Maybe CoH got it right by doing everything wrong.
CoH basically let you do everything you're not "supposed" to in a modern MMORPG.
If you wanted to you got to be a special snowflake, or a Mary Sue/Marty Stu, or a Tankmage, or overpowered. You could step out of the Holy Trinity. You got REAL crowd control. You got truly free travel. You weren't locked into the game story. Etc.
It was perhaps naive. But... it... was... frikking... AWESOME!!!
And all this in the Superhero genre, where it's not just ok- it's essential! A genre where you can tell a truly good story with such a character in a game where you could have an absolute blast doing it.
As CoH's spiritual successor, I personally hope CoT flouts most of the current MMORPG conventions (that came after CoH anyway) with intrepidness!
They seem determined to, and that warms the cockles of my heart. Whatever those are.
What'ch'all think?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Such statements always confuse me, especially when used to make a comparison to a game that is 5+ years old. What is a "modern MMORPG"? Does that mean ca. 2004, when CoH was launched? Does that mean ca. 2007, when the IO system was introduced? Does it mean post-WoW?
Are you expressing a concern that MWM, in their effort to create a spiritual successor to CoH, will create a game that heaves to "most of the current MMORPG conventions" and is less like CoH? If that's not it then I have to say - while I understand and share the hope and excitement most of us feel for this game - surely there are enough existing threads in which to encourage us to pat ourselves on the back, for supporting MWM and CoT, that we did not need another.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Hi Darth,
Huh. I just woke up and logged on, and I seem to have gotten a stronger reaction from you than I expected to get from, well, anyone, with that post. It was an idea that occurred to me that I thought might spur productive discussion. Or not. And if not, I supposed, no harm done.
So, to clarify.
By "modern" I mean the games I've played since CoH shut down that were created well after CoH. In order: Champions, The Secret World, and DCUO. So that would mean 2009 and after? Plus what I've heard people express about other recent games on various--but mostly these--forums. I mean, CoH did come out a hair before World of Warcraft. It's a different generation from what many people are playing.
I wasn't intending to express a concern, just to make an observation for potential discussion.
Specifically that 1) the things that I've personally disliked about the games that I've tried to play since CoH have consistently been related to what appears to have become the common conventions in MMORPG's, conventions that that weren't generally used in CoH with a few exceptions, and
2) that, from reading people's comments on these forums, when I thought about it, many favorable comments about CoH and unfavorable comments about other games often seemed to come down to the same.
So, I thought I might spur further discussion about which common gaming/game development conventions are liked/disliked and how that factored into the success of CoH--which seemed to me to be relevant to the development of CoT.
I did do a few searches around "common MMORPG conventions" and the like and didn't find a specific thread, so I figured it wouldn't be too redundant. But I see now I should have been more clear. It was late. And there may have been some hard cider involved (the good British kind, very dry and slightly bitter with subtle barnyard notes. Nicely bretty).
And so, once again, as with my overweening sig pick, I have been improved by the keen eye of Darth (and that's mostly sincere with just a hint of sarcasm in retaliation for the down-dressing :P)!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
For the sake of pointing out that our shared experiences are mostly limited to CoH, of the three MMOs you mentioned I've only played Champions and even that experience is going on the better part of four years old.
I am unclear by what you understand to be MMO conventions. I presumed you had meant features (e.g. group finder, dungeon/PvP queues, quest GPS) but that is evidently not the case. Some examples would be helpful (although I suspect a lot of it will come down to free form vs holy trinity, as evidenced by the discussions on that subject).
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Perhaps how the story was approached? Things seemed open ended enough to allow you to fill in the gaps. A lot of the motivation of you character was left for you to fill in. And that you could ignore the story of the game all together was an option.
I'd say potentially all or any of those things. I'm on my phone now and I hate thumb typing, so I'll keep it brief, but I'd say anything that is currently usually "taken for granted" in MMORPG development and design. The things that many people just assume that you have to have in an MMORPG. Queuing, dungeons, trinity, set story/origin, etc.
It's easy to pick any argument apart. Use the Socratic Method long enough and all anyone ends up being able to say is "I don't know". So I'll simply ask the forums: what ARE the current established MMORPG conventions that people assume you need but maybe you don't, and which would you specifically like to see or not see in CoT?
And if it's not a productive topic or these things have been discussed enough, let the thread die. Bad late-night call on my part :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I definitely see what Darth is saying since many variations of this statement is all over the forums, and it's ran into the ground. I don't blame you though because I'm excited as well. Seriously, I've made spreadsheets for characters already lol. It's pretty bad.
Knowing that this entire project exists due to the cancellation of CoX, and thousands wanting the game back, I would think the parallels in every aspect needs to be pretty damn close to CoX. I am very much looking forward to the character creator and the way we choose our powers. With the risk of sounding too dorky, I think about it almost every day. I think that is a prime example of innovating CoX's system, but being faithful to it. With the classification/specification/mastery, you can make a Stalker if you want, but you aren't limited to the CoX's Stalker AT. The combat systems needs to stay the way it was. The graphics shouldn't be cell-shaded or cartoony--CoX wasn't. Find the concepts that had major potential, but fell on their face, and optimize their functionality. Everything needs to have semblance to CoX, but innovate and grow from it. Otherwise, what's the point of "bringing it back" if it isn't emulated? I personally haven't play any other MMORPGs in the past 3 years, so my knowledge is limited on anything new, but what I do know is CoX kept me locked from 2004 - 2012 with every aspect of it's design. It'd be a major undoing if the system is compromised just for the sake of jumping on recent trends. From what I've read, MWM is standing quite true to the path, which has my locked.
5 OClock Shadow
"The Five", "Old Scruff", "Wolfbrand", "Tashomono"
Your shaving days are numbered...
The important thing is not to mirror CoH, but to appeal to people who liked CoH for the same reasons. If we can also appeal to people who never played CoH, then we have a chance of a larger following.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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Right, it's a fine line, but any game with highly customizable super heroes/villains will most likely appeal to CoX players. I mean that should apply to anyone who hasn't played a super hero mmo, and loves comics and games. But the other reason why we want CoX back is due to its mechanics. You don't need to mirror the game to still be in the same ball park.
5 OClock Shadow
"The Five", "Old Scruff", "Wolfbrand", "Tashomono"
Your shaving days are numbered...
I think this is what I have been doing a bad job of trying to express.
Since I've now tried a few games after CoH and have not been able to find one that I enjoy, I realized that the things I did not like about those other games was basically the same for each of them. And also that those things seem to generally be part of what has become the accepted "formula" of what people expect in an MMORPG. Specifically, things like a rigid trinity, tons of endgame dungeons and queuing and grinding, being fairly locked into a particular story and origin, lack of truly easy puging, only being able to handle one or two mobs at a time, etc.
So then when I thought about what people were saying on these forums about what they liked in CoH and liked or didn't like in other games, it was often these same type of things. So it made me think that the very lack of what would now be considered formulaic design and lack of conventional features might have been a big part of what appealed to us about CoH. And so I thought a discussion about the current conventions and what would be considered unconventional about CoH compared to newer games might be interesting.
Or not :P. Maybe it's not that different of an angle from what has already been discussed as I thought when it occurred to me. You swing and sometimes you miss.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
The fact that there was no loot, but enhancements, was a good example of CoX breaking the mold. I played EverQuest since 1999, and it was a huge relief that I didn't have to worry about having amazing gear so I could get good groups or even function properly. You could get your enhancements from any mob, it greatly reduced down time, and that made the game fly by faster. It was one less feature to keep your mind on. IOs made enhancements more of a treasure hunt of course, but you could get them from any mob, and there still wasn't any camping mobs or getting all sour if you weren't chosen to get the endgame gear. It just made the community friendlier. Plus you could either find them, or build them, which reduced the anxiety of waiting to getting them from some lord in a castle somewhere.
I've heard people saying they wish salvage/loot had more of a point in CoX, but I was grateful that it wasn't. Even though I was a beast as getting gear in EQ, playing 72 hours straight just to get a belt. I simply don't have 72 straight hours to spare anymore. Plus, let's be real, that is a tremendous waste of time (however, if I have a 3 days weekend, and the house to myself--there's a chance I'd play 72 hours straight of CoT haha). If loot does exist in CoT, it should have statistics and attributes that operate in the game world, and it should be visible costume pieces you are awarded in missions, or fight mobs from specific factions. Like electric damage claws costume piece, X-Ray vision goggles, or aether pirates jet pack (permanent). No waiting, no down time, you just get exp/inf the entire time you're indirectly playing to get that costume piece.
edit: Basically like Vanguard, Rularuu, etc costume pieces, except they function rather than just looking pretty.
5 OClock Shadow
"The Five", "Old Scruff", "Wolfbrand", "Tashomono"
Your shaving days are numbered...
Inspirations were a pretty cool feature. The were a choice to abuse and build your play style around or you could save them for emergencies instead.
If I were to import a similar feature to CoT I would think about having the temp buffs have different effects on powers (like +dmg to non-physical damage and boosted critical chance and bypass armor for physical damage for you "power" inspiration) or greater/less effect depending on classification.
More than the question of loot vs no-loot, one of the things that I loved about CoH is no lootING. My rewards were all automatic, I didn't have to stop to loot and there was no competition for 'special' loot. Generally, my teammates had no idea what I'd picked up, unless I rebroadcast that information. "Holy Carp, I just got a Purple!" And there was no "Hey, you have to give that to ME, because I'm the one that really earned it!"
Be Well!
Fireheart
Exactly, Fireheart. I think not having loot was one of the keys to having a strong community. I hate feeling bogged down the way loot always does. Additionally, it's funny how travel powers made that feeling go away exponentially. Which is double the relief CoH gave. For someone like me who can jump on and off in 20 - 30 mins, and still get something accomplished, that's the game for me.
5 OClock Shadow
"The Five", "Old Scruff", "Wolfbrand", "Tashomono"
Your shaving days are numbered...
Hey, you have to give that to ME, because I'm the one that really earned it!
[img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnx79nOU3F1qktqch.jpg[/img]
*Stareeeeeeeee!*
Heh!
But, IF I didn't mention it, you'd have no cause to argue, because you wouldn't know. In other games, the appearance of that purple would cause need/greed fights and flame-wars and vicious trolling, because anyone might want it. And everyone in the party knows about it, because of the need/greed/pass pop-up.
CoH didn't have that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
The Secret World Quest Design I - Why Many MMOs Rely on Repetitive Grind Quest > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otAkP5VjIv8&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg and Quest Design II - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur6GQp5mCYs&index=59&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg
whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich
[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/hinata1032/Kitsune.jpg[/img]
And here I am playing Wildstar, where it seems that in that game with a Need/Greed system in play, I have yet to see these fights occur... even in PUG groups.
+1 about CoH giving double-relief. And I didn't know till I played other games.
I've been playing The Secret World some, but no travel power + standard loot/gear/grind has made me feel exactly that--bogged down. It takes so long to get anything done and doing it isn't fun.
Even on DCUO where you not only have travel powers but they did a really great job with them, the queue for loot/gear grind treadmill still just felt like slogging through molasses.
I haven't seen any Need/Greed fights either, though I don't pug much in TSW. Even so, after CoH the Need/Greed system feels like an extra immersion-breaking step that slows things down. It feels fiddly. But I know some people are used to it and like it.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I am in two minds over the need/greed system.
I can like them because of the fact that you can end up getting an item that is handy for you... and you SEE that it has dropped (so you are aware of it). Downside though, people sometimes ninja it away from you.
However, one thing that I *DO* think that most of these systems should have (with Need/Greed) and that WoW does, is that items are still *tradeable* between members in the group for up to 2 hours *after* it has been looted. Once it has been equipped... no luck on that.
So tie that in with a Master Loot system (ie one person doles them out as needed), or even with a group that gets on well with each other... you can at least make sure that items are going to who needs them.
City of Heroes, they didn't have the tracking in for that... and it *really* did bug me when team mates would post their purple drops that they were getting in the run... and I would get a Pacing of Turtle for the 20th time in that run, as they rack up their 5th Purple drop.
But in my mind, there is NO ideal system out there.. only limits of what people are willing to accept.
Side note: It is worth noting that alternative acquisitions methods are nice as well. Even better would be if "crafted" gear was "better" than what you could get from the normal mobs... which is something that CoX did with the IO's.. although it could be said that they were *possibly* too much of an improvement over the normal items that dropped.
modern mmos seem to have a path, a road to follow. even if the road is a bit wide to give the impression of freedom.
alas, when in atlas park, starting out, ANY direction is possible.
there are so many limits on choices in modern mmos. limited power choices, travel patterns. it all makes a game nice and smooth, easy to playtest and balance. but gets sour and boring after a time. everquest came close, but by everquest 2 you HAD to take certain options. the hand holding was increased, and the recent changes to everquest2 even include getting a horse through the second major solo campaign. disgusting.
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
And City of Heroes changed it so that you got you Travel powers at level 4 and not Level 14... Disgusting...
yuck! when i got fly at lvl 14, it truely felt like a gift. and the wonders of the ground were not lost on me. i felt like a god.
if you can fly right away, it feels like nothing but a race to finish before the month is up, and on to the next mmo.....
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
Empyrean's original post here definitely resonated with me. I think the reason CoX was so much fun for so many -- and the reason so many are here waiting for CoT instead of just happily moving on to other MMOs -- is because CoX was different. I tried WoW back in the day and hated it, and now I find most other MMOs have (naturally, due to WoW's financial success) decided to emulate WoW -- thereby reproducing many of the features that turned me off WoW in the first place.
Some of the key things for me have already been mentioned: no requirement for holy trinity, endgame that is not the main focus of the game -- with strong support for alting via frequent content releases for < 50, Enhs instead of gear, no looting, and inspirations (especially the way they worked with no timeout afterwards). I'd also say that divorcing appearance from ability was a huge bonus. There were also features that were not quite so "in the spotlight", like the excellent chat system that even let us create our own channels. To this day it stuns me when a "modern" MMO doesn't have the chat features that our ancient CoX had. I also feel I have to mention /ghide and /screenshotui here as well.
Towards the end, I felt CoX was starting to jump on the "me too" bandwagon with things like mobs respawning on top of you and the giant gold coins above contacts' heads. An argument could even be made that Freedom and the store were a sort of "me too" move, though I think there was much more to the decision than that.
Once in a while I hear suggestions made here with the only justification being that other games are doing it -- though usually couched in marketing terms like, "We need to keep up with the times." For example, more active combat has sometimes been argued for in this way. MWM is definitely not making a copy of CoX, but I think they understand that most of us are here because CoX was [i]different[/i] from most MMOs, not because of the similarities. So far they seem to have a pretty clear grasp of what they think of as the core elements that made CoX unique and enjoyable, and the changes they have planned seem to be true innovations, not just "me too"s.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Just to point out that even just *asking* for the ability to use powers whilst on the move (ie no rooting) has been "complained against" because it is too "twitch like".... which is ironic really, because WoW allowed you to do this, and at CoX's launch, CoX was viewed as having a *faster* combat system when compared to World of Warcrafts; and whilst World of Warcrafts combat hasn't really changed over the years (for levelling up) it felt *faster* than City Of Heroes Freedom did.
So even doing something not because *everyone else* is doing it, but because it might give a different feel, and whilst you could say that some abilities break when you move (hey, CoX had it with the Dom Psychic Snipe power, which meant you could quickly build up your dom bar without actually hitting a mob), it seems bizarre to me that most players feel that *every* power should root you to the floor. Some of those same people also *admit* that they "cheated" the game engine to cast on the move, even when they knew that they *shouldn't* have been able to do it)
And hell, it isn't like that casting on the move and still having tab targetting is a "new idea"... as I said, World of Warcraft allowed it. Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa (yes it had tab targetting, as well as more FPS style targetting)... Guild Wars 1, RF Online, Final Fantasy 14...
But very very few *root* you to the floor with every single attack.
Sometimes being different for the sake of being different is *not* always a good idea.
In fairness to Blizzard, WoW is often copied or emulated because they have innovated quite a lot. Whether or not the implementation of these ideas was always good or successful, or even ideal, is a separate discussion.
In fairness to Cinnder, the point he was driving at is that it is important that a developer be aware whether they are adopting a mechanic or feature because many other games have them or whether those mechanics or features are of real use and benefit to their game.[color=red]*[/color] (Insert standard 'clueless suits driving development decisions' disclaimer here.)
[br]
[color=red]*[/color] Cinnder is not my sock puppet. Honest.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Yeah, Gangrel: in my book saying no to something *only* because it's different is as bad as saying yes just because "all the other games at school are doing it." As Darth said, each change or not-change should be evaluated in regards to use/benefit to the game. And the vision of what MWM wants it to be.
Oh yeah? Try typing that while drinking a glass of water!
Spurn all ye kindle.
You still drink water our of a glass? How gauche.
Anyway, I'm a proper typist. I type with two hands or not at all!
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
That's what the Bendy-straw is for.
All Hail the Bendy Straw!
Be Well!
Fireheart