we have only a little information regarding colors, textures, and particles and next to no information on the character model. In my opinion this isn't a bad thing because I'm fairly certain that MWM is shooting for the moon with the character model / character creator. It makes sense avoid providing fuel for speculation until they've got an idea of how far short they'll fall.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
So.. we have 2 base models: Ann and Andy? ;D
[img]http://www.thegamewiz.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/raggedy-ann.jpg[/img]
;)
I'm ok with this much muscle. Still appealing. Anything more, and its not soooo appealing anymore to me. :P
i agree
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich
[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/hinata1032/Kitsune.jpg[/img]
I favor a 6 model base system for the character creator. A male female version of each, average, muscular and heavy. The reason is there is just no way for a single model to allow for all body types properly without MASSIVE amounts of behind the scenes work.
The biggest issue with a one (or two) base system is the extremes become distorted and cause too many issues with other factors in the game, things like costume clipping, animation cycles and possibly even camera positioning. With 6 models you can design morphs, animations and costumes and cameras that work specifically for that model type because the actual morph range is smaller and more manageable.
Alternatively a single (or two model) system could work as long as there are pre-set options for average, muscular and heavy that load the appropriate morphs in by clicking it. This is essentially the same thing as having separate models except that it makes it MUCH easier to develop costume parts that apply to all body types.
A single (or two) base model system would require many more morph combinations to develop, test and correct if it has all the body options a 6 model system would allow for. While having a single or two model base means ALOT more customization options (in theory) it also increases the workload of animators, artists and developers in general. I normally shout for more customization options but in this case having the most desired body options available (average, muscular and heavy) is probably enough.
With multiple base models you can allow for this:
[img]http://muscle.iuhu.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/women-weight-training-myths-muscles.jpg[/img]
This:
[img]http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003115261/3226977357_Sample204P0610_xlarge.jpeg[/img]
Or even this:
[img]http://creativefan.com/important/cf/2013/04/hairstyles-for-fat-women/purple-tee.jpg[/img]
And variations of those body types (please keep in mind these pictures are body type samples and not something to judge how appealing they are physically).
But there probably isn't a need to allow for this:
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH_tQayWsAI9SZU.jpg[/img]
This last example is what becomes possible when you have an abundant amount of sliders that allows for other body types without ALOT of behind the scenes work ensuring cross limits on dials.
I am not saying that this level of choice is a bad thing...its not....its the amount of work required to make this happen in the games context that I personally find excessive.
A problem with multiple base models, like this, is that they typically call for multiple copies of costume pieces. Also, that second picture no longer looks human... are you sure it's not Photoshopped? I mean, those legs don't even look functional.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I would like to clarify something so no one is misled. I am not saying the developers should design 6 models from the ground up. I am saying there should be 6 options in the character creator that stem from the original model. They can be either designed with specific morph targets applied and become an additional model file or alternatively it could be a single model file that when a pre-set is chosen load specific morph targets.
No they don't. At worst they will be a single original design that has divergent development paths resulting in multiple files....And my point was that this is much less time consuming and effort to do than ensuring a single part will work with multiple morphs especially in the extreme settings.
Its obviously photoshopped... but again that was not the point. Extreme muscles like that require a specific type of morph...actually its a lot of morphs but for a character creator purpose it could be a single dial. Normal muscles require a different morph set. To make one that incorporates both is needlessly complex.
The problem is to make a single dial that allows a model to go from the muscles in first picture to the second picture requires an extensive amount of work that includes cross limits, dependant morph activation and many more things. This is just to make the model ABLE to transform like this. It does not deal with any other animation or costume issues that would arise. Issues are further compounded when you have multiple dials that can be used in conjunction to create the absolutely inhuman body shapes as I exampled in the last picture.
It is much simpler to pre-set a specific body type with dials that have a much more limited morph range and type. By limited I mean using the specific morph set suitable for the body type, not making the morph almost unnoticeable. With limited morph range on multiple body shapes you make it much easier to convert clothing to fit all shapes, make animations more suitable and basically lessen testing and correction efforts. 6 base models (or pre-sets) in the character creator will allow for the most desired body types to available and customizable for much less effort and in much less time.
It won't be able to make the truly bizarre body shapes but I don't think that alone is worth the amount of effort and time required to do so.
Just dont forget, just because you CAN Morph a Mesh to certain extremes, Doesn't mean the UV Map (texture) will still look good when Morphed so much. :<
You do remember it was me who discussed issues with cross compatible clothing at length in another thread right? Yes I know that extreme morphs will make some textures (or clothing meshes for that matter) look bad...The short answer is that to help make clothing cross compatible you design with that in mind to begin with (as I said in that thread)...one way is to have specific limits in morph targets/ranges for multiple body shapes as I suggest here.
But issues with clothing and texture design is not what this thread is about. The OP suggested allowing female characters to have a variety of muscular forms and I was describing what I felt to be the most time/effort efficient way to provide the most desired body types customizable without having to deal with many of the issues a single base model would have in the character creator. Granted, I have no idea how they are designing the character models in the game and I am an amateur modeller so I could be way off.
And this is why it was so infuriating that you were so certain that "you must be right and I must be wrong" when it came to the discussion on how costuming will be applied to these body models using modern software technology. At least at this point (in this thread) you've admitted that, like myself, we collectively really don't know how MWM will accomplish these tasks in full.
I'm willing to accept that we each may know 5% or 10% of the total picture of CoT body modeling but that nether of us really knows what we're talking about here without "insider" access. As long a neither one of us are "Devs" of CoT we'd probably both be better off to stop pretending that we are. With that said hopefully MWM will manage these issues satisfactorily tor everyone.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I really suggest you go back and actually read my posts from before. I said many times...right from the beginning that I was an amateur...that there was a possibility of a new script or program that rendered my statements false and that I didn't know how the devs were making the models. Your frustration seems to stem from the fact that you only had disbelief in what I was saying and no actual arguments whereas I provided real arguments supported by examples.
I am not willing to accept that we each 'know 5% or 10%'. I may be an amateur but like most amateurs I do keep abreast of current technology and while I may not be as skilled in their use as a professional I do understand what the technology capable of. I know you were not intending to be offensive but it is kind of insulting to say we both have the same knowledge base when I have been doing this for over 20 years and you admitted that you 'only have a passing knowledge of what you might call "state of the art" when it comes to 3D modeling'.
I, personally, dislike obscenely muscled character models. In all the time I played CoX, I only made one and deleted it within a few days.
However, that should have zero impact on the availability of obscenely muscled male and female models. Many other people enjoy making them and if it is technically possible, then they should certainly have the freedom to do so.
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Regarding costumes and MWM tech, I assume everyone has reviewed the earlier [url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/having-ball-art-tech]Having A Ball[/url] update.
I'm not convinced as others are that multiple body models will drastically increase the number of costume models.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Hmm, that's a good point. Who knows, perhaps the Devs are more awesome than we give them credit for?
Be Well!
Fireheart
That's the case more often than not... -_-;
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
This is pretty much my thoughts of it as well. I am not a fan of overly abundant muscles on both guys and gals but that's just me. Someone else would like it
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
So nobody wants to team with [url=http://www.progressiveboink.com/2012/4/21/2960508/worst-rob-liefeld-drawings]The Liefeldian[/url]?
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Did they say if they could do all this without a lot of extra work? That's what it came down to in CoH. It would have been a lot of extra work for a build that wouldn't have been used a lot.
I'm sure if CoT can do it without a lot of extra work, then it's likely a go.
It's not so much a question if we get muscular people (both male and female) but rather how much muscularity we'll get. Personally I'm hoping they'll push it to the point right before costs outweighs the benefits. Where that will actually be. well only MWM knows that.
But how can we assess Benefits before the game is even released? I'm just gonna trust the Devs to do a good job.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Should I really have had to qualify that with using "analysis"?
Effectively everything that MWM is including and the magnitude of those inclusions are based of off cost-benefit analyses.
Why not allow women to be just as muscular as men? If Princess Fiona from Shrek worked out, she'd look like the hulk. She's already bigger than any normal man to start with. We don't need everyone to be human, and we don't have to make every girl be pretty.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Do you not listen or just lack reading? No one is saying, don't allow it, what is being said, is it may be considered a waste of resources to have it.
Of course, some of it will depend on how exactly their avatar system works, but if it takes a lot of extra work to do, and not many people are using it, and even less so will quit over it, it may not be considered the best use of resources.
That's why CoH didn't have it. It was hard enough for them to make sure outfits fit all three body types, made worse by huge body type being under used.
No I just didn't really care enough to read everyone else's posts on a thread that I'm only trying to force an interest in out of boredom. I responded to the opening post only.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber