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Minion Flanking Idea

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Renkage
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Minion Flanking Idea

Just as the subject says, I think this would be an interesting mechanic to really make you feel like a leader. Effectively, it would work like a backstab of sorts, but for your minions. But only if the flanked enemy is being actively targeted by the two characters that are flanking (this includes you and your minions). On top of that, there could a bit of variation on the bonuses given while flanking depending on how flanked the enemy is. For example, if one minion is in front of the enemy, while another is to the side of the enemy, that would be a minor flank, giving small bonuses. While one minion being directly in front of the enemy, while another minion is directly behind the enemy, this would be the maximum bonus. This would make planning and micro managing your minions to separate the good from the great.

Some types of minions could even specialize in flanking. While others would be difficult to flank, but more of a payoff if they do. Maybe even have certain abilities have additional effects if it is used against a flanked enemy.

I bring up this mechanic because in CoX I would always set up my minions while my group would prepare. But in the end, the set up amounted to nothing. No matter what minor advantages I got from the setup, it was over all not worth the effort.

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Lothic
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This is an interesting idea

This is an interesting idea but it hinges on whether or not MOBs in this game will be able to recognize the facing of an attack. In other words I'm not sure a MOB will be able to tell from which direction they are being hit so the idea of "flanking" or "backstabbing" might not have any meaning in CoT.

Maybe they can figure out a way to apply a bonus to group of attackers that manage to "overwhelm" a defender just based on numbers of attackers against that single defender. But that would be based on simple numbers of attackers versus the defender and nothing to do with their physical positions related to each other.

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Renkage
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

This is an interesting idea but it hinges on whether or not MOBs in this game will be able to recognize the facing of an attack. In other words I'm not sure a MOB will be able to tell from which direction they are being hit so the idea of "flanking" or "backstabbing" might not have any meaning in CoT.

Maybe they can figure out a way to apply a bonus to group of attackers that manage to "overwhelm" a defender just based on numbers of attackers against that single defender. But that would be based on simple numbers of attackers versus the defender and nothing to do with their physical positions related to each other.

Several MMOs have backstab mechanics, so programing the facing of an attack doesn't SEEM impossible.

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Huckleberry
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If attacking from behind

If attacking from behind becomes a thing that can be done for increased damage, even if only proc'ing when the target is also being attacked upon other facings, then it should be a thing versus player characters as well. This means attracting a swarm of mobs could be even more deadly as you get surrounded. It opens up a whole new set of options for mob AI as well.

Having said that, there have been other discussions relating to facing, but they were very long ago (pre-2014).

I'm pretty sure MWM has stated that doing so relies too much on twitch responses of the players, but I can't seem to find anything from them on it in these forums. While some players may argue about what "too much" twitch is, it can be said with confidence that any facing-contingent damage bonus is more twitch-reliant than what the devs intend.

But I can think of a few ways we can incorporate mechanics that make it seem as if flanking and facing are important:
One way to incorporate it without affecting gameplay too heavily is to make this bonus damage only available in certain situations or for only certain abilities. A stealther's backstab ability would be a good example of a specific ability that would capitalize on facing. (Keep in mind that there will be no stealth class in CoT, only stealth masteries and skill trees, how we would implement a 'backstab' would be dependent upon what functionality comes with stealth). So perhaps there is some stealth mastery that provides a bonus to any attack performed from stealth. And since PERCEPTION will most likely be a directional thing, the only way a player can attack from stealth will be from behind, so in effect it is a backstab ability, even if it doesn't have to be an attack from behind.
Another example of conditional application that would appear to be facing-contingent but wouldn't actually be facing-contingent would be if more than two melee attackers are within melee range and targeting the same target, all melee attacks enjoy a damage increase against that target. This would give multiple attackers a "flanking" bonus without actually having to compute target facing.

{edit] In case you're wondering why I seem certain that target facing as a requirement for attack damage bonuses will be problematic and too "twitchy," one of the main reasons is because of instantaneous facing changes and the fact that the game will force NPCs and players alike to face their targets when activating an ability.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Lothic
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Renkage wrote:
Renkage wrote:

Several MMOs have backstab mechanics, so programing the facing of an attack doesn't SEEM impossible.

Well to be clear I didn't say it would be impossible. In fact I would assume most modern FPS games also can/do account for it.

But the thing that might prevent a game like CoT from handling it is just the overwhelming huge numbers of MOBs running around. The extra processing it would take to calculate all the possible facings between each MOB relative to each other would probably be problematic at best or at worst require the minimum computer/GPU requirements to be higher than MWM would want.

Again it's something that likely "could" be implemented but I suspect the pros and cons are going to be weighed against it. Let's hope MWM can make basic combat work before we worry about whether we can backstab or not.

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I like the idea of swarming

I like the idea of swarming an enemy with zombies or robots or bees, but in an MMO like CoT there's so much infrastructure to get in place. As mentioned by Lothic and Huck, the enemy or mob has to track where damage comes from, if there's an enemy opposite that direction, and if you added more, how many such enemies.

Then consider thematic complications like advanced senses, having different or multiple eyes, or being merely a manifestation of thought as a humanoid but actually being an omnipresent force :p


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I'd be most worried about

I'd be most worried about trying to set up the pathing for the minions to get into proper position, frankly. I don't know if we have a notion of facing in combat, but that's not too hard to compute, actually, nor is the angle an attack comes in from. However, there are complications in the latter, such as something attacking from overhead; the math gets *very* sensitive to the exact position, and abruptly changes over a very small movement.

The notion of some kind of positional/coordinated swarm attack is interesting, but the devil is in the details. And I'm pretty sure the NPC AIs run on a fairly slow timescale, compared to player characters reactions. Not sure what effect that would have.

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Iathor wrote:
Iathor wrote:

I'd be most worried about trying to set up the pathing for the minions to get into proper position, frankly. I don't know if we have a notion of facing in combat, but that's not too hard to compute, actually, nor is the angle an attack comes in from. However, there are complications in the latter, such as something attacking from overhead; the math gets *very* sensitive to the exact position, and abruptly changes over a very small movement.

The notion of some kind of positional/coordinated swarm attack is interesting, but the devil is in the details. And I'm pretty sure the NPC AIs run on a fairly slow timescale, compared to player characters reactions. Not sure what effect that would have.

Reading this makes it seem like it's possible, but complicated. Which isn't what I wanted, but also I completely understand. Makes me think that this COULD be added, but not when the class comes out.

Meh, I'm an optimist. :)

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Lothic
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The other thing to remember

The other thing to remember is that the beneficial effect of flanking/backstabbing any enemy in this kind of game is likely only going to be noticeable against the relatively few boss-type MOBs. Anything that's a minion or an underling usually only survives maybe a second or two once you've engaged a group with a personal army of pets or a full team of players.

The "concept" of flanking/backstabbing enemies is cool and can be very useful in other games. I just don't see it being worth the effort to make it a "thing" in CoT, especially if it's going to be limited to a certain archetypes or maybe to a limited set of powers.

To be fair maybe outflanking can be defined in CoT as simply a different form of generic debuff? I mean is the basic idea of "attacking someone from the side/behind" that much different than say throwing a smoke screen over them? In both cases the defender can't easily see the attack coming...

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Note: In this discussion I

Note: In this discussion I have used the term perception for both the perceiver's stat and the the act of perceiving. CoT uses the term Awareness for the character stat and so from this point forward, so will I. I will continue to use the term perception to refer when one character is aware of another. In other words, when one character's awareness stat exceeds another character's stealth stat, perception has been achieved. It's a subtle distinction, but I think it will make sense as you read further.
Let's begin.

Lothic wrote:

To be fair maybe outflanking can be defined in CoT as simply a different form of generic debuff? I mean is the basic idea of "attacking someone from the side/behind" that much different than say throwing a smoke screen over them? In both cases the defender can't easily see the attack coming...

This statement led me to an interesting thought:

We already know that awareness is going to be computed both in and out of combat and that it will be positional/directional. Refer to this link for background discussion on that. We also know there will be no misses. All attacks will hit except for those attacks that are overcome by the target's ability to dodge or evade. For this reference, I've quoted below a bit from a thread on the topic:

Tannim222 wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Tannim ...
To my mind, the only way that is possible/reasonable to assume is if you default every attack Power to working on a basis of You Almost Always Hit by default ...

Your assumption about Accuracy being a nonessential factor is mostly true. Accuracy only matters when Evasion is involved.

There is no “fumble” roll. That would be a MIss Rate which you only need to worry about when affected by particular debuffs:

So, can we take that to mean that in a vacuum, no debuffs or evasion (or other possible effects) involved, powers always hit?

Correct.

So, I'm going to suggest a mechanic here that does not insert any combat mechanic that isn't already part of the game.

The more melee attackers there are in melee range and targeting a single target, the more it either debuffs the target's awareness or buffs the attackers' stealth, or both. The only attacker whose stealth would not be buffed is the attacker who is being countertargeted by the target. In other words, every melee attacker who attacks a target who is not targeting them in return will cause 1 unit of this debuff and buff. This doesn't have to be linear either, so every attacker could double it, for instance. This follows on the assumption that a target who has not perceived an attack can not use dodge or evasion to avoid it; thus ensuring it hits.

This increased percentage of hits will have the effect of increased overall damage.

    Furthermore there should also be ways to modify this for both the attackers and the defenders:
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for defenders to buff their Awareness or increase the number of targets they can simultaneously defend against before their Awareness is affected. Tanks who intend to wade into swarms would do well to equip these.
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for defenders to buff their Defense, Evasion, Resistance, Subtraction or other stat based on the number of attackers within melee range. Ditto about tanks.
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to increase their stealth so as to prevent targets from employing their dodge and evasion. This is effectively an arms race between Awareness and Stealth.
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to increase their Accuracy when attacking from stealth (if this is not already a hard-wired combat modifier).
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to increase damage or Crit Rate when attacking from "stealth" (if this is not already a hard-wired combat modifier).
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to debuff their target's Defense, Evasion, Resistance, Subtraction or other stat when attacking from "stealth." I'm not sure if this will be acceptable because if I understand Tannim222 correctly, he has stated that the target's Defense, Evasion, Resistance and subtraction are outputs that are affected by all attackers and would be applied to all attackers, and so any debuffs would apply to all, not just the stealthed one. But as this is just one suggestion of many possible ideas, I'll leave this idea here and let the devs tell us if it is reasonable or not, should they care to comment.

Also note that by these rules any character who ignores melee attackers in order to conduct a ranged attack at a target beyond would make themselves susceptible to even a single melee attacker. And I think that is realistic and appropriate, so it passes that test.

This also passes the test that Lothic puts forward in the citation above. Any use of an ability that decreases the Awareness of a target would have the same effect. Whether the aesthetic representation of that ability is a smoke grenade, a blinding attack, a stunning cry or what have you, they would all result in the ability of an attacker to attack with all the advantages of stealth. (thinking about this further could lead to wonderful horizontal progression builds built around such tactics; equipping augments and refinements and masteries...)


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

So, I'm going to suggest a mechanic here that does not insert any combat mechanic that isn't already part of the game.

The more melee attackers there are in melee range and targeting a single target, the more it either debuffs the target's awareness or buffs the attackers' stealth, or both. The only attacker whose stealth would not be buffed is the attacker who is being countertargeted by the target. In other words, every melee attacker who attacks a target who is not targeting them in return will cause 1 unit of this debuff and buff. This doesn't have to be linear either, so every attacker could double it, for instance. This follows on the assumption that a target who has not perceived an attack can not use dodge or evasion to avoid it; thus ensuring it hits.

This increased percentage of hits will have the effect of increased overall damage.

    Furthermore there should also be ways to modify this for both the attackers and the defenders:
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for defenders to buff their Awareness or increase the number of targets they can simultaneously defend against before their Awareness is affected. Tanks who intend to wade into swarms would do well to equip these.
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for defenders to buff their Defense, Evasion, Resistance, Subtraction or other stat based on the number of attackers within melee range. Ditto about tanks.
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to increase their stealth so as to prevent targets from employing their dodge and evasion. This is effectively an arms race between Awareness and Stealth.
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to increase their Accuracy when attacking from stealth (if this is not already a hard-wired combat modifier).
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to increase damage or Crit Rate when attacking from "stealth" (if this is not already a hard-wired combat modifier).
  • Augments and refinements and/or masteries for attackers to debuff their target's Defense, Evasion, Resistance, Subtraction or other stat when attacking from "stealth." I'm not sure if this will be acceptable because if I understand Tannim222 correctly, he has stated that the target's Defense, Evasion, Resistance and subtraction are outputs that are affected by all attackers and would be applied to all attackers, and so any debuffs would apply to all, not just the stealthed one. But as this is just one suggestion of many possible ideas, I'll leave this idea here and let the devs tell us if it is reasonable or not, should they care to comment.

Also note that by these rules any character who ignores melee attackers in order to conduct a ranged attack at a target beyond would make themselves susceptible to even a single melee attacker. And I think that is realistic and appropriate, so it passes that test.

This also passes the test that Lothic puts forward in the citation above. Any use of an ability that decreases the Awareness of a target would have the same effect. Whether the aesthetic representation of that ability is a smoke grenade, a blinding attack, a stunning cry or what have you, they would all result in the ability of an attacker to attack with all the advantages of stealth. (thinking about this further could lead to wonderful horizontal progression builds built around such tactics; equipping augments and refinements and masteries...)

I like this idea. The value of the unit debuff and the equation for multiple enemies can be tweaked in playtesting, and as noted it uses existing mechanics. Perhaps the unit value can be reduced for enemies that are close to the line of sight to the Targeted Enemy, to reflect Peripheral Vision.

I'd like to add two caveats, which may already be obvious but just in case:

  • The case in which Awareness is zero, that is the character is effectively blind, should have the maximum debuff to awareness already. Further debuffing should not be allowed. Whether we have a cutoff or diminishing returns to achieve this is an exercise left for the developer. ^_^
  • Being swarmed by enemies should not affect a character's ability to randomly target one, though it may affect the ability to target the one the player intends to target. Just because the character is surrounded should not effectively make all those enemies invisible.

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Huckleberry
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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

[*]Being swarmed by enemies should not affect a character's ability to randomly target one, though it may affect the ability to target the one the player intends to target. Just because the character is surrounded should not effectively make all those enemies invisible.

This is a really good point. This was my intention about the exception for the one being countertargeted by the target, but what if the target has not countertargeted one of the swarm (or defeats his opponent and wants to select the next opponent) before they reduce his awareness to zero? How does the defender select its next target? That's the case you mention up and is a serious defect in my proposal. I like your solution that a character may automatically attack a target within melee range. I think your suggestion would also be easy to implement as it takes advantage of existing game mechanics.

As has been discussed elsewhere, CoT will be adopting one of the game mechanics of CoX. To wit, when one activates an ability without a selected target, it will automatically target the opponent closest to front center. It does this even if the player has not selected that target manually either by tabbing or by using any reticle. Whether or not we want that undirected attack to enjoy all the accuracy buffs of a targeted attack can be up for discussion and game testing; but it should allow a character to strike out at nothing and if something is there, hit it.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Ok a couple of things.

Ok a couple of things.

First, we do have directional perception range which is a multiplier if the Awareness and direction. The rear-facing perception cone has a smaller multiplier.

Now we don’t have a “backstab” on all characters as a standard mechanic.

However there is an Enforcer Mastery that provides a crit bonus on targets with one of the conditions of it being perceived.

The base stealth power for a stealth tertiary allows a player character to reach melee range from behind the enemy without being perceived, but not the front and sides.

We would be adding an Awareness debuff on enemies with if they are surrounded by Merle attackers. First, Awarenss Debuffs not only reduce Perception, they also Increase the Miss Rate on the debugged target. For Stalwarts that might want to, say surround themselves with enemies, well then they might not be hitting anything as a result.

We also wouldn’t require pet positioning around an enemy as a condition for certain mechanics. Anytime someone forced a move of the desired target would cause nothing but frustration on the pet user because they would lose their bonus.

Now we could use the Mets in X range of target for certain bonuses, sure. We can even, say make a “stealth pet”. That has a power that gives it stealth and say uses that has a condition to get bonus damage on an attack if done so while in stealth.


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Lothic
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Ok a couple of things.

First, we do have directional perception range which is a multiplier if the Awareness and direction. The rear-facing perception cone has a smaller multiplier.

Now we don’t have a “backstab” on all characters as a standard mechanic.

However there is an Enforcer Mastery that provides a crit bonus on targets with one of the conditions of it being perceived.

The base stealth power for a stealth tertiary allows a player character to reach melee range from behind the enemy without being perceived, but not the front and sides.

As always thanks for providing some actual game mechanic info. Sounds like you've already accounted for providing perception "modifiers" for attacking targets from the rear. Like you say it might not be a classic "2x backstab bonus" but it's better than nothing.

Tannim222 wrote:

We would be adding an Awareness debuff on enemies with if they are surrounded by Merle attackers. First, Awarenss Debuffs not only reduce Perception, they also Increase the Miss Rate on the debugged target. For Stalwarts that might want to, say surround themselves with enemies, well then they might not be hitting anything as a result.

Yeah this highlights the point that we players often forget: A combat mechanic that affects the NPC MOBs has to affect (as much as reasonably possible) players as well. If players can surround a MOB and get some kind of tangible combat advantage for doing so the NPCs ought to be able to get some kind of combat advantage for surrounding a PC. Not sure your average Stalwart is going to like that.

Tannim222 wrote:

We also wouldn’t require pet positioning around an enemy as a condition for certain mechanics. Anytime someone forced a move of the desired target would cause nothing but frustration on the pet user because they would lose their bonus.

I know that some people like to "micromanage" their pets in games like this but as you say it seems like this would lead to more micromanagement than it'd be worth. CoT isn't a table-top wargame where you're meant to spend hours maneuvering your units around on a map to get the best firing solutions.

As a tiny anecdote back when I was playing "City of Shall Not Be Named" I preferred playing with Controller pets far more than Mastermind henchmen because I found the micromanagement needed for Masterminds to be far too annoying. Ironically I found I was able to "control" pets like Fire Imps far more fluidly than having to specifically position each Mastermind pet. Obviously that was just a preference on my part - I'm just mentioning this because making Operator pets even MORE micromanagement-oriented is probably not a good design goal for CoT.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I know that some people like to "micromanage" their pets in games like this but as you say it seems like this would lead to more micromanagement than it'd be worth. CoT isn't a table-top wargame where you're meant to spend hours maneuvering your units around on a map to get the best firing solutions.

As a tiny anecdote back when I was playing "City of Shall Not Be Named" I preferred playing with Controller pets far more than Mastermind henchmen because I found the micromanagement needed for Masterminds to be far too annoying. Ironically I found I was able to "control" pets like Fire Imps far more fluidly than having to specifically position each Mastermind pet. Obviously that was just a preference on my part - I'm just mentioning this because making Operator pets even MORE micromanagement-oriented is probably not a good design goal for CoT.

In defense of the OP (if the OP doesn't mind ;-P) I think giving pets a bonus as a reward for better positioning is not the same as requiring that they be micro-managed. I think what the OP was getting at is that the more attentive, skilled and dedicated the Player is, the more they should be able to get out of their minions. I fully endorse this. This doesn't require micro-management, but it rewards it if done skillfully.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I know that some people like to "micromanage" their pets in games like this but as you say it seems like this would lead to more micromanagement than it'd be worth. CoT isn't a table-top wargame where you're meant to spend hours maneuvering your units around on a map to get the best firing solutions.

As a tiny anecdote back when I was playing "City of Shall Not Be Named" I preferred playing with Controller pets far more than Mastermind henchmen because I found the micromanagement needed for Masterminds to be far too annoying. Ironically I found I was able to "control" pets like Fire Imps far more fluidly than having to specifically position each Mastermind pet. Obviously that was just a preference on my part - I'm just mentioning this because making Operator pets even MORE micromanagement-oriented is probably not a good design goal for CoT.

In defense of the OP (if the OP doesn't mind ;-P) I think giving pets a bonus as a reward for better positioning is not the same as requiring that they be micro-managed. I think what the OP was getting at is that the more attentive, skilled and dedicated the Player is, the more they should be able to get out of their minions. I fully endorse this. This doesn't require micro-management, but it rewards it if done skillfully.

In the interest of fairness I will readily admit my definition of what constitutes "pet micromanagement" is likely different from the average player's view on the matter.

Although I always liked the general idea of having a bunch of pets my particular tolerance for the way Masterminds actually worked in CoSNBN was was extremely low. To put it into perspective just about the only archetype I never leveled up to 50 was a Mastermind. I tried 3 or 4 of them - I just could never put myself through the personal pain of playing them. On the other hand I probably collectively played several different Fire Controllers for over 10,000 hours so obviously that version of "pet management" was far more appealing to me.

To each their own - no one said every player of every game had to like 100% of what the game offers. I simply disliked Masterminds just as I'm sure there were people who hated how Controllers and their pets worked. Having said all that I tend to agree with Tannim that anything that would "motivate" a player to want to constantly position pets in precise locations in order to gain some kind of "backstab bonus" is likely going to be perpetually disappointed/frustrated.

It's not a question of rewarding a player's skill with maneuvering pets. It's more a question of whether a given MOB ever lives long enough in a game like CoT for a "backstab/flank" by a pet to even be noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

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Several Tanker Primaries

Several Tanker Primaries leveraged the effect of being surrounded to Amplify Defenses. The more enemies trying to get into your pants space, the better.

In CoH, the primary advantage of 'backstabbing' your foe is that they usually didn't turn around and 'front-stab' you in return. Not unless you managed to earn ALL the Aggro!. And if they did, then you protected your team.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

First, Awarenss Debuffs not only reduce Perception, they also Increase the Miss Rate on the debugged target.

Is Miss Rate a thing now? Or are you just using the common expression "miss rate" to mean a lower accuracy value that can be overcome by a defender's dodge or evasion values?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

First, Awarenss Debuffs not only reduce Perception, they also Increase the Miss Rate on the debugged target.

Is Miss Rate a thing now? Or are you just using the common expression "miss rate" to mean a lower accuracy value that can be overcome by a defender's dodge or evasion values?

Maybe their combat system is designed to assume everything in the game starts with a 100% chance to hit that gets modified downward instead of the more natural assumption that everything starts with 0% chance to hit that gets modified upward. So instead of saying something like I have a 98% accuracy rate maybe it's expressed in terms of saying I have a 2% miss rate. *shrugs*

Doing it that way might not be intuitive to the average person but it would be as completely valid and might make some of their combat math easier to handle. Obviously I'm just speculating here...

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Tannim has pointed out that

Tannim has pointed out that the assumption is that you will always hit. Any target is likely to have some kind of defense (e.g. evasion or, apparently, swarming the attacker) and / or may apply (de)buffs which will lower the chance to hit (i.e. increase the miss rate). So, yeah, accuracy works to push that back to 100%. You could say it's less "accuracy" and more a "resist debuff".

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

First, Awarenss Debuffs not only reduce Perception, they also Increase the Miss Rate on the debugged target.

Is Miss Rate a thing now? Or are you just using the common expression "miss rate" to mean a lower accuracy value that can be overcome by a defender's dodge or evasion values?

Miss Rate is part of our hit calculation It is separate form Accuracy and Accuracy Debuffs.

If your power has any accuracy, and your miss rate is 0, and your target has 0 evasion, then your power will always hit.

To complicate this, if you have a power with 100 accuracy and a target with 100 evasion, you have a 50% chance to hit or have your attack evaded.

However if your Miss Rate is 10% then you have a 10% chance to Miss AND a 50% chance to be evaded.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

First, Awarenss Debuffs not only reduce Perception, they also Increase the Miss Rate on the debugged target.

Is Miss Rate a thing now? Or are you just using the common expression "miss rate" to mean a lower accuracy value that can be overcome by a defender's dodge or evasion values?

Miss Rate is part of our hit calculation It is separate form Accuracy and Accuracy Debuffs.

If your power has any accuracy, and your miss rate is 0, and your target has 0 evasion, then your power will always hit.

To complicate this, if you have a power with 100 accuracy and a target with 100 evasion, you have a 50% chance to hit or have your attack evaded.

However if your Miss Rate is 10% then you have a 10% chance to Miss AND a 50% chance to be evaded.

As you yourself implied this does seem overly "complicated". But I assume having what amounts to two different "accuracy" variables (Accuracy and Miss Rate) somehow makes applying different buffs and debuffs to the combat calculations easier. At least for your sake I hope it makes things easier overall.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

First, Awarenss Debuffs not only reduce Perception, they also Increase the Miss Rate on the debugged target.

Is Miss Rate a thing now? Or are you just using the common expression "miss rate" to mean a lower accuracy value that can be overcome by a defender's dodge or evasion values?

Miss Rate is part of our hit calculation It is separate form Accuracy and Accuracy Debuffs.

If your power has any accuracy, and your miss rate is 0, and your target has 0 evasion, then your power will always hit.

To complicate this, if you have a power with 100 accuracy and a target with 100 evasion, you have a 50% chance to hit or have your attack evaded.

However if your Miss Rate is 10% then you have a 10% chance to Miss AND a 50% chance to be evaded.

As you yourself implied this does seem overly "complicated". But I assume having what amounts to two different "accuracy" variables (Accuracy and Miss Rate) somehow makes applying different buffs and debuffs to the combat calculations easier. At least for your sake I hope it makes things easier overall.

It may help those familiar with the old game to think of Miss Rate as something similar to the old game’s to-hit debuffs. It’s not exactly the same, but can have a similar effect.

Think if it like this, Evasion only happens when the target has an Evasion value (Power). Evasion is the “act” of dodging or avoiding the attack.

Miss Rate is just that - the power “missed” the target.

In general, you don’t have any chance to “miss”. Unless you are affected by something that increases your Miss Rate - which is typically tied to Awareness Debuffs.

Awareness is parameter we use to determine Miss Rate and Perception. As Awareness is debuffed, Perception is reduced and Miss Rate goes up. When Awareness is fully debuffed, the target I has no perception, it can’t hit anything (Miss Rate is 100%). It doesn’t matter how accurate a power at that point, you can’t “perceive” a target to hit it.

This is one of the topics I have flagged for an update (our hit roll system and related mechanics) for when we have more visuals to go with it.


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As near as I can figure from

As near as I can figure from what Tannim said, the calculation for Miss Rate is performed to save on the number of calculations performed.

Lets talk about a simple combat.

Without a Miss Rate value, the hit or miss calculation would need to be made for each attack and the result communicated to both the game server and the client in real time.

With Miss Rate, it is calculated once for each participant. If any buff or debuff effects accuracy, dodge or evasion, then the miss rate is recalculated and updated. Throughout combat, calculation of hit or miss is not a calculation at all, but rather just a datacall of the Miss rate value.

So while Miss Rate is a value within the mechanics of the game, it is not a value that any player or character would ever know or experience. They know their stats: Accuracy, Awareness, Dodge and Stealth. And as far as players are concerned, that's all we'll need to know.

(Edit: Deleted Perception from the list of stats and replaced it with Awareness. Unlike Miss Rate, Perception seems to be the mechanical output of Awareness as modified by directional factors and buffs and debuffs. Perception then gets compared to the opposed Stealth value and seems to have a binary result. Either the opponent is perceived or not.)


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

As near as I can figure from what Tannim said, the calculation for Miss Rate is performed to save on the number of calculations performed.

Yeah again we have to assume there's an overall beneficial purpose for it even if at face value it seems non-intuitive and/or overly complicated. The combat mechanics of the average computer based MMO certainly doesn't have to be (or probably could never be) as relatively simplistic as say a basic table-top RPG game.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

With Miss Rate, it is calculated once for each participant. If any buff or debuff effects accuracy, dodge or evasion, then the miss rate is recalculated and updated. Throughout combat, calculation of hit or miss is not a calculation at all, but rather just a datacall of the Miss rate value

Every attack action calculates a hit roll (unless the action is set up an an auto-hit action which bypasses a hit roll). The calculation takes into account the current Miss Rate, Accuracy vs Evasion, and Crit Rate. Or at least, that is the simplest terms to use. An attack can either miss, hit, be evaded, or crit. As a baseline action, we consider that attacks don't miss as long as there is any Accuracy involved. Once Evasion is used, than an attack will either hit, be evaded, or crit. If the target's Awareness gets debuffed, then their chance to Miss increases. Now, if we want, we can make powers with a native Miss Rate but it wouldn't be wise to do so without a major trade off as any Awareness Debuffs would result in the power having a higher than normal Miss Rate.


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*Casts Illusionary Daydream

*Casts Illusionary Daydream on the Foe, causing him to imagine Miss Rate likes him, so I can sneak past.*

Be Well!
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

With Miss Rate, it is calculated once for each participant. If any buff or debuff effects accuracy, dodge or evasion, then the miss rate is recalculated and updated. Throughout combat, calculation of hit or miss is not a calculation at all, but rather just a datacall of the Miss rate value

Every attack action calculates a hit roll (unless the action is set up an an auto-hit action which bypasses a hit roll). The calculation takes into account the current Miss Rate, Accuracy vs Evasion, and Crit Rate. Or at least, that is the simplest terms to use. An attack can either miss, hit, be evaded, or crit. As a baseline action, we consider that attacks don't miss as long as there is any Accuracy involved. Once Evasion is used, than an attack will either hit, be evaded, or crit. If the target's Awareness gets debuffed, then their chance to Miss increases. Now, if we want, we can make powers with a native Miss Rate but it wouldn't be wise to do so without a major trade off as any Awareness Debuffs would result in the power having a higher than normal Miss Rate.

Okay. So I was completely wrong.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that every ability has an inherent chance of missing, called the Miss Rate, not to be confused with Miss Rate, the supervillian beauty queen referenced by Fireheart above. This is completely not the impression we got from your statement that "attacks always hit." You may have been technically correct in the specific words used back then; but like I said, the impression was that attacks have no inherent chance of missing. I also understand that every attack is a die roll with its own unique calculations of probabilities.

Not that this is a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but I thought we should at least set the record straight.


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Not every ability, but every

Not every ability, but every attack action that goes through a hit roll calculation. However, Miss Rate is based off the character’s Awareness.

Of Awareness is debuffed, then all the the character’s attack actions that require a hit roll calculation will have a chance to miss.

I probably unintentionally added confusion when I mentioned we can give attacks a native Miss Rate. Which, if we wanted to, we could, because of the flexibility of our power design system. But, I would advise against any developer wanting to do so unless there were some major trade offs. And since, at the moment, I’m the primary power designer, that means none of the launch powers will be made that way.


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