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Mana/Magicka/Endurance/Energy/Stamina

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DesViper
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Mana/Magicka/Endurance/Energy/Stamina

Of course most combat mechanics are untouched issues so early but still, I've yet to see this on these forums: will there be some Mana/[see title]/Endurance system, and if so how will it work, if not how should it work?

I wouldn't mind having such a system, I worked okay-ish in CoH, it was a bit crippled early game, but by the end most builds could solve the issue (though the inheritance of fitness made this easier.

My only complaint was that critters didn't follow the same rules: as an elect/elect Brute (Gladiator), I could drain a foe of all End and gimp his recovery, but he'd still be throwing attacks at me. Maybe I'm the only one to see this, but this makes such an energy system very one-sided (PvE side).

Thoughts? Info?


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In general I liked the way

In general I liked the way endurance worked in CoH, once inherent stamina was granted, and I feel it led to more enjoyable gameplay than CO's energy builder scheme, once powers were decently slotted with EndRed enhancements. I did have a quarrel with the PvE foes' endurance advantages, as you pointed out.

Part of the problem with end drain's effectiveness against PvE enemies was that while it was possible to drain end to zero, very few drain powers included noticeable -Recovery debuff...so enemies typically got a small pulse of end back almost immediately after being drained, allowing them to resume attacking.

Another problem was the "brawl" attack of enemies (as best I could tell, brawl did not consume endurance for players or foes). Player brawl was quite weak, but many enemies hit nearly as hard with brawl as they could with their regular cycle of powers...meaning that even with zero endurance and -recovery debuff on them, their damage output was not noticeably diminished. Control powers and other debuffs offered much more dramatic ways to cut their damage output, which left end drain rather lacking in comparison.

Lastly, the higher base endurance of Lt/Boss/AV enemies made it essentially impossible for an enemy to run out of endurance. I would have liked to see at least a few enemies whose AI and stats were designed to burn through their endurance in a flurry of attacks, and then need to recuperate. Sadly, all enemies I recall could use their equivalent of a tier 9 blaster nuke or "unstoppable tank mode" and suffer no ill effects when it expired.

These can all be solved with better planning of power effects and proper testing.

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Agreed with all the above.

Agreed with all the above. (Though I didn't need Stamina on more than about a third of my chars.)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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What I do not like is "energy

What I do not like is "energy builders". Whether it is the toggle attacks in Champions or the "weapon" attacks in DCUO, 1) in what universe (as Sheldon would say) does shooting or punching someone give you energy (ok, ok, I know, I know, Hulk, energy drainers, but not MOST Heroes or Villains. Not many, really). 2) I MUCH preferred the CoH way that energy needed to be managed but could be made a non-issue if you wanted (again, choice) vs constantly using, again, 1112111211311121112113 because 1 builds energy.

As a matter of fact, in both DCUO and CO I think energy builders was a failed attempt to find a better way to deal with the much-complained-about energy issue without throwing energy out the window and just giving everyone unlimited stamina (which I would not support). The truth is few Heroes have truly unlimited stamina, and if you build a hero with unlimited stamina that should be a unique characteristic of your hero that you create through choices (I did--gave up a lot but he was an energizer bunny, totally worth it for that particular Hero concetp).

Interestingly, another failed attempt to replace something that was much-complained-about was the DCUO "supercharge" powers replacing the much-complained-about cooldowns. It's an interesting idea, but it's still getting energy from attacking and because it's based on weapons it also leads to 11121112113111211121131114 (finally!) 11121112... Instead of CoH's 11,2,8,4,4,3,9,1,1,6,3,3,7,3,2,12,5...

Plus after Fitness became innate the energy transition was much smoother, and it made sense that the early days of being a hero would get your more "fit" just from the action, so it was a GREAT choice by the Devs. It was good to have your fact rubbed in energy management at very first so you got used to it, then you transitioned to it not being so rough as you grew and chose how much you wanted to focus on Superhuman Stamina as one of your Super Powers.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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In hindsight it may have been

In hindsight it may have been wise to allow recovery to increase as you levelled. I don't remember if this was done in CoH, but if so, it wasn't enough. Having the jump of Inherit fitness made little sense realistically, no one just BOOM! FITNESS GOD!s, it's more of a gradual curve.

For non-humans/unnaturals (Mutants follow similar stamina problems as their homo sapien counterparts) (getting into RP-zone here), a science-based hero (serum, etc) would likely also have a smoother curve; i'd imagine a magician has a rather smooth curve in his magic abilities. The odd one is a tech-based hero, who could, through a series of upgrades, have jumps in his stamina. Boosts could solve the realism aspect of this.


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

In hindsight it may have been wise to allow recovery to increase as you levelled. I don't remember if this was done in CoH, but if so, it wasn't enough. Having the jump of Inherit fitness made little sense realistically, no one just BOOM! FITNESS GOD!s, it's more of a gradual curve.
For non-humans/unnaturals (Mutants follow similar stamina problems as their homo sapien counterparts) (getting into RP-zone here), a science-based hero (serum, etc) would likely also have a smoother curve; i'd imagine a magician has a rather smooth curve in his magic abilities. The odd one is a tech-based hero, who could, through a series of upgrades, have jumps in his stamina. Boosts could solve the realism aspect of this.

I agree. What I meant wasn't that it was the best possible way or that it should be copied, but that it was a great decision on the Dev's part for how to use an existing system to fix an existing problem.

I do think that stamina shouldn't necessarily be incredibly high for all automatically, but the base should be playable. If you want one of your Heroe's powers to be that he has Godlike unlimited stamina like Thor instead of incredible human stamina like Daredevil, or anywhere in between, you should have to build it in on your own as you build your character so it's not too easy to have it all in one Hero.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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+1 to Emp's dislike for

+1 to Emp's dislike for energy-builder powers. It's the single most significant aspect of CO that made combat excruciatingly boring for me.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I would have liked it if your

I would have liked it if your endurance bare scaled just a bit as you leveled. It always seemed weird to me that my HP went up but not my endurance. Even if it had been as small as 1 point every 2 levels (+25 total) it would have felt better.

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I think I'm one of the few

I think I'm one of the few who enjoyed the Power bar in DCUO. It kept you from letting out all the big guns and then running away so you could recharge by making you have to perform your weapon attacks to regain power.. and in a way, it makes sense. I mean Thor doesn't use his lightning powers ALL the time, does he? Nope.. he actually fights with the hammer and uses the lightning every so often. Spidey goes hand to hand AND uses his webs when the situation requires more tactical forms... IMO, it's like you at least have some way of dealing damage while your other powers cool down, a reason I think we should have some form of auto-attack or at least powers with a very quick cooldown and NO End cost to use, but are relatively weak in damage.

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I didn't play DCUO, but the

I didn't play DCUO, but the form of the 111211131115111211121118 (BOOM) Empyrean mentioned should be avoided, in my humbled un-explored opinion.


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I didn't play DCUO, but the form of the 111211131115111211121118 (BOOM) Empyrean mentioned should be avoided, in my humbled un-explored opinion.

The way DCUO works that Lord is talking about is way better than most "energy recovery by attacking" systems, and if we had to have one it would be the best.

You have "powers" and a "weapon". Powers are your hotkeys and use energy. Your weapon is controlled by two buttons--one for ranged and one for melee--usually your mouse buttons, but you can keymap as you like. With those buttons you do "combinations"--click for a small quick hit, hold for a bigger slower hit, click-hold or hold-click for a special combo, etc. Powers might or might not do damage, some are heal or control--like normal--but weapons are only for damage and maybe a bit of crowd control.

Powers burn energy, weapons build energy and build the supercharge bar that allows you to use your really big powers--almost like a type of cooldown.

It is way better than any other energy building system I've seen, and if we had to have that kind of system it'd be best. But I still prefer stamina that works like real stamina. I would think it should be a special power to build energy by hitting, almost like some kind of Endurance brute.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

The way DCUO works that Lord is talking about is way better than most "energy recovery by attacking" systems, and if we had to have one it would be the best.
You have "powers" and a "weapon". Powers are your hotkeys and use energy. Your weapon is controlled by two buttons--one for ranged and one for melee--usually your mouse buttons, but you can keymap as you like. With those buttons you do "combinations"--click for a small quick hit, hold for a bigger slower hit, click-hold or hold-click for a special combo, etc. Powers might or might not do damage, some are heal or control--like normal--but weapons are only for damage and maybe a bit of crowd control.
Powers burn energy, weapons build energy and build the supercharge bar that allows you to use your really big powers--almost like a type of cooldown.
It is way better than any other energy building system I've seen, and if we had to have that kind of system it'd be best. But I still prefer stamina that works like real stamina. I would think it should be a special power to build energy by hitting, almost like some kind of Endurance brute.

Thanks for the explanation for those of us who haven't played DCUO.

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I never could get all of

I never could get all of those click-click-hold-hold combos to work - Too arcane. Most of the time, by the time I click-holded my way through the combo, the situation had changed and I no long Wanted the 'special' attack.

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I was reading this thread and

I was reading this thread and suddenly had a thought: I want ice cream.

No...wait. Not that thought...the OTHER thought!

Short-Term and Long-Term Endurance. The thought stems from my fevered imagination and the really cool superfights we've all seen in the movies and the animated series. The ones that go on for a while and both sides are exhausted at the end. Here's how it might work:

1) Every character has their End bar just like always. Using Powers burns End and End Recovery replenishes End. All of this is standard stuff.

2) A new stat, built into the End system, I'll call Long-Term End. If you get a little winded doing something then your body replenishes the energy and you move on. If you overdo it and exhaust yourself you can bounce back but not as fast or all the way to 100%.

3) Every time you bottomed out your End Bar (not close, not sorta low but down to that last 1%), your Maximum End would drop a bit. How much would be TBD. So if your character has lots of +Rec and End Redux built in and you never drop into the red zone then your End is unaffected. However, during one of those LONG battles where you get to fire your Nuke off a couple of times as well as burning the candle at both ends your maximum End will drop.

4) Here's the great part: This would work for the PvE enemies as well. So if you manage to drain them down they might bounce back, but not as high. The whole fight can turn into a contest to see who has anything left to burn at the end. Oh, and if the adjusted Max End drops below the End cost for a power...you can't use that power. Again, the bad guys would be the same. So if Boss X has this one attack that flattens the team but it bottoms his End he'll only get it once. If you can drain him down before he can use it he may never get to.

This is VERY bolt from the blue and obviously very rough but...thoughts?

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Number 4 is making me think

Number 4 is making me think of the fight scene between Robin Hood and the Sheriff in "Robin & Marian" starring Connery and Shaw.

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Would such an effect be

Would such an effect be permanent? Or just for the rest of the battle?

And if it's the latter*, we'd have to draw a line for when the battle is "over".

*Thanks fireheart :p


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If you draw two lines, with

If you draw two lines, with short lines connecting them, then you have a ladder.Or you could have the latter later, with a late night latte.

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Dunno. Rather than applying

Dunno. Rather than applying a complex endurance system to every Hero to try to emulate an epic fight, I'd say keep End simple and let people use powers and IO-type things to alter their endurance in the way that fits the Hero.

One main I had was a Willpower SS brute with just endless endurance. I payed for that endurance, but not even his tier 9 crash bothered me. His concept called for him to have endless endurance and guess what his playstyle was--SCRAPPERLOCK, baby, still swingin after everything's down.

My other was a fire tank and it took a lot to make him tough as I wanted and I couldn't invest nearly as much in End, so keeping up endurance took constant vigilance and use of powers that drained it from enemies.

The simplicity of the End bar and the variety of ways you could alter or manage endurance made the game awesome--no two heroes had exactly the same endurance management, and you could adapt it to your preferance.

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A literal ladder, or just a

A literal ladder, or just a lot of little lateral lines? >_> heh...

I like the potential of point 4 in Comicsluvr's proposal. Remember those complaints about AVs just acting like big bags of HP? Well, what if that AV could also be brought down by sufficiently draining their long-term endurance until they pass out? Alternately, what if they'd start losing HP faster when in this exhausted state - as a built-in effect of the exhaustion, or because their special AV defenses get detoggled (they wouldn't detoggle purely from low endurance)?

Maybe as Empyrean notes, simpler is better for the players' End bar, but this effect could still be applied to AVs or special trial mechanics as a way to avoid the traditional one-dimensional nature of AV fights decided entirely by HP.

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Most games I've played seem

Most games I've played seem to have an END regain out of combat, but require you to use your lesser powers to regain END in combat. Why not have In Combat END Recovery and Non-Combat END Recovery? Instead of getting X points back by using Power 1, get it back as X points per second.
This could then be buffed or rebuffed.
Rebuffing END recovery, if applied PvE to a Big Bad, would go some way to stopping the fight be a pure Hit Point reducer. It would also make END recovery rebuffs worth having really.
This could make it possible to stop a Boss Nuke before it lands, or at least stop it landing on you multiple times.
If you reduce/drain/steal END as well, then you should be able to simply leave your target unable to do anything other than be a punchbag.
(Unconsciousness at Zero END for Bad Guys anyone?)
Dunno if this is too simple, or unworkable. Just thought I'd throw it into the mix as a variant on what's been suggested already.

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Stupid predictive texting!

Stupid predictive texting! Rebuffed should be Debuffed. Didn't spot change until saved. D'oh!

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I would be careful from

I would be careful from deviating too much from CoH's approach. The last thing I would like to see is that players are forced to choose between doing their thing or sitting on the proverbial sidelines for a longer time, while their endurance recovers, or that a certain buff becomes mandatory due to the endurance regeneration boost. On the other end of the spectrum, as desviper described, it'd be nice to see that draining an enemy's endurance has some impact. Even if it only means that they're winded and can't do more than shamble around (either to run away or give chase), though they continue to attack normally.

For the pace CoH had, and that MWM is apparently striving for in CoT, I think it was enough that some power sets provided greater endurance recovery. With those sets or a kinetic about people could cut loose with greater impunity while others would, at least occasionally, have to pace their attacks lest they run out of steam.

Greywalker wrote:

[D]ebuffing END recovery, if applied PvE to a Big Bad, would go some way to stopping the fight be a pure Hit Point reducer. It would also make END recovery [d]ebuffs worth having really.

I am definitely a fan of allowing debuffers to have an effect on even AVs and giant monsters without needing to spam their debuffs on cooldown and hoping something sticks.

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One of the tough balance

One of the tough balance points especially for Bosses and on up is a snowball effect. One Controller/debuffer might be just short of have an effect on the Boss and two works great. Three and suddenly the debuffs are stacking and the fight becomes a joke. For a long time Rad was the bomb in CoH because of all the huge debuff potential. Two of them cut EBs down to nothing so the team could finish them off. We had 6 Rad debuffers standing next to a GM and I felt bad for HIM. He couldn't hit us and we danced merrily.

Maybe the defenses of Bosses and above should be a proportion instead of a flat number? So an EB has X defenses and the debuffer drains him by 20%. It's good but not overpowering. The next one takes off 20% of what's left and so on. This way 2-3 is a really good thing but each one added after about 4 will deliver much less return. Also, the target will always have SOME defenses/Resistance/whatever.

This prevents 5-6 debuffers from just rolling everything and promotes team diversity.

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One thing I liked about CoH

One thing I liked about CoH was that a single boss was a joke to a team of 3 anything, and was designed that way. Same with an EB against a team of any 5 players. AVs (sometimes multiple AVs) were the intended "tough fight" for a big team, and as such had significant defenses and very high debuff/mez resistances. Giant monsters did not typically have those debuff resistances, just high regen, which allowed them to be solo'd by certain powerset combinations. I think it's worth discussing what defenses GMs should have, and whether the AVs were appropriately tuned to give all debuff and control powersets a roughly fair way to contribute to such a fight. Obviously debuff powerset X won't be equally useful as debuff powerset Y in every scenario, but then that's true for every class - some tankers are stronger against one AV while others are better against a horde of bosses, and so on.

CoH team diversity was enhanced by allowing basically any combination of 5-8 players to win and have fun in the process. Were some combinations faster or safer? Sure, but all could succeed quite well in >95% of the content. Diminishing returns on adding debuffers to the team might also lead to diversity, but it seems more heavy-handed than necessary. The only times I saw team leaders being picky about inviting "the right AT" was when those team leaders were inexperienced, foolish, or needing very specific help to overcome a mission with special mechanics (e.g. controller for the Tuatha escape mission, two tanks for a team of level 35 newbies trying the ITF).

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Maybe the defenses of Bosses and above should be a proportion instead of a flat number? So an EB has X defenses and the debuffer drains him by 20%. It's good but not overpowering. The next one takes off 20% of what's left and so on. This way 2-3 is a really good thing but each one added after about 4 will deliver much less return. Also, the target will always have SOME defenses/Resistance/whatever.

I rather like the suggestion of some kind of diminishing returns. Whether or not these are heavy-handed depends entirely on how quickly and significantly the DR takes effect. On the one hand, I would like to see debuffers be able to influence the fight no matter what kind of opponent is being faced. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see any enemy that is a(n elite) boss or tougher become completely helpless. I think hitting the mark of making the enemy less dangerous, even considerably less dangerous, is an ample result.

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Multiplicitive stacking up

Multiplicitive stacking up buffs and debuffs is generally a better system than additive. If you had a sonic giving everyone +50% resistance in CoH, you didn't double the amount of damage the team could take. You increased it more if there were already resistance buffs, unless you put them over the resistance cap, in which case you did nothing. If you give a tank with 40% resistance a +50% resistance buff in an additive system, you just decreased the damage they take by a factor of 6. If another player gives them a +50% resistance buff, you either made them immune to damage (which happened in the beginning of CoH; I believe resistances were not capped at launch) or you have a resistance cap and the buff does nothing.

If instead, you multiply resistance buffs together, the effectiveness is unchanged; a tank with 40% resistance that gets a 50% resistance buff now takes half as much damage as they did before receiving the buff, with an effective resistance of 70% (vs. 90%). If they receive a second buff, they would halve their damage taken again, with an effective resistance of 85%. Each buff is equally effective at increasing survivability. You can do the same things with debuffs, so instead of having 3 debuffers each give an enemy -33% chance to hit, have the debuffs add and floor the enemy's tohit, you can have them multiply and the enemy ends up at 15% of their original tohit.