Hi all,
this thread is based on a few assumptions so Ill put them up front.:
- Multiple Builds per character
- Boosts are going to be very similar to Enhancements in all ways (Standard Boosts [TO/DO/SO], Special [HO], Advanced [IO] and Advanced Sets [IO Sets])
With COH you could have up to 3 Builds per character. An example of how you COULD use them:
1- Solo play
2- Team play
3- PvP
An understandable consequence of this was the Enh on Build1 could not be used on Build2/3.
This was understandable/reasonable but also off putting to a certain degree as I would need to spend a LOT of money on outfitting each of my builds.
And that makes perfect sense if my builds were completely different but they never were. You were still limited to the same Pri/Sec powersets which accounted for the vast majority of your powers. The Tertiary sets often changed but they were only a few powers.
Reasons why allowing multiple builds on the same character should be allowed include:
I can only use 1 build at a time. So if I use the same Melee IO Set on 2 of my builds I get no extra benefit.
I don't get the Set Bonuses twice or three times.
I cant sell the IO Set without selling it from all my builds, etc
This then raises a problem when Build2 uses different powers than Build1 (which is why you have different builds in the first place).
Example: Build 1 is ST based. Build2 is AoE based (assuming that the Powerset chosen has both ST and AoE attacks but that's a fair enough assumption).
Powers 1-3 on Build1 are all ST.
Powers 1-3 on Build2 are ST, AoE, AoE.
Build2 cant use the ST IO Sets from Build1's Powers 2-3 so what happens then?
I propose a 'Build Storage' window that allows all Boosts to be stored in from the different builds.
Example:
Build1 @ lvl 30 (Max) is fully Boosted (if that's the term?)
I make Build2 for a different playstyle. I level up my Build2 using the same Pri/Sec powersets.
I can then chose to use whatever Boosts I have in my 'Build Storage' and whatever is left over stays in that storage.
Boosts used on Build2 are still left in Build1.
If I want to sell a Boost on my Build2 character I take it out of Build Storage into my Boost Tray - at this point I get a warning that this action will unslot the Boost from all Builds. I click yes and I can do what I want with it (sell, trade, destroy, etc).
My Build2 also has a Power that my Build1 doesn't and I have no Boosts for that power. That power is UnBoosted until I get Boosts for that power at which point those Boosts slotted in that power become available to all Builds via the 'Build Storage'.
Again even though up to 3 of my builds can use the same Boosts I am not owning more than 1 of each actual Boost (2 of the same Boosts are each individual Boosts). I cant benefit from the Boost at the same time as I can only have 1 Build active. I cant sell the copy on Build2 and still use my copy on Build1.
Now from a RP perspective maybe we need to only allow Build Changes to take place in your Base as you have to 'swap your stuff', but not everyone has a Base. Or we have it like CoH and you have to go to a Trainer to swap Builds?
Thoughts?
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I'd like to mention up front that you may have noticed a trend in my thoughts on this game recently. I'm all about creating demand for store credit and/or unlocks via content (TFs, missions, etc). The unlocks serve the purpose of giving people a good reason to re-play content and the act of putting a pricetag on that same stuff allows for the short-cutting of that content for money, which creates a desire for store credit, and thus encourages subscriptions and a la carte purchases, both of which make the game money. The cheapskates that don't want to pay can grind for it instead to save money, and then we all get to do more TFs etc when that happens (yay added game play), and the high rollers may well be tempted to drop the cash that keeps the game afloat financially (yay financial viability). So everybody wins. Anyway, onto the topic at hand.
On the premise of the Boosts being exactly the same as the stuff we had in CoX, I feel that it most likely won't be like that, but I don't know any more than you do, so I'm not going to argue about it. I would however just make the disclaimer that I think that assumption, which I'm perfectly willing to accept for the sake of argument, is probably going to be proven incorrect eventually. But it's all we have for now, so whatever.
As for how many different builds we're going to have, I have no idea what that will end up actually being either, but if there is going to be any kind of mechanic in place that allows more than one, I think a total of two is probably the best number, at least to start with. One for PVE and one for PVP. Beyond that I can see selling more build slots in the store and/or unlocking them somehow.
As for the main question of "Should we be able to 'double book' our Boosts?", I think the best way to handle that is to say "No." as a general rule, but with possible exceptions, again perhaps acquired in the store or by unlocking them somehow, or even just by random loot drops or buying it in the auction house for influence. Maybe something like those "catalysts" they had for the enhancements in like 2012 in CoX would fill that role. Get a catalyst, use it to make a single enhancement that you already have "double-bookable" but it costs either money or influence to buy the catalyst and to use it, and then the affected Boost is bound in the slot it's in such that you'd have to use another catalyst to unbind it before then proceeding to unslot it later (with an unslotter, which also costs money or influence or mertis, etc). When you respec either of the two builds that Boost is now in, you have to choose one of two options: A) Keep the double-booked Boost in the same power it was in before you started the respec, that is, keep it in the same exact power ("same" meaning "same name" e.g. Fly), though you don't necessarily have to work that power into the build in the same place as it was before. So for example you could decide to take Fly earlier/later in the build and leave the double-booked +Stealth proc in it just fine, as long as you still have Fly in there someplace; or B) the double booked Boost (which is essentially two identical copies of whatever it is in two different places now) recombines with itself and and reverts back into one, single, non-double-bookable Boost, like it originally was, and ends up in your tray, where you can slot it into whatever. You don't get the catalyst or the cost of catalyzation back at all. This gives you a "free" unslot, but the cost of the catalyst would be a lot more, I imagine, anyway.
Of course, making the catalyst cost influence to use might or might not be necessary, or you could have to craft it, etc. Somehow you're paying something to acquire it (or using one you got as a random drop) and then paying to use it, either crafting fees or fees upon use. Something like that.
I think that would be good. In addition to promoting sales and/or game play, this creates an influence sink and the game also needs influence sinks for the sake of its economy.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Thanks for the reply Radiac, however I cant see any reasons WHY you said no, only alternative suggestions (which are fine).
Not EVERYTHING should require a purchase from the Game Store and not everything has to be a money sink.
If everything beyond the BASICS is locked behind a purchase I can see some people walking away from the game. ALL they can do is the bare minimum and anything else is locked behind $$. Bye.
Some things should be purchasable of course and some things should be purchasable as well as unlocked via playing the game but not everything.
I hope I understand your desire for the game to make money but if we charge everyone for everything we will lose players (my opinion). If this reasoning in incorrect my bad ;).
Personally I never did alt builds as I made my character for a purpose. Even my Crab Spider was completely separate from my Bane Spider even though I could have just made a 2nd Build. And this was done because I loved Alting :) I had lots of ingame currency and Merits if I have wanted to use them for alt builds. But that was me and mine and I am not trying to enforce my style of gaming on anyone else.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
It was just an idea, the catalyst thing I mean. Frankly I think just making people who have two or more builds buy a second enhancement is simpler and easier than what I proposed, and probably just as good (if not better) anyway. When I reread the catalyst idea now it seems like an overly complicated way of saving people MAYBE some influence, but with the market fluctuations turning it into a bad risk on the part of the player and then an unused vestigial appendage in the game. I mean who would catalyze an IO if buying the second copy is cheaper? And making them buy a second IO is a better influence sink in the first place, so we may as well stick with that.
As for the question of "Why is Rad trying to monetize everything." I think the things that can be monetized without causing the PAYING CUSTOMERS to head for the exists should be, and this requires us to look at and talk about the possible monetization of EVERYTHING here and now in the meantime.
I personally fully intend to pay a sub, like I did on CoX, and by that I mean I'll most likely sign up to pay for like 6 months to a year of VIP at a time. I want the sub that I'm paying for to be the cheaper, more economical option over and above paying for things I might want a la carte. Thus I feel the non-sub people ought to have to grind for a lot of the stuff that I will be getting for my $15 a month or else they ought to have to pay like $16+ a month for the same stuff when they buy it piecemeal.
If you ask me "Why are you trying to monetize everything Rad?" then I will turn around and ask "Why is 'free' the default expectation for anything in this game in the first place? It wasn't free to produce, so what makes you think you have a right to expect to get it for free?"
Making people have to pay piecemeal or grind for stuff in the game is a way of making the subscription an attractive option by comparison. As far as I can tell, the only people that sort of thing alienates are the ones NOT paying any ongoing money to play the game in the first place. If someone's not paying any money to play the game now, why does it matter where those people go when you tell them they have to pay for something they want in the game? I don't see where it makes any positive difference in the game's income whether the people who aren't paying any ongoing money to play the game hang around and freeload some more or quit and go play LoL. The game isn't making any money off of them whether they're here or not, is it? In fact, them hanging around for free is causing the company's overhead costs to go up in the form of help desk requests, servers needed to sustain the player population, etc. I think people like that are COSTING the company money and the company is actually financially better off WITHOUT them hanging around. I mean preferably, you get them to pay a sub, but barring that possibility, for the people who really don't want to pay any money to play the game in any kind of ongoing basis, the game is better off if they're not here using resources and causing wear and tear and creating the need for more support staff, etc, isn't it?
The only way I can see for the non-sub players to make a positive contribution to the game's income over time is if you can generate enough revenue through in-game advertizing (based on how large your player base is) to make it worth keeping them around. CoX was apparently not able to do that to the extent that their parent company felt it was worth supporting, so I don't know if that's possible with this game. It's a shame too because in a virtual world that's so similar to the real one, you've got all sorts of opportunities to put Coke ads and Adidas ads etc in there without spoiling anyone's sense of immersion, etc. But I don't want to rely on that right now, I'd love it if that can be a big money earner for this game in the future, but I'd rather kick the tires on the "here's a thing that's part of the game, let's see if we can monetize it" approach first, while the game's still being built.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Thanks Rad and I do see your points.
In terms of getting F2P to help with paying for the game I agree there should be a Pay Store, however things like having to buy 80(?) Catalysts just so you can share Boosts between builds on a Single character seems a bit too much to me. Id rather we limit multiple builds to a Pay For model unless you're on a Sub when you can get a 2nd Build as part of your Sub. Then have the 3rd+ build(s) [if they want to allow more than 2] as Pay for everyone. Just like costume slots. Give Freebies 2 slots, Subs 4 and any extras cost $5 more or whatever as a Global Unlock.
Maybe an idea is to have the 'Build Boost Sharing' a Paid for option as well and without it you cant share. Best of both worlds?
Playing the game should be free and anything that is 'core' to the game should be free. What is defined as 'core' is open to interpretation and opinion :)
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Doing Free to Play Wrong - How Bad Monetization Harms F2P Games - Extra Credits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0 Extra Credits: Microtransactions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI
edit never sell power
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich
[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/hinata1032/Kitsune.jpg[/img]
It looks to me as though the primary benefit from and reason for such boost sharing is to get the most use out of expensive and/or rarer boosts. In essence, it's a step in the direction of treating boosts like gear (which they are, after all). I cannot think of any compelling reason to disallow this, other than 'that is how CoH did it'.[color=red]*[/color] As cybermitheral pointed out, when using Build 2 my character's Build 1 may as well no longer exist. It is rather odd to presume that any boosts in that build should effectively cease to exist, as well. In particular if the two builds share a number of powers (as they invariably will).
This allow the player to use the items the character has available to them, rather than locking some of them away because reasons.
I can certainly see some cash shop potential in allowing people to purchase additional slots for their 'booster pool'. They likely would not need to do so unless they start putting together numerous boost sets for their builds, but I'd expect enough people would go to such lengths for their characters to make it worthwhile.
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[color=red]*[/color] Obviously such nuts and bolts considerations as "this will be an unholy mess to program" trump everything.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I keep coming back to the same basic philosophical difference in my head: I feel like people are constantly coming up with ideas for how to make CoT somehow "improved" as compared to CoX by taking something CoX had and making it free, easier to do, faster, infinitely repeatable at no cost, and more effective. If this were football, the equivalent would be ideas like "Let's give a team 2 points just for LOOKING at the end zone, because that would lead to more scoring and make the game better.". To me a lot of this sounds like "Was there a thing in CoX that cost influence and was limited to once per toon, let's make cost NO influence and let people do it as often as they want, because that feels "'better' to me." This to me ins't really an effort in making a better game, it's an effort in trying to win the one we used to play by hacking the rules.
The player will always try to find, or invent, ways to improve their life as a gamer by finding ways to do it more efficiently. That's human nature. The gamey-ness of any game lies on making that optimization process MORE complex and richly detailed and thus more interesting, not easier and more straightforward. The problem, as I see it, is that none of the shortcuts people want to add make the game more interesting to play, or cause anyone to play the game more, or generate additional income, it just hands the player exactly what they want, the most optimal solution to the problem. This is essentially trying to win a game that's complex and challenging by rewriting the rules so as to make it simple and easy. It is the attempt, among the inmates, to improve their lives by taking over the asylum.
We could take this idea to the ultimate place it's leading us and just code up a game where you download it, install it for free, it runs and gives you a big shiny red button labeled "Press Here to Win." and when you press that button the game shows you the "You WON!" screen. That's it, that's the whole game. No grinding, no money, no gear to have to worry about, just pure instant total gratification for free at the push of a button. If anyone ever did that, I'm sure someone who used to play CoX would post a thing on here saying "Why should I have to PUSH the button, why can't it just push itself? That's too much work, you're going to cause people to rage quit." :)
The more complexity we add to the game, the more interesting it is to think about optimizing, for those who are inclined to do so. If you just want to run around and blast things, you can do that too even if the game is a little deeper than that on some levels.
In the first Jurassic Park movie, there's a scene where Sam Neill is looking at a goat carcass hanging from a tree and he asks "What's that for?" and they tell him "The T-rex's dinner." to which he replies "It doesn't want to be fed. It want's to hunt."
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I wouldn't have a problem with this. If anything it could help to sell build slots in the cash store. My only concern would be on how "separate" PvP is from PvE. Depending on what directions the Dev's take, PvP could use it's own unique boosts which would require a player to re-slot a completely different set of boosts for PvP play. If they did go that route though, I could see sharing PvP boost between multiple PvP builds if available.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Fair enough.
On the other hand, with this approach one has to be careful not to tread into the territory of, "Let's not use instant replay technology because that would make the referee's job too easy."
As I said in my post, "because that's the way CoH did it" is, by itself, not a compelling argument.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Agreed, using new technology and adding new dimensions to the game is fine. And I agree with the fundamental point you make that "just because it was that way in CoX" is not a good enough reason to do something in CoT. But if people are going to use CoX as a prototype and then modify things from there, using new technology, I personally will always be doing that by asking "How can we make this a richer, more interactive, more interesting, more complex game, and how can the game make more money because of it?" and not "How can I use this new technology to make my life as a player cushier than it was in CoX without it costing me anything."
The proverbial t-rex wants to eat and it will stalk and kill it's prey as efficiently as it can in the environment that it is in given the senses and short upper limbs and giant teeth it has. If you just give it the dang goat, pre-killed, where's the fun in that? If you let the t-rex design it's own paddock, it would probably make one where there are no bars holding it there, no rivers or trees or hills or caves for the prey to hide in, and the prey will be immobile and smell really delicious, but it will get really bored really fast, eat the thing and then go looking for a more challenging place to stalk real prey in.
People need to stop trying to win a game in the design stage by making it too easy, because then it will suck and we'll all leave to go play something else.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising