In no particular order:
1. Should there be such a thing as "uncategorized" damage, or should all damage have a "type"?. This has implications relating to resistance. Is it possible to resist uncategorized damage, or is all resistance going to be "resist this specific thing" and "resist that specific thing"? In DnD 3.5 "untyped" damage was impossible to resist, whereas sonic damage was merely VERY uncommon and EVEN MORE RARELY resisted. Cold and electric resist were commonplace and Fire and Acid were a little less so, but still present in considerable amounts. If damage types are going to be different in terms of their presence or absence among badguy groups, and the amount of resistance afforded each in different badguy groups and player power sets, this could be good to have or not. Or you could wire it the other way, and make "uncategorized" damage be something that ANY resistance applies to (so when hit by an uncategorized attack, you end up using the highest of your resistances against it).
2. Remember how in CoH the music in each zone was on continuous loop and was always the same? This made considerably little sense in Pocket D, which was supposed to be a dance club. It would be cool to have different songs, or even a set of LIVE DEEJAYs to run that. I'm sure things like bad language etc would have to be considered, not sure how that would work, but I personally would get a kick out of it. I'm sure the Namesake Radio crowd would be chomping at the bit to get that gig. Of course it might be just as easy to simply have some other program runing and turn the CoT musak down/off instead I guess.
3. Should natural recovery, regeneration, and recharge rates always be linear? In other words, what if your rate of, say, endo recovery were faster when you're really tired and slower when you're almost back to full? Or what if it were the opposite, slow when winded, fast when not? Just an idea, not sure where that would lead.
4. In CoH, we had the "conning" system, where each badguy would have their name appear in different colors depending on what level they were, what rank (minion, lt, boss, etc) and what level you were. This had the drawback that you eventually ran out of colors for different threat levels and in reality, not all "purple" threats were created equal. Is there a better system than this? I don't have on in mind but would be willing to listen to other ideas. That said I don't think the color code system was bad per se, and would still use it in CoT if that's what they do. One problem the old con system had was that you couldn't quickly and easily tell the difference between a purple minion (whom you might have a shot at defeating) and a purple boss from the same mob (who would probably wreck you).
5. In the CoH Incarnate system you got cool godlike powers from the Well of the Furies. I always kind of felt weird about having a primarily science-tech based hero who then had to participate in "magical" powers to do those Trials, etc. Maybe there aren't going to be any Incarnate-like things in CoT, because I think that system was a work-around in response to the fact that they couldn't extend the character levels beyond 50 for some reason, but if anything like this get's rolled out, that is if there are going to be unlockable powers like the Incarnate system had, I would prefer that they be done in such a way that can be justified using either tech or magic (player's choice). So like, for the Lore pets, you either get some kind of ""reinforcements teleporter" or "air-dropping SEAL team radio" or whatever versus the magical people who would opt for the "summoning stone" or "magic portal that spits out fire imps" or whatever. In both cases it would be nice to connect the new powers to some sort of prop, like a radio transceiver or necklace or something that makes it clear that this power you're using is not an ihnerent power from your base power sets, but rather some kind of add-on that you got from the trial or that you cashed in merits for or whatever.
6. I want a flying emote option that makes me look like THIS when I fly:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=fc9fkkMqCMhovM&tbnid=YWHaRxy1Id6HTM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.comicvine.com%2Fforums%2Fbattles-7%2Fred-tornado-vs-wonder-woman-1496950%2F&ei=FwnTUtmYOI3jsATvzIGwDA&bvm=bv.59026428,d.eW0&psig=AFQjCNEqDHkl4GauEAghfDyR49pdmSAK7g&ust=1389648533093073
EDIT: in "6" above I was referring to Red Tornado with the "tornado effects from the waist down" effect on the right. That said, the Wonder Woman "spilling out of the bra" look isn't bad either, just not something I'd want tied to the Flying power specifically.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Although an interesting suggestion, who would pay the licensing/performance fee's that are associated with this.
Yes, I know that some of the online stations skip paying the fee's, but for a company like this, I would assume that they would want to keep everything above board.
Damages should be Typed for the purposes of attacks and resistances. It is however "legitimate" for the Developers to [i]fail to assign a Damage Type[/i] to a select few sources of Damage ... such as Environmental due to Falling, for example. Thus, "untyped" Damage is acceptable, so long as it doesn't become a CRUTCH for the Developers as the easiest way to threaten Players (by negating the worth of their protection schemes).
For neighborhoods, the system worked fine. For social hangouts such as the Paragon Dance Party (way back in the day) and Pocket D later on, a larger playlist on shuffle would have been appropriate. Being able to go into a place like the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Tiki_Room]Tiki Room[/url], interact with a "DJ" NPC in there, and then be able to receive the Live Broadcast of a fan run radio station (ie. choose from menu of Missing Worlds Media sanctioned internet stations) and you'd have something decidedly awesome for relatively little investment on the part of Development.
Things get ... wacky ... in a hurry if they aren't. City of Heroes did something "cool" in that it basically specified a time to refill from zero to full, chopped that up into discrete percentages of full, and then ran the refills on a timer. So increasing [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Recovery]recovery[/url] or [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Health_Regeneration]regeneration[/url] rates didn't increase the amount recovered each time a percentage was added to your respective bars, because all they did was change [b][i]how OFTEN[/i][/b] those percentages did get added (with faster being "better" of course). The "speed" formula for determining how much faster you regained HP and Endurance was essentially the same one used to calculate time interval shortening used for Recharge Reduction ... 1 / (1 + X). To change the *amount* refueled with each "recharge tick" all that was needed was to increase the size of the HP or Endurance pool.
It was a simple system that worked reasonably well and was satisfying at doing the job, in part because the enhancement formula used effectively had a Diminishing Returns function built into its nature from the get go.
Ultimately, I found the color coded conning system to be useful [i]at first[/i] but that later on it pretty much outlived its usefulness as a visual indicator. In this respect, I think that World of Warcraft had a better idea in that they put a Level marker on the Target Portrait, showing you the absolute Level of your selected target, and if the target is "too high" over your Level, it just puts a skull and crossbones marker in for the Level reveal (nicely conveying the "it's your funeral" vibe). So on this point, I would rather follow the World of Warcraft "conning" model [i]as far as User Interface and [b]presentation[/b] goes[/i], since I found it to be a less intrusive yet also more informative system.
That said, one of the notions I'm mulling over right now is a sort of [b]Levels For Me, But Not For Thee[/b] kind of system, in which Foe NPCs [i]don't have "Levels" assigned to them[/i] per se ... even though Players *would* have Levels so as to be able to chart (and do the bookkeeping for) their progress. Instead, all Foe NPCs would be fought at [i]relative Levels[/i] that are in effect "relative" to the Player Characters ... thus effectively making everything work in a way akin to the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Giant_Monster#Vs._Your_Level]Giant Monster Code[/url] implemented in Issue 7 of City of Heroes. Combine that with [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Sidekick#Super-Sidekick_System]Super Sidekicking[/url] in Teams and you then have a way to effectively implement a "challenge factor" of choosing how far +/- to the Player Level(s) you want all of your opposition to be.
Those of us who played City of Heroes are well familiar with the notion of "outleveling" areas and needing to move on into new zones in order to fight Foe NPCs that would still offer experience (ala Positron's legendary posting ... "[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20120905030853/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showpost.php?p=83002&postcount=15]All that crap is grey to me, no XP.[/url]" ... which then went on to spawn more than one running in-joke in the game). This happened because all Foe NPCs were assigned ABSOLUTE Levels when they spawned ... rather than having RELATIVE Levels that got defined by the Players that they were in combat with.
In other words, with a "Relative Levels" system like what I'm thinking about, in City of Heroes it would have been possible for Level 50 Incarnates to go street sweeping in The Hollows and earn XP and rewards, without needing to Exemplar down to the early teen Levels in order to do so. Thus, zones [i]do not become obsolete[/i] and the spawns within a zone don't become cannon fodder "easy pickings" for Players who have outleveled the zone and moved on.
My preference would be to simply [b]not do Incarnates again[/b]. Seriously. The Incarnate System was just mainlining Power Inflation in a way that progressively trivialized content that at one time had previously been "hard" to do (Statesman Task Force, Lord Recluse Strike Force, Imperius Task Force, etc. etc. etc.). This was, in my not so humble opinion, a poor development.
Nobody should be cursed to look like Megan Fox with black hair [i]and no soul[/i].
Tornado guy? That could be done as an alternate animation for like ... Hover ... using a specific option for visual FX.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
HEY! Most of us *liked* pummeling massive amounts of random thugs into the ground! You're stepping on sacred ground, buddy! Nothing was so much of a stress reliever as going to Perez Park, stepping into a crowd of Hellions and sending those Satanic brats flying in every direction! I *loved* to watch those weaklings gang up on me by the droves and then watch them drop like a well synchronized dub-step troupe. No A-lister super hero would break so much as a sweat tackling a petty 20 common criminals. If what I think you are suggesting was implemented... I think I'd cry lol. I will be brought to grief and tears in the knowledge that I waited for 3 years to play CoH's spiritual successor only to be handed mediocre heroes that have as much trouble with the local gangs as trained cybernetic mercenaries.
PLEASE tell me you meant something other than what I got a mental image of.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
After reading Redlynne's comments here, I eventually found this "super" pic on the internet, and for that I am eternally grateful. Thanks, Red! :)
http://www.iblg.co/ckfinder/userfiles/10/images/megax-fox-superman.jpg
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
[img]http://cdn.styleforum.net/4/4a/350x220px-4ad90b08_Not-sure-if-serious2.jpeg[/img]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Out leveling content due to incarnate, was not a problem. You out leveled lower level content when you gained levels anyways.
The problem with Incarnate was in the stories. :/ It basically said "Oh hey! You're a cosmic level hero now!" :p
To be completely honest, I'm SO old that when I read "Megan Fox" I immediately went "Who's she again?" and looked her up by typing "Megan Fox" in a browser. Image results were obtained. The rest, as they say, is history.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
And it can be cleared!
Funny story:
My friend Bill and his now ex-girlfriend Jan go to a hockey game. Bill had said or done something to get Jan mad at him and so as they're navigating the stadium, she's giving him a piece of her mind. They get snacks and beer purchased, which he's carrying, and as they are climbing the narrow, high steps to their seats, Bill has the snacks/beer in a tray in one hand and the tickets in the other and, being kind of tall, he's trying to balance all of this while looking down at the floor to avoid falling and looking at the row numbers to finds their seats, etc. The whole time Jan is basically reading him the riot act about how much of a pig he is. As they get closer to their seats, Bill, who can barely walk and chew gum at the same time, is concentrating on not falling over, spilling the beer, and finding the seats, so he's basically ignoring Jan. Meanwhile there's a slutty looking, drunk, buxom woman fan in the seats somewhere near where they are and out of the corner of one ear Bill hears Jan say "....and I bet you think SHE'S attractive..." at which point he looks up, cranes his head around, sees the slutty looking fan and accidentally let's out the one-word exclamation "Damn!". The happy ending is that Bill's team won the hockey game, not that he got to see the end of it in person that night, and that he managed not to spill the beer when he got slapped.
But anyway, when I saw that pic of Megan Fox, I immediately went "Damn!" in my head, and promptly thought of that story.
And for the record, in my original post I had searched for pics of the Red Tornado and when I found one with the wind effects I was talking about I simply copied it's source URL from the search engine pics list, so I never even saw the website it had originally been posted on (or the Wonder Woman pic next to it) until I checked my own post after the fact to see if the link was working.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
(WARNING!! Long, stupid, self-indulgent opinion post.. feel free to ignore, especially if already covered elsewhere.)
Hello All,
I'm a new member to the forum, and I hadn't played CoH/CoV for a long time and was rather remiss about seeing the shutdown occur. While I loved CoH/CoV there were a lot of things I would have liked to see change - that, however, is irrelevant now. With the City of Titans project coming along I had some random thoughts on the project.
There are two other Superhero/Villain based MMO's out there we all know about, Champions Online and DC Universe Online - and I think it would be a mistake to not learn from those games' failings or shortcomings, along with their triumphs. So I've compiled a short list of things I've thought about the positives and negatives of each of those games to think about in the creation of the new one (obviously, these are merely musings and suggestions - not to be taken too seriously) Most of this stuff is cosmetic, and ultimately these should never make-or-break a game for players who want the Super Hero/Villain experience but hey, it can't hurt to put it out there and see what other people are saying.
Champions Online:
PROS: - Extensive Costume Options, Including Asymmetrical options (two different gloves, boots, accessories, shoulder pads, even eye colors/styles!)
- Purchasable Freeform Character creation (Pick and choose powers and abilities from any and all available powers as you wish)
- A multitude of Movement styles including things like elemental based movement, tunneling, swinging, teleportation, etc... to match your desired styles
- Creating your own custom Nemisis and Minions to battle!
- Being able to choose the color of your power-effects (this is a big one for some style-focused people)
- A true comic-book/cartoon feel - This helped give the illusion that each player is actually participating in a fantasy comic-style world and added some fun and whimsy to the game.
- Pop Culture References and Parodies - I know it's kind of silly, but I love it.
- The Lifetime Membership option - while expensive, $300 (USD) seems like a fair price for a ton of extras and bonus material that is otherwise purchasable at sometimes a hefty cost.
- The Addition of Vehicles for player use - being able to pilot a ship, or a hover-bike or whatever, that's great for characters created without some super-movement style!
- A great array of weapon styles for Heavy Melee, Light Melee (single or dual wield), Ranged (rifle, pistols, bow, tech gadgets, etc...)
- Using real-world History and Geography in the Champions universe (Millenium City is built on the ashes of what was once Detroit, using the Purple Gang as a villain group, that's actually kind of cool and I'm not just saying that because I live in Detroit.
- The Power Bar - while every game has this or something like it (the mana pool, rage meter, whatever else..) Depending on your stats, there is an equilibrium point that your specific character refills to naturally, though you can build more power than that. Unused power points will slowly fade back to that equilibrium point, and the higher certain stats are - the higher that point is on the scale.
- Power Building Attacks. Each and every character has a most basic attack (the first power you get) that builds the energy to use other powers. If I remember correctly, CoH had this, and it's an excellent thing to keep around (if it ain't broke don't fix it).
CONS: - The Comic-Book/Cartoon Feel. While it is enjoyable, sometimes it gets a little TOO cartoon-y and almost waters down the action feel of the game.
- A very limited FTP power selection
- Can't choose the color of powers if you are FTP
- Not enough Custom Nemesis Missions - I would love to battle my own stable of rogues just as much as the established ones in the game universe.
- The character creator, while extensive was missing certain things, one thing I'd love to see is equal options for Female and Male characters. If I can put it on a male, I should be able to put it also on a female, and not have major changes (except with nudity issues, unless there's going to be an adult server or whatever...)
- Can't color the vehicles to match your characters...
- You cannot be a villain and create your own Super Hero to battle!! Come on! I WANT TO DESTROY THE WORLD!! Let me have my dream!!
DCUO:
PROS: - Graphics. This game has the graphics, the textures, the art style - it's beautifully heroic and realistic all at the same time.
- Different Mentors to give different in-game experiences.
- Choosing to be either a hero or a villain without having to buy an entire new expansion (sorry CoH/CoV, I know you were the innovator of that...)
- Having a fighting style AND a power set was a very cool concept - being able to be a Shield wielding Pyrokinetic Hero/Villain, that's a neat idea. Using Tech gadgets but also having Hand-Blasts, swinging a giant hammer and having ice powers - you get the idea.
- An established universe with readily recognizable characters - obviously this is impossible to recreate as DC has been around for-freakin-ever, but it was a positive of the game nonetheless.
- The Alert missions, being able to go on solo missions with no interference from other players. I don't know about the rest of you, but I LOVE that. I am not a team player and I hate being forced into it.
- The idea of "The Vault" once a week (or three times a week for Premium and up accounts) you could go on a single mission in the Joker's fun house, bust up presents that would give you money and random drops - this could be costume pieces, retired costume pieces that were no longer available from vendors, weapons, items, and even special currencies used to buy high-level items.
- Cool exploratory achievements like finding certain Heroes and Villains around the two major locations of Metropolis and Gotham, finding the alley where Batman's parents were killed, finding Harley Quinn on a rooftop somewhere, running into Solomon Grundy or Killer Croc. Neat stuff.
- Gaining skill and power-points after capping out your level. Even after attaining 30th level (the highest character level in the game) you could still accrue skill points by completing achievements or doing heroic/villainous feats. These skill points you could put into learning a new combat style (Say your character wields Dual Pistols and now you want them to swing a sword or carry a staff - you can! These weapon styles also come with abilities that can increase your stats like Critical Damage, Health, Strength, Defense, Regeneration, etc...)
- PVP Legends Alerts. I mean, come on, you get to play as established heroes and villains against other players? That's pretty darn cool.
- The Cut-Scene movies after defeating a hero or foiling a villain, it was a very nice touch.
- The Iconic Powers. These are certain powers based off of existing heroes and villains that you can purchase with Power Points as you level up, things like Bane's Venom enhancement, Black Canary's sonic scream, Superman's Laser Eye-Beams, A giant lead-filled Boxing Glove punch like Harley and the Joker, Super Strength... etc...
CONS: - No freeform capability with power choices, if you're a gadget user, that's it - no telekinesis for you!!
- EXTREMELY limited costume options when starting out, while this is merely cosmetic, and arguments can be made for it - it was a pain in the pa-toot.
- A Three Choice Color Palette for the entire costume is too limiting. While it does help create a uniformity to a character's outfit - what if the character doesn't want a uniform look?
- No choice in color of powers at all
- Three choices in hero/villain type - you're either a mutant, magically, or a tech based character - that's it.
- No personalized Nemesis.
- Established Universe problems, there's really no new stories to learn, no new backgrounds or characters to fall in love with or learn to hate/fear...
- Only three types of Super-Movement, that's way too limiting for my taste...
- It's always Night time in Gotham, and always Day time in Metropolis. That's just... weird. And why is it always just cloudy enough for the Bat-Signal to work perfectly?!
- Recent Updates have made it difficult to purchase a decent PVE weapon, and almost all the vendors now sell only PVP weapons - which of course only work on their respective instances (this includes the Alerts, so you always need to have a PVE weapon and a PVP weapon handy for whatever fighting style(s) you have.
- Very limited power selections - the basics are covered and that's about it (with obvious DC specific powers, the Light Rings)
- No Brute Strength powers like the Supersonic Hand Clap, the Seismic Stomp/Punch, Ripping a giant chunk of earth out and chucking it at a foe (though you can just pick up nearby vehicles, debris, random objects and throw those... pretty much the same thing there...)
Obviously there are more pros and cons to each game but many of them overlap or are simply problems of game mechanics and many of them are necessary evils for a more complete gaming experience, things like finding parts and items and combining them to make gear or buff/debuffs, or enhancements for characters... loading times, pay to win problems, clipping issues, bugs, etc...
As I said, these obviously aren't NEEDS or MUST HAVES to enjoy a game, but having them out there might inspire some changes or give developers something to look into changing or adding to the game - or it might even spawn a whole new fresh idea to work with. Don't take my word for it though, I'm just an overly excited fan of Super Hero/Villain based MMO's where I can create my own characters.
good stuff, but don't think COX had the power builder power thing. Certain sets had, had powers that replenished the energy power bar, like lightning had one, think dark had one, and one of those controller mind power had one cant think of the name of the set off the top at this moment. The rest basically either had to build so hopefully endurance becomes less of issue or sit around and wait or rest. But hopefully CoT adds something like that though, an energy builder power.
Several CoH powersets had an endurance-siphon power, but those powersets were Also designed to use more endurance in the first place. In general, CoH powers were designed to be relatively stable in Endurance-use and one could compensate for higher usage by taking Stamina and popping blue pills.
Conversely, Champions assumes a relatively empty blue-bar and any power use puts a heavy burden on your energy, requiring an 'energy builder' to compensate. One must continue to attack in order to develop the energy to do... anything. This encourages Action rather than Rest.
This Action vs Rest energy balance can have dramatic effects on how the game is played.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Having no endurance builder power was never a problem for me. I rather enjoyed playing a game that had no autoattack whatsoever. Managing my powers and Endurance required some thought, but I kind of liked that.
Without an energy builder, it certainly would require more tactical thought put into the game, but as stated - the Energy Builder attacks does encourage more action and less rest or sitting on the back-burner waiting for enough energy to continue attacking (without the need to boosts or potions/drinks/stim-packs/whatever you want to call them).
Also, the freeform power set build is something I cannot sing the praises of enough - you may not end up with the most powerful character on the map, but they will be of YOUR design and desires, not some preset you get stuck with whether you like it or not...
(My main Hero/Villain character is a Dual Weilder, swinging two big axes with a penchant for using explosives, even in the most unnecessary of times - hence the name "RIOT" or "Agent RIOT" - and lets face it, most games aren't going to have that kind of option to use Tech Gadgets/Munitions like grenades, mines, sticky bombs, mini-rockets, etc... along with dual melee weapons...)
Indeed on the freeform.
I have a police based toon that use non-lethal force to subdue criminals, baton/living taser offensives. Couldn't be done in COX as far as that combination.
Or one that can use a gun but also know a little hand to hand combat in tight spots.
I think there are smarter ways to show character individuality than a freeform system. All freeform has done is ruin combat systems. I wan.t smart game systems more than I want the ability to pick from any power in the game . I'm fine with choosing playstyle, animations, and FX. Please don't ruin combat systems with freeform choice
Crowd Control Enthusiast
There are easy enough ways to keep it fair for PvP without screwing it up.
If you mean PvE, that got messed up with ATs, or else you wouldn't always hear complaints in any game about how such and such AT is more powerful.
I definitely agree that freeform choices could unbalance a game if wisely chosen by the player - but I still feel it's something that should be looked into being included in the game. I imagine there are ways to scale it properly so that no character is too overpowered in either PVE or PVP instances. I certainly do like the idea of being able to choose animations and FX styles for our characters - that's an excellent idea!
I hope CoT doesn't have PvP. I've played so many games with PvP and I've always hated it. And no it's not because I was some n00b that always got camped. I played a MM with TP Foe into my Bubbled Bots, Energy Melee/Ninjitsu Stalker that kited Assassin Strike, etc. I've found that the PvE always suffers because of whiners in PvP that want the game "balanced". IF CoT does decide to have PvP in it, then I hope they make it a completely different instance than the PvE side of the game. That way they can leave alone the PvE aspect and instead just focus on making the PvP aspect "balanced".
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I concur with that statement. PVP players do all-too-often whine and complain about PVP being "unbalanced" and in trying to balance the PVP they mess up the PVE somethin' fierce!
The fundamental problem with having a "freeform" powers system in any MMO (not just a superhero one) is that there's no human GM there to "regulate" it in a sensible manner. CoH actually learned this lesson early on - the Devs at the time initially attempted to have a very "freeform" system back during the Alpha testing phase but the game was so unbalanced and unworkable that way that they were forced to reorganize it with a class-based system (the ATs) before it finally launched in 2004.
When you play traditional pen-n-paper games like Champions the players can use its powers systems to dream up all sorts of powers as limitless as your imagination. But to make sure it doesn't get out of hand the human GM is making on-the-spot dynamic decisions about the game rules to keep what you're doing in check and make sure you face suitable limitations so that things can't get out of hand.
Until they can figure out how to make a computerized MMO be able to dynamically react (via artificial intelligence?) to players the same way a human GM can then they are always going to have to be structured in some way to make sure players can't become overpowered/unbalanaced. That "structure" comes in the form of classes/ATs that will necessarily restrict the chaotic freedom implied by "freeform" systems.
The trick then becomes creating MMOs that perserve as much freedom for players as possible without becoming so free that the system breaks down. That's where I think games like CoH (and hopefully to a greater extent CoT) work well in allowing a good balance between power choices versus broken gameplay. Having things like choice over animations and FX styles also help because those things give a sense of freedom without affecting the underlybing mechanics of the game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
*le sigh* I would love to have a good group of people to play a Superhero RPG with with Pencil and Paper sitting around a table drinking coffee/tea and eating snacks... ugh - I love my D&D (3.5) and Pathfinder, but I've never had the chance to do a Super Hero campaign.
Anyway, I think that's why CO needs to be looked at more closely to see how the Freeform system works, what they got right and where they've slacked off or gone completely wrong.
As an avid CO player, I know this much about their Freeform system:
- Each player can only have ONE Energy Builder attack
- Most powers, especially the ones further up the Leveling tree have prerequisites like "To select this power you must have # powers from the ________ set or # non-energy building powers"
- Some powers have a certain level requirement before a player can select it
- Each player can only have ONE "Ultimate Attack" (so far all of the Ultimate Attacks I've seen... enh, non really fit my character)
- Certain powers are off-limits because they are premium powers that must be purchased.
Each character (like most MMO's) has a set of stats and gains armors or upgrades or boosts that wax and wane stats according to the character's needs/wants - so they might have high physical scores and low mental scores, or average scores, but it is nigh-impossible to have ALL superior stat scores without actually earning them.
I think people get the wrong idea when "balance" is talked about - because many characters that others believe are over-powered have played longer and searched and spent months grinding for just the right equipment, or the right amount of in-game currency to buy the best of the best equipment, or actually paid out of their own (real life) pockets in order to purchase something not everyone can have. These people deserve those bonuses because they have earned them in one way or another. However, that's a little off-track here.
In PVE I'm not worried too much about "balance" between characters, because more often than not when a character has more powerful equipment than I do, it's because they've earned it (whether in-game, or by paying real money for it). In a PVP situation, that's another story.
PVP, in my opinion, should be scaled not by Level necessarily, but by ability. Group players by DPS, Stat scores and Equipment Modifiers - characters that would give each other a decent fight, that's fair to me. But a level 10 fighting a level 30 and it being anywhere near a "fair-fight" is ridiculous and is unacceptable.
I think I went somewhere off-center with this... not sure. Too much coffee and it's too early in the morning.
What's clever about CO's "freeform" system is that it really isn't a PURE freeform system despite its name. Yes it does allow a fairly large degree of latitute when it comes to power selections. But it ultimately conforms to its own structured "class" as far as the rules that are in place to prevent excesses in both under and over poweredness.
It'll be interesting to see if CoT attempts it's own version of a "freeform class" the way CO did. To be honest if CoT manages a huge amount of freedom in other areas (like power FX customization) it might not even really need to attempt pure "freeform" in the sense most people think of it. If the powersets and classes are kept generic enough people will be able to make their powers "do" or "look" pretty much how they want.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
On the issue of free-form powers, if you have to put in rules where one power is a pre-requisite for another, or you can't take THIS if you already took THAT, minimum level requirements, etc., that isn't really free-form either, it's just a different, more complicated, more difficult to manage set of rules for your "form" anyway. And frankly I like it when different builds of different sets play differently and some are better than others, etc. It gives everything some character. I compare this to playing Mechwarrior 4 with the difficulty turned up. One thing they did was give you less availability of the mechs/guns you really wanted and less money so you had to figure out how to get more out of less efficient equipment. I found that intellectually stimulating in a PVE game. I feel that the more truly free-form it is, the more people will just make the most efficient combat toon, to hell with the flavor or role play aspect. People did this in CoH when it first came out. You'd hear people spouting off about how SuperJump was the only vertical travel power even remotely worthy of taking because it had the best pre-reqs for combat purposes. I don't want a game where everyone makes Superman with kryptonite-proof armor, Thor's hammer, Sinestro's power ring and the ability to read minds. I'd rather have to choose between those things than be able to have all of them, believe it or not. Allowing a free-form style is too much of an "Easy Button (TM)" for those who would use it as such. While it is true that creativity in making a toon for RPG purposes will be somewhat more limited with a system of ATs, the AT system REQUIRES more creativity in min/maxing, which people still do anyway. You'd be surprised how easily one would "decide" to change their toon's character concept just to be able to beat that one boss in the one mission that you can't seem to beat, etc.
On the subject of PVP, I think it's true to say that in any design that really tries to do both PVP and PVE well, you end up making two different games. To that end I'd make a PVP-mode for the PVPers who want it, where you start at level 50, can have as many enhancements as you want of any kind, and can pretty much make any toon you like BUT you can't PVE with it at all and you don't get to keep the enhancements, they're wired in such a way that they aren't owned by you and you can't trade them. This is essentially a stripped down, but fair, mode of play where the game ends up being a FPS with superheroes and villains instead of just people with guns. "Fair PVP" has certain requirements and "fun PVE" has other ones, and to some extent those requirements are mutually exclusive.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
While it's understandable that it's annoying to watch players just make the most combat efficient characters for PVE, it's their character - let them build whatever they want. Those who are more keen on making a rich, rounded character will continue to do so - regardless of what other players do.
In short, being mad that players will create Munchkin characters in a freeform system is like getting mad at someone for drinking milk because you're lactose intolerant.
Sure, they might make Superman with Kryptonite-Proof Armor, Thor's Hammer, Sinestro's Ring and Telepathy - but who cares? It isn't your character, they aren't your problem in the PVE world - they're basically just an eyesore.
In the PVP world, that's EXACTLY what a character is meant to be in the first place - combat efficient - what's the point of being the PVP world if your character isn't built for PVP? I mean, I'm open to different points of view on the subject - but I just can't see why a "freeform" (yes, it isn't a true freeform because there is still an effort to keep some kind of balance by the rules of the game) is a downside as an option - if anything it would drive players to put more revenue into the hands of the company that produced the game for access to Freeform characters!
But either way, I don't mean to be rude or condescending, I promise I'm just trying to understand.
Alright, but let's also acknowledge some of the strengths of a more rigid, AT system. It might not be as much fun for the creator, but when someone joins my PUG and I see that they're a... Fire Tanker, for instance, then I have a fairly good idea of what I can expect from them. And if they're enjoying an atypical build that skips the self-heal and endurance-siphon powers... well, I'll know to pay close attention and see if they're effective, anyway. And maybe I'll mock them a bit, if they faceplant often.
In the completely freeform world that some people advocate, there would be no way to predict what a new character could do.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Oooohhhhhh, I think I get it (possibly)
I promote the idea of a purchasable Freeform Character Slot, but definitely not a completely freeform world - I agree that it would make things too unpredictable and hard for people to join in groups, do team missions, etc... because no one would know what to expect (as you said).
As far as simply joining a group or applying to team up with someone else, you could always institute (based on what abilities a Team Leader/Creator has - I'm assuming an option to boot a player from the group here) a trial period where you may do a mission or two with the person, ask them what their powers are (if the characters aren't given a Character Sheet type dealio) to get to know their capabilities better. If it works out, hooray, if not - give 'em the almighty boot in the posterior!
I don't know if I agree that it's PvPers whining that kills PvE builds. Plenty of PvEers whine when they think their AT/Build/Class isn't equal to the best one.
Personally, in PVE, I like the intellectual process of trying to get the most out of what is considered by some to be a sub-par set of starting options (I play green spells in Magic: the Gathering, for example). I enjoy that. I want there to be "like teh uber" power comboes that people are aware of so I can avoid them and try to surprise you with something everyone says is "crappy" but I have found a way to make it work. This is part of the fun of designing a character, for me. I also like that my options in my sets are all on-theme to begin with and don't have to be mangled or explained away in the flavor of the character's backstory.
That said, I can see where people will want their choice of background flavor for a toon not to totally nerf said toon in combat. But I mean really, in PVE, that comes down to the nitty gritty details of the powers individually more than anything else. Even in a freeform system, you'd probably still get the possibility for that problem to exist, in the event that all of the powers you think are "on flavor" for your character concept end up being less than stellar in combat. Freeform doesn't prevent that, it just makes more OTHER, off-flavor options available. As a developer, whether freeform or AT based, you can always design the powers themselves better or worse depending on how they play in the game (like how CoX finally increased the damage that the gravity troller set powers do in like year 8) if there needs to be better parity.
With freeform, you end up making a lot of small individual rules like "you can't take this power AND this other one because that combo is just too good, so we banned it" whereas on an AT-based system the ATs and power sets are designed with those problems in mind and are pre-avoided from the start, (one hopes). And even then some stuff ends up being germane enough that you can offer it to everyone in the form of ancillary sets, pools, etc.
I guess it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to just make it freeform from the start, then continuously tweak numbers and ban broken comboes as time goes on. This is how Wizards of the Coast treats Magic. That said, the people who paid $2000 for a Japanese Foil "Jace, the Mind Sculptor" card (ONE CARD!) don't like it when that card get's banned later. So you have issues analogous to that to have to contend with then.
That said I really would enjoy an AT-based system like CoH had. Like being able to pick a "role" and the team and then build to it. Some people seem to focus on "soloist" as their role and that's fine too, but it's not the only one.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I've seen more harm from PvP'ers whining about unbalanced powers than I have PvE'ers. And usually in trying to appease the PvP'ers by making all power sets equally balanced it screws up the fun and game play of the PvE'ers. Take a look at Energy Melee from CoH. That was super fun to play in PvE, but then the PvP'ers decided that a couple of the powers were completely unfair and it got nerfed so much I ended up deleting all my Energy Melee characters because they were no longer fun to play. It was never an issue until everybody started complaining about it in PvP.
I'm not saying that there aren't people in PvE who whine as well, I'm just saying that from my experience most of that comes from PvP'ers.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I think there's a subtle difference between the kind of unbalance you can have with an unregulated freeform system and the typical desire of most players to want to "min/max" their characters as much as possible.
If the Devs allowed a pure, unrestricted version of freeform then clever players could max out their characters so much that it would break all the Devs' attempts to keep the game challenging and balanced (from either a PvE or PvP perspective). It could also allow for the unintended possiblitly for newer players to create completely gimped characters which could lead to frustration and people giving up on the game due to lack of understanding.
So again the compromise goal should be to provide a "sandbox" powers system which will allow players a certain degree of freedom to have fun min/maxing their characters, but only up to a certain point. As long the game can provide as much powers latitude as possible without losing control of the extreme over/under powered scenarios then we would have something fun to play.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I was right there with you when that Energy Melee nerf happened :/ They couldn't even lower the damage of the attack, they had to make it a longer animating attack, that imo, now looked ugly. They couldn't even give it a nice looking animation. :(
Agreed, and I'm pretty sure that's what Champions Online offers more or less since there are restrictions to the freeform builds - though I imagine it wouldn't be impossible for the CoT team to improve on the system... well, perhaps not "improve" but to balance it out a smidge better.
I have already stated my preference but I'll repeat it while the conversation is going on:
I do not want freeform mechanics. I do want freeform animations/fx. I do want damage and resistance type choices
I think the WAY a build works should be rather uniform like an "Archetype" but the way a build LOOKS and FEELS to be customized. This is along with a individual Characteristics or Stats system and enhancements to some the build's powers. I think we should choose up to three damage types per build, with synergy benefits for using only one type of damage as well the innate benefit of diversifying your character's damage types. IF the damage type is chosen then also damage type resistances would need to be chosen by the player (I say give every character 5 slots and 3 slots is what it takes to get close to "immunity" of one of the five damage type
This does put pressure on the dev team to create builds that represent many different desired play-styles for each role, but by having more limited options the build standard can be adjusted as needed without affecting the combat mechanics of ALL the possible builds. If the Ranged Spike Damage is under-performing they can give THAT build better performance without affecting other builds via ripple/butterfly effect.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I think, and this hinges solely on whether or not I understand your meaning, this would also be an acceptable alternative to a freeform system, and depending on whether or not they have a decent melee/ranged balance character and I can still get Regeneration as a Support power - I'm totally down with it. Plus I think it would definitely be a creative twist on what's already out there!