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The Magic of CoH, What was and could have been

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Cobalt Azurean
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Planet10 wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
I should mention that I meant (and I think so does Azurean--correct me if I'm wrong) "at endgame" in my previous post.
I'm perfectly content as a starting out/leveling hero paying my dues and face-planting to minions :P.
Correct! My namesake was a Nrg/Nrg blapper, so I six-slotted my face-planting power early on.
You six slotted Rest? :P
Yes, and Brawl. Didn't everyone make that classic mistake on their first character?
I think I put like 4 slots into Hover on my firs toon. I also deleted him before respecs were a thing. I also didn't bother to try to get anyone to hold his INF for me temporarily, so I just lost everything that toon had, which wasn't much. He was a weather/elec defender ad had ATROCIOUS endo problems.

Ha, that's funny. An Elec/Storm Controller was one of my [i]last[/i] characters. I never liked pets as I prefer to do all of my arresting myself, so if I was going to play a particular class for concept, I was going to make sure the pets weren't very involved. Kind of like... fire and forget. I wasn't entirely sure how effective he was going to be, but he could hold a BAF door by himself even without being fully T4 Incarnated.

Empyrean
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I always thought it would have been funny if the CoH Devs had hidden a secret proc attack with Brawl so that it did like a million HP damage and 1,000m KB but only against the final boss in super-long Trials. That way the power would be semi-useless for everything EXCEPT a final boss fight where it would be a super-secret instant one-shot killer. ;)

THIS... HAS... TO BE... IN... CITY... OF... TITANS!!!

I have spoken.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

harpospoke
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Planet10 wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
I should mention that I meant (and I think so does Azurean--correct me if I'm wrong) "at endgame" in my previous post.
I'm perfectly content as a starting out/leveling hero paying my dues and face-planting to minions :P.
Correct! My namesake was a Nrg/Nrg blapper, so I six-slotted my face-planting power early on.
You six slotted Rest? :P
Yes, and Brawl. Didn't everyone make that classic mistake on their first character?

Boy that brings back memories. I put extra slots in Sprint too.

Grimfox
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My second character was an

My second character was an Empath. But I played solo frequently and found it very difficult to level. So I slotted all the secondary powers and spent very little on the healing powers. I made a blas-der.

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Tannim222
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
As players, our ability to make or break our characters' builds with masteries and augments is up to us and will certainly result in disparity despite the developers' best efforts. But that part of the equation is up to us, and it should be.
My mains were freaking nuts. I worked hard for it and I loved it! Made me reallly feel like a Superhero. I would hope, as Huck implies, I can do this in CoT too :D.
This. And none of that Statesman business where a PC should be equal to three minions bullplop. We should be putting the SUPER in superhero and supervillain.

Realize that the 3 to 1 comparison is something that many games do, partciuarly pve games. It is a gearing ratio that forms the basis of the encounter system. That is to say, what is the minimum we can expect to occur? And it doesn't have to be a "hard rule" but a guideline of encounter design.

We have a gearing ratio too, one which takes your most basic pc, with no protections, and utilizes a single attack, and sets an expectation of what amount of time it takes to survive the encounter. This is called a combat loop.

Now, this doesn't mean a player will have a completely defensless character and choose to not use a single attack power (you will always have access to an artack power in your build). That's player choice. All the gearing ratio does is set a basic expectation. Then you can use this basic expectation to scale the encounters up with difficulty settings and / or group size.

On average, player characters will be able to surpass the basic combat loop expectations. Hence, even poorly built characters will end up being "super" in comparison to a pc using 1 basic attack power.

[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
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Lin Chiao Feng
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Technically, the Posi TF only needed eight to start and just about everyone else could log off or quit except for one other person besides the team leader. This allowed someone that didn't want to trudge through max scaled mob size to solo the TF, which was smart thinking on part of Cryptic. I never soloed it myself, but I do remember it being a thing for a while.

As a matter of fact, due to a mapserver crash, my very first Positron TF (during Issue 2) was exactly that. We did the first couple missions with a full team of 8 before the crash. Afterwards, it was just my blaster and another blaster. I even got stuck in terrain in Skyway, waiting for a GM to show up, while the other blaster ran a mission solo. (Either /stuck wasn't implemented or it didn't work.) Luckily, there was no AV-type boss at the end, just a mess of spawns, so we could peel them apart and get through it.

And there's no way

[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]

Lin Chiao Feng
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

That puts us squarely back at "Why can't I get a HamiO from soloing content? Why do I have to do a Hami Raid when I don't like group play?" to which the answer had been "Because harder content ought to exist in the first place, and the harder the content is, the better the rewards ought to be, out of a sense of fairness in terms of how much time and effort people have to spend in doing different types of content."

Well, speaking of fairness, the Evolution SG hoarded all the Hami spawns (this was before you could force spawn with a GM hunt) and just about cornered the market on HOs. Which is why you need to be careful about access restrictions.

"There's more than one way to do it."
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Lin Chiao Feng
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Jordan_yen wrote:
Jordan_yen wrote:

What do you think about not requiring TF grinding? For instance, perhaps the rewards could have been for doing various other mission arcs or challenges.

Redlynne and I would grind out a Hero/Villain Merit every weekend playing a really short Featured Episode. It would only award once a week. With those, you could get a lot of the recipes needed to fully IO out a build.

Grinding's OK so long as it doesn't get to the point that it feels like a full-time job.

[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]

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Yeah, but when you've got

Yeah, but when you've got like 6-8 alts who can all grind out the "quickie Merit" on a weekend, it doesn't take too long to start stockpiling the resources you'd need to completely respec a character. It got to the point where I could do a new build in Mids' and a month later I'd be finished with the necessary rebuild thanks to the stockpiling of Hero/Villain Merits to obtain hard (or stupidly expensive) to get stuff for the build.

The key is that you have to feel like you're enjoying playing while doing that, rather than turning it into an obligation that you "have to do" just in order to play the game. Star Trek Online turned itself into a Daily Grind JOB that was extremely alt unfriendly. When you can spend 90-120 minutes [i]per character[/i] just running "Daily Missions" for repeatable resources, that stops being a game to play and instead becomes a job to go to work at/for. You stop actually PLAYING the game and instead wind up just "working" for the game to keep farming Daily Missions every day. With 4 captains, I was spending 6-8 hours DAILY just on the repeatable Daily Missions and had no time to actually PLAY THE GAME and advance my characters through the storyline or anything else. It just turned into this giant treadmill of going nowhere to farm resources to no useful purpose. That's about as Alt Unfriendly as it gets.

[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
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Interdictor
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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Yeah, but when you've got like 6-8 alts who can all grind out the "quickie Merit" on a weekend, it doesn't take too long to start stockpiling the resources you'd need to completely respec a character. It got to the point where I could do a new build in Mids' and a month later I'd be finished with the necessary rebuild thanks to the stockpiling of Hero/Villain Merits to obtain hard (or stupidly expensive) to get stuff for the build.
The key is that you have to feel like you're enjoying playing while doing that, rather than turning it into an obligation that you "have to do" just in order to play the game. Star Trek Online turned itself into a Daily Grind JOB that was extremely alt unfriendly. When you can spend 90-120 minutes per character just running "Daily Missions" for repeatable resources, that stops being a game to play and instead becomes a job to go to work at/for. You stop actually PLAYING the game and instead wind up just "working" for the game to keep farming Daily Missions every day. With 4 captains, I was spending 6-8 hours DAILY just on the repeatable Daily Missions and had no time to actually PLAY THE GAME and advance my characters through the storyline or anything else. It just turned into this giant treadmill of going nowhere to farm resources to no useful purpose. That's about as Alt Unfriendly as it gets.

This is pretty much my experience in STO as well. It DID almost become a job. And the way characters and ships are designed does not help matters at all. Gameplay is not significantly different between a Tactical Captain in a T1 Escort and a Science Captain in a T6 Science Vessel. Every now and then I will get the itch to play the space combat and to check out the new content, but I take long breaks in between and really only have 3 characters.

Contrast that with CoH, where I had a couple dozen characters (and I know I'm a lightweight in that regard) at different levels. At least in CoH there was enough gameplay variety between the classes, and between the sets [I]within[/I] the classes, to make playing and levelling alts enjoyable, and less tedious than in some other games. The greater variety in content, at least in the later years, also helped with that as well.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Yeah, but when you've got like 6-8 alts who can all grind out the "quickie Merit" on a weekend, it doesn't take too long to start stockpiling the resources you'd need to completely respec a character. It got to the point where I could do a new build in Mids' and a month later I'd be finished with the necessary rebuild thanks to the stockpiling of Hero/Villain Merits to obtain hard (or stupidly expensive) to get stuff for the build.
The key is that you have to feel like you're enjoying playing while doing that, rather than turning it into an obligation that you "have to do" just in order to play the game. Star Trek Online turned itself into a Daily Grind JOB that was extremely alt unfriendly. When you can spend 90-120 minutes per character just running "Daily Missions" for repeatable resources, that stops being a game to play and instead becomes a job to go to work at/for. You stop actually PLAYING the game and instead wind up just "working" for the game to keep farming Daily Missions every day. With 4 captains, I was spending 6-8 hours DAILY just on the repeatable Daily Missions and had no time to actually PLAY THE GAME and advance my characters through the storyline or anything else. It just turned into this giant treadmill of going nowhere to farm resources to no useful purpose. That's about as Alt Unfriendly as it gets.
This is pretty much my experience in STO as well. It DID almost become a job. And the way characters and ships are designed does not help matters at all. Gameplay is not significantly different between a Tactical Captain in a T1 Escort and a Science Captain in a T6 Science Vessel. Every now and then I will get the itch to play the space combat and to check out the new content, but I take long breaks in between and really only have 3 characters.
Contrast that with CoH, where I had a couple dozen characters (and I know I'm a lightweight in that regard) at different levels. At least in CoH there was enough gameplay variety between the classes, and between the sets within the classes, to make playing and levelling alts enjoyable, and less tedious than in some other games. The greater variety in content, at least in the later years, also helped with that as well.

My experience as well. I finally just picked one toon in STO to be my main and that's it. The others I left at Starfleet Academy if I need to farm Doffs for my fleet.

In CoH, not only was there enough content to level several toons without playing the exact same missions in the same order, but many of my alts played differently enough that running the same mission often felt different.

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Radiac
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For me, it seemed like the

For me, it seemed like the "grinding for needed swag" part of CoX felt the most grindy when IO was soloing to level up toons. I think this is why I started doing more TFs early on than anything else because you could level and get some decent SO's (for defeating the Clockwork King!) by the time it was done. In addition, the fact that you had teammates to talk to most of the time and didn't have to click on every individual mob yourself to do the "defeat all" missions ,made it feel more enjoyable, for me. Even doing the respec trial for the billionth time felt more fun to me than soloing to level up a toon or soloing my MM through tip missions to get massive amounts of swag (including a Hero Merit every other day).

Also, beyond the teamup factor, which might just be me and people like me who like to hear themselves type, I think the gear/swag factor, the way CoX did it had a way of holding one's attention long-term. I never finished any of my toons to the point of having all rare or all purple in everything, and feel like it woul dhave been a reason to stop playing had I gotten any of them to that point. I had a lot of Uncommon sets in all of my toons. Especially the sets you could have like 5 copies of in your attacks etc. It felt like there was long-term room for improvement still, which is good in a game like this one. The more people complain about how long it takes to make and fully build out a toon, the more you ought to ignore them, I feel. That's what some of us keep playing the game for. I understand that having a lot of alts makes that an even bigger problem, but you can have alts and use the swag you generate to kit out your main first, then work on the alts like one at a time if you want. And no matter what, you can only play one alt at a time, so you know you can only generate swag at the rate of one character.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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