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Master x master shutting down

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FalconStriker
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Master x master shutting down

So, as some of you remember, in 2014 ncsoft refused to sell the coh ip. Then this year then released mxm with coh and cov characters, much to the displeasure and disappointment of coh fans.

In jan, mxm will be shut down. Some might argue mxm is part of the reason ncsoft refused to sell the ip.

Now i wonder if ncsoft will feel regret for not selling it once city of titans goes full release? Time will tell.

Lothic
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FalconStriker wrote:

I doubt the fact that a few CoH characters ended up in MxM really had a major effect on the fate of that game one way or the other. I also doubt NCsoft specifically refused to sell the CoH IP just because their "grand multi-year plan" was to have Statesman be the key flagship reason anyone played (or didn't play) that game. I think they used the CoH characters in MxM simply because they were proverbially just "lying around" not being used for anything else.

NCsoft might technically regret they could have sold the CoH IP back when it had some residual value a few years ago. But in the long run I'm sure they weighed their own "pros and cons" and decided to kill CoH when it was still borderline profitable than to let it lag on into a period where it was actively losing them money. Remember even if CoH had not been shutdown in 2012 it more than likely would've been shutdown (or had a major overhaul) by now. Let's not pretend it was going to last forever regardless.

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Call me petty, but I find

Call me petty, but I find that hilarious. Serves them right. Not just for the possibility that they refused to sell the IP because of that game, but because they tried to cash in on yet another MOBA game.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I doubt the fact that a few CoH characters ended up in MxM really had a major effect on the fate of that game one way or the other. I also doubt NCsoft specifically refused to sell the CoH IP just because their "grand multi-year plan" was to have Statesman be the key flagship reason anyone played (or didn't play) that game. I think they used the CoH characters in MxM simply because they were proverbially just "lying around" not being used for anything else.
NCsoft might technically regret they could have sold the CoH IP back when it had some residual value a few years ago. But in the long run I'm sure they weighed their own "pros and cons" and decided to kill CoH when it was still borderline profitable than to let it lag on into a period where it was actively losing them money. Remember even if CoH had not been shutdown in 2012 it more than likely would've been shutdown (or had a major overhaul) by now. Let's not pretend it was going to last forever regardless.

WoW is still around. It's why I feel CoH could still be around.

Lothic
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I doubt the fact that a few CoH characters ended up in MxM really had a major effect on the fate of that game one way or the other. I also doubt NCsoft specifically refused to sell the CoH IP just because their "grand multi-year plan" was to have Statesman be the key flagship reason anyone played (or didn't play) that game. I think they used the CoH characters in MxM simply because they were proverbially just "lying around" not being used for anything else.
NCsoft might technically regret they could have sold the CoH IP back when it had some residual value a few years ago. But in the long run I'm sure they weighed their own "pros and cons" and decided to kill CoH when it was still borderline profitable than to let it lag on into a period where it was actively losing them money. Remember even if CoH had not been shutdown in 2012 it more than likely would've been shutdown (or had a major overhaul) by now. Let's not pretend it was going to last forever regardless.
WoW is still around. It's why I feel CoH could still be around.

It "could" be. But by now the Incarnate system would've been done and we would've all been running around with god-like hyper-powered characters. It's at least questionable how much longer past 2012 it would've lasted with its 2004 era graphics and no real way to advance past the Incarnate system. *shrugs*

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I doubt the fact that a few CoH characters ended up in MxM really had a major effect on the fate of that game one way or the other. I also doubt NCsoft specifically refused to sell the CoH IP just because their "grand multi-year plan" was to have Statesman be the key flagship reason anyone played (or didn't play) that game. I think they used the CoH characters in MxM simply because they were proverbially just "lying around" not being used for anything else.
NCsoft might technically regret they could have sold the CoH IP back when it had some residual value a few years ago. But in the long run I'm sure they weighed their own "pros and cons" and decided to kill CoH when it was still borderline profitable than to let it lag on into a period where it was actively losing them money. Remember even if CoH had not been shutdown in 2012 it more than likely would've been shutdown (or had a major overhaul) by now. Let's not pretend it was going to last forever regardless.
WoW is still around. It's why I feel CoH could still be around.

Two major reasons why WoW is still going.

They update the game engine, textures and character models so to at least not look that dated.
They periodically reset the power level of players so that they have new goals to strive for.

From what I have read for CoH the first one would have been very difficult since they made some very poor design decisions early on.
For the second one, well CoH didn't really have a system for that so would have been difficult to do an equivalent. The incarnate system was closer to a new raid or sub-zone rather than a "power level reset".

I don't deny that CoH could have been around today but I seriously doubt it.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I doubt the fact that a few CoH characters ended up in MxM really had a major effect on the fate of that game one way or the other. I also doubt NCsoft specifically refused to sell the CoH IP just because their "grand multi-year plan" was to have Statesman be the key flagship reason anyone played (or didn't play) that game. I think they used the CoH characters in MxM simply because they were proverbially just "lying around" not being used for anything else.
NCsoft might technically regret they could have sold the CoH IP back when it had some residual value a few years ago. But in the long run I'm sure they weighed their own "pros and cons" and decided to kill CoH when it was still borderline profitable than to let it lag on into a period where it was actively losing them money. Remember even if CoH had not been shutdown in 2012 it more than likely would've been shutdown (or had a major overhaul) by now. Let's not pretend it was going to last forever regardless.

I mean I suppose, but coh wasn't costing them money, actually. It was still profitable, just not as profitable as their other ips.

I think if they kept it alive and worked on a sequal, it would have been a better investment than mxm by far. Or even selling it would have been better.

Selling the ip would have been a good pr move too.

Ncsoft is almost as bad as ea when it comes to pr.

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FalconStriker wrote:
FalconStriker wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I doubt the fact that a few CoH characters ended up in MxM really had a major effect on the fate of that game one way or the other. I also doubt NCsoft specifically refused to sell the CoH IP just because their "grand multi-year plan" was to have Statesman be the key flagship reason anyone played (or didn't play) that game. I think they used the CoH characters in MxM simply because they were proverbially just "lying around" not being used for anything else.
NCsoft might technically regret they could have sold the CoH IP back when it had some residual value a few years ago. But in the long run I'm sure they weighed their own "pros and cons" and decided to kill CoH when it was still borderline profitable than to let it lag on into a period where it was actively losing them money. Remember even if CoH had not been shutdown in 2012 it more than likely would've been shutdown (or had a major overhaul) by now. Let's not pretend it was going to last forever regardless.
I mean I suppose, but coh wasn't costing them money, actually. It was still profitable, just not as profitable as their other ips.
I think if they kept it alive and worked on a sequal, it would have been a better investment than mxm by far. Or even selling it would have been better.
Selling the ip would have been a good pr move too.
Ncsoft is almost as bad as ea when it comes to pr.

Yes CoH as was still technically "profitable" in 2012 but without a sequel or a massive overhaul (both of which would have COST extra money) it was likely going to have to be "sun-setted" by now. As I said they did the math and simply decided it was a game (and market) they didn't want to keep investing in.

Was that ultimately a smart move for them knowing what we all know now in 2017? Who knows? Maybe if they had sold the IP back in 2012 when it was still a viable game they might have made a bit more money in 2012-2013 than they did but even that's questionable.

Obviously as a player of CoH I still think what NCsoft did to CoH was sucky and the fact that they didn't sell the IP when it was worth something was even suckier. But I still see this over the "long run" and realize that "in the long run" it'll probably be better for all of us that people like MWM had to do what they did (start making an entirely new game) than to worry trying to work with an old game based on old tech. Remember the folks running CoH were already telling us (by the end) that the game was becoming a nightmare to maintain and very hard to update. It's been hard to wait years for a new game but ultimately it'll be better for us all to be playing one of the "spiritual successors" than to be limping along with a 15+ year old kludge job.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Brand X
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It may have been a nightmare

It may have been a nightmare to maintain then, but it was getting maintained.

Now it could be a nightmare for us if we don't care for how CoT turns out. :/

Lothic
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

It may have been a nightmare to maintain then, but it was getting maintained.

Right... but I suspect that "nightmare" was among the top reasons NCsoft dropped CoH like a hot potato. They saw that whatever "profit" they were making from the game was going to eventually be sucked into costly hardware and code maintenance to keep the aging game going. I still contend they decided to "pull the plug" while the game was relatively healthy just to spare it the lingering death spiral that was looming on the horizon. I might concede they pulled the plug a year or two too early, but what are we going to do about it now?

Brand X wrote:

Now it could be a nightmare for us if we don't care for how CoT turns out. :/

Sure CoT is still a big "question mark". But trust me, the chances that we'd still be playing the same basic CoH we remember from 2012 today in 2017 (without major overhauls/changes) is almost nil. Enjoy the memories for what they were.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Gotta go with Lothic on this

Gotta go with Lothic on this one. The CoH devs did a great job and we will always love them for it. Like how we got power customization because Castle slogged through a metric ton of tedious to do it. But there were some big issues too. Bases almost could not be modified and super groups were heavily attached and affected. (For those that don't know, the guy that was hired to create the base system did NOT document his code. Any attempt to adjust bases after he was let go risked breaking things in unexpected ways. For example I went into my base one Saturday and zoned into a blue grid on a grey background instead of my base.) Years after CoV introduced bases, there was no announced headway. Socially, global channels took over a few SG functions as a result.

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Yeah, but I didn't hate most

Yeah, but I didn't hate most of the changes (loved IOs for instance).

I always figured CoH would one day shut down, but I do feel, if they had waited for CoH to not be profitable, they wouldn't have had the hate and the fans would've been more understanding, which may have helped their other games a little.

WS and BNS both had reasons to fail, but they may have had more players flock to them if CoH closed when it was actually unprofitable for instance.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I always figured CoH would one day shut down, but I do feel, if they had waited for CoH to not be profitable, they wouldn't have had the hate and the fans would've been more understanding, which may have helped their other games a little.

If I had to guess the collective "bean counters" of a big company like NCsoft would have rathered written off a marginally profitable game that was already "past its prime" than to have suffered one that was already spiraling down in the red. Looks better for their "bottom line". Again I seriously do think CoH had at least another good year or two before they should have even considered shutting it down, but it's all water under the bridge now.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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As much as I wish it were

As much as I wish it were true, I don't think Statesman and Ghost Widow being in MxM meant anything. It wasn't a nod, or a hint that they haven't forgotten about CoH. NCSoft probably took a look at their backlog and were like "Hey, we have some superhero-looking characters. That's marketable!". Keep in mind that NCSoft is a Korean company looking after the Korean market first and foremost. CoH's beta bombed in Korea so hard it never got a proper release there. That was most likely the biggest factor in the shutdown of CoH.

So ultimately nothing was gained or lost out of this. Glad to see MxM is getting shut down though. I hate MOBAs, and this one tried to shamelessly cash in on a game they killed.

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The Hybrid wrote:
The Hybrid wrote:

As much as I wish it were true, I don't think Statesman and Ghost Widow being in MxM meant anything. It wasn't a nod, or a hint that they haven't forgotten about CoH. NCSoft probably took a look at their backlog and were like "Hey, we have some superhero-looking characters. That's marketable!". Keep in mind that NCSoft is a Korean company looking after the Korean market first and foremost. CoH's beta bombed in Korea so hard it never got a proper release there. That was most likely the biggest factor in the shutdown of CoH.
So ultimately nothing was gained or lost out of this. Glad to see MxM is getting shut down though. I hate MOBAs, and this one tried to shamelessly cash in on a game they killed.

Supposedly it was a personal project of one of the devs to get Statesman into MxM, which at the time sounded like they were trying to down-play some of the flack they were getting for included that character. Then again, that's likely my bias being projected onto their statement, and it's entirely possible that it was just one guy who wanted to see those characters again in some form or fashion.

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https://www.cinemablend.com

https://www.cinemablend.com/games/1729380/marvel-heroes-shuts-down-early-lays-off-entire-development-team

Looks like Marvel Heroes is going "poof!" in a way even more egregious than what NC$oft did to City of Heroes. Effective retroactively instantaneous "so long suckers!" from the people in charge of what was left.


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Ouch. That is worse than

Ouch. That is worse than what happened to CoH. Hearing about the shut down awhile ago, I can't help but wonder if it's Disney wanting a different online game presence than Marvel Heroes, which I'm not sure how well it was doing with players or how well it sold on console (which I hear hurt the pc players).

Never played it myself. Was waiting for Spider-Woman to show up before I gave it a try. :/

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

https://www.cinemablend.com/games/1729380/marvel-heroes-shuts-down-early-lays-off-entire-development-team
Looks like Marvel Heroes is going "poof!" in a way even more egregious than what NC$oft did to City of Heroes. Effective retroactively instantaneous "so long suckers!" from the people in charge of what was left.

Wow... that does put things into perspective. Doesn't make what NCsoft did to CoH any "better" but it does show that what happened to us could have been worse. Maybe they decided the idea of closing the game down almost literally at Christmas-time was going to be a worse looking PR move than just yanking it now. Still blows either way.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Marvel Heroes failed in one

Marvel Heroes failed in one aspect. All the other games allowed for player created heroes. Players have more of an attachment to their own heroes. I was never tempted to play MH because COH spoiled me...it want my own characters

as for NC Soft. I have no sympathy for them. They made no attempt to save or even sell a salvageable game. I refuse to play any of their games, and I will never send them a single cent. They bought COH and dropped it the first chance they got. I do not consider them a good company.

~~contrast to MWM: they plan for the game to continue even after it finally closes. That shows a Dev team that loves the game. And that is why MWM will succeed where the other hero games will fail.

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Marvel Heroes could of been

Marvel Heroes could of been good, or at least ok. But it ended up being a really mediocre Diablo-esque game.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Marvel Heroes failed in one aspect. All the other games allowed for player created heroes. Players have more of an attachment to their own heroes. I was never tempted to play MH because COH spoiled me...it want my own characters
as for NC Soft. I have no sympathy for them. They made no attempt to save or even sell a salvageable game. I refuse to play any of their games, and I will never send them a single cent. They bought COH and dropped it the first chance they got. I do not consider them a good company.
~~contrast to MWM: they plan for the game to continue even after it finally closes. That shows a Dev team that loves the game. And that is why MWM will succeed where the other hero games will fail.

If they (NCSoft) didn't buy it, it (CoH) was going to shut down sooner than when it did. Cryptic not wanting it to compete with their new superhero mmo.

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What new Superhero MMO?

What new Superhero MMO? Champions?

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Yeah. CoH was going to be

Yeah. CoH was going to be shut down if it wasn't for NCSoft saying "Hey. We'll buy it from you."

If Cryptic shut CoH down when they were planning, do you still think CoH would've had the impact it did to have others come and create a game like CoT?

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

What new Superhero MMO? Champions?

Not the original plan, no. Marvel Universe Online was worth abandoning CoH for, until Microsoft bailed on publishing MMOs, and Marvel bailed because Microsoft bailed. Champions was the IP they used to salvage the development work, since all this happened after they burned bridges with NCSoft and Paragon.

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