OK so what is the concept of loot?
One thing I really liked and enjoyed about CoH is that I didn't have to run over mid game/mid battle to loot "bodies".
It was easy, it was fair, it was clean, it was dispersed to everyone ...simple.
...I did not have to try to beat the "Loot Ninja"
...I did not get loot that was of a waste of an inventory slot.
...We did not have to wait for Cleric351 to finish comparing his loot.
...We don't have to stop mid play and think "Need or Greed" button.
Now I guess the new thing is to play a little "mini game" of 52 pick up when your loot explodes off its corpse and lands all over the map...yeah not fun :: stink eyes Marvel Heroes, Neverwinter Nights, Torchlight II ::
I read somewhere ..I think it was from Statesman something to the effect of We are heroes why would we loot?
So what is the concept of looting going to be for City of Titans?
I see no reason why the way looting's going to work in CoT wouldn't essentially be the same as it was in CoH. The annoying looting "mini-game" you describe might have a place in other games but I can't see them going that way here.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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I'm not connected with MWM and the Kickstarter I'll quote from the FAQ on the Kickstarter page, "No fighting over loot, no bind on pickup. There will be an auction house. Beyond that, we’re not ready to reveal the details of the crafting system yet because it is still a lot of “nice ideas” which needs to be prototyped and tested before we can give those answers."
CoH's looting system whilst very stress free was also *very* annoying, becuase if you had a full bag, you never got loot.
I'm not exactly sure why anyone would think that a character should be able to carry around an infinite number of anything but I acknowledge that bit of realism did bother some people like that. Maybe the Devs of the new game will at least give us some control over what we loot so that we only fill our limited inventories with the most rare/valuable things.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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I think the looting system could use some minor improvements, but I hate "bind of pick up" so I can deal with the minor inconvenience of needing to empty my bag from time to time in order to avoid it. I did not know how simple the CoH loot was until I played other mmorpg games. I will take simple over complicated for CoT any day.
CoH Player who is looking forward to moving to a new city...
I support this project because I have hope...
To be fair, "bind on pickup" loot in other MMORPG's is generally relegated to the very rare or special quest rewards (typically loot from final bosses in raids/dungeons is also BoP... but that is also the loot that is typically "need or greed" roll results.) Granted there are exceptions to this rule, but I have yet to find an MMO where most things that I looted was "bind on pickup".
Bind on Equip though, that is more common, although once still limited to a selection of gear (normally rare/very rare stuff that you loot),
And all that BoE or BoP did was prevent you from giving it to another player.. you could still sell it.
If an item is BoP it can nether be sold or traded in most MMORPG's. I don't have a problem wit BoE. Once I use an item it is ok to bind it to me. I would prefer it to be bound to my account so I can use it with my alts too, but I can deal with BoE. I don't like the BoP items even though they are high level stuff. This causes you to need to run the same mission over and over and over again to get the items you need. I am one who likes end game play; however, I also like building alts. The way CoH did it was great. The high level items could be sold or traded if I did not need them. Yes you got lucky sometimes and got one at the end of a Task Force run, but if you did not need that item, you could sell it in the auction house or use it on an alt. Being required to run the same mission 20 or thirty times to get the items I need and only allowing me to use it on that toon prevents me from having the time to build and enjoy alts. It is hard enough getting rare items. I like the option of buying it at an auction house if you have the credits to do so. At lease in CoH, the high end items were very expensive on the market and you still needed to play a lot to get them, the difference is you could play with any toon you had at level 50 and if you got an item you could send it to one of the other toons on your account. I did not need to play Major Flameman all the time. I could play with Mystical Healer or one of my other level 50 toons depending on the needs of the group or my mood for that day.
CoH Player who is looking forward to moving to a new city...
I support this project because I have hope...
The comments about not getting any loot when your 'bags' are full are a valid concern.
So what if my Salvage is full of crap Ill just dump on the ground? I should still be able to pick up the rare Impervium and drop the Clockwork Gear to make space.
Here is a basic idea on how the 'Item Pickup' could work.
Enemy is killed.
Window appears of the Item you are 'rewarded'.
You can either "Take" or "Drop".
If your bag is full you have to make space before "Take" will work and a message (inside the reward window) should display informing you of this.
If you Drop an item (either from the Reward Window or from your inventory) it can either be destroyed or appear on the ground for someone else to pickup.
This would work best for Salvage but less so for Insp/Enh (using CoH terms). Having only 4 Insp slots could get very annoying if you get Insp rewards on a regular basis. And same for Enh. With only 10 Enh slots (IF this is still used but for arguments sake lets say it is) this could also get filled fast.
However this could also lead to another sub-system that is accessible via the Store - Trash Pets - Pets that follow you but can be sent back to 'town' to sell your crap mid mission. This is not a new idea of course but could be quite welcome. Running the ITF getting lots of Salvage crap. Dump the crap on your mini-me and off they go selling. Can only be sent once every 5-10 mins.
Or a "Virtual Vendor" power that summons a virtual store for you to sell stuff to - again with a long recharge timer.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
We were talking about something along these lines, an 'overflow' bag which items that dropped (but you didn't have room for) would end up in. You can't access them except to move them to your inventory, so you would have to clean out the inventory first. Useful for when things drop in the middle of a fight and you don't want a 'take or drop' window popping up and blocking your view.
CoH's loot system was like many of Coh's mechanics, the first I encountered in an MMO, and every other game I tried afterwards left me irritTrd or in some cases appalled. 'Need or Greed', to my eyes, is astonishingly crap. I actually got yelled at for a while since I assumed that Greed was, well, greedy ie for choosing when I didn't need something but wanted it anyway, so being a nice chap I was picking Need all the time lol. As for BoP/BoE, I'd rather neither was in effect. I also don't want to be in a situation where if I get a Magical Beanie of Cthulhu, that means nobody else in my team can get one. IMO loot drop lists for my toon should be unconnected to other teammates chances of getting something, and I should be able to give whatever I get to anyone else if I want to. In TSW, I would go to noob zones to hand out cool gear as a 'hi noobs, here's something nice you may not be able to use, but you can sell it!', only to be embarrassed by 'er, sorry, it seems that the game won't let me. I'll just throw it away.'
I don't want to be in a competition with my teammates for drops.
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I'm not a fan of BoP/BoE either, never liked it, it restricts what you can do with an item and sometimes you'll get something you don't need and want to give it to someone, or you've outgrown it after using it and wish to get it someone else again. With BoP/BoE you can't do either and not having that helped give the community some of the strength it had as people could give things out freely without any boundaries
Depends on the MMORPG. In SWTOR, for example, it's a little squirrelly. Any equippable gear you select from an end-of-mission reward screen (i.e., weapon, armor, offhand widget, etc.) will be BoP. Custom (orange) and Artifact (purple) equippable items from drops in flashpoints, operations, heroic missions, and maybe warzones (PvP operations, which I haven't done) are all sort of BoP -- there is a delay on the binding so you can trade with another member of your team before they bind permanently to the character whose inventory they're in. All the other drops, including purple [b]components[/b] (i.e., mods you slot into custom gear) are BoE. More annoyingly, the high-end mods are [i]also[/i] slot-bound-on-equip -- if you slot a high-level mod into a custom [b]mainhand[/b] weapon, you can't take it out later and slot it into a custom [i]offhand[/i] weapon, or into a piece of custom armor.
When i meant sold, I meant "sold to an NPC", and not to another player. I have vendored *numerous* BoP/BoE items to an NPC, just not put it up in the Auction House. Sorry for any confusion there.
Granted, there are *some* items (in WoW for example) which not even vendors will take, but they are an exception and NOT the norm.
Account tradeable items are a benefit, no doubt about that, and it is something that I would expect CoT to have (either through NO BoP/BoE items full stop... although I think that BoE items will appear).
Hell, even CoX had BoE items for a LONG LONG time... enhancements. Well, they were not true BoE, but for the vast majority of the games life, the only way to sell an enhancement that you had slotted was to blow a respec to be able to unslot it.
Allow me to revise my statement a little. I should not have said I don't have a problem with BoE items. I should have said I can deal with BoE items. I like the idea of being able to give my unwanted or unneeded items to a lower level toon. I think that is part of being a hero. I HATE BoP item model and I don't like the BoE model. I hope the game uses nether of these but if it must let it be BoE only.
CoH Player who is looking forward to moving to a new city...
I support this project because I have hope...
I could live with the overflow bag idea because after all, this IS a game mechanic. You don't often see heroes carrying loot anyway so this is purely a player thing. If you have a magic portal you stash your stuff in until you can unload it that's fine for me.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
^ This. So much this.
I never understand why any games have that terrible need or greed system. CoX had it so right.
And if your inventories full, sell, use or bin some stuff. Though having said that having an overlarge inventory may be an idea - if the initial design thinks that an inventory of x spaces is enough, then try to give us all 2x. And if you can't cope with that, tough.
A superhero MMO shouldn't be trying to beat your team for goodies nor should it be inventory micro-management.
Hmmm... I wrote 'a superhero MMO'. Maybe if you play a villain it should be a 'greed or greed' roll.
By my mohawk shall ye know me
Personally, I like the way CoX did loot... automatically fell into your inventory, no picking stuff up or chasing after stuff to pick it up. It's pitfalls were:
1) limited inventory space - more so than other games, IMO. only 10 slots for enhancements, and later on we had some added for salvage... most games start you off with at least 24 spaces and that is expandable to 4x usually, if not more. CoX didn't have the option for more space until right before the end.
2) somewhat easy to lose track of inventory if you're a focused player.. no clear warning that stood out, at least for me. I got so used to the messages flashing up on the screen all the time... I often didn't even realize when the "inventory full" message would show in the center of the screen. When it was full, it just turned to red text too. Personally I'd like to see the inventory tab or whatever "pulse" with a border glow or something, fading in & out... getting bigger then smaller.. something that draws attention to it.
I'm sure there could be more added to it, but these 2 were my main qualms. Now if we could only tell inventory to do what my DVR does with excess shows when it's time to record again... Marking items with priority (rarity) will already... or should already be a part of the system, now take that and have options... if inventory is full and Very Rare item drops... auto-drop item of lower value and accept the new item. set the rarity you want auto deleted in options... up to Common, Uncommon etc.
Or at the very least... pop up a stupid box.. even with how much I dislike that happening, especially in the middle of a fight or something... and let me choose which item I want to keep/discard. Or have some kind of Inventory overflow option... make it hold X amount of items beyond normal storage capacity, but it will delete said items if you log out with them in the overflow.. maybe just to protect server disconnects etc, make it delete items if not removed from overflow within 24 hours or something.
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CEO of Phoenix Rising
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One of the things that SWTOR has done nicely is the way they handle 'outside' rewards. When your companions finish a crew mission for a gathering skill, or you turn in a mission, you get a pop-up window showing the results of the crew mission or the reward options for the mission turn-in. If you're busy -- i.e., in a fight -- there is a UI item that appears in the upper-right corner of your screen to show you have 'Pending' notifications, and you can click on this UI item to open them one at a time. You can also [b]close[/b] the pop-up window to put it [i]back[/i] into a pending status, which allows you to open your inventory and clean out space for the rewards if you need to before opening the pending notifications and claiming the rewards or from having no inventory space to put a reward you [i]really[/i] want when there was junk you could toss to make space.
You'd probably want to limit how long you could keep such a notification 'floating' to keep them from being used as additional 'storage', but doing something like this would prevent the problem of having notifications pop up in the middle of your screen during combat and blinding you to the action.
I feel like it might be a good idea to examine why we have limited inventory space in the first place. I don't think it is really any bigger of a stretch realism wise than the standard inventory size in many games. Depending on the number of different items available in the game it could start to cause data storage issues, but I feel like from a gameplay perspective inventory size management is just an unnecessary annoyance that doesn't really add anything.
I feel like city of heroes got it right with the way loot drops were handled; not having to click on things to loot and not having to worry about stealing someone's drop were definite improvements over many loot systems. I think keeping these features but removing the inventory size limits would be perfect.
The thing with unlimited inventory size is that you can just hoard every single drop you get. If you have a limited amount of stuff you can carry at a time, you have to choose what to take. You have to get rid of some of the excess, be it by simply deleting it, giving it to another player, selling it to a vendor, or putting it up for auction.
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Hell, just letting *stacks* of an item count as 1 item slot would be far better than how CoX did it (especially where salvage was concerned).
The Shield supports this.
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([i]Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative[/i])
One of the coolest things that happened to me early in the game was when I got "spammed" with a 50 SO as a lvl 10 toon, no more than two weeks into playing this game. I made sure that I payed it forward when I was a happy 50 ...
Also, to be fair, CoX DID have BoE -- once an enhancement was equipped, the only way to get it out was a respec token. Otherwise, you couldn't even sell it when you wanted to replace it.
Having said that, I much prefer CoX loot to any other system I've encountered ... and I HATE "Need or Greed". One time, before I understood that "Greed" was more fair to everyone than "Need" I actually got booted from a group because they thought I was being an ass, but really I was just racing through the event and "Need" was easier to hit than "Greed" (and my chat wasn't working, so I didn't find out until later that they'd been trying to talk to me about it).
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"YOU NEEDED!? WHAT?! I specifically stated that I required the Thermonuclear Gloves of Automaton to finish regearing! What on EARTH could you need them for?"
...
"Auction House? YOU'RE DOING WHAT?! NO! The Nightmare shall not stand for this! Hand them over right now before I gut you like a pig and smear your remains over that boulder."
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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Quoted myself from another thread.
As for picking up gear.. I really want the loot drops to be rare.. like one piece of loot per every hour of gameplay. I also want it automatically appear in my inventory. No bind on pickup.. only on equip. With loot being so easily tradable I want it the good stuff to be truly rare.
You can get GREAT loot quickly with coordination and socialization.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I liked how you could access the auction house remotely through a window interface with a command in the last issues of CoH. That way you could drop off enhancements, salvage on the fly as it were without having to fly/speed/jump/tp to the nearest auction house.
"I am a dancer, a leaf in the wind...a leaf that can kick your butt!"
Shame that was a vet reward....
Because the Need or Greed system is what keeps a lot of people playing. It's also why you'd see such things as "Only need one tank in the group, and that's going to be me, so I CAN NEED if my gear drops!"
As to the topic at hand...never saw anything wrong with BoE. Don't care to much for BoP, not because I need to tweak my lower level alts, but what if a member of the team could use the item more?
Of course, BoP tends to be rare loot obtained on team content, and as such, TOR did it right with the ability to trade it to team members.
I just hate the Need or Greed system, because (while I haven't done this myself :p) I can see people saying "I NEED this item for my other character" or in TOR's case "I NEED this item for my crew member!" but then TOR was very much a single player game when it came to PvE leveling quests.
And then there's Star Trek Online where everyone just defaults to Need because no one is using Greed AT ALL due to the fact that even if you can't use something, you can always Vendor it or dump it on the auction house (no listing fees!) and turn a profit from it.
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People can do the same in TOR and do so. It's only community standards which stops it from being the norm. I NEED it because I NEED to sell it for additional credits!
Needing of additional credits does seem like a need to me.
When people hit need on an item they couldn't use, it only bothered me (myself) when they had no way of actually using it.
"I need it for my companion!" might have worked, except they'd need it for a companion they didn't have yet, and would have better gear by that time. :p
I'd say it's more of a community standard in the MMO, and it seems in STO their standards are low.
In some cases griefing is what keeps people playing. I certainly don't want to encourage THAT kind of behavior. Please don't use vague terms like 'a lot' because none of us have ANY idea how many that really is.
If you feel a certain way, speak for yourself and yourself only please.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
1) A lot doesn't mean all.
2) I'm pretty sure you were one of the ones who said "CoH was like this, and that's what we want, don't change it, keep CoT like that CoH because that's what /we all/ want." When, ya know, not everyone interested in CoT played CoH (I did, but not everyone who's looking forward to CoT).
When both you, me and everyone else, should realize that what we hope CoT may be like, could be totally different? We can't even all agree on what Spiritual Successor entails and judging from some dev comments, neither can they. :p
A perfectly valid point. However with the 'Spiritual Successor' label all over it thinking that this was going to be a whole new experience might be a disappointment for you. Kinda like going to a baseball game and being pissed because it's not football.
My background is in Quality Assurance and ISO 9000 manufacturing standards. Years of working with these have led me to a mentality that favors small tweaks rather than wholesale slash and burn changes. If a part is being made wrong, adjust the machine making it...a little...until it's right. That's why I posted a thread about Dev Tools to monitor the game's performance.
What would I do if I were in charge of TPP? I'd dissect CoX, lay it out on the table and examine it closely. Why? Because with all its faults it worked. Would I keep it all? Hell no. I ranted for the entire time I played about how certain aspects of the game could be better. I would look closely at the parts of the game that worked well and keep them or something so close as to not matter much. Now IF we figured out how to do it better without burning it down I'd look into that. However I'm not going to go wandering off into flights of fancy for it. The bent parts I would fix or replace with something new. The broken pieces (the ones that likely should never have been) I would toss right away and start looking for a solution.
Put it another way: If I build a house it's going to be MY house, designed MY way and with the features I want. However I'm going to use the experience of others who have built houses before me to help with that design. (I want a wall like THIS. 'Um...dude? I tried that and it fell down because of X'.) We often do things this way so we don't have to keep reinventing the wheel every time we make something. Maybe I want a house standing upside-down. Nope...I'll rethink that idea because someone tried it and it didn't work.
Am I stuck on the idea of the CoX successor? Maybe I am. Would I change a bunch of stuff? Sure I would. But I would change it because it NEEDED changing...not just because I want to dash out and try something new just because it's new. I don't impulse-buy stuff for that reason.
I consider the idea of simply sitting down and creating a whole new game with no connection to what we enjoyed before to be speculative and unnecessarily risky. DCUO did it and many players hated it. CO did it and it gets slammed all the time by former CoX players. I would have more faith in something that incorporated the best of what we had before plus racing slicks, tinted windows, a faster motor and a better sound system.
I want a better car than what we had...not a spaceship that I might not like. I'm old...we can be funny that way. If this doesn't work for you then one of us will be disappointed. However I'm speaking for what I want...not any part of the player base.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
As a player who loved CoH, even when I said I thought something could be improved in such and such a way, I doubt very much I'll be disappointed. In fact my biggest complaint about CoH was I couldn't have something akin to a Martial Artist with Dual pistols who was dodgey and regeny (I could get Martial Arts/Dodgey/Regenny and I could get Dual Pistols/Dodgey/Regenny though). Which I thought was a simple fix by taking some of the attacks from Powersets and making them Power Pools for other ATs or Epic Pools.
I'm not sure everything people have been suggesting is asking for it because it's new. I don't vote for TERA style combat because it's new. I vote for it because I found it quite fun. But I'm also able to stick with tab target. Most important part for me is ANIMATIONS! I want to do decent damage as a DPSer and have OMG WOW animations!
In a video Redlynne posted about MMO Combat, it basically said what I wanted...IMPACT! I want IMPACT AND PRETTY! Of course, both are pretty subjective, with the former less so.
I'd argue though, that DCUO failed because it didn't allow you to make the character you wanted. Seriously, they have no physical defense sets. DCUO basically says you're some sort of element (Fire, Cold, Psi, Earth, Plant, Gadgets)...in a world filled with Invunerability and super reflexes. o.O
I'd put CO's biggest failure on their day one nerfs :p All downhill after that one. Nevermind that it looked more Saturday morning cartoony, nevermind people didn't know how to get rid of the comic outline, giant day one nerf is what drove a lot of people away at the start and they never recovered even if it has improved (it has) since day one in a lot of ways.
And like you, I'm in QA too. That means sometimes you do make big changes to things when no one was buying it before (or just can it). How many players did CoH have before it went F2P? After? How many were dedicated players?
Let's go with 20k dedicated subbers. Is that enough for CoT? Is that enough to keep the game online? It's great they plan to make it so if the game doesn't make it as a MMO we can continue to play it solo, but some of us want the MMO aspect of it. 20k to start and keep 50% of them after the first month...is 10k enough?
I think something akin to CoH's IO enhancement system and a global enhancement system (akin to Incanate system, but without having to be some cosmic level hero now) is a great thing to do with CoT. I think an IO enhancement system and global enhancement system will feel very much like gear to players who didn't play CoH or didn't play CoH when the IOs came out.
I think a different aesthetic will go a long way as well (I don't agree with realistic) but I couldn't tell you which would do best in a MMO setting, I can only say something akin to TERA, Final Fantasy XIV or some comic artists who's style I like, would be considered an improvement (and I liked CoH's aesthetics...even the mitten hands!)
As for the loot system. Eh, I'd worry less about that and more on a crafting system. Crafting is what a lot of MMO players consider fun, but it has to be worth it and not just a credit sink. TOR's crafting isn't worth it and TERA's felt like a cred sink with a chance to screw it all up and take a huge loss.
In terms of the subscribers, the numbers that I have seen flying around are:
Post Freedom Launch (around time of closure announcement, if not a couple months before hand)
40K subscribers
20K "Premium" players (former subscribers or F2P'ers who spent money)
40K F2P'ers (never spent money on the game)
Pre Freedom: If i remember correctly, the number commonly thrown around was around 55K-60K players (only derived by looking at the NCSoft financials).
I agree especially with regards to loot vs crafting. I try to peel back the layers on stuff to see what REALLY matters. In some cases it IS the animations...the overall effect of the power. Ever watch one of those 'how we made the movie' things? They show a scene with no music/foley versus the final cut and wow...such a difference.
I'm still undecided as to gear but if it's presented in context then that's different (in CO my Mystical guy would never wear a suit of armor but magical amulets of protection are fair game). I definitely don't want gear that changes your appearance though. One of the things players often praised in CoX was the fact that the 3' girl with fairy wings could have any powers she wanted. That was why Granite was such a downer.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I loathe and detest other mmo's loot systems.
Very glad that the MWM folks are not going that route.
I doubt CoT will have gear that changes ones appearance. And CO's gear doesn't change appearance, it's really just global enhancements given glove/armor/helmet icon pics and names. It's really just an OOC mechanic for buffing powers (much like Enhancements...which I hated them making IC and referencing them IC with the NPCs...ruins my comic book immersion to no end).
I liked the COX system, had no issues finding a store from keeping my inventory filled up, it was very easy to build up money in the game since everything you defeated gave you money, and at lvl 50 you got nothing but money and drops. I have been playing Aion for the past year and hate it but the character generator,that's ok, but the loot system sucks, they just redid it to where you don't get as much(Kina) gold as you were getting, hate the BOP and BOE, and what is up on the need or greed crap. It seems that the majority is rude and unless you were in their clique they wont team with you. I have seen several times LFG no noobs must be geared. As for as DC universe, love the world and the travel animations, hate the character builder, unless you where a full mask the ere is only 5 face choices to choose from and its hard to figure out if you have never done it before. Hate that it only goes to lvl 30 and then you haft to grind yourself through the same missions to get good gear.
What? You mean that your ability to swoop in out of nowhere and roflstomp someone no less than twenty levels lower than you are (can't attack someone close to your level; they might have a chance to defeat you) [b]isn't[/b] the sole consideration defining you as a "leet" gamer?