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MMO Griefers

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Minotaur
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Zekna wrote:
Zekna wrote:

Brand X wrote:
PvP: If you enter a pvp zone and don't want to pvp, leave the pvp zone. Though I think CoT is going a different route with this anyways so it's not really an issue. The only other way to be PvPed is to flag yourself for PvP, so just don't flag yourself.
Gold Spammers: Report and ignore.
The Chat Hole: Get over yourself, use ignore, use chat filter and move on.
Lookie Me: Ignore
Pushers: Move to a different instance or fight your way through. Nothing should stop them from standing where they want to.
Aggressive ERPer (never seen this one): Ignore!
Evil herder: Step away from that area!

Yeah I'd have to agree with Brand X. People, use the ignore function that is why it is there. same with the look at me's and pushers, if they are bothering you switch to a different instance. It really isn't that hard to do. take a moment to put them on ignore or switch instances so they won't bother you anymore. Problem solved.

This depends on how chat is configured. Example from NW, trade and zone chat cover all instances of that zone, so you can't just try a new instance, as a consequence many people turn those channels off.

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If we're setup like CoH, we

If we're setup like CoH, we'll have good global channels to be part of which should be self regulating and not need CoT GM interference.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

Oh, yeah. Account wide + play time, definitely. Okay, maybe not six hours. One hour would probably be enough to discourage the behavior. Cruel and unusual punishment is not the goal. Modifying behavior is the goal. Cruel and unusual punishment is just an effective and amusing means. :)

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Revolution wrote:
Revolution wrote:

I for one would be against any sort of player involvement in punishments of infractions of our "griefing" laws.

It is indeed a Very Bad Idea (tm) to make players responsible for law enforcement.

At the very least you run into Marian's 'Tailor's Dilemma' (also know as 'The Stamp Collector's Dilemma')
The worst possible outcome is that you introduce a meta griefing game within the game itself.

Rules must be set, and enforced, by the life-team of the game. They are the only ones who should have sufficient distance from the conflicts that require moderation.

p.s. I strongly disagree with the notion that 'players should develop thick skins' when it comes to dealing with offensive or abusive language and/or behaviour. Players should be required to have no thinner skins than they have when dealing with physical interaction with people. Note that I am not refering to 'real life' here because game behaviour is very much real life too.

Abusive, sexist, racist, mysoginist or bullying language and actions are no more acceptable because the platform is a game instead of a soap box or a youtube video. Being rude and using cursewords and fould epithets are no more acceptable in game either than they are outside of it.
of course, conversely, it is also true that anything that is acceptable outside the game should be allowed inside it as well (and there will always be a bit of a grey area where offensive language is not recognised as such within certain groups or subcultures. The use of words like 'gay' and 'sissy' come to mind. This is a difficult thing for the life team to police in any game)

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When I made the comment of

When I made the comment of thicker skins, to be fair, I think they need it in real life too. Seriously, when you get offended by someone's beliefs (political/religious/whatever) or vulgar language and don't know how to just walk away or shut them out...well...I can't help but think "Grow up" :p /Ignore is the feature perfectly setup for this and allows people who PAY to play to keep playing.

Mendicant
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The problem, Brand X, is that

The problem, Brand X, is that tends to lead to 'people being bullied should shut up and take it, because it's unfair to stop bullies from verbally abusing people'.

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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

The problem, Brand X, is that tends to lead to 'people being bullied should shut up and take it, because it's unfair to stop bullies from verbally abusing people'.

Yeah that's the problem with that argument.

Although it does not work entirely in an environment were you can easily just hit ignore to completely eliminate the guy/gal threatening to clog your chat channel with stupidity. The problem is that these trolls usually target newbies that are not even aware of the ignore system. I have seen this countless times in other MMOs were someone new asks some questions and some asshole rolls in and starts harassing them or gives them completely wrong information in purpose (the old Alt+F4 trick)

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Brand X
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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

The problem, Brand X, is that tends to lead to 'people being bullied should shut up and take it, because it's unfair to stop bullies from verbally abusing people'.

I'd argue that if you're getting bullied over a chat channel and don't know how to ignore or ask for how to ignore, it's on you. Personally, I just like to see a game where they don't go banning players because someone read something (like someones bio) or said something (in chat) and they couldn't handle it or didn't like it.

Time to take in some personal accountability. Don't like what someone says, put them on ignore. Don't like what you start reading in their bio, stop reading. If that's not good enough, then open up the gates cause I'm more easily offended by some dumb joke character I'd rather not see, because I can't put their avatar on ignore. :p

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I had to sign up so I could

I had to sign up so I could come in and cast my opinion for dealing with LOOKIE MES! Since as an avid RP'r, I know how mood really... really affects the experience.

Stealing an idea from Second Life; not only have an Ignore option, but a Derender option. Derender turns the character into a floating ball of puff for you, and you alone. That way you no longer see them. You could derender without ignoring, just in case you're teamed up with them, but they just happen to be too effect-full for you to keep following along, (like the high level fire/regen tanks and such where there were so many auras going on at once!)

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ClawsofSlash wrote:
ClawsofSlash wrote:

I had to sign up so I could come in and cast my opinion for dealing with LOOKIE MES! Since as an avid RP'r, I know how mood really... really affects the experience.
Stealing an idea from Second Life; not only have an Ignore option, but a Derender option. Derender turns the character into a floating ball of puff for you, and you alone. That way you no longer see them. You could derender without ignoring, just in case you're teamed up with them, but they just happen to be too effect-full for you to keep following along, (like the high level fire/regen tanks and such where there were so many auras going on at once!)

I didn't know about this in Second Life. I would VERY much like to see this in Titans

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Once upon a time

Once upon a time
in Atlas Park
some jerk said something that made a lot of people mad.
The Mighty Paladin ignored him but the chat window still kept filling up with everyone else arguing with him and complaining about him.
Paladin didn't want to ignore everyone, and probably couldn't anyway
so he typed into his chat window
"It's easy enough to ignore him but it doesn't do me any good if everyone else is going to keep talking about him"
The chat window fell silent for more than a minute
then slowly people started talking about other things.
The End

Yes, this is a true story.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I didn't know about this in Second Life. I would VERY much like to see this in Titans

Yes Plz. No more looking at a Brightly Colored Sonic (Resonance) Dispersion Shield. :/

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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Once upon a time
in Atlas Park
some jerk said something that made a lot of people mad.
The Mighty Paladin ignored him but the chat window still kept filling up with everyone else arguing with him and complaining about him.
Paladin didn't want to ignore everyone, and probably couldn't anyway
so he typed into his chat window
"It's easy enough to ignore him but it doesn't do me any good if everyone else is going to keep talking about him"
The chat window fell silent for more than a minute
then slowly people started talking about other things.
The End
Yes, this is a true story.

there you go! :)

ClawsofSlash
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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I didn't know about this in Second Life. I would VERY much like to see this in Titans

Indeed! My wife uses it when at clubs in order to hide people with... anatomy she does not want to see. Since she still enjoys hanging out at said clubs.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Mendicant wrote:
The problem, Brand X, is that tends to lead to 'people being bullied should shut up and take it, because it's unfair to stop bullies from verbally abusing people'.

I'd argue that if you're getting bullied over a chat channel and don't know how to ignore or ask for how to ignore, it's on you. Personally, I just like to see a game where they don't go banning players because someone read something (like someones bio) or said something (in chat) and they couldn't handle it or didn't like it.
Time to take in some personal accountability. Don't like what someone says, put them on ignore. Don't like what you start reading in their bio, stop reading.

Agreed 100%

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Hide the Auras of name@global

Hide the Auras of name@global.
Hide the Avatar of name@global.
Hide both Auras and Avatar of name@global.

Make it easy to access name@global to engage the functions and you're all set.

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I think there are three

I think there are three angles to attack such problems.

From the players side:
Players should definitely get some "self defense tools" to ignore and report others. I think it would be a good idea to set the ignore up in a way that it also prevents your graphics card to render any special effect the ignored character has. Or reduce to a barely visible minimum at least.
Graphic options like "only render special effects of teammates and or friends" could also help.

From the game design side:
Limits to how long enemys follow people around could make it a lot more difficult to gather up hordes of enemys and drop them of on unsuspecting players. Safe zones around stores, crafting stations and trainers, where police drones like in City of Heroes just remove threads from the game or better yet, the AI just wont enter, can help a lot too.
Something could surely be done to prevent players shoving others around. Either by letting them pass trough each other or not allowing them to push anyone at all. Even if we do get unstoppable pedestrians again, that can shove eight feet robots around...

And finally from moderator side:
Moderators should have authority. For that it is important, I believe, that they have punishments available that are really uncomfortable. But all that is not worth much if they do not use those strictly and let themselves get drawn into discussions. If it is felt that one could negoiate himself out of a ban, the punishment itself looses it's edge. And they need to act fast and be visible.
Bigger events, like a regular costume contest could, if possible, have a GM present anyway, so if someone really disturbs it said GM can react immediately. Even if there is not always someone there, the risk of running into a moderator and get banned for disrupting the event should be there and could help discouraging it alltogether.
I know those are utopian ideals, but one could try to get as close to them as possible.

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As I've recently come under

As I've recently come under some out of game harassment/stalking that has no way of being stopped really, the idea of in game moderation seems like a joke. :p They can't do it in game, they'll do it out of it!

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

As I've recently come under some out of game harassment/stalking that has no way of being stopped really, the idea of in game moderation seems like a joke. :p They can't do it in game, they'll do it out of it!

What's Up X?
Need us to beat someone up for you?

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Brand X
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TheMightyPaladin wrote:
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

Brand X wrote:
As I've recently come under some out of game harassment/stalking that has no way of being stopped really, the idea of in game moderation seems like a joke. :p They can't do it in game, they'll do it out of it!

What's Up X?
Need us to beat someone up for you?

Nah, but the point is, griefers will find a way. I'd stick with just /ignore being a really good option.

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OK

OK
but just remember
we got yer back

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Something like that is

Something like that is impossible for anyone in the game to fix, X. A group of your friends in the game could add to any complaints and I would hope we would be able to keep an eye on any problems in our"jurisdiction", though. Anyone who goes out of game to harass it's definitely mental. Or 14 and bored.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Mendicant wrote:
The problem, Brand X, is that tends to lead to 'people being bullied should shut up and take it, because it's unfair to stop bullies from verbally abusing people'.

I'd argue that if you're getting bullied over a chat channel and don't know how to ignore or ask for how to ignore, it's on you. Personally, I just like to see a game where they don't go banning players because someone read something (like someones bio) or said something (in chat) and they couldn't handle it or didn't like it.
Time to take in some personal accountability. Don't like what someone says, put them on ignore. Don't like what you start reading in their bio, stop reading. If that's not good enough, then open up the gates cause I'm more easily offended by some dumb joke character I'd rather not see, because I can't put their avatar on ignore. :p

I just find it interesting that it's always the bullied who are supposed to take personal accountability and never the bullies.

I'm in favor of ignore lists and other tools to minimize the effect that harassers can have on people, but having those tools does not mean that those doing the harassing should be left to go harass other people.

Note I'm not talking about 'I didn't like that person's bio' nonsense. I'm talking about things like a person following someone around for an hour, attacking every mob they approach. Or opening up constant trade requests. Or staying in front of a person and constantly firing off power effects so the person cannot enjoy the game. You know, harassment.

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why there needs to be an

why there needs to be an active, and fair, review done by moderators. as mentioned, "ignore" can be a nice lil tool, but should the harassment go beyond just yammer in the chat channel it's time to do some reporting with action being taken, as necessary against the offending party...and banning as needing.

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Mendicant wrote:
Mendicant wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Mendicant wrote:
The problem, Brand X, is that tends to lead to 'people being bullied should shut up and take it, because it's unfair to stop bullies from verbally abusing people'.

I'd argue that if you're getting bullied over a chat channel and don't know how to ignore or ask for how to ignore, it's on you. Personally, I just like to see a game where they don't go banning players because someone read something (like someones bio) or said something (in chat) and they couldn't handle it or didn't like it.
Time to take in some personal accountability. Don't like what someone says, put them on ignore. Don't like what you start reading in their bio, stop reading. If that's not good enough, then open up the gates cause I'm more easily offended by some dumb joke character I'd rather not see, because I can't put their avatar on ignore. :p

I just find it interesting that it's always the bullied who are supposed to take personal accountability and never the bullies.
I'm in favor of ignore lists and other tools to minimize the effect that harassers can have on people, but having those tools does not mean that those doing the harassing should be left to go harass other people.
Note I'm not talking about 'I didn't like that person's bio' nonsense. I'm talking about things like a person following someone around for an hour, attacking every mob they approach. Or opening up constant trade requests. Or staying in front of a person and constantly firing off power effects so the person cannot enjoy the game. You know, harassment.

See, right there. While I never did it, and found it rude, I never considered the attacking of mobs someone else is attacking, as harassment. If the mob is in the open world, it's fair game for everyone. Don't like it, get into an instance.

My idea of the bullied taking accountability is more of a lack of trust in other people. People who get hurt over the slightest thing and call it harassment.

Then there's the others who get harassed and then genericed because others can't handle it.

Let's go with Red Skull. Captain American villain! Player just made a Red Skull homage of some sort. Guess who just got hounded by other players for making a Nazi. Then the GM decided to side with the players. Nevermind that they did exist and there are such characters in the source material.

Constantly firing off power effects, then those just standing around the AP equivalent and not turning off their powers and maybe having one on auto just harassed everyone.

And after being genericed for the name Void Girl in CoH (GM was dumb and thought it was a licensed character, it wasn't) and losing it to someone else by the time I proved it wasn't or the 3 day suspension for saying my character was forcefully tied up and taken prisoner (the being tied up part was just to much for the game...never mind it mentioned other things they didn't seem to bat an eye at) and not getting reimbursed for it though glad to keep money, makes me want to error on the side of caution and not trust someone who is likely way to sensitive to be in such a position in the first place. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

And after being genericed for the name Void Girl in CoH (GM was dumb and thought it was a licensed character, it wasn't) and losing it to someone else by the time I proved it wasn't or the 3 day suspension for saying my character was forcefully tied up and taken prisoner (the being tied up part was just to much for the game...never mind it mentioned other things they didn't seem to bat an eye at) and not getting reimbursed for it though glad to keep money, makes me want to error on the side of caution and not trust someone who is likely way to sensitive to be in such a position in the first place. :p

in these situation, especially the name one, I would hope that some kind of research is being done on the part of the mods. although, given CoT will not be using unique names, losing one, even if temporarily, should not be an issue.

in regards to the "tied up" portion...not sure how that all came out, so context may have something to do with it. if you were talking about your characters backstory (or it was in the characters bio) seems a silly reason to be hit with a temp ban hammer. as players, it would be nice to be able to 'appeal' some decisions...and have these happen in a timely manner.

I will say though, that some things, even if story driven and/or have precedence in real life, should be avoided....and we all are relatively smart people and know what we should and should not bring up in a public forum.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

See, right there. While I never did it, and found it rude, I never considered the attacking of mobs someone else is attacking, as harassment. If the mob is in the open world, it's fair game for everyone. Don't like it, get into an instance.

I'm not talking about one or two cases of attacking a mob someone else was after. I'm talking about a player following another one around for one or more hours, deliberately, maliciously, and constantly interfering with their ability to play the game. You may be okay with that type of behavior, I am not.

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I think we just have to put

I think we just have to put some trust in our moderators to stay reasonable. If they do not, that is a valid reason to stop playing their game and I think they know that very well. And if not, they will find out very soon. So they have to use common sense and carefully weight every option against each other.

A power accidentally left on autocast is no offense. Very few people will find that annoying enough to report and even fewer moderators will find it worth punishing.
Someone letting off a little steam is no offense either.
But there is a line one should not cross where the obvious intent behind something is just to annoy and frustrate other people, so that they can no longer enjoy what they do. Sure, some people are annoyed easily and take things as insult that was not meant to be one. It is justified to tell them to grow a thicker skin, yes. But you can not expect everyone to tolerate intentionally rude behavior forever.
There has to be some point where intervention from a moderator should happen. Most people draw the line on a level somewhere around what Mendicant described as harassment. And most people would, if repeatedly exposed to that kind of behavior, just leave the game. In my opinion that is reason enough to justify the banning of a player.
Brand X, you seem to be tougher than most. That is great, I envy you for that. But keep in mind that this is an exceptional talent, very few people have that kind of thick skin or even the potential to archive it. I agree that we should not try to cater to the whims of the overly sensitive, but we should also not expect everyone to be as tough as you.

To be honest, I tend to be too sensitive myself. I learned my limits, learned that they are exceptionally low and how to deal with that. Let us meet in the middle, shall we?

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

ClawsofSlash wrote:
I had to sign up so I could come in and cast my opinion for dealing with LOOKIE MES! Since as an avid RP'r, I know how mood really... really affects the experience.
Stealing an idea from Second Life; not only have an Ignore option, but a Derender option. Derender turns the character into a floating ball of puff for you, and you alone. That way you no longer see them. You could derender without ignoring, just in case you're teamed up with them, but they just happen to be too effect-full for you to keep following along, (like the high level fire/regen tanks and such where there were so many auras going on at once!)

I didn't know about this in Second Life. I would VERY much like to see this in Titans

I've asked for this sort of thing before for a different reason. We had an epileptic in our SG, the pulsing electric control sleep set him off particularly if in a lightish colour. I had motion sickness triggered by the hurricane graphics and headache problems with the early sonic graphics. The ability to turn of graphics for particular characters and/or powers would be extremely useful.

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