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Missing heals

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TheInternetJanitor
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Missing heals

Let me relate a little memory from CoH that I'm sure others here will share with me. There was one ( I think it was unique in this?) heal ability in CoH that could miss. This was because it was designed as an offensive ability (even though I don't think it did damage) that targeted an enemy, and if that debuff failed to land the heal wouldn't fire off at all. Darkness, I'm looking at you. This could result in those tense moments where teammates were injured, lives were at risk, it was the support's moment to shine........and then sad trombone noises played and a major feature of your character just fails to work. Nothing felt worse than a failed heal.

I know I read that as a matter of design, CoT abilities will only miss if enemies have improved defenses and/or our characters are hampered. I'm just really hoping that none of the healing abilities are going to be based off a to-hit check. At least not support abilities that heal others, where the main point of the ability is healing. Especially when it is the only heal in a support set. These all combined to make it feel much more impactful compared to missing other abilities.

If I remember right, the rez in darkness also needed to target an enemy but I don't think it could miss. Which made the decision for the heal to miss all the more baffling.

meta brawler
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I was really quite fond of

I was really quite fond of the darkness secondary. The heal, while able to miss, was a really large aoe heal. I ran several toons with it and never had a problem with it or caused any team deaths in TFs or Incarnate trials. I built my toons with haste, recharge reducers, and accuracy buffs along with IOs. My recharge was low enough that I would start fights with howling twilight (the rez approx. 35sec recharge) for the debuff, drop the tar patch, toggle the accuracy debuff, then have the target heal on auto cast. Throw in attacks or instruct pets to attack targets. Reapply debuffs as needed. I think that for certain power sets it makes sense to have the hit or miss mechanic. While the skill level cap does increase, it also keeps it interesting and exciting. For me the best part was trying to come up with solutions to mitigate a missed heal and resulted in kitting out the rest of the power set to compensate for not having an auto heal.

These are my bases:

CoH Base
https://imgur.com/a/HbskR

Citadel Forged With Fire
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rookslide
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It seems like there were a

It seems like there were a few other heals that could miss from time to time but I’m at a loss for which ones. I didn’t play defenders often but I’m pretty sure a few other heals would miss occasionally. Not a lot but once in a while.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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I kinda liked the variety

I kinda liked the variety this sort of design decision provided in the old game. It kept power sets from all feeling the same.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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rookslide wrote:
rookslide wrote:

It seems like there were a few other heals that could miss from time to time but I’m at a loss for which ones. I didn’t play defenders often but I’m pretty sure a few other heals would miss occasionally. Not a lot but once in a while.

Having played it for so long, I remember it well:

Kinetics - Transfusion

TheInternetJanitor
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I'm not saying it didn't work

I'm not saying it didn't work, just that it felt awful when it missed. The ability worked, and you can design sets around that kind of mechanic by having missable abilities be more potent to make up for missing and having to slot accuracy into them instead of other benefits. You could even design offensive heals so that they fired the heal first, then checked a to-hit roll for the offensive part of the ability, so the attack part could miss but the heal would always fire.

It just feels really bad if it is your only heal. I remember if it would miss twice in a row that was really a sad time. Not a common thing to have happen, but all the more memorable because of it.

If the set had overlapping powers then having one miss wouldn't be a big deal, but darkness in particular was a mixed bag of control, buffs, debuffs, and healing. I loved that about it. Because the abilities didn't have a lot of overlap, though, having one taken away from you felt like a big deal.

Healing is also more noticeable to players than other kinds of protection. I know that preventing damage is essentially the same as healing it back (arguably better) but it can be difficult for players to understand that. Unless the enemies are completely helpless and taken out of action players don't usually think about how that incoming damage is being prevented. Players getting buffed tend to often just think "well I sure am incredible, I am doing well because I am clearly amazing" without understanding where that performance enhancement comes from. HP bars are very clear and obvious though, and when they see that HP not going back up when they expect heals they can get pretty upset about it.

CoT clearly understands that "missing isn't fun" as they specifically talked about it in other places. I just felt like sharing my 2 cents about heals in particular in this regard. It really applies to many abilities.

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Having certain heals able to

Having certain heals able to miss makes sense.

If you try to siphon health from a foe and they dodge it what are you healing with?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

TheInternetJanitor
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A better healing power set

A better healing power set (ba dum ching)

In all seriousness, yes, you can balance abilities around hitting and missing. It just needs to be done with care, and it has more impact (psychologically even if the math ends up the same) on some powers compared to others.

e: there were very few powers that actually "drained health" from enemies. I think just one in darkness melee and it was a self heal only? The others were debuffs.There is no reason the different parts of abilities can't have their own rolls, or auto hit. As previously mentioned, there were a lot of powers that did just that. Even in darkness, I seem to remember the revive power had no miss chance, even though it targeted enemies and had debuff/control components. Thematically it was supposed to be "draining" them to revive, but that is just flavor text and could be written any way you wanted it to be written.

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Look under Power Sets,

Look under Power Sets, Support, Vampiric Emanation - tier 1 Leech Essence.


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TheInternetJanitor
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Look under Power Sets, Support, Vampiric Emanation - tier 1 Leech Essence.

This doesn't say if it can miss or not.

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TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Look under Power Sets, Support, Vampiric Emanation - tier 1 Leech Essence.

This doesn't say if it can miss or not.

I'd assume it can be evaded, at least the initial debuff. Which without said debuff the rest of the effects wouldn't activate.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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It is an attack - the primary

It is an attack - the primary effect being a debuff.
If your character is affected by a debuff that results in an increase of your Miss Rate, or the enemy has an Evssion buff, there is a chance it can miss.


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I'm all for it. Nothing gets

I'm all for it. Nothing gets your heart beating like being low on health and having your heal miss. That is a real OH $#!÷ moment. Which forces you to change up your tactics on the fly.

These are my bases:

CoH Base
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Citadel Forged With Fire
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Here's a question.

Here's a question.

If your character is affected by something that gives you miss chance can your ally targeting buffs miss?

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Here's a question.

If your character is affected by something that gives you miss chance can your ally targeting buffs miss?

If the power power isn’t an attack or provides a buff dependent upon an attack hiting, then the buff automatically hits, it does not go through the to-hit calculation.


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I have no problem with a heal

I have no problem with a heal that can miss and had no problem with Darkness set. If one can't handle that, one shouldn't play the set, really. Also, with it giving a negative effect to the target, don't you think it should have a chance to not hit?

This is CoT as well, so they can have that in a set and it won't matter, because you can always pick a different set to turn into your darkness theme set (just using darkness as an example here) and not be all "I hate this, but I want darkness for my concept"

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More limitations means more

More limitations means more fun.

I played one or two Kinetics toons in CoH and Transfusion was a BALLER heal. It did more healing to make up for the fact that it could miss. Tankers would send me tells like "wow, I actually noticed how much you were healing me, what power is that?" etc. I can't remember of Fulcrum Shift was "accurate" or not, but I think it should have been, given how good it was when it worked.

If you think about it, big bad bosses and giant monsters and archvillains had to have all sorts of debuff immunities or resistances in CoX in order to make them somewhat harder to take down when facing a whole Task Force or Trial squad. If you just made the anchored debuff aura powers like Lingering Radiation need a to-hit roll, that might not have been necessary.

The chance you might miss makes the game more tense and exciting. That's part of the fun.

Whenever I hear anyone on these forums say stuff like "I think you should do what CoX did but with the restrictive ________ thing removed, because I hate when _______ causes me to be less combat efficient." it sounds, to my ears, like a chess player saying "Why can't I just move all of my pieces like a queen moves? This pawn sucks, why do they give me all these pawns and only ONE queen? The queen is awesome, I want all queens. Well, maybe keep the knights too, but definitely queens."

It's like people want to win the game in the design stage by designing a game that comes pre-won for them, straight out of the box.

Edit: I just checked Paragonwiki. Basically all of the Kinetics powers were "roll to hit" powers. Also, looking at Kinetics on that site reminded me of my OTHER other favorite power for that set: Transference. It was like Transfusion, except it healed everyone's Endo. Such Endo. Very power buff. Who want's Speed Boost? *sigh* good times....

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

meta brawler
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Yup I remember missing a few

Yup I remember missing a few Fulcrum on my kin, even being 6 slotted and with IOs. That's why haste, recharge, and alt tactics were so fundemental to those types of builds.

These are my bases:

CoH Base
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Citadel Forged With Fire
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Loved the kinetics set.

Loved the kinetics set. Transfusion was sometimes under-rated by people. I would even get rejected from teams because they didn't think the set could heal at all! When given a chance, I could usually convince them otherwise.
Missing was tough and especially when there was a damage spike. But good healing practices and the proper augments made up for it as well as the other buffs offered by the set. (Let's not even talk about how OP Fulcrum Shift was...) The to hit component actually forced me to be a better healer. When I switched to empathy sets, I got bored fast. It was much easier (relatively) to correct a healing mistake... Yeah healers make mistakes :-)

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The only real limitation of

The only real limitation of Transfusion was the fact that it could only heal people who were in melee range of the (enemy) target. You could manage the hit/miss problem with accuracy and recharge rate enhancements, but you couldn't really heal Blasters with it.

Edit: and for the record I'm not suggesting they should have re-wired it to the point where you COULD heal Blasters better, just that this was it's drawback. It's OK for powers to have drawbacks.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I remember I got my main (DB

I remember I got my main (DB/WP Scrapper) setup with IOs to such a point, I helped Kinetic users out by not needing Speed Boost. Never had end issues, and the extra recharge didn't help my dps at all.

Now, lots of them SBed me anyways, because I believe the common tactic was to just go down the list and hit with SB :p

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I would usually ask for

I would usually ask for people to tell me if the didn't want SB. Some folks didn't need it and others couldn't manage the extra movement. I also think it may have messed up certain rotations that depended on powers overlapping but I'm not certain about that.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

More limitations means more fun.

The chance you might miss makes the game more tense and exciting. That's part of the fun.

Whenever I hear anyone on these forums say stuff like "I think you should do what CoX did but with the restrictive ________ thing removed, because I hate when _______ causes me to be less combat efficient." it sounds, to my ears, like a chess player saying "Why can't I just move all of my pieces like a queen moves? This pawn sucks, why do they give me all these pawns and only ONE queen? The queen is awesome, I want all queens. Well, maybe keep the knights too, but definitely queens."

It's like people want to win the game in the design stage by designing a game that comes pre-won for them, straight out of the box.

This!

I feel like this too and it happens over and over and those people act like no one else gets it... when really they don’t!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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More limitations do not

More limitations do not inherently make things more fun. Using the chess example limiting all the pieces to move and take like pawns wouldn't make chess more fun, you'd then be playing a weird, less interesting, version of checkers.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

More limitations do not inherently make things more fun. Using the chess example limiting all the pieces to move and take like pawns wouldn't make chess more fun, you'd then be playing a weird, less interesting, version of checkers.

As you say going to the other "extreme" doesn't make it more fun either, so the answer lays somewhere in between. Gives us some limitations so that we have to make meaningful choices, but also to increase variation between the sets and such.

rookslide
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

More limitations do not inherently make things more fun. Using the chess example limiting all the pieces to move and take like pawns wouldn't make chess more fun, you'd then be playing a weird, less interesting, version of checkers.

This was not his or my point an carrys it to the extreme of what was said.

The point is everything we don’t like or “feel good about” doesn’t have to be nerfed. It’s ok that some things aren’t easy!

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

It's OK for powers to have drawbacks.

Agreed 100%. It makes the sets and powers, and the gameplay experience in general, more distinct and interesting.

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The aim of a game is to

The aim of a game is to entertain. If something is in a game that people don't like or doesn't feel good it should be adjusted.

Note that this would be for a majority of people, I am well aware of the impossibility of pleasing 100% of the people 100% of the time.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

rookslide
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The aim of a game is to entertain. If something is in a game that people don't like or doesn't feel good it should be adjusted.

Note that this would be for a majority of people, I am well aware of the impossibility of pleasing 100% of the people 100% of the time.

I am in agreement with this. In particular the last note.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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I hated getting hit with SB

I hated getting hit with SB in cave missions or in the office mission. It was almost impossible to move.

But I did like the power and it was useful sometimes. When I had a Kinetic I would often SB newbies to help them move around in Atlas Park

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

More limitations do not inherently make things more fun. Using the chess example limiting all the pieces to move and take like pawns wouldn't make chess more fun, you'd then be playing a weird, less interesting, version of checkers.

Right but "rarity" can provide the opposite way to generate "more fun" - in chess you start off with eight pawns but only one queen. The general limitations of the pawns makes the queen that much more "valuable".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The aim of a game is to entertain. If something is in a game that people don't like or doesn't feel good it should be adjusted.

Note that this would be for a majority of people, I am well aware of the impossibility of pleasing 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Nobody likes it when they shoot at something and miss. Going by your logic we should remove all forms of hit/miss from the game so that people will be less frustrated by the missing. Even in a pure PVE game I think we can all agree that "never worry about missing anything, ever. " is going too far. So all we're arguing about is where to draw the line. I think I like the inclusion of heals that need a roll to hit, personally. That's my take on that.

If you start from "there is no missing" you no longer have any upward room to grow from there. If you start with "hit or miss" you can add in stuff that enhances accuracy later, like enhancers, buffs, etc.

More severe limitations, from the start, allow for more fun creative ways to overcome or get around them later. Obviously, this idea could be taken too far as well, so like I said, I think we agree it's a sliding scale and its a question of where to draw the line.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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There has a been a whole lot

There has a been a whole lot of hyperbole thrown around. RNG, like any spice, can add flavor if used in moderation with and the recipe calls for it.

The concern is that it is very easy not to do that well. Moreover, even when done well, human psychology and random luck can mean RNG can give a poor experience. It isn't a badge of honor to get a few bad dice rolls and it doesn't force a change in tactics if you truly lost a fight to RNG and not to poor decision making. If I bite off more than I can chew it doesn't matter if the game has no to hit rolls at all, I'll still get smacked around.

Modern games have steadily moved away from boardgame style heavy RNG because people aren't a fan of heavy random chance. They want to feel like they earned success and failure. Luck can feel fun when it is in your favor but it definitely sticks in people's memory when it is against them. People like results that feel fair. Even games that heavily rely on RNG like bloodbowl or xcom do so on a long timeline so you'll be throwing lots of dice to even out the highs and lows. They also provide a fair amount of do-over and no-roll-required backup options and ways to stack odds in your favor. In those cases your tactics really do influence the outcome over time even though the player has to take chances and roll dice.

The reason I mentioned the dark heal in my original post was because it met something of a perfect storm of criteria to make it memorable. The set didn't have other heals, and it didn't have a super fast cooldown. It was a core facet of the set. If it flopped, it was noticeable. It wasn't spammable and it wasn't a super move that you rarely used. Ideally you used the rest of the toolkit to prevent your team from taking much, if any, damage. The set was well designed and it worked. The plain fact, though, is that while over time the numbers may have been comparable to other sets, what players *remember* is that one time out of a hundred when your heal flopped twice in a row, and the team wiped, and the group gave up and wanted a new healer.

They don't remember the other 99 times when the same abilities did just fine. It isn't that much of a stretch to expect a support to be able to support after all. It wouldn't be terribly fun if your tank would just fall over and die once or twice a day because his protections turned themselves off.

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I think there's also another

I think there's also another form of "heals that need to hit", that is somewhat related to this discussion. That is heals that consume a resource generated by hitting. There are several games with this mechanic. Secret World Legends, Rift and Warhammer Online being the first that come to my mind.

City of Titans has the momentum resource. There are power sets that build momentum by hitting, by dodging, and by other means, but I don't see any that use momentum generated by hitting that also use it for healing. However, I have good faith that @Tannim222 already has one set up for testing and inclusion in the future.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The aim of a game is to entertain. If something is in a game that people don't like or doesn't feel good it should be adjusted.

Note that this would be for a majority of people, I am well aware of the impossibility of pleasing 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Nobody likes it when they shoot at something and miss. Going by your logic we should remove all forms of hit/miss from the game so that people will be less frustrated by the missing. Even in a pure PVE game I think we can all agree that "never worry about missing anything, ever. " is going too far. So all we're arguing about is where to draw the line. I think I like the inclusion of heals that need a roll to hit, personally. That's my take on that.

If you start from "there is no missing" you no longer have any upward room to grow from there. If you start with "hit or miss" you can add in stuff that enhances accuracy later, like enhancers, buffs, etc.

More severe limitations, from the start, allow for more fun creative ways to overcome or get around them later. Obviously, this idea could be taken too far as well, so like I said, I think we agree it's a sliding scale and its a question of where to draw the line.

You can build a game around not having a miss chance. You just need to shift the gameplay to compensate.

For example a game that you never miss but relies heavily on say, interrupting attacks. You hit 100% of the time, but it's getting to do that hit that has the risk factor. You'd have to wait for openings or make them. Much more active than a simple hit or miss mechanic.

For what it's worth I'm fine with what the devs seem to be doing here. Having heals with detrimental effects for foes being able to be avoided makes sense... Well, as long as regular debuffs also follow suit.

And you don't really need upward growth in a game, you can grow sideways, giving a player more options rather than more power.

I'm not arguing that we need such things in CoT, just that games can be built differently from the norm.

But from what I understand from how CoT is going to operate there is no miss chance by default. You can be made to miss, and things can have evasion to dodge. I like that much better than a static miss chance. You don't miss because the game randomly decided you do, there's reasons behind it, actions that had to be taken. Makes it feel so much more controllable, more fair somehow.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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I mean, do you hit the basket

I mean, do you hit the basket every time you toss a crumpled piece of paper? It makes sense there is a chance to miss.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The only real limitation of Transfusion was the fact that it could only heal people who were in melee range of the (enemy) target. You could manage the hit/miss problem with accuracy and recharge rate enhancements, but you couldn't really heal Blasters with it.

Edit: and for the record I'm not suggesting they should have re-wired it to the point where you COULD heal Blasters better, just that this was it's drawback. It's OK for powers to have drawbacks.

Transfusion also had the problem that (due to being a pseudo-pet) if the target died during the animation the heal wouldn't trigger (because there was no target for the pet-spawn). Dark's heal being player based didn't suffer from that since it was a direct effect from the caster.

As for me, I was and am perfectly fine with offensive-type heals requiring a to-hit check. Does it suck when it misses? Yes. Yes it does. But such is life.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I mean, do you hit the basket every time you toss a crumpled piece of paper? It makes sense there is a chance to miss.

I'm not a superhero.

Ever see Batman just straight up miss with a batarang? Usually if his 'rang misses the target it's because it was dodged or something messed with Bat's eyesight. He's never like, "I am Vengeance, I am the night! *Squint, batarang, miss* aw, shit."

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This again?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I mean, do you hit the basket every time you toss a crumpled piece of paper? It makes sense there is a chance to miss.

I'm not a superhero.

That's a lazy excuse for an answer, and you know it.

Project_Hero wrote:

Ever see Batman just straight up miss with a batarang?

Yes.

All kidding aside. Think for a moment about what you're asking, and the context.

Any time Batman "misses" with a batarang, you increase either the page count (comic book) or the runtime (moving pictures) of what is a finite resource, either pages or minutes of film. In comic books especially, they haven't got the page count (or even the frame count) to "waste on missing" throws with batarangs ... so they don't ... and you can get away with that sort of thing in a tightly scripted comic book or a movie (or a TV show). That's because everything that happens has to happen within a defined and limited amount of (temporal) space. You've only got but so many pages or minutes to tell your story, and anything that isn't contributing to the telling of THAT story gets cut. That's just the nature of the beast.

I mean, bloopers happen during production ... but they get cut from the movie.

This means that the only times Batman is "allowed to miss" with a batarang is when it serves a DRAMATIC PURPOSE. The same thing happens with 007. James Bond hits with every shot he makes, except when it serves some dramatic (and therefore scripted) purpose for him to miss his shots in his films and stories.

Those ... constraints ... do not exist the same way in a game. So long as what you're doing doesn't have a time limit counting down on it, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to finish your fights, or defuse the bomb, or keep throwing batarangs until you hit. In a GAME, what's happening isn't following a "script" that takes everything you do as a Player and then sends it to an editing room to cut out the bloopers. You can progress through an instanced map at your own pace, whether that be fast or slow. You can miss your target just fine, so long as you "get them eventually" ... and so on.

My point here is that the medium is different.
Games are not scripted comic books.
Games are not scripted and carefully edited together movies that keep only the "best bits" for us to watch.

Imagine watching a movie ... with NO EDITS ... in which you get to watch every blooper or fail in the sequence of filming before moving on to the next bit. THAT "unedited experience" is more like how a game plays. And while I'm sure there are some people out there who can "nail it" right the first time, every time, they tend to be the exception, rather than the rule, whether you're talking about gamers or actors. Stage actors usually need rehearsals to get what they're doing right live on stage. But once you throw away rehearsals and start just putting random people together on stage to perform live, you often aren't acting out a script anymore ... you're doing improv ... in which ANYTHING can happen (and often does, which is what makes improv hilarious to watch).

Project_Hero wrote:

Usually if his 'rang misses the target it's because it was dodged or something messed with Bat's eyesight. He's never like, "I am Vengeance, I am the night! *Squint, batarang, miss* aw, shit."

I'd say that he only misses for reasons of Dramatic Purpose. If there's no dramatic purpose to be served by missing, then Batman simply doesn't miss because of the medium he's being presented in, whether it be comic books, or movies, or "shooter" games (where the expectation is that misses only happen due to Evasion, usually by sprites, rather than an RNG factor in a To Hit roll). Now PEOPLE (like editors and directors and so on) are really good at figuring out if a particular outcome serves a Dramatic Purpose or not ... but computers ... not so much. And in a computer game, there isn't a person making decisions on whether any given throw of the batarang is serving a dramatic purpose (or not) ... there's just the computer adjudicating outcomes based on rules.


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I think you're both correct.

I think you're both correct.

@Project_Hero is right that a badass superhero shouldn't miss. It's just not part of the genre. Period. (And that has almost NOTHING to do with conservation of medium, so please shelve that argument.) On the other hand, there are also badass villains and enemies. And they should be able to make you miss. Case-in-point: the video clip above.

So MWM's mechanic of every power hits unless there is a corresponding defensive mechanic that makes it miss is the best approach in my opinion. Add on to this the fact that a character without much experience is more susceptible to the defensive mechanics than characters with more experience and we get an infusion of reality that coincides nicely with the progression mechanics of an RPG.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Yeah, which is why I said

Yeah, which is why I said that Batman doesn't miss unless something -makes- him miss.

In Red's example clearly flash dodges it.

A dodge is not the same as a miss. Batman never throws a batarang and just missed the target without said target dodging or something affecting Batman's perception.

Which is also why I said earlier in the thread that I like how MWM seems to be handling misses, they don't happen unless something increases enemy evasion or lowers character perception.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Radiac wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

The aim of a game is to entertain. If something is in a game that people don't like or doesn't feel good it should be adjusted.

Note that this would be for a majority of people, I am well aware of the impossibility of pleasing 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Nobody likes it when they shoot at something and miss. Going by your logic we should remove all forms of hit/miss from the game so that people will be less frustrated by the missing. Even in a pure PVE game I think we can all agree that "never worry about missing anything, ever. " is going too far. So all we're arguing about is where to draw the line. I think I like the inclusion of heals that need a roll to hit, personally. That's my take on that.

If you start from "there is no missing" you no longer have any upward room to grow from there. If you start with "hit or miss" you can add in stuff that enhances accuracy later, like enhancers, buffs, etc.

More severe limitations, from the start, allow for more fun creative ways to overcome or get around them later. Obviously, this idea could be taken too far as well, so like I said, I think we agree it's a sliding scale and its a question of where to draw the line.

You can build a game around not having a miss chance. You just need to shift the gameplay to compensate.

For example a game that you never miss but relies heavily on say, interrupting attacks.

Pardon my inability to quote two separate posts in the same response, but this "interrupt" style approach still violates the spirit of your earlier directive, which was "The aim of a game is to entertain. If something is in a game that people don't like or doesn't feel good it should be adjusted."

Nobody likes to miss. Also, nobody likes getting their 100% accurate shots interrupted either. So, by virtue of the fact that I find getting interrupted just as much of a buzzkill as missing at random, you have to take that $h!t out now too, by your own original logic.

Also, in a game, you should have the realism of the occasional miss chance. That's just my opinion, and I'm not a superhero, and I know Hawkeye never misses, etc, but players in games can and should miss sometimes, even if they are superheroes. That's just how I feel about it.

In the movie "Moneyball", Brad Pitt, playing A's general manager Billy Beane, once said "I hate losing. I hate it more than anything. I hate losing more than I even want to win, there's a difference." competitive people hate randomness in games because you can do EVERYTHING right and still lose because the opponent drew the right card at the right time and you didn't. Or they rolled double 6's twice in a row in backgammon, etc. I understand the frustration, but if you want to eradicate all forms of randomness and dumb luck in all the games you play, then I would advise you to stick to chess. That is the one game that comes closest to having zero randomness in it. I like my games to have some element of uncontrollable random dumb luck in them, even when it makes me get defeated or whatever. It adds excitement, for me.

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Why does a game based on a

Why does a game based on a Superhero genre need to have a "realistic" miss chance, exactly?

Hawkeye doesn't miss, why should your Hawkeye homage?

What is a realistic miss chance for a highly skilled individual with abilities beyond that of human capability?

Why should a character like Hawkeye ever miss an attack on your average street thug? What's the realistic chance of him missing an attack on a mugger, exactly?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Why does a game based on a Superhero genre need to have a "realistic" miss chance, exactly?

Hawkeye doesn't miss, why should your Hawkeye homage?

What is a realistic miss chance for a highly skilled individual with abilities beyond that of human capability?

Why should a character like Hawkeye ever miss an attack on your average street thug? What's the realistic chance of him missing an attack on a mugger, exactly?

I prefer it that way because it makes the game more risky, which I like. It's all well and good to read a STORY about a guy that's so good at shooting a bow and arrow that he never misses (during that story...), but in a game where there's supposed to be some danger and some risk, I like hit and miss mechanics better. People who are competitive enough to find it frustrating to the point of throwing their mouse at the wall when they make no mistakes and still lose HATE that, I get that they do, I just am not one of those people. I find the risk element adds to the overall enjoyment for me. I would rather try to optimize a system that's designed to never achieve 100% accuracy at the best of times than play in a frankly much more boring system where I can assume I'll always hit what I aim for. Even highly competitive shooter games have muzzle effects and bullet drift, which is included for realism. Yeah, you're a total bada$$ soldier type, and you're shooting at aliens or whatever, but you're still shooting an AK47, and there's an inherent limit to their accuracy.

In reality, NOBODY could be as accurate with a bow and arrow as Hawkeye is in the comics, given the physical limitations of the bow and arrow as a weapon system. Air currents, etc will push that arrow around in flight in ways that simply cannot be accounted for, period. But that's not why I'd put accuracy in a game like CoT. As I said, I like it better because it makes the game more unpredictable and I find that unpredictability more fun.

It's like, when you buy a raffle ticket for a dollar, you listen to the person calling out the winner with baited breath and anxious anticipation. You don't usually win, but when you do, you go nuts. By comparison, there are "50/50" raffles where you are MUCH more likely to win, but you had to wager like $10 to win $10 more. Whoopty-doo. Way less fun, for me. Then if you just take all the randomness out of it, you're selling $1 tickets for the 100% chance to win your $1 back. That's not even gambling at that point. It's not a game at all. It's just "push button, get thing".

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Missing isn't fun. The chance

Missing isn't fun. The chance to miss doesn't make hitting more fun, with the exception of very low accuracy moves but even then you're more likely to get an "ugh, finally" out of most players than any kind of elation. Or a "what the hell" when the NPCs hit that same attack at a way higher chance, which always seems to happen.

You're free to like random chance. But it doesn't need to be in games, it doesn't need to be shoehorned in.

In a game like CoT, with random chance you can't make a character like Bullseye. Oh your power is you never miss, well too bad! I much prefer the setup of having something make you miss. You're a super hero, you don't miss, but others have powers too and they can make you miss.

Liking random chance so much you're probably going to be playing a lot of characters with evasion type defenses, yeah?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

You're free to like random chance. But it doesn't need to be in games, it doesn't need to be shoehorned in.

It's not 'shoehorned' in, it's the foundation upon which this games combat is designed.

Project_Hero wrote:

In a game like CoT, with random chance you can't make a character like Bullseye. Oh your power is you never miss, well too bad! I much prefer the setup of having something make you miss. You're a super hero, you don't miss, but others have powers too and they can make you miss.

As Radiac has proven, there are players who want their characters to have a chance to miss. Why is 'I never want to miss' more important than their character desires?

I too prefer a more skill/accuracy based combat system than CoT's seems to be. But removing the rng accuracy element of that system turns it into an entirely different game.
The one you describe with interrupts is very much twitch based combat. Something the developers have said from the beginning (as in the kickstarter) they were not going to do.

I am not sure what you are arguing because you have said a few times you don't have a problem with the system the devs have been promising.
If all you are trying to say is that it is possible to make a game without rng accuracy then I don't think anyone would argue with the fact it is possible. Early Tomb Raider games, the Arkham games, a lot of MOBA's and so forth all have never miss mechanics so of course it is possible to make enjoyable games that do not have the random chance to miss.
But those games are designed to have different challenges based on their combat system than CoT is designed for.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Missing isn't fun. The chance to miss doesn't make hitting more fun, with the exception of very low accuracy moves but even then you're more likely to get an "ugh, finally" out of most players than any kind of elation. Or a "what the hell" when the NPCs hit that same attack at a way higher chance, which always seems to happen.

You're free to like random chance. But it doesn't need to be in games, it doesn't need to be shoehorned in.

In a game like CoT, with random chance you can't make a character like Bullseye. Oh your power is you never miss, well too bad! I much prefer the setup of having something make you miss. You're a super hero, you don't miss, but others have powers too and they can make you miss.

Liking random chance so much you're probably going to be playing a lot of characters with evasion type defenses, yeah?

So what you're saying is instead of having a MMORPG be based on the randomness of "rolling dice" which every RPG has been based on now for the better part of 50 years (so it's not like that concept is actually being "shoehorned" into anything) and replace that with some kind of system where no one ever misses anything unless you go up against an enemy that specifically has a power that says "I have a power that can MAKE you miss me".

How on earth are you going to balance something like that within the confines of a game system like this? I'm not technically -against- your idea, I'm simply completely incredulous on how you would make something like that work effectively.

Basically the idea of a "never miss" power/concept does NOT play well within the confines of ANY game like this even if that's something that exists in the comic book genre.

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Oh, I'll admit that I don't

Oh, I'll admit that I don't like to miss when that actually happens in a game. We can agree that the event of missing a shot is not fun at the time when it happens. But I would rather have it in the game as a general rule in effect than not have it. Admittedly, this is just my own personal preference. YES, I want a game where "you have perfect accuracy all the time" is not an implied thing for all heroes, from the onset. I like it because of reasons I've already given, but also because it opens up the possibility that you might then design a power or buff or enhancement or something that maybe DOES give you a 100% change to hit, temporarily, or for just one attack, etc and that then would be a superpower worth writing home about and would make my hero feel special and different from heroes that don't have that power. If we all get 100% accuracy all the time, it kind of makes Bullseye obsolete, doesn't it? Everyone and their mother is Bullseye, in that game. Yawn. So the more powers are "no to hit roll required" the less variability and risk there is, and the less fun there is to be had in trying to manage the accuracy problem. Aim and Build Up were good powers, in CoX, I thought. I personally would prefer a game where those powers have a reason to exist than one in which they are a given for all, up front, with nothing spent to acquire it and no opportunity cost.

I'm not going to try to prove that it's correct and necessary that imperfect accuracy be there, I'm just saying I prefer it. I disagree with the opinion that accuracy concerns should be removed, ruled out from the get-go, or avoided entirely in the design just because it's a bummer when you miss. I prefer a game where you start with a lot of limitations and then have to make meaningful choices in terms of your build and get powerups, buffs, etc in order to avoid, overcome, or leverage the rules in various ways. I find that more fun and interesting than the much simpler 100% accuracy for all, all the time, no worries approach, because the "you need accuracy buffs" approach is much more rich with actual game elements that cause me to make choices.

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Frankly there's a part of me

Frankly there's a part of me that would become extremely bored with a game like this where I could never miss. It would be an inch away from "I could never fail" and what's the challenge at that point?

I think Project_Hero has a point where there are characters in comic books whose SOLE PURPOSE is the fact that they never miss. I get that. The problem is when you try to translate that concept to a RNG-based MMO. It's just not possible/practical. It's the same reason why a game like this will probably never let us play a character like Jeannie from I Dream of Jeannie - the idea of being able to "wish" anything you want is likely going to be OUTSIDE the scope of a MMORPG for the conceivable future.

Sometimes you just have to accept that a MMORPG will not allow you to do literally ANYTHING you want. Limits are limits.

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To me, it comes down to game

To me, it comes down to game design choices on a case by case basis. SOME powers could be "never miss" and the game won't be unplayable easy. My own CoH toon Radiac had a bunch of "never miss" stuff (the debuffs) and frankly that didn't detract from the game much, for me, at the time, but then of course I never got to experience "accurate" radiation powers either, so I can't truly tell you which I prefer from direct apples-to-apples experience. Some other stuff is less realistic when it is "accurate", like mental attacks. You're using your mind to attack someone's mind, how does that work and by what mechanical process can it ever miss? I'm not sure, but I'm in favor of "accurate mental attacks" if it makes the game more interestingly complex, deeper, and challenging. At the very least, then you have to decide how many Accuracy enhancements to slot into it at the opportunity cost of more damage, or something else, which is a meaningful choice and therefor more interesting (and therefore more fun to me) than auto-hit Mind Blast.

And as far as actual CoT goes, I expect most targets to have some way of making you miss, and thus I expect there to be low miss chances when attacking, say, minions and so forth, just like CoX had, if not the same percentages per se.

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The devs have already said

The devs have already said that CoT was specifically designed to have a baseline 100% hit chance on all powers, and debuffs/buffs could change that.

At least that is what I remember? My brain has turned to slush lately.

So basically missing can happen, but it will feel more unique and probably be related to specific enemies with relevant powers. If you get blinded or they are super dodgy ninja types you can miss. Otherwise you hit.

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TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

The devs have already said that CoT was specifically designed to have a baseline 100% hit chance on all powers, and debuffs/buffs could change that.

At least that is what I remember? My brain has turned to slush lately.

So basically missing can happen, but it will feel more unique and probably be related to specific enemies with relevant powers. If you get blinded or they are super dodgy ninja types you can miss. Otherwise you hit.

This is how CoT will work from my understanding as well.

You don't miss unless someone has an effect to make you miss, evasion, accuracy lowering etc.

With such a system to make a character like Bullseye you just slot them with as many accuracy increasing enhancements/augments as possible. Though I'm not sure how the interaction between evasion (or is it called avoidance?) and accuracy works mechanically.

Most of this reply isn't actually directed to you Janitor, just thought I'd quote you to agree with how we remember being told Cost will work.

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There are games where you don

There are games where you don't miss and its called hacking. I saw it in a fortnite video. Some guy no matter where he shot, the tip of the weapon glitched out in order to shoot at the target. It was unfair and that dude got reported. I understand what you are saying about not missing, because you are a hero, but I think the fact that a lot of shows are now displaying how heroes have weaknesses and make mistakes should give you the idea that just because they are better than regular humans, doesn't mean they never miss.

Hawkeye never misses but that is his mutant power. To accurately shoot arrows. If his power was just to make arrows appear out of thin air, then I am sure he would miss a lot of his attacks because then he would have to train just like any other person learning archery.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

The devs have already said that CoT was specifically designed to have a baseline 100% hit chance on all powers, and debuffs/buffs could change that.

At least that is what I remember? My brain has turned to slush lately.

So basically missing can happen, but it will feel more unique and probably be related to specific enemies with relevant powers. If you get blinded or they are super dodgy ninja types you can miss. Otherwise you hit.

This is how CoT will work from my understanding as well.

You don't miss unless someone has an effect to make you miss, evasion, accuracy lowering etc.

With such a system to make a character like Bullseye you just slot them with as many accuracy increasing enhancements/augments as possible. Though I'm not sure how the interaction between evasion (or is it called avoidance?) and accuracy works mechanically.

Most of this reply isn't actually directed to you Janitor, just thought I'd quote you to agree with how we remember being told Cost will work.

Right CoT could very well be made with a "baseline 100% hit chance on all powers" system.

The "trick" you guys will have to accept is that virtually EVERY NPC in the game will have debuffs/buffs that will affect that and bring that baseline DOWN from 100%. Not just the most powerful Arch Villain will have those "special" powers - EVERYTHING in the game will do that to at least -some- degree even if it amounts to very, very tiny percentages.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic why do you assume that

Lothic why do you assume that will be the case? Not every PC will have powers to do such a thing, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that all/most NPCs will also not have such powers. Otherwise we get into the case that the badguys never miss most heroes but the heroes can miss most badguys.

I don't see why your standard mooks would have any real defensive powers (till you get to higher levels anyway) possibly giving some defensive powers to higher ranked enemies would make sense, but they could just also have higher HP and some level of damage reduction rather than evasion. Which seeing as evasion is a rather spotty defense anyway it would make more sense to just make them tougher than more dodgey.

Also Wolfgang, Hawkeye isn't a mutant. He has no super powers, he's just really good.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Lothic why do you assume that will be the case? Not every PC will have powers to do such a thing, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that all/most NPCs will also not have such powers. Otherwise we get into the case that the badguys never miss most heroes but the heroes can miss most badguys.

I don't see why your standard mooks would have any real defensive powers (till you get to higher levels anyway) possibly giving some defensive powers to higher ranked enemies would make sense, but they could just also have higher HP and some level of damage reduction rather than evasion. Which seeing as evasion is a rather spotty defense anyway it would make more sense to just make them tougher than more dodgey.

Also Wolfgang, Hawkeye isn't a mutant. He has no super powers, he's just really good.

I assume that simply because I accept that it would be very, very silly if PCs were able to effectively "AUTO HIT" any enemy except some kind of god-like being. Sorry I just don't have this strange desire/need to have my characters auto-hit EVERYTHING.

Do you really not understand the RNG basis of practically every RPG that's EVER existed?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Lothic why do you assume that will be the case? Not every PC will have powers to do such a thing, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that all/most NPCs will also not have such powers. Otherwise we get into the case that the badguys never miss most heroes but the heroes can miss most badguys.

I don't see why your standard mooks would have any real defensive powers (till you get to higher levels anyway) possibly giving some defensive powers to higher ranked enemies would make sense, but they could just also have higher HP and some level of damage reduction rather than evasion. Which seeing as evasion is a rather spotty defense anyway it would make more sense to just make them tougher than more dodgey.

Also Wolfgang, Hawkeye isn't a mutant. He has no super powers, he's just really good.

Youre right. My bad. I know there was a mutant who had accuracy, just cant think of his name.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Lothic why do you assume that will be the case? Not every PC will have powers to do such a thing, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that all/most NPCs will also not have such powers. Otherwise we get into the case that the badguys never miss most heroes but the heroes can miss most badguys.

I don't see why your standard mooks would have any real defensive powers (till you get to higher levels anyway) possibly giving some defensive powers to higher ranked enemies would make sense, but they could just also have higher HP and some level of damage reduction rather than evasion. Which seeing as evasion is a rather spotty defense anyway it would make more sense to just make them tougher than more dodgey.

Also Wolfgang, Hawkeye isn't a mutant. He has no super powers, he's just really good.

I assume that simply because I accept that it would be very, very silly if PCs were able to effectively "AUTO HIT" any enemy except some kind of god-like being. Sorry I just don't have this strange desire/need to have my characters auto-hit EVERYTHING.

Do you really not understand the RNG basis of practically every RPG that's EVER existed?

I understand it just fine, but that doesn't mean that all RPGs need to have it. Nor does it mean that RNG needs to be used all the time.

There's times in 5e D&D where you just succeed. Where making a roll would just be pointless and a waste of time.

So I'm perfectly fine with auto hitting mooks, and even some higher up enemies, heck even some bosses. Like, how do you miss a giant monster? Mooks have the advantage of numbers, even if you hit all your attacks are you strong enough to take them all down before they take you down? Cause remember, unless you have evasion/avoidance/accuracy lowering powers they'll be hitting you 100% of the time too.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Lothic why do you assume that will be the case? Not every PC will have powers to do such a thing, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that all/most NPCs will also not have such powers. Otherwise we get into the case that the badguys never miss most heroes but the heroes can miss most badguys.

I don't see why your standard mooks would have any real defensive powers (till you get to higher levels anyway) possibly giving some defensive powers to higher ranked enemies would make sense, but they could just also have higher HP and some level of damage reduction rather than evasion. Which seeing as evasion is a rather spotty defense anyway it would make more sense to just make them tougher than more dodgey.

Also Wolfgang, Hawkeye isn't a mutant. He has no super powers, he's just really good.

Youre right. My bad. I know there was a mutant who had accuracy, just cant think of his name.

Bullseye?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Lothic why do you assume that will be the case? Not every PC will have powers to do such a thing, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that all/most NPCs will also not have such powers. Otherwise we get into the case that the badguys never miss most heroes but the heroes can miss most badguys.

I don't see why your standard mooks would have any real defensive powers (till you get to higher levels anyway) possibly giving some defensive powers to higher ranked enemies would make sense, but they could just also have higher HP and some level of damage reduction rather than evasion. Which seeing as evasion is a rather spotty defense anyway it would make more sense to just make them tougher than more dodgey.

Also Wolfgang, Hawkeye isn't a mutant. He has no super powers, he's just really good.

I assume that simply because I accept that it would be very, very silly if PCs were able to effectively "AUTO HIT" any enemy except some kind of god-like being. Sorry I just don't have this strange desire/need to have my characters auto-hit EVERYTHING.

Do you really not understand the RNG basis of practically every RPG that's EVER existed?

I understand it just fine, but that doesn't mean that all RPGs need to have it. Nor does it mean that RNG needs to be used all the time.

There's times in 5e D&D where you just succeed. Where making a roll would just be pointless and a waste of time.

So I'm perfectly fine with auto hitting mooks, and even some higher up enemies, heck even some bosses. Like, how do you miss a giant monster? Mooks have the advantage of numbers, even if you hit all your attacks are you strong enough to take them all down before they take you down? Cause remember, unless you have evasion/avoidance/accuracy lowering powers they'll be hitting you 100% of the time too.

OK just to be hyper clear I have NEVER said that if and NPC is so completely outclassed by the PC that they should still have like a 50/50 chance of being hit. Please. But by the same token I simply DO NOT ACCEPT the notion that PCs should EVER have 100% chance to hit anything, period.

So sure a level 50 PC should be able to have like a 99.9999999999% (as many 9's as you want) chance to hit a level one mook. But the system in question should NEVER let that number become 100%. Ever. It's just stupidly unrealistic for there to be a 100% chance to do ANYTHING at ANYTIME.

It's funny that you mention the aberration of 5e DnD just letting some things "happen" without a roll. There's a reason many people don't actually -play- 5e DnD...

Honestly if you can't live with a system that allows MOST combat situations even a 1% or 2% chance of missing and needs that chance to be -much- lower than that I don't see how you tolerate playing MOST games that exist today.

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I recall Steel missing in his

I recall Steel missing in his movie often.

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It may be good to keep a

It may be good to keep a couple of things in mind here.
The old game made it so that the first 19 levels of the game slotting Accuracy into a power was no where near as useful as damage or recharge.

Even without it, characters had a 90% to-hit buff at level 1 and it defeated until it was gone at level 20. Even in the teens, being able to hit over the 75% minimum was sufficient and you statistically gained more from damage or recharge (damage for attacks, recharge for other powers like debuffs).

And there were powers that always hit, toggle-based powers that affected an enemy, AoE location based powers that effected enemies (or at least their tick rate was so high it the capped chance to miss didn’t matter).

What we’ve done is said at the basic level of play a Power always hits. However there is a variance to the effect of the power based on the hit roll, up to and including critical hits.

Accuracy helps offset against any enemies with Evasion (and provides some other nifty bonuses we haven’t disclosed). Getting debuffed by either an Awareness attack or a straight Miss Rate debuff willl cause you to miss more. Accuracy does not affect Miss Rates.

Another intersting outcome of this is debuffing Accuracy doesn’t effect the hit roll if the target has no evasion. The hit roll fraction remains the same. It can matter greatly if the target has Evasion, because then the Accuracy bs Evasion fraction can be skewed greatly in the Evasion user’s favor.

Hence, if you look at Super Agility’s t5 Power, it comes with an Accuracy debuff.

What this means in terms of game play is that after level 20, it behooves is to begin making the game slightly more difficult. Not so much so that basic Aig users are always at a severe detriment, but enough that people may consider going into getting Augs with Ref Sockets to socket an Accuracy Ref if they desire.

Another interesting thing to note: people hating missing in the old game and slotted at least 1 accuracy enhancement into their powers so they had a maximum chance to hit an even level enemy.

Yet in first person shooters, Like CS Go or Black Ops, anyone over 20% accurate is considered above average. Different type of game, with a very different TTK rate, but you can see how the perspective changes on what is acceptable.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

It may be good to keep a couple of things in mind here.
The old game made it so that the first 19 levels of the game slotting Accuracy into a power was no where near as useful as damage or recharge.

Even without it, characters had a 90% to-hit buff at level 1 and it defeated until it was gone at level 20. Even in the teens, being able to hit over the 75% minimum was sufficient and you statistically gained more from damage or recharge (damage for attacks, recharge for other powers like debuffs).

And there were powers that always hit, toggle-based powers that affected an enemy, AoE location based powers that effected enemies (or at least their tick rate was so high it the capped chance to miss didn’t matter).

What we’ve done is said at the basic level of play a Power always hits. However there is a variance to the effect of the power based on the hit roll, up to and including critical hits.

Accuracy helps offset against any enemies with Evasion (and provides some other nifty bonuses we haven’t disclosed). Getting debuffed by either an Awareness attack or a straight Miss Rate debuff willl cause you to miss more. Accuracy does not affect Miss Rates.

Another intersting outcome of this is debuffing Accuracy doesn’t effect the hit roll if the target has no evasion. The hit roll fraction remains the same. It can matter greatly if the target has Evasion, because then the Accuracy bs Evasion fraction can be skewed greatly in the Evasion user’s favor.

Hence, if you look at Super Agility’s t5 Power, it comes with an Accuracy debuff.

This was great info! Thanks Tannim!

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

It may be good to keep a couple of things in mind here.
The old game made it so that the first 19 levels of the game slotting Accuracy into a power was no where near as useful as damage or recharge.

Even without it, characters had a 90% to-hit buff at level 1 and it defeated until it was gone at level 20. Even in the teens, being able to hit over the 75% minimum was sufficient and you statistically gained more from damage or recharge (damage for attacks, recharge for other powers like debuffs).

And there were powers that always hit, toggle-based powers that affected an enemy, AoE location based powers that effected enemies (or at least their tick rate was so high it the capped chance to miss didn’t matter).

What we’ve done is said at the basic level of play a Power always hits. However there is a variance to the effect of the power based on the hit roll, up to and including critical hits.

Accuracy helps offset against any enemies with Evasion (and provides some other nifty bonuses we haven’t disclosed). Getting debuffed by either an Awareness attack or a straight Miss Rate debuff willl cause you to miss more. Accuracy does not affect Miss Rates.

Another intersting outcome of this is debuffing Accuracy doesn’t effect the hit roll if the target has no evasion. The hit roll fraction remains the same. It can matter greatly if the target has Evasion, because then the Accuracy bs Evasion fraction can be skewed greatly in the Evasion user’s favor.

Hence, if you look at Super Agility’s t5 Power, it comes with an Accuracy debuff.

Thanks for the additional info Tannim.

I simply take comfort in the fact that the theory of quantum mechanics tells us that NOTHING should be assumed to have a 100% chance of happening. I have no problem with the idea of a game like CoT playing around with the percentages by providing buffs/debuffs where needed to maintain game balance. I just don't want this game to devolve into something where you can "always rely" on everything always hitting in ALL situations - that would simply make for a very boring game.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Missing isn't fun.

Neither is paying the bills.
Taking your logic to its inevitable conclusion in the economic realm (as opposed to combat mechanics), no one should ever have to pay for anything, because paying for stuff isn't "somebody's" idea of fun.

The simple fact of the matter is, the smaller the chance of missing, the more predictable the outcome of any encounter becomes. With too much predictability, due to a lack of (*cough*) RANDOM CHANCE (*cough*) being factored in, the experience of playing the game stops being fun. Why? Because it's too easy to "know the future" before it happens. The outcome is determined before the combat starts. At that point, your gaming experience is riding on rails.

Why bother playing chess if you know before the game starts how many moves it will take you to checkmate your opponent each and every time (and you're never wrong)?
That might be your idea of a fun game ... but it's not mine.

For a lot of us, there needs to be some factor of "you win some, you lose some" where the point and purpose of the game is to figure out how to bias things in your favor without turning the game into a 100 to 0 rout in perpetuity, just by showing up (or logging in, in this case).

To be honest, at this point I think I can confidently say that the game you'll have the most fun playing Project_Hero is ... PROGRESS QUEST. See here for more information on this modern marvel of gaming technology!


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Lothic why do you assume that will be the case? Not every PC will have powers to do such a thing, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that all/most NPCs will also not have such powers. Otherwise we get into the case that the badguys never miss most heroes but the heroes can miss most badguys.

I don't see why your standard mooks would have any real defensive powers (till you get to higher levels anyway) possibly giving some defensive powers to higher ranked enemies would make sense, but they could just also have higher HP and some level of damage reduction rather than evasion. Which seeing as evasion is a rather spotty defense anyway it would make more sense to just make them tougher than more dodgey.

Also Wolfgang, Hawkeye isn't a mutant. He has no super powers, he's just really good.

I assume that simply because I accept that it would be very, very silly if PCs were able to effectively "AUTO HIT" any enemy except some kind of god-like being. Sorry I just don't have this strange desire/need to have my characters auto-hit EVERYTHING.

Do you really not understand the RNG basis of practically every RPG that's EVER existed?

I understand it just fine, but that doesn't mean that all RPGs need to have it. Nor does it mean that RNG needs to be used all the time.

There's times in 5e D&D where you just succeed. Where making a roll would just be pointless and a waste of time.

So I'm perfectly fine with auto hitting mooks, and even some higher up enemies, heck even some bosses. Like, how do you miss a giant monster? Mooks have the advantage of numbers, even if you hit all your attacks are you strong enough to take them all down before they take you down? Cause remember, unless you have evasion/avoidance/accuracy lowering powers they'll be hitting you 100% of the time too.

OK just to be hyper clear I have NEVER said that if and NPC is so completely outclassed by the PC that they should still have like a 50/50 chance of being hit. Please. But by the same token I simply DO NOT ACCEPT the notion that PCs should EVER have 100% chance to hit anything, period.

So sure a level 50 PC should be able to have like a 99.9999999999% (as many 9's as you want) chance to hit a level one mook. But the system in question should NEVER let that number become 100%. Ever. It's just stupidly unrealistic for there to be a 100% chance to do ANYTHING at ANYTIME.

It's funny that you mention the aberration of 5e DnD just letting some things "happen" without a roll. There's a reason many people don't actually -play- 5e DnD...

Honestly if you can't live with a system that allows MOST combat situations even a 1% or 2% chance of missing and needs that chance to be -much- lower than that I don't see how you tolerate playing MOST games that exist today.

5e D&D is the best selling version of D&D in history. So to assume that people are just massively buying the books and then not playing it is... Weird.

And on the D&D front: Magic Missile. It's 100% accurate. Can be blocked by the shield spell or some magic items.

I don't know why you keep assuming I want any kind of system. I have never stated "I want the game to have this" or "I think the game should be like this." Again, all I'm saying is that such things aren't necessary. There are ways around them.

Hell I can give a bunch of game examples that don't have random miss chances, like fighting games you're within range you attack you hit, side scrolling beat 'em ups same deal, SCHMUPs (shoot em ups), side scrolling shooters, platformers, most hack and slash games, etc etc

I don't see why an RPG needs RNG based mechanics. Heck, some don't, least not for hitting, like Skyrim, or most modern action RPGs.

Attacks can still be dodged or blocked but you don't miss a shot that's on target.

Ally buffs always auto hit too, I don't know why you don't find it "stupidly unrealistic" that that happens. You just accept that buffs should always work and attacks shouldn't. Like, doesn't buffing folks at a range require accuracy to work? Don't you need to hit your target with a beneficial effect? But no, attacks never missing is "stupidly unrealistic" but buffs and healing always hitting, that's fine, right?

Designing a game around the fact that attacks will always hit is something you can do. It is possible. Even in RPGs. It changes the gameplay slightly but it's something that can be done.

Though I will freely admit it's great fun in a game with such things to pump up your evasion and see enemies failing to hit you.

Again. I don't mind miss chances in games. But games do not need to have them. This is the point I was making.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

5e D&D is the best selling version of D&D in history. So to assume that people are just massively buying the books and then not playing it is... Weird.

Eh... there's no accounting for taste. I bought a few 3e DnD books then never played it myself. *shrugs*

Project_Hero wrote:

And on the D&D front: Magic Missile. It's 100% accurate. Can be blocked by the shield spell or some magic items.

Sure, it's a spell that can only be used a limited number of times per day. See the difference between that and a CoT power that could be used constantly?

Project_Hero wrote:

Hell I can give a bunch of game examples that don't have random miss chances, like fighting games you're within range you attack you hit, side scrolling beat 'em ups same deal, SCHMUPs (shoot em ups), side scrolling shooters, platformers, most hack and slash games, etc etc

None of those examples are MMORPGs. Apples and Oranges my friend.

Project_Hero wrote:

I don't see why an RPG needs RNG based mechanics.

A RPG might not strictly -need- RNG mechanics. But since it's been working for the better part of 50 years why "fix" what isn't broken?

Project_Hero wrote:

Ally buffs always auto hit too, I don't know why you don't find it "stupidly unrealistic" that that happens. You just accept that buffs should always work and attacks shouldn't. Like, doesn't buffing folks at a range require accuracy to work? Don't you need to hit your target with a beneficial effect? But no, attacks never missing is "stupidly unrealistic" but buffs and healing always hitting, that's fine, right?

Where did you get this from? I think EVERYTHING should have a reasonably realistic chance to miss. I've never said anything should be able to "auto hit" regardless if it's an ally buff or an offensive attack power. The only thing I'm "100%" on is the fact that NOTHING should be able to happen 100% of the time.

Project_Hero wrote:

Designing a game around the fact that attacks will always hit is something you can do. It is possible. Even in RPGs. It changes the gameplay slightly but it's something that can be done.

I never said it was impossible. I just don't think it's a good idea all things considered.

Project_Hero wrote:

Again. I don't mind miss chances in games. But games do not need to have them. This is the point I was making.

And quite simply I think a RPG that would allow for anything to happen 100% of the time is fundamentally silly and ultimately would prove to be boring. My opinion on this point is just as valid as your notions on the matter. I'm willing to "agree to disagree" on this point if you are...

P.S. Thanks for giving me a heads up on 5e DnD and its willingness to allow "automatic" things to happen. We still happily play AD&D and you've given me another reason not to give WotC another penny of my money. ;)

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Designing a game around the fact that attacks will always hit is something you can do. It is possible. Even in RPGs. It changes the gameplay slightly but it's something that can be done.

I agree completely that a compelling and challenging game can be made without rng combat elements. But removing rng accuracy from a system designed to use it would not be a slightly changed gameplay. Everything related to combat would need to be re-evaluated. Foe design, combat actions, reward rates, affects, effects, resistances, defenses, character progress, difficulty, challenge design, hit points and damage capabilities are just a few of the things that would need to be re-imagined to account for removing one of the building blocks of a rng combat system.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What we’ve done is said at the basic level of play a Power always hits. However there is a variance to the effect of the power based on the hit roll, up to and including critical hits.

Does this mean that things like how much damage an attack does, how much healing a power does or how much of a buff/debuff an ability does will be randomized based on a 'to hit roll'?

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What we’ve done is said at the basic level of play a Power always hits. However there is a variance to the effect of the power based on the hit roll, up to and including critical hits.

Does this mean that things like how much damage an attack does, how much healing a power does or how much of a buff/debuff an ability does will be randomized based on a 'to hit roll'?

Not healing or buffs. Anything that requires a hit check.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

P.S. Thanks for giving me a heads up on 5e DnD and its willingness to allow "automatic" things to happen. We still happily play AD&D and you've given me another reason not to give WotC another penny of my money. ;)

In any edition of D&D they can allow things to automatically happen. In 3.5 there's the taking 10 or taking 20 rules. Coup de grace attacks (or do you need to hit an AC of 10 for those, I don't recall).

Like every form of D&D it's all DM dependant.

I'd suggest giving 5th a try if you haven't, it's a really good system.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

In any edition of D&D they can allow things to automatically happen. In 3.5 there's the taking 10 or taking 20 rules. Coup de grace attacks (or do you need to hit an AC of 10 for those, I don't recall).

Not really - they only started seriously adding the "things automatically happening" concepts directly into the rules in the d20 versions of DnD. TSR-based DnD (thankfully) didn't really do much of that.

Project_Hero wrote:

Like every form of D&D it's all DM dependant.

The DM of a game can allow for anything, even things to happen "automatically". But there's a huge difference between the DM making a decision about something and the game rules "automatically" allowing things to happen. A very huge difference.

Project_Hero wrote:

I'd suggest giving 5th a try if you haven't, it's a really good system.

Thanks but between AD&D and the dozens of other games systems we've tried over the years and continue to play today there's really no reason to latch onto the latest WotC cash-grab. Isn't 6e already being talked about - time to buy everything again. ;)

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As far as I know the only

As far as I know the only things talked about regarding a sixth edition is things like the devs saying "I'd like to do something like this if we make a new edition."

I don't think 5e has any real hard rules on when things automatically succeed, mostly as it's based on rulings over rules, but I think the DMG mentions somewhere about tasks that really shouldn't have any chance of failure. It's mostly a thing to speed up gameplay rather than sit through the players rolling checks on every square of a room to search it thoroughly.

Did a quick search and found that yes, there's a varient rule in the DMG for auto successes. But that's a varient rule, the DMG is chock full of those. Heck, multiclassing and feats are considered optional rules in 5th.

For me 5th edition is a definite improvement of the overall game of D&D, I started playing at 3.5, but have played some of the video games based on earlier editions. 5th is a huge improvement over 3.5 and far less complicated and gamey than 4th. After playing 5th I don't ever want to go back to 3.5, or pathfinder.

The quadratic wizard, linear fighter problem still exists, but it's much less so than in some other editions.

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In before Project_Hero

In before Project_Hero advocates in favor of "taking 10" to complete mission doors automatically without having to actually do their contents ... so as to speed up gameplay.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What we’ve done is said at the basic level of play a Power always hits. However there is a variance to the effect of the power based on the hit roll, up to and including critical hits.

Accuracy helps offset against any enemies with Evasion (and provides some other nifty bonuses we haven’t disclosed). Getting debuffed by either an Awareness attack or a straight Miss Rate debuff willl cause you to miss more. Accuracy does not affect Miss Rates.

If I'm reading this right, we're not dealing with a miss rate. It's more along the lines of overcoming "resistances". We'll "always hit" with a power but the effectiveness or damage output of a power could be reduced (possibly drastically) depending on how badly a power is "resisted"? There will always be some type of effect, but the effects or damage will no longer be efficient game play if we don't overcome those resistances.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

In before Project_Hero advocates in favor of "taking 10" to complete mission doors automatically without having to actually do their contents ... so as to speed up gameplay.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

In before Project_Hero advocates in favor of "taking 10" to complete mission doors automatically without having to actually do their contents ... so as to speed up gameplay.

Not quite sure what you mean by "complete mission doors"

But I'd be down with the option to exit mission when the mission is complete, instead of having to walk to the door. Quite a few games have similar options. Speeds up gameplay.

Edit: also you do realize that taking 10 and/or taking 20 can still fail if the check DC is too high? Like,if you took 10 with a skill bonus of 2 vs a DC of 15 would still fail. The taking 10 or 20 is just a thing DMs can use to help speed up gameplay. D&D takes up a lot of time and players having to roll as they search every place in the room especially if there's a large group of players. Also taking 10 or 20 can only be used when in non stressful/combat situations. And they're usually for checks that can be repeated anyway so for the search example taking 20 when your character has all the time in the world to do so is much better and far more streamlined than just waiting for them to roll high enough to be pretty confident that they didn't find anything.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

For me 5th edition is a definite improvement of the overall game of D&D, I started playing at 3.5, but have played some of the video games based on earlier editions. 5th is a huge improvement over 3.5 and far less complicated and gamey than 4th. After playing 5th I don't ever want to go back to 3.5, or pathfinder.

For your sake I'd probably agree that of all the WotC versions of DnD that 5e seems more reasonable than anything they initially tried to come up with before (3.0, 3.5, 4.0). There are simply those of us who don't like the d20 system in general and still favor (when we do play DnD) anything that is NOT WotC oriented. In a way I feel sad for you that your only serious experience with the game is (according to you) in the post-WotC world. Frankly computer games based on any version of DnD thus far don't really count either given their relative limitations.

Project_Hero wrote:

Edit: also you do realize that taking 10 and/or taking 20 can still fail if the check DC is too high? Like,if you took 10 with a skill bonus of 2 vs a DC of 15 would still fail. The taking 10 or 20 is just a thing DMs can use to help speed up gameplay. D&D takes up a lot of time and players having to roll as they search every place in the room especially if there's a large group of players. Also taking 10 or 20 can only be used when in non stressful/combat situations. And they're usually for checks that can be repeated anyway so for the search example taking 20 when your character has all the time in the world to do so is much better and far more streamlined than just waiting for them to roll high enough to be pretty confident that they didn't find anything.

Any good DM could always "streamline non-combat situations" without having the books tell them how to do those things. I get that these kinds of things can help people who like to follow "rules in books" to the letter but these ideas (i.e. taking 10 or 20) aren't completely revolutionary things that no one thought about before d20. The greater point of course is that many of these "streamlining" concepts really only work when a HUMAN referee can control/apply them appropriately in a table-top situation. These things have yet to be applied in a fair or reasonable way in a computerized MMORPG setting.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

For me 5th edition is a definite improvement of the overall game of D&D, I started playing at 3.5, but have played some of the video games based on earlier editions. 5th is a huge improvement over 3.5 and far less complicated and gamey than 4th. After playing 5th I don't ever want to go back to 3.5, or pathfinder.

For your sake I'd probably agree that of all the WotC versions of DnD that 5e seems more reasonable than anything they initially tried to come up with before (3.0, 3.5, 4.0). There are simply those of us who don't like the d20 system in general and still favor (when we do play DnD) anything that is NOT WotC oriented. In a way I feel sad for you that your only serious experience with the game is (according to you) in the post-WotC world. Frankly computer games based on any version of DnD thus far don't really count either given their relative limitations.

Project_Hero wrote:

Edit: also you do realize that taking 10 and/or taking 20 can still fail if the check DC is too high? Like,if you took 10 with a skill bonus of 2 vs a DC of 15 would still fail. The taking 10 or 20 is just a thing DMs can use to help speed up gameplay. D&D takes up a lot of time and players having to roll as they search every place in the room especially if there's a large group of players. Also taking 10 or 20 can only be used when in non stressful/combat situations. And they're usually for checks that can be repeated anyway so for the search example taking 20 when your character has all the time in the world to do so is much better and far more streamlined than just waiting for them to roll high enough to be pretty confident that they didn't find anything.

Any good DM could always "streamline non-combat situations" without having the books tell them how to do those things. I get that these kinds of things can help people who like to follow "rules in books" to the letter but these ideas (i.e. taking 10 or 20) aren't completely revolutionary things that no one thought about before d20. The greater point of course is that many of these "streamlining" concepts really only work when a HUMAN referee can control/apply them appropriately in a table-top situation. These things have yet to be applied in a fair or reasonable way in a computerized MMORPG setting.

I've played other tabletop games that aren't D&D things like GURPS, the various Star Wars systems, and BESM (big eyes small mouth, it's an anime TTRPG but it's got nothing in it that makes it expressly so other than the art, so we mainly use it as a general role play system).

And yep, I'm aware that a good DM will often find ways to speed things along and/or streamline things, but having official rules for such helps when a person plays with multiple different groups or something.

Some games do have certain streamlining things that work like a tabletop style of thing. Things where a skills cast time is faster outside of combat, for instance, or Skyrim's "you can't fast travel when enemies are nearby". In an MMO you could also have something like multiple crafting getting a speed bonus the more you make (up till a point) which would streamline the crafting process, but could also have downsides. That last one is just an example I thought of in like, a second so it's probably riddled with problems.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

P.S. Thanks for giving me a heads up on 5e DnD and its willingness to allow "automatic" things to happen. We still happily play AD&D and you've given me another reason not to give WotC another penny of my money. ;)

Well, AD&D is the superior system, but not for this reason. It has just as much of this sort of thing as 5e, but it's more subtle about it.

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dreamcatcher wrote:
dreamcatcher wrote:
Lothic wrote:

P.S. Thanks for giving me a heads up on 5e DnD and its willingness to allow "automatic" things to happen. We still happily play AD&D and you've given me another reason not to give WotC another penny of my money. ;)

Well, AD&D is the superior system, but not for this reason. It has just as much of this sort of thing as 5e, but it's more subtle about it.

A system like AD&D is "subtle" about it because it mostly allows the DM to control just how much happens "automatically" or not. The problem with enshrining that kind of stuff into the rules (like d20 and/or 5e manages to do) is that, well, it becomes enshrined in the rules and when the DM wants to do something differently he/she is suddenly having to "break the rules" to make things work the way they want.

Ironically the point is that the more you codify into the basic rules of a game system the more the DM has to "fight" those rules to suit their needs. It may be counter-intuitive to some people, but I've seen it in practice too many times not to accept the general validity of the notion.

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There’s an irony to

There’s an irony to entertainment. A song that’s all hook does poorly. You really need to include things that people don’t like or they ironically won’t like anything.

I’m not saying you intentionally make a game irritating, but if you take away negative things your end product will be very bland. The game needs a method of failing to make successes matter. That doesn’t mean you have to include a “miss” chance, but there must be something else to take its place. Call it resistance if you want. But there needs to be something that is a negative experience to make the positive experiences actually feel positive.

To put it another way... Sometimes players don’t really know what they want. Sometimes what they think they want is something they won’t enjoy. That’s the source of the proverb, “Be careful what you wish for.”

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

To put it another way... Sometimes players don’t really know what they want. Sometimes what they think they want is something they won’t enjoy. That’s the source of the proverb, “Be careful what you wish for.”

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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dreamcatcher wrote:
dreamcatcher wrote:
Lothic wrote:

P.S. Thanks for giving me a heads up on 5e DnD and its willingness to allow "automatic" things to happen. We still happily play AD&D and you've given me another reason not to give WotC another penny of my money. ;)

Well, AD&D is the superior system, but not for this reason. It has just as much of this sort of thing as 5e, but it's more subtle about it.

Whoa. I always thought the Storyteller system was better :)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

In any edition of D&D they can allow things to automatically happen. In 3.5 there's the taking 10 or taking 20 rules. Coup de grace attacks (or do you need to hit an AC of 10 for those, I don't recall).

Not really - they only started seriously adding the "things automatically happening" concepts directly into the rules in the d20 versions of DnD. TSR-based DnD (thankfully) didn't really do much of that.

Project_Hero wrote:

Like every form of D&D it's all DM dependant.

The DM of a game can allow for anything, even things to happen "automatically". But there's a huge difference between the DM making a decision about something and the game rules "automatically" allowing things to happen. A very huge difference.

Project_Hero wrote:

I'd suggest giving 5th a try if you haven't, it's a really good system.

Thanks but between AD&D and the dozens of other games systems we've tried over the years and continue to play today there's really no reason to latch onto the latest WotC cash-grab. Isn't 6e already being talked about - time to buy everything again. ;)

I follow WoTC relatively closely and I haven't heard anything about a 6th Edition. I don't think that will be anytime soon as they are still releasing 5E content. I think 5E is WoTC's stride IMO. It's easier to immerse yourself, as a player and DM, in the game because of the streamlined character management and rules. In the beginning, I thought this would detract from the feel of the game; for example 3.5E where you had to constantly update all your skills and modifiers because there were 123854237 inputs. But 5E, again IMO, is the best edition yet. After playing you don't feel like you've lost anything and actually I feel like because of the streamlined play that it is funner and easier to do what you want to do.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
dreamcatcher wrote:
Lothic wrote:

P.S. Thanks for giving me a heads up on 5e DnD and its willingness to allow "automatic" things to happen. We still happily play AD&D and you've given me another reason not to give WotC another penny of my money. ;)

Well, AD&D is the superior system, but not for this reason. It has just as much of this sort of thing as 5e, but it's more subtle about it.

A system like AD&D is "subtle" about it because it mostly allows the DM to control just how much happens "automatically" or not. The problem with enshrining that kind of stuff into the rules (like d20 and/or 5e manages to do) is that, well, it becomes enshrined in the rules and when the DM wants to do something differently he/she is suddenly having to "break the rules" to make things work the way they want.

Ironically the point is that the more you codify into the basic rules of a game system the more the DM has to "fight" those rules to suit their needs. It may be counter-intuitive to some people, but I've seen it in practice too many times not to accept the general validity of the notion.

No, its baked into the rules in AD&D. 100% Pick Pockets is 100%. High enough stats make you immune to certain conditions or spell effects; no roll, no rng. Being certain races provides similar benefits. Certain spells provide automatic success, with no defense, like Magic Missile, same as in 5e. I like how you ignored that in earlier dialogue. That's just the surface stuff. With the books on hand and some time I could put together a pretty long list.

If you have an opinion, cool, and you have a preference, also cool, but ignoring inconvenient aspects of the system in favour of pushing your argument is uncool.

As stated, I prefer 2e myself, but I also recognise it's downsides or similarities to systems I'm less fond of, because that's the reality.

How is any of this relevant to the topic of his thread anyway? If we must evangelise AD&D, can we do it on another thread please? Or better yet, another forum.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
dreamcatcher wrote:
Lothic wrote:

P.S. Thanks for giving me a heads up on 5e DnD and its willingness to allow "automatic" things to happen. We still happily play AD&D and you've given me another reason not to give WotC another penny of my money. ;)

Well, AD&D is the superior system, but not for this reason. It has just as much of this sort of thing as 5e, but it's more subtle about it.

Whoa. I always thought the Storyteller system was better :)

Lol. I should have been more exact to indicate I was speaking of only DnD systems, but I did say 'more' not 'most', so my meaning could clearly and safely be inferred, I think 😋

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dreamcatcher wrote:
dreamcatcher wrote:
Lothic wrote:

A system like AD&D is "subtle" about it because it mostly allows the DM to control just how much happens "automatically" or not. The problem with enshrining that kind of stuff into the rules (like d20 and/or 5e manages to do) is that, well, it becomes enshrined in the rules and when the DM wants to do something differently he/she is suddenly having to "break the rules" to make things work the way they want.

Ironically the point is that the more you codify into the basic rules of a game system the more the DM has to "fight" those rules to suit their needs. It may be counter-intuitive to some people, but I've seen it in practice too many times not to accept the general validity of the notion.

No, its baked into the rules in AD&D. 100% Pick Pockets is 100%. High enough stats make you immune to certain conditions or spell effects; no roll, no rng. Being certain races provides similar benefits. Certain spells provide automatic success, with no defense,

No DM worth their salt should ever let things "happen automatically" just because the rules said they ought to. There's always "something" that should/could modify chances based on circumstances. Sure if a 20th level thief is pickpocketing a 1st level guy then yeah maybe the DM would allow an auto-success for that. But if that same 20th level thief was trying to pickpocket a 40th level magic user there's no way the DM should let that be 100% regardless of what any book says.

The key point is that the DM allows/disallows these things, not a rule in a book.

dreamcatcher wrote:

like Magic Missile, same as in 5e. I like how you ignored that in earlier dialogue.

Actually I specifically pointed out how that was "balanced" because you could only cast a certain number of those per day. If a magic user could cast an unlimited number of magic missiles per day there would be absolutely no way they'd be allowed to be auto-hit. Again this point was in reference to the idea of having "auto-hit" powers in a game like CoT without considering any effect of related buffs/debuffs.

dreamcatcher wrote:

That's just the surface stuff. With the books on hand and some time I could put together a pretty long list.

And my point would be the same: No DM should ever let a player "rules lawyer" him/her into thinking that "auto-success" is a forgone certainty.

dreamcatcher wrote:

If you have an opinion, cool, and you have a preference, also cool, but ignoring inconvenient aspects of the system in favour of pushing your argument is uncool.

Again you've simply missed the -actual- point of my original argument: The DM ALWAYS has the final word regardless of how many "auto-success" features are printed in a book. I simply think d20/WotC takes the "subtle" idea of auto-success and tries to make it something that ought to happen as often as possible.

dreamcatcher wrote:

As stated, I prefer 2e myself, but I also recognise it's downsides or similarities to systems I'm less fond of, because that's the reality.

Again even if both systems "allow" for auto-successes one system unfortunately glorifies the concept as something that should be fundamentally happening as much as possible instead of being a "special case only" thing.

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I don't think 100% of

I don't think 100% of anything should ever be anything, to be honest. As a designer, you like to keep your options open, don't you?

Can SOME heals be auto-hit? Sure.
Should ALL heals be auto-hit? I don't think so, because it limits the overall options in your power design toolbox arbitrarily.

You might, at some point, want to design a power that does, like, MORE healing than your standard heal does, but you need to find a way to make it balanced, which would be a perfect reason to make a non-auto-hit heal.

In CoX, I believe all heal powers that targeted an ally to heal them were auto-hit. The Dark and Kinetic powers we discussed had accuracy as a drawback in order to balance the power set, I think. I never played Dark, but Kinetics was REALLY good, even without Transfusion, once you got all of the other powers. And Transfusion was REALLY good, when it hit, because it did more healing than other powers you might compare it to, but then sometimes it could miss, especially against really hard to hit bosses etc.

All I'm saying is, keep your design options officially open, don't try to live up to some directive like "all ____ should be ____" in all cases, without exception.

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