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Massively OP Game Archaeologist's recent look at CoH

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Interdictor
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Massively OP Game Archaeologist's recent look at CoH

Over the last few months Massively OP's Game Archeologist has taken a historical look at the life and death of City of Heroes. It's good to see the game still getting a little attention, though I know it had some big fans among the M-OP crew.

PART 1 - Digging up the History
PART 2 - Launch and Marvel Lawsuit
PART 3 - CoV, ED and Going Rogue
PART 4 - Paragon Studios Era
PART 5 - The Death of the Game

TheInternetJanitor
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One day.

One day.

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Thanks for posting this,

Thanks for posting this, Interdictor. I'm not a big follower of game news in general, so I probably wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

Interesting article, though having lived through most of it, there weren't many surprises for me in there. But nice to see it all encapsulated and organized like that.

I think a lot of people stopped being angry about ED once the invention system came on line... I know I did. Of course, it's hard to even think about being angry over ED, compared to how it felt to have the game (still profitable) yanked out from under us.

Still hurts. Still hurts.

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Massively OP is awesome.

Massively OP is awesome.

F#$% NCSoft.

God bless MWM.

Just how I feel.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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By the sounds of what was

By the sounds of what was mention on Discord, it now seems less a matter of F#$% NCSoft and more a matter of F#$% Texas!

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Why Texas?

Why Texas?

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Geveo wrote:
Geveo wrote:

I think a lot of people stopped being angry about ED once the invention system came on line... I know I did. Of course, it's hard to even think about being angry over ED, compared to how it felt to have the game (still profitable) yanked out from under us.

I recall Matt Miller saying that the Invention System was originally supposed to happen right around the same time as ED to reduce the overall effect on the game, but due to content re-prioritization, it was pushed off. It certainly stands to reason that it would have reduced the impact it had by lessening (and in some cases negating) the effects of GDN and ED, and of course the butt-hurt on the forums. Honestly, I wasn't huge into other sections of the forums outside my server at the time, so I didn't even know about the changes until I couldn't easily solo level+6 baddos anymore on my BS/SR scrapper after some big-ass patch dump. In fact, me getting whupped shortly after logging in is what prompted me to start reading patch notes and providing feedback to the devs. That's also how I learned about the (at the time) unique relationship that the devs had with the community and how accessible they generally were. They weren't these ivory tower higher beings that made magic happen, but honest to goodness real people that had just as much invested in the health and continued success of the game as we, the playerbase, were, if not more so as it was their livelihood. Similar to what we have here on CoT with MWM.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Geveo wrote:

I think a lot of people stopped being angry about ED once the invention system came on line... I know I did. Of course, it's hard to even think about being angry over ED, compared to how it felt to have the game (still profitable) yanked out from under us.

I recall Matt Miller saying that the Invention System was originally supposed to happen right around the same time as ED to reduce the overall effect on the game, but due to content re-prioritization, it was pushed off. It certainly stands to reason that it would have reduced the impact it had by lessening (and in some cases negating) the effects of GDN and ED, and of course the butt-hurt on the forums. Honestly, I wasn't huge into other sections of the forums outside my server at the time, so I didn't even know about the changes until I couldn't easily solo level+6 baddos anymore on my BS/SR scrapper after some big-ass patch dump. In fact, me getting whupped shortly after logging in is what prompted me to start reading patch notes and providing feedback to the devs. That's also how I learned about the (at the time) unique relationship that the devs had with the community and how accessible they generally were. They weren't these ivory tower higher beings that made magic happen, but honest to goodness real people that had just as much invested in the health and continued success of the game as we, the playerbase, were, if not more so as it was their livelihood. Similar to what we have here on CoT with MWM.

Indeed then I’ve toon system was originally to be done sooner. It was a “skill” system which they could never get quite they the way they wanted to and had to rework from the ground up to work within the rest of the CoH system.

Meanwhile they had to move forward with both the GDN and after, ED in preparation for the invention system. During Beta of ED, Emmett eluded to this on the forums and was subsequently ignored and instead berated for the horribleness of ED.

I restated what he said, using more precise language to explain why ED had to happen and how, if the devs wanted to provide new types of enhancements that would provide better or more benefits in order to get back to (or near enough, and in other cases surpass) what ore-ED could do, they had to have the GDN and ED in place.

Emmett quoted me on my post and remaked how insightful it was. Many continued to lament over the changes however.

It was a terrible way to go about it for players but something which the devs saw as a necessity. They actually needed time with players playing the game with ED in place to make sure they had the amount of data to prove their internal testing to be accurate enough. For the invention system to work it needed a new, form foundation to work off of.

They still ended up making a huge mistake however. They invention system took too consideration into how players like to build characters and ended up providing too much defense bonuses. It was only muchblater that Posi would remark that he had wished they had struck a better balance between defense and resist bonuses.


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Direct quote from the first

Direct quote from the first article linked in the OP:

"Ideas were one thing, money to make it happen was another. Lewis invested $2.5 million of his own money into Cryptic’s superhero project, and the studio secured $4.5 million more in loans from NCsoft. This would actually be pretty cheap in comparison to operating costs, which leaped to $18 million per year when the game went live."

EGADS! $18 million PER YEAR?!?!?

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Geveo wrote:
Geveo wrote:

I think a lot of people stopped being angry about ED once the invention system came on line... I know I did.

Basically ED had to happen in order to "make room" for the invention system. The thing that made the whole thing truly "annoying" was the multi-year delay between when ED happened and when the invention system was finally implemented. Had the two happened nearly simultaneously as was the original plan most people today probably would have barely remembered it was even a "big deal" 14 years ago like we do now. ;)

Geveo wrote:

Of course, it's hard to even think about being angry over ED, compared to how it felt to have the game (still profitable) yanked out from under us.

Still hurts. Still hurts.

Clearly losing the game completely makes the idea of still being upset over ED kind of pointless...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Direct quote from the first article linked in the OP:

"Ideas were one thing, money to make it happen was another. Lewis invested $2.5 million of his own money into Cryptic’s superhero project, and the studio secured $4.5 million more in loans from NCsoft. This would actually be pretty cheap in comparison to operating costs, which leaped to $18 million per year when the game went live."

EGADS! $18 million PER YEAR?!?!?

Just spit-balling here but when you add up the salaries of perhaps say 100 people and then all the costs of running servers 10+ years ago I could easily see a game like CoH costing $10-20 million a year to operate. I figure if MWM is smart about it (leveraging modern server tech and a streamlined decentralized workforce) they could probably get that figure down to maybe the $5 million per year range.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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$18M really isn't all that

$18M really isn't all that much, considering; If Lothic's number of 100 employees is right (seems small, but I guess we're talking right after launch) and if you go for a 70k/year salary average (which is definitely low; I make close to that amount, and I'm in the military, not a high-end software firm) and you've got $7M alone just in salaries for primary employees.

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$18M = 100K subscribers at

$18M = 100K subscribers at $15 a month. I know CoH's subscriber #s varied a lot over the years, but I'm pretty sure they crested over 100K for at least part of the time the game was active. Then there would be box sales on top of that. It's my understanding that the game was basically profitable for most if not all of its run. If the budget hit $18M a year, it was probably during development for CoV, when the team was fairly large, and large #s of box sales could be reasonably expected.

Of course that whole calculation goes out the window once they made the switch to FTP.

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The $18M number is from a

The $18M number is from a quote involving the operating budget right after going live, not during the development push for CoV. I think it's likely that it was upwards of $30M/year at that point. $18M/year was probably the lowest that their operating budget got for most of the CoH run, up until the end when they were obviously starting to look for ways to cut the budget, and eventually shut everything down, and for an endeavor as big as CoH was, it's an entirely reasonable budget. As I guesstimated, $7M is about the bargain basement price for covering their average employee salary, and I imagine that the peripheral employees outside of just the development and QA teams pushed that number considerably higher than 100; Then you're paying the electric bill for the servers and various support systems, maintenance fees, recurring licenses for software and tools, facility rent, dedicated internet connections... I have no doubt that CoH was profitable for most of its run, but let's not try to downplay how much it costs to run something like an MMO.

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DariusWolfe wrote:
DariusWolfe wrote:

The $18M number is from a quote involving the operating budget right after going live, not during the development push for CoV. I think it's likely that it was upwards of $30M/year at that point. $18M/year was probably the lowest that their operating budget got for most of the CoH run, up until the end when they were obviously starting to look for ways to cut the budget, and eventually shut everything down, and for an endeavor as big as CoH was, it's an entirely reasonable budget. As I guesstimated, $7M is about the bargain basement price for covering their average employee salary, and I imagine that the peripheral employees outside of just the development and QA teams pushed that number considerably higher than 100; Then you're paying the electric bill for the servers and various support systems, maintenance fees, recurring licenses for software and tools, facility rent, dedicated internet connections... I have no doubt that CoH was profitable for most of its run, but let's not try to downplay how much it costs to run something like an MMO.

Remember though that CoV was released just 18 months after CoH started so the development cycle for CoV had to be about as big as it was ever going to get just months after CoH launch. I think you'd have to factor in some of that initial "$18 million per year" for CoV at least in the first couple of years. I honestly think the "$18 million per year" figure was probably among the highest yearly operating costs CoH ever dealt with, not the lowest. I'll bet CoH managed to hit $5-10 million a year levels in some of their later, non heavy development years.

Regardless of what the actual numbers were two things are safe to say: 1) even a modest-sized MMO like CoH and CoT do (and will) cost millions per year even on what could be considered a "shoe-string" budget for a MMO and 2) as far as I ever heard CoH was a "profitable" game, even when NCsoft decided to axe it. Remember NCsoft basically took Paragon Studios by surprise in August 2012 with the shutdown announcement - the game was running fine budget wise until the very end. It obviously never made WoW-sized profits but it was likely going to be able to continue for at least several years beyond November 2012 assuming NCsoft had allowed it to continue. From NCsoft's point of view CoH wasn't losing money, it just wasn't making enough money.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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FYI, reportedly CoH cost $7m

FYI, reportedly CoH cost $7m to develop and was budgeted $18m annually budgeted for marketing, maintenances, and support costs. Notice that doesn’t include salutary which came from the studio budget.

For game development, whether you are indie or an established studio with a publisher, the rule of thumb for budgeting is 10k per employee per month. This covers everything from salary, taxes, insurance, building lease, maintenance of building and servers, QA, utilities, and hardware costs. Note this is development, not upkeep post development.

Our “advantage” is that we can avoid the costs associated with a building. But we pay for that organizationally working with a team that are all remote operators in different time zones.

If you want to do the math, an average game studio dev (one with a publisher) salary in the US is $123k/year. An indie dev team is $52k/yr.


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That all sounds about like I

That all sounds about like I'd expect; I was looking at entry-level software development jobs (in the industry, not indie) probably right around the time CoH was released, and $70k/year was common for entry-level; I doubt most of the devs working at Cryptic were entry level. That's what I was basing my initial estimates on. If salary isn't even included in that $18M, then that makes even more sense as an annual operating number.

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TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Why Texas?

Well, if I recall correctly, the reason NCSoft backed out of CoH was because of a new tax Texas was going to implement, that would cost NCSoft, which headquartered there, $80+ million.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Why Texas?

Well, if I recall correctly, the reason NCSoft backed out of CoH was because of a new tax Texas was going to implement, that would cost NCSoft, which headquartered there, $80+ million.

That's news to me. This was mentioned by someone reputable on whichever Discord?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Why Texas?

Well, if I recall correctly, the reason NCSoft backed out of CoH was because of a new tax Texas was going to implement, that would cost NCSoft, which headquartered there, $80+ million.

Wow that's the first I heard of that - seems plausible enough for something Texas would do at any rate. ;)

So does this basically mean it was easier for NCsoft to drop a non-failing game and presumably pull out of the US completely rather than just find another less tax-happy state?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Paragon Studios was in

Paragon Studios was in Northern California was it not?

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Why Texas?

Well, if I recall correctly, the reason NCSoft backed out of CoH was because of a new tax Texas was going to implement, that would cost NCSoft, which headquartered there, $80+ million.

Wow that's the first I heard of that - seems plausible enough for something Texas would do at any rate. ;)

So does this basically mean it was easier for NCsoft to drop a non-failing game and presumably pull out of the US completely rather than just find another less tax-happy state?

While NCSoft having an office in Texas, Paragon Studios was in Cali. The Texas tax issue (if true) would not have affected any sale to a studio in Cali

They also have 2 offices in California: Aliso Viejo, and Sam Mateo. One of which is the HQ for NCSoft’s entire mobile division. And still maintain the Austin Texas office as well. I highly doubt the rumor to be true.

.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Why Texas?

Well, if I recall correctly, the reason NCSoft backed out of CoH was because of a new tax Texas was going to implement, that would cost NCSoft, which headquartered there, $80+ million.

Wow that's the first I heard of that - seems plausible enough for something Texas would do at any rate. ;)

So does this basically mean it was easier for NCsoft to drop a non-failing game and presumably pull out of the US completely rather than just find another less tax-happy state?

While NCSoft having an office in Texas, Paragon Studios was in Cali. The Texas tax issue (if true) would not have affected any sale to a studio in Cali

They also have 2 offices in California: Aliso Viejo, and Sam Mateo. One of which is the HQ for NCSoft’s entire mobile division. And still maintain the Austin Texas office as well. I highly doubt the rumor to be true.

.

The Texas branch of the company, NCInteractive, was shut down and its assets sold to a new branch of the company, one headquartered in Washington State, 30 days after CoH. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-14-ncsoft-corp-to-sell-nc-interactive

They have an office in Texas for a new company, formed the following year.

I would say a lot of factors went into the shutdown. The $80 million dollar gorilla in the room ($83.4 million napkin estimate based on how the law reads to me) would at least explain some of the rumored pricetags for CoH back in '12-'13.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Why Texas?

Well, if I recall correctly, the reason NCSoft backed out of CoH was because of a new tax Texas was going to implement, that would cost NCSoft, which headquartered there, $80+ million.

Wow that's the first I heard of that - seems plausible enough for something Texas would do at any rate. ;)

So does this basically mean it was easier for NCsoft to drop a non-failing game and presumably pull out of the US completely rather than just find another less tax-happy state?

While NCSoft having an office in Texas, Paragon Studios was in Cali. The Texas tax issue (if true) would not have affected any sale to a studio in Cali

They also have 2 offices in California: Aliso Viejo, and Sam Mateo. One of which is the HQ for NCSoft’s entire mobile division. And still maintain the Austin Texas office as well. I highly doubt the rumor to be true.

.

The Texas branch of the company, NCInteractive, was shut down and its assets sold to a new branch of the company, one headquartered in Washington State, 30 days after CoH. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-14-ncsoft-corp-to-sell-nc-interactive

They have an office in Texas for a new company, formed the following year.

I would say a lot of factors went into the shutdown. The $80 million dollar gorilla in the room ($83.4 million napkin estimate based on how the law reads to me) would at least explain some of the rumored pricetags for CoH back in '12-'13.

So it sounds like what you're talking about has little or nothing to do with why NCsoft shut CoH down but more to do with why it apparently became impossible for anyone to simply buy the rights to CoH after the shutdown.

Somehow this mystical "$80 million" figure (in extra taxes or whatever) was involved in how much it would have cost to buy CoH from NCsoft?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Why Texas?

Well, if I recall correctly, the reason NCSoft backed out of CoH was because of a new tax Texas was going to implement, that would cost NCSoft, which headquartered there, $80+ million.

Wow that's the first I heard of that - seems plausible enough for something Texas would do at any rate. ;)

So does this basically mean it was easier for NCsoft to drop a non-failing game and presumably pull out of the US completely rather than just find another less tax-happy state?

While NCSoft having an office in Texas, Paragon Studios was in Cali. The Texas tax issue (if true) would not have affected any sale to a studio in Cali

They also have 2 offices in California: Aliso Viejo, and Sam Mateo. One of which is the HQ for NCSoft’s entire mobile division. And still maintain the Austin Texas office as well. I highly doubt the rumor to be true.

.

The Texas branch of the company, NCInteractive, was shut down and its assets sold to a new branch of the company, one headquartered in Washington State, 30 days after CoH. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-14-ncsoft-corp-to-sell-nc-interactive

They have an office in Texas for a new company, formed the following year.

I would say a lot of factors went into the shutdown. The $80 million dollar gorilla in the room ($83.4 million napkin estimate based on how the law reads to me) would at least explain some of the rumored pricetags for CoH back in '12-'13.

So it sounds like what you're talking about has little or nothing to do with why NCsoft shut CoH down but more to do with why it apparently became impossible for anyone to simply buy the rights to CoH after the shutdown.

Somehow this mystical "$80 million" figure (in extra taxes or whatever) was involved in how much it would have cost to buy CoH from NCsoft?

The user data belonged to Ncinteractive. That is right from the EULA. It is possible (IANAL) thst if NCSoft sold that data, they would have had to undo the shutdown of that branch, which would have levied the taxes on them.

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I may be misremembering, but

I may be misremembering, but weren't the support services still run out of Texas even after the devs moved to WA? I could have sworn that the servers remained in TX, and I'm about 98% sure when I had to contact tech support they were still in TX.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I may be misremembering, but weren't the support services still run out of Texas even after the devs moved to WA? I could have sworn that the servers remained in TX, and I'm about 98% sure when I had to contact tech support they were still in TX.

Yes, operated as a "foreign corporation with an in state business license."

And honestly, past this point we are getting into the muck of corporate and tax law.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The Texas branch of the company, NCInteractive, was shut down and its assets sold to a new branch of the company, one headquartered in Washington State, 30 days after CoH. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-14-ncsoft-corp-to-sell-nc-interactive

They have an office in Texas for a new company, formed the following year.

I would say a lot of factors went into the shutdown. The $80 million dollar gorilla in the room ($83.4 million napkin estimate based on how the law reads to me) would at least explain some of the rumored pricetags for CoH back in '12-'13.

So it sounds like what you're talking about has little or nothing to do with why NCsoft shut CoH down but more to do with why it apparently became impossible for anyone to simply buy the rights to CoH after the shutdown.

Somehow this mystical "$80 million" figure (in extra taxes or whatever) was involved in how much it would have cost to buy CoH from NCsoft?

The user data belonged to Ncinteractive. That is right from the EULA. It is possible (IANAL) thst if NCSoft sold that data, they would have had to undo the shutdown of that branch, which would have levied the taxes on them.

So you're saying the main "hangup" over the possible selling of CoH post shutdown was whether or not the "user data" was going to be sold with it or not?

Did nobody explore the possibility of forgetting about the existing user data and just selling the game by itself? Sure it might have sucked to lose all of our existing character data but at least someone could have taken the original game and started it back up again wiped clean and fresh. Having the game to play even with no original characters would have been better than the "no game at all" scenario we ended up with.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The Texas branch of the company, NCInteractive, was shut down and its assets sold to a new branch of the company, one headquartered in Washington State, 30 days after CoH. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-14-ncsoft-corp-to-sell-nc-interactive

They have an office in Texas for a new company, formed the following year.

I would say a lot of factors went into the shutdown. The $80 million dollar gorilla in the room ($83.4 million napkin estimate based on how the law reads to me) would at least explain some of the rumored pricetags for CoH back in '12-'13.

So it sounds like what you're talking about has little or nothing to do with why NCsoft shut CoH down but more to do with why it apparently became impossible for anyone to simply buy the rights to CoH after the shutdown.

Somehow this mystical "$80 million" figure (in extra taxes or whatever) was involved in how much it would have cost to buy CoH from NCsoft?

The user data belonged to Ncinteractive. That is right from the EULA. It is possible (IANAL) thst if NCSoft sold that data, they would have had to undo the shutdown of that branch, which would have levied the taxes on them.

So you're saying the main "hangup" over the possible selling of CoH post shutdown was whether or not the "user data" was going to be sold with it or not?

Did nobody explore the possibility of forgetting about the existing user data and just selling the game by itself? Sure it might have sucked to lose all of our existing character data but at least someone could have taken the original game and started it back up again wiped clean and fresh. Having the game to play even with no original characters would have been better than the "no game at all" scenario we ended up with.

Would we all have been willing to shell out $45-$60 for a new copy of the game, and pay again for all of the costume packs and character slots?

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Lothic
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The Texas branch of the company, NCInteractive, was shut down and its assets sold to a new branch of the company, one headquartered in Washington State, 30 days after CoH. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-14-ncsoft-corp-to-sell-nc-interactive

They have an office in Texas for a new company, formed the following year.

I would say a lot of factors went into the shutdown. The $80 million dollar gorilla in the room ($83.4 million napkin estimate based on how the law reads to me) would at least explain some of the rumored pricetags for CoH back in '12-'13.

So it sounds like what you're talking about has little or nothing to do with why NCsoft shut CoH down but more to do with why it apparently became impossible for anyone to simply buy the rights to CoH after the shutdown.

Somehow this mystical "$80 million" figure (in extra taxes or whatever) was involved in how much it would have cost to buy CoH from NCsoft?

The user data belonged to Ncinteractive. That is right from the EULA. It is possible (IANAL) thst if NCSoft sold that data, they would have had to undo the shutdown of that branch, which would have levied the taxes on them.

So you're saying the main "hangup" over the possible selling of CoH post shutdown was whether or not the "user data" was going to be sold with it or not?

Did nobody explore the possibility of forgetting about the existing user data and just selling the game by itself? Sure it might have sucked to lose all of our existing character data but at least someone could have taken the original game and started it back up again wiped clean and fresh. Having the game to play even with no original characters would have been better than the "no game at all" scenario we ended up with.

Would we all have been willing to shell out $45-$60 for a new copy of the game, and pay again for all of the costume packs and character slots?

Oh I'm sure there would have been a "major churn" of players and there would have obviously been no guarantee enough people would have wanted to get involved with a "rebooted CoH" to make that work. But considering just the number of people who've been interested in the "spiritual successor" projects in the last 6 years I would think that again a "rebooted game" might have been a better alternative than the "no game at all" we've had since then.

P.S. At least my badging characters could have re-earned the Isolator badge without having to camp a Contaminated spawn in RV. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Well... some of us would have

Well... some of us would have. Count me as 1.

Though anyone buying the IP could have chosen what to sell and what not to charge for, depending on how they chose to try to recoup their investment.

I had always assumed the attempts to purchase CoH were just to get the rights to the game code and the IP, not the player data. Rumor was that the player data was lost anyway.

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Geveo wrote:
Geveo wrote:

Well... some of us would have. Count me as 1.

Though anyone buying the IP could have chosen what to sell and what not to charge for, depending on how they chose to try to recoup their investment.

I had always assumed the attempts to purchase CoH were just to get the rights to the game code and the IP, not the player data. Rumor was that the player data was lost anyway.

Yeah to be honest I'm somewhat surprised to learn that the "user data" was even in contention at that point. I more or less assumed the best outcome of the post shutdown chaos would have always been a "rebooted CoH" without the original user data regardless.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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If repurchasing the game

If repurchasing the game meant keeping the game alive and helping to develop the rumored CoX2! Hellsya!

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

If repurchasing the game meant keeping the game alive and helping to develop the rumored CoX2! Hellsya!

No guarantees of rights to a sequel.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

If repurchasing the game meant keeping the game alive and helping to develop the rumored CoX2! Hellsya!

At that point we as players would not have been "repurchasing" the game from NCsoft and/or Paragon Studios to keep the same people in charge. The game would have been sold off (presumably without the original user data) to a third party who would have hopefully (likely at best) been able to "rehost" the original game on new servers to allow players to play it again.

In effect it would have put the game on "permanent life support" and perhaps allowed us to play it for a few more years without even a serious guarantee that it would be upgraded with new Issue releases. Given that scenario the chances things would have eventually led to a some kind of "CoH2" is probably practically nil.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

StellarAgent
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Don't forget that the very

Don't forget that the very first group of people to try and get NCSoft to sell the IP rights were members of the Paragon Studios!

If NCSoft wasn't so afraid of losing Face and had sold it right away, it would have been to the same team of people who had not only developed the game, but were prototyping (on paper at least) a COX2.

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I will be fascinated to hear

I will be fascinated to hear what the CoH devs think about CoT when it's finally playable.

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StellarAgent wrote:
StellarAgent wrote:

Don't forget that the very first group of people to try and get NCSoft to sell the IP rights were members of the Paragon Studios!

If NCSoft wasn't so afraid of losing Face and had sold it right away, it would have been to the same team of people who had not only developed the game, but were prototyping (on paper at least) a COX2.

Well if Paragon Studios had actually bought it free-&-clear of NCsoft it's questionable whether we would have had to "repurchase" the game and it still would have been very questionable whether the mythical CoH2 would have ever happened regardless. Remember Paragon Studios might have fumbled the ball financially (due to having to pay NCsoft god knows how much to buy the game) and been out of business within a year of the acquisition.

Who knows... at this point your guess about all this is as good as any one else's. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Yeah. The "what-if" game can

Yeah. The "what-if" game can only go so far before it reaches realms undreamt of.

Ah well. We have CoT to look forward to. Which wouldn't have happened unless . . .