Anywhere from [i]skeleton[/i] to [i]Hulk with muscular hypertrophy[/i] would be about what I would root for regarding muscle mass. Of course, muscle [i]tone[/i] is a whole different animal, referring to how defined these muscles are. I believe we should have a sliding scale, which goes as follows...

On one end, you have hypotonic muscles which are poorly-defined, either due to muscular weakness or due to a neurological state of relaxation. It can be indistinguishable from fat, and most patients tend to move like ragdolls. On the other end, you have hypertonic muscles which are incredibly well-defined due to neurological contractions constantly putting their muscles under stress, making the muscles pronounced as if every muscle in your body was being flexed. It gives patients a wiry build if they aren't already [i]He-Man,[/i] and most of them tend to move more rigidly.

Essentially, muscle tone defines the muscle mass of a character and establishes whether or not their movements are fluid or precise.

Lothic wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Anywhere from skeleton to Hulk with muscular hypertrophy would be about what I would root for regarding muscle mass. Of course, muscle tone is a whole different animal, referring to how defined these muscles are. I believe we should have a sliding scale, which goes as follows...
On one end, you have hypotonic muscles which are poorly-defined, either due to muscular weakness or due to a neurological state of relaxation. It can be indistinguishable from fat, and most patients tend to move like ragdolls. On the other end, you have hypertonic muscles which are incredibly well-defined due to neurological contractions constantly putting their muscles under stress, making the muscles pronounced as if every muscle in your body was being flexed. It gives patients a wiry build if they aren't already He-Man, and most of them tend to move more rigidly.
Essentially, muscle tone defines the muscle mass of a character and establishes whether or not their movements are fluid or precise.

Your point about the differences between hypotonic and hypertonic muscles is interesting but it almost sounds like it could be generalized to the older discussion (raised in other threads) about whether or not we could ever have flabby/fat characters with associated "jiggliness". Using your terms I think it's always going to be easier for games like this to portray body models with extreme hypertonic musculature regardless of size/mass simply because it's easier to render "hard" flesh that has no jiggliness of any kind regardless whether that looseness would be caused by poorly defined muscles or simple body fat.
I'm not necessarily against your idea of having a "muscle tone" slider. I'm just saying that given the problems associated with any kind of body "jiggle physics" and costume clipping concerns I suspect it'll be far easier to adjust overall muscle size/mass of our CoT characters than it will be to have what would be in effect a full body jiggliness slider. Many games seem to have a hard enough time tackling how to render "female breast physics" in reasonably consistent ways - imagine trying to have to deal with those issues across an entire body model.

Well, that's the beauty of it. They don't need to animate every little jiggle! The devs can leave the poorly-defined muscle static until they're ready to tackle the jiggle physics. It can wait, and so can everybody who ever played a game made in the noughties. (in a mythical time where jiggle physics were not too prevalent)

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Well, that's the beauty of it. They don't need to animate every little jiggle! The devs can leave the poorly-defined muscle static until they're ready to tackle the jiggle physics. It can wait, and so can everybody who ever played a game made in the noughties. (in a mythical time where jiggle physics were not too prevalent)

Demrius wrote:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CCSMLwfqmC4/UIHvn8NnGEI/AAAAAAAAJ6I/NG_teFwj8tk/s640/Bodybuilder+vs+Powerlifter.jpg just my 2 cents...

You both have valid points about the many types of "variation" you could have when it comes to how muscles can appear on the human body. I'm just once again unsure how we would be able to have access to all of these options on a single body model.

The Devs have specifically mentioned (in other threads) that they are currently working on just one body model for each male and female. I simply suspect that the only way the Devs could satisfy all the variant ideas raised in this thread would be to provide several different models per sex that could encompass the entire range of musculature being suggested here (i.e. skinny body, normal body, huge body, etc.). When it comes down to total overall polygons and costume clipping I don't think one model could fit all cases even with the clever implementation of sliders.

So while it's always possible that we'll eventually get multiple body models to choose from I expect there will have to be compromises made with the limits of what a single body model can provide in terms of "skinny", "ripped", "body-builder vs. strongman" or anything in-between. For what it's worth I'd be delighted for the Devs to prove me wrong about this. *shrugs*

Izzy wrote:

I'm guessing (and just guessing here) that there might be an Andy 1.. and Andy 2. :)
Andy 1 can be used for the normal Male / Female characters.
Andy 2 can be used for the Huge Male / Female* characters, as well as any monster like (WarWolves, etc..) forms.
Well, I assume that WarWolves are never Skinny enough to be suitable for Andy 1.. but some WILL want it on Andy 1 as well. ;)

Like I said having multiple body models for players to choose from would likely allow for all of these various muscle/size options, assuming of course we actually get multiple body models. Again the latest the Devs have mentioned in these forums is that we're going to get (at least by the time the game launches) only one main male model and one main female one. Obviously that could change, but that's the info we have at the moment.

Izzy wrote:

But, to be honest... a really creative 3D artist can create a High Poly mesh that can fit Andy 2 (larger body means more volume/definition, which means more detail).. and just Morph those Polys to look like Andy 1.
Then the question is: "Is it OK that Andy 1 has all these extra Polys?" and..
"How will those extra polys affect the game performance (i.e: in Raids)?" :/

I agree having a single body model with a relatively huge number of polygons could do the same job size/shape wise as having several simpler models. But you yourself point out there are drawbacks to having everyone run around with models packed with excessive polygons. As you say the real question will be can the Devs of MWM compromise between having male and female body models that allow for a wide range of shapes versus being workable in terms of performance and costume clipping concerns.