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Hmm, so you're proposing, instead of an instance, to stage the thing on an offshore island full of destructible terrain?
Yes, that might be fun. Perhaps as a seasonal event, for 'Summer Blockbuster' season?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Takes a lotta wind but Reds right..
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Depends. All sorts of things could happen.
If the city really was made of destructible terrain, the giant monster could potentially come ashore and start wreaking havoc, destroying every building it touches, causing panic in the streets and evacuations.
Alternatively, a second giant robot could be deployed, to continue the fight, giving the PCs "another chance" to Make A Difference.
Shore battery cannons and missiles could open fire, driving the giant monster back (but without defeating it) so it'll return faster than if it had been defeated (basically a shorter event cooldown time versus a longer cooldown time). Say ... 26 hours if the giant monster gets defeated, but only 13 hours if the giant monster "wins" but winds up retreating anyway.
The answer to your question really depends on how complicated the tech for City of Heroes could be made to be in order to support a Giant Monster Wins scenario that results in that giant monster advancing on the city. If MWM has the tech to let the monster go full on "Godzilla Mode" against Titan City, I'd say go for it! If they don't (and I'd presume that they won't) then something else will have to be worked out in situations where the giant monster wins the event. The one outcome that I wouldn't want to see happen is having the giant monster just simply SIT THERE, doing nothing, waiting for the PCs to come out and deliver a (sufficient) beatdown to defeat the giant monster, like Lusca was prone to doing in Independence Port.
Since I don't know what MWM would be capable of doing in this regard, I can give you a Pie In The Sky answer, but I can't give you a definitive one. I can point to a menu of options, but I can't tell you which of those will be feasible.
Really?
You want to know why you can't solo a giant monster EVENT?
[img]http://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/godzilla-facepalm.png[/img]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
What are you talking about? What team?
Not wanting to be a sidekick is why we can't have nice things? Nice things like what? Like babysitting a giant robot?
How is one a villain for wanting to be the protagonist of a game they play?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I could have simply replied, "Because I said so!" ... but I've never found that to be a very persuasive argument, particularly when making proposals in which the point is to persuade rather than to demand.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Perhaps we just aren’t thinking in the same terms.
I tend to think of such a monster or robot as an epic foe which requires (generally) a group to contend with if for no other reason sheer scale however I do recall a certain cosmic bestowed hero that raised up against his creator of Epic proportions being a world devourer and he did so more or less all alone. Of course his results are far from defeating the enemy but still a battle in line with your view I think.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
So nothing happens if the monster wins.
Heroes, plural. As in more than one? As in why do we need a giant robot when we have a crap ton of Superheroes around? Never ever suggested that anyone would be able to solo it.
If you want a giant monster fighting game I can give you some recommendations, but I don't want to be a bystander in the game I play.
Like, remember the Godzilla movie? The newest US one? You're essentially being like "Hey, remember the military guy from that movie? The most boring and superfluous part of that movie? You can be that!"
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Hmmm. Comprehension seems to be inadequate. What did I write back in [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/144358#comment-144358]post 82[/url]? Let's review shall we?
Plural ...
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Plural ...
Need I continue?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
[img]https://media2.giphy.com/media/2dJ5Iait4QrW8/giphy.gif[/img]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Nope, you've beat it to death, Red.
And it seems like what your scenario requires is that heroes quit doing what they're doing to go 'help out' in a scenario where they are, relatively, unimportant and ineffectual. Rendered 'infantry gnats' by the scale of the encounter you envision. Sounds boring to me.
Be Well!
Fireheart
And I was talking about a TEAM of heroes without the giant robot on their side. So who's reading comprehension needs work?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Exactly the point I was trying to make. I'd just rather fight the giant monster without having to babysit an NPC.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I love me some giant monster encounters, stuff that requires teamwork with other PCs. I was literally [i]the[/i] giant monster guy to the point that someone on my server wrote an ode to it on our forums. But side-saddle to someone else's rodeo? Midget-car to someone else's choppa? Another analogous example that makes my point with dramatic and stirring imagery? No thanks, I'm good. I wouldn't want to run a Hami Raid to just have States show up and one-shot the jello at the end.
Maybe just have the supers arrive and get empowered to form a giant fighting robot ala Voltron, as in during the Kaiju attack, some underground lair is revealed with dormant machines inside that the supers utilize to fight monster. Or they find amulets that make them giant too, get all Ultraman-ed. There's any number of ways to keep with the Kaiju theme, and include the supers in a contributive way that could even touch on other tropes, but that doesn't reduce them to being support. I might even have suggested having them pilot a Jaeger-style robot but that, to me personally, would take away them using their powers to defeat the monster, which is what I feel is why many people are playing a superhero game. I understand that it's a very themed-event, but doesn't appear to contribute to the general feel or purpose of the game.
But that's just my .02.
Either you particpate in the Event ... or you don't.
If you're going to go raid the Hamidon, the Players have to quit whatever they were doing and go "help out" with defeating the Hamidon.
If you're going to defeat the Ghosts spilling off the Moiraine as is sails through Independence Port or Talos Island, the Players have to quit whatever they were doing to go "help out" with mopping up the Ghosts that are getting left everywhere.
If you're going to stop the Rikti Bombs that are dropping all over the zone, the Players have to quit whatever they were doing to "help out" with mopping up the bombs that are dropping in the streets.
I am hard pressed to think of a single open world Event that took place in City of Heroes where the design assumption and intent was that Players ignore the Event entirely as if it weren't happening at all.
Yes, some of the Events were timed, such that if they weren't cleared within a certain window of time, the Event would simply end and everyone (in that zone) could get back to whatever they were doing before the Event started. That's typically what happened with most of the Rikti Invasion and Zombie Apocalypse Events (among others). Some people FLOCKED to the Event zone(s), while others fled from the Event zone(s) to get away from the Event.
I mean ... what kind of a world Event DOESN'T ask Players to alter their behavior in order to participate in the Event?
Okay, let me get this straight, because this is important.
If you're DIRECTLY responsible for victory, that's exciting.
If you're INDIRECTLY responsible for victory, that's boring.
If you, and everyone else participating in an open world Event is COLLECTIVELY responsible for victory, that's boring too.
Remember, I set up the parameters for victory against the giant monster as being that the participation of the PCs [b][i]was the deciding factor[/i][/b] ... and you're saying that would be boring to play. The PCs weren't playing second fiddle in the battle I was describing, they were the lynchpin to victory [i]as part of a team up between PCs and a single (giant robot) NPC[/i].
Together we stand.
Divided we fall.
PCs can't do it alone.
NPC can't do it alone.
But PCs joining forces with the giant robot NPC [b]CAN WIN[/b] against a giant monster that otherwise couldn't be defeated.
You look at that dynamic and figure that your contribution to the overall effort is meaningless, even when you're contributing to the difference between victory and defeat.
Um ... selfish/self-centered much?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Good thing then that I'm proposing nothing of the sort.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That's true. You didn't specifically say that Statesman would show up, being illegal and all to use another IP without permission, but generally meets the criteria of someone else (e.g. the Jaeger) doing the heavy lifting, which I'm suggesting isn't what people usually want in a superhero game.
I don't think anyone is saying that a collective victory (with just PCs) is boring.
People don't want to flit about while the NPC does the cool thing is all.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
[h2]Giant Robot Saves The Day![/h2]
Some Titans Were There, Too
Be Well!
Fireheart
I was objecting to the insinuation of the one-shot at the end. That is a flat out mischaracterization on multiple levels.
At the risk of inflicting blunt force trauma to permit enlightenment ... the "someone else" can only DO the heavy lifting [b]BECAUSE YOU'RE HELPING[/b]. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you to get your head around. It's called, um ... teamwork ... I think. Your PC's actions are not meaningless. They would have efficacy. But the effect is [i]indirect and collective[/i], because ... Open World Event ... where the anticipated participation rate is higher than just 8 PCs. The more PCs participate, the more efficacious their collective efforts are.
The PCs [b][i]create the vulnerabilities[/i][/b] that the allied NPC then exploits ... REPEATEDLY ... to deliver the beatdown over the course of the ENTIRE battle duration (however long that takes).
Without those vulnerabilities being created, the end result is failure.
With those vulnerabilities being created, the end result is success.
Who holds the keys to success or failure? The PCs who participate in the Event.
Key word ... PARTICIPATE.
Not spectate ... participate.
Are your PERSONAL actions the absolute deciding factor at every moment during the event? Probably not.
Do your personal actions help contribute to the outcome of the event? Certainly! Every little bit helps.
But hey, if being a part of something bigger than yourself, and contributing to something beyond yourself, just isn't in your personal interests ... you can be one of the spectators watching everything from a safe distance on the shoreline, or better yet, ignoring the event entirely and not bothering to play it while other people have fun playing it in your absence.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
[img]http://sudantelecentreacademy.org/img/engineering-jokes-glass-half-empty.gif[/img]
Seriously, the headline could just as easily be:
So, the question then becomes ... half empty, or half full ... rather than completely empty or completely full.
But I get it. Some people won't accept half a loaf unless they get another entire loaf in compensation for the mere half they were given.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Nah, you were right the first time, it's all about Me! I want to be the one that matters. I want to be the one that tanked the Kaiju.
Or blasted it. Or Scrapper-locked on it. Or controlled it. Or kept everyone else from dying while we fought it.
I want me and my team to be Important, Critical even. I don't want there to be any question at all if it was the Titans or the stupid faceless NPC drone that won the day.
Maybe I'm selfish that way.
Forget about whether the glass is half-empty or half-full, it's MY glass and MY water and I wanna drink it all.
Be Well!
Fireheart
At this point in the discussion, the possibility cannot be discounted.
But snark aside, how FUN such a battle would be would depend on some factors that I really can't explain adequately in a text forum. It really would have to be proven out by actual gameplay. I mean, I [b][i]KNOW[/i][/b] how something like this could be made to be really fun to play and participate in, but there would need to be a lot of tuning and playtesting work done to get everything working properly. It would essentially require what amounts to a shakedown to get it where it needs to be for any kind of a release. Worst of all, I have the feeling that the only way to convince people on the subject would be to let them PLAY it ... and I can hardly do that through the text formatting of a forum post, now can I?
So for me, it's a fun Blue Sky thought experiment in the glorious tradition of [b][i]What If?[/i][/b]
Color me shocked that there is a contingent of [b]LET'S NOT[/b] that reflexively manifested itself in the face of any proposal.
Of course, I find it ironic that some of the same people who are tired of being railroaded into storylines of being "the chosen one destined to {insert plot hole here}" like we get in so many MMORPGs have so little tolerance for letting anyone other than themselves share the spotlight, even for moment in a world event in which, by definition, participation is meant to be en masse by dozens of PCs rather than solo MVP ... once again proving that you're never going to please everyone.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I suppose I might be reacting this way too if it seemed like a bunch of people were attacking my idea, and therefore felt compelled to do the same. And it's certainly in the vast realm of possiblity that you aren't reacting and therefore posting defensively, but it very much seems that way. I didn't wade into this thread with the intent to poke holes in your idea and I'm not looking for a fight while you seem to be lashing out against anyone that doesn't wholesale embrace your idea. I was merely contributing my perspective, and simply because it doesn't line up with yours doesn't make it wrong.
The "You are the chosen one" thing in MMOs is dumb because then who are all these other people running around doing the same thing I am? The chosen one narrative doesn't work well in an MMO formula.
The giant vs giant fight with heroes helping doesn't gel with the super hero narrative because if I make a character who is like Superman or Thor... Why is my hero only there to aid one giant thing and not uppercut the enemy giant monster on the chin knocking him over? Essentially this format says "Well, your hero might be great and all... But this robot is better/more important. A group of superheroes using their own strengths and abilities can't win this fight! You -NEED- this NPC to win!" Screw that, I'm a superhero! I'll grab some super buddies and we'll take care of it. Leave the robot in the garage, save the tax payer's money.
Covering an NPC while they do a task is fine, because presumably the PCs are better at fighting enemies than the NPC, even if said PCs could perform the task the NPC does as well or better.
But to have two NPCs duking it out and your hero is just there to be backup to the NPC is lame no matter how necessary you are.
I feel the same way towards boss fights where you have to do some dumb gimmicky crap to win cause the NPC just becomes invulnerable or whatever. Just let me punch the bad guy.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
There is a variant to the giant monster battle that might work better.
The robot is or carries a macGuffin. The player characters have to fight the giant monster until the macGuffin is ready or makes its slow way to you.
examples:[list]
[*]The robot could be or carry a potential mate or kidnapped baby that we need to return to the monster.
[*]The robot could be a huge rocket that is able to grab a hold of the monster and fly it off the planet.
[*]The robot could contain an enormous amount of a particular substance that is the only known substance that can prevent the monster from regenerating and the robot is covered in hoses that some characters can stop their delaying action to use while others continue to fight it
[/list]
These are the ideas I came up with in the time it took me to write this. I'm sure a concentrated design effort could come up with even better ideas.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I get it, I get it ... "Big monster!"
[youtube]i-f30yIArWY[/youtube]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I absolutely love the idea of a rampaging Mount Lady needing to be stopped by the heroes
Issue 0 CoH player barely let my subscription lapse before NC Soft called it quits; my incarnate gear *Sniff*
Global: Chance Jackson; Triumph: Liege Cheetatron X, Fight of Your Life, Down Right Fierce, Infernal Samurai, Time May Change Me etc
For those who aren't familiar with the reference ...
[youtube]XQ0URR3Caoc[/youtube] [youtube]Je0fLd9xGuE[/youtube]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So could the difference between the color of her skin and the "whitish" parts of her skin-tight outfit be any more "conveniently identical"? ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think you could quite easily re-write Redlynne's event script and replace the NPC Jeager or giant robot character with a group of PCs. Though I think Red's primary goal is "Giant Mecha fights."
Let's modify Reds script a little less drastically instead of removing the GR completely, It's driven by a weak AI but can be piloted by a human (a much smarter AI, ostensibly) So any hero can come along and pilot that GR but it takes a lot of energy due to the neural link or whatever story fluff you want. So without some sort of energy boost (GR attacks don't generate momentum for the character so it can't be converted to reserves and used as a stream of energy) or support team the pilot passes out and is stunned and ejected from the robot every couple minutes, where they get trampled. Now there are two ways to fight the Kaiju. Let the AI duke it out as best it can and have a team fight at weak points or if your team is more support oriented keep the pilot alive and awake. And if you happen to have a team of each. Well...now the kaiju is gonna have a bad time. Bonus points for letting the whole support team in the cockpit alla PR and numerous other Sentai type shows.
In a story I wrote a coven of witches summon a great red dragon to fight off some aliens. Does Great Red Dragon make the list for required GMs? I hope so. Similarly a Chinese Ghost dragon was also summoned in my story. The Red dragon did well but wasn't aware of the effects of the giant laser attached to their mothership, and the Dragon turned itself into a giant laser discoball...then exploded. Moral of the story train your angry red dragon before summoning them to fight aliens. I believe they made a movie about this. I haven't watched it but I recall the title.
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I'll still pass on piloting a giant robot. Anything that takes away from the powers and abilities my character has is a hard pass from me.
Being able to become super sized, awesome.
I wonder if that could work as a PvP thing. Kinda like juggernaut modes in FPS games. PvP starts then the first person to get a kill becomes giant sized with increased damage, HP, and AoEs on their attacks, other PvP players have to work together to take them down, then whoever gets the kill becomes the new giant! If the giant d/c's or logs out or what have you then it'd go to whoever gets the next kill.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I'd say less Mountain Lady, more Gogo Bomango's Gogojira form.
[img]https://pre00.deviantart.net/4327/th/pre/i/2016/283/6/a/commission__gigas_dance_by_vanheist-dakj8hz.jpg[/img]
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Attack of the 50 foot Woman, and Giganta justify the use of a giant human attacking the city.
Players may never get the giant size power, but it would be EASY for the devs to make a giant size human villain. In fact, Comics culture [u]demands[/u] a giant villain.
With the gals getting the lion's share of giant powers, it shouldn't be all that hard to make a tribute villainess.
All we need now is a name.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Twin Peaks.
Guess what the name is referring to.
Go on ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
ummmmm...a hit TV show?
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
I wanted to let this sit for a couple of days, rather than replying instantly.
Agreed. [b]You Are The Chosen One[/b] [i]{insert number here}[/i] is a ridiculous thing narratively speaking, when it applies to EVERY PC IN THE WORLD.
Because in a world event with up to 50 or so PCs participating ... how [i]"Special"[/i] do you think you are, Snowflake?
The simple fact of the matter is that when you've got a world event [i]designed for[/i] up to 50 PCs participating, no (The) [b][i]ONE™[/i][/b] PC is design intended to stand out more than anyone else participating in the event. In other words, everyone is supposed to get a piece of the (action) pie, in reasonably equitable measures.
Take a look at what you're asking for. In a battle where your personal contribution to victory is expected to be 5% of the overall total or less in a world event, why are you expecting to be THE CHOSEN ONE™ for the fight ... especially after just saying (and I agree with you) that designing [b]You Are The Chosen One[/b] content is both foolish and a mistake in an MMORPG context.
The key here is that I have the sense that you're not appreciating the sheer numbers of PCs that can be involved in an event like this. If it was only one Team (of 8) ... okay, asking you to clear the way for an NPC to do the business probably wouldn't feel so good (I mean, we all hate Escort Quests, right?). When it's two Teams (of 8 each) who need to coordinate in order to pull off a win, the dynamic begins to shift. That's because as the number of participants goes up, the individual "share" of contributions goes down. Once you get to three Teams (of 8 each), you're looking at individual contributions of around 5% or less each to the overall victory. When you get to truly "mass" combat situations, like world events can become, with some 50 PCs participating, expecting your personal PC to be so important as to effectively sideline [i]every other PC participating[/i] into NPC status so as to allow you personally to hog the spotlight for yourself gets to be pretty darn unreasonable. At that point, you're claiming/demanding the role of THE CHOSEN ONE™ in the world event, while denying that right to anyone else (up to 50 other people) participating in the event.
To my mind, that insistence of being more [i]"Special"[/i] than everyone else in a world event ... at the game design level ... is a combination of selfish narcissism and hubris.
I say that because any world event that needs to account for the actions of up to 50 PCs is necessarily going to have to be designed as a [i]collective endeavor[/i], rather than as a showboat opportunity for a single MVP PC to swagger around like they own the world (even if they are a Villain and technically do). From a game design standpoint, that means that potential mass combat encounters like a world event which can have a LOT of PCs participating, at the game design level, the PCs need to be treated both narratively and developmentally as more of a +1 than as an ONLY ONE. You're basically setting up an "ensemble combat" where everyone pitches in to do their thing and contribute what they can to the overall, collective outcome. And it's in THAT context that I think it's perfectly reasonable to channel the collective effort of every PC through the "medium" (if you will) of an NPC that gives the encounter both Form and Flow when designing a [i]Death By A Thousand Cuts[/i] type of scenario like I've presented (and you've emphatically said you want no part of) where no ONE attack is decisive, but the overall EFFORT of all of the participants would be the deciding factor in determining the collective outcome. Basically a difference between a "team" effort and an individual one. Are you a Team Player? From everything you've said so far, the question needs to be asked.
I was simply looking for a way to turn what would ordinarily be a 1 versus 1 combat into a 1 plus MANY versus 1 combat, in which the participating PCs were the "many" AND were the deciding factor in the outcome and wouldn't have to give up their established (and enduring) identities as supers in order to be shoehorned into the encounter.
But, you want to be THE ONE™ in the spotlight of a world event which could have up to 50 people participating in it while at the same time not wanting the game to make you THE ONE™ because that's stupid for an MMORPG.
Good luck with that ... er ... ONE.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Again you misunderstood my point. Yes, I am a team player. I want a team of heroes to fight a giant creature un-aided by NPCs. I do not consider NPCs to be part of the team.
Why is the ally NPC necessary?
Are the heroes not supposed to be super?
Why do the supers require the aid of the NPC?
Is the NPC stronger than x number of heroes?
If such a world can produce such powerful NPCs to be allies then why are the PCs even there?
The point is, if we're making demigods why do they get upstaged by an ally NPC? Yeah, the PCs are helping but the giant robot would be the one doing all the coolest stuff. And if I wanted to watch a giant monster fight another, there's a ton of movies for that.
Again you're asking people to be the boring military man from the newest US Godzilla movie. Sure he does "important" stuff but all people want to see is the giant monster fight.
NPCs should be back up to the PCs not the other way around.
Like can you imagine a super hero movie where you follow the hero as they grow into a top notch super hero movie only to have the climax of the film be them helping some other character do the cool thing? Like if in Batman v Superman (terrible movie already, I know, bare with me) freeking doomsday shows up and then the military drops down a freeking robot and then was like "Ok, you two, just like give us some openings so we can take care of it!"
The heroes, the PCs, should be at the fore front. Having to share a spotlight with other PCs, great. Having to share a spotlight with an NPC, lame.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Found the disconnect.
As far as you're concerned, NPCs are second class citizens, who have no business stealing your thunder.
I don't subscribe to this view. Everything else flows from there.
Right back at'cha ... why is your PC necessary for the task at hand in an open world event?
You're really trying to get me to do another /em facepalm in response to your provocative obtuseness.
The PCs are just as super as they've always been. The difference is that in the scenario I've been at pains to construct, the PCs are [i]the wrong scale[/i] for the task at hand.
Nice straw man you've got going there. Shall we continue?
Wrong question.
The NPC requires the aid of the super PCs. Depending on your perspective, they need each other, so as to achieve together what they can't achieve separately. It's called "teamwork" ...
Again, wrong question.
It's not a matter of "stronger" the way you're formulating it, it's a matter of Right Tool For The Job. Hammers make lousy screwdrivers. You keep looking at everything as if it was a nail, while ignoring the possibility that something might not be a nail that needs a hammer, but instead a screw that needs a screwdriver. You keep reaching for the ONE TOOL you want to use for every job, rather than having a variety of tools for a variety of jobs.
[youtube]v79fYnuVzdI[/youtube]
Again ... wrong question. See the previous answer for why.
Uh ... demigods? Um ... I don't know how to break it to you, but I sincerely doubt our PCs are going to be on demigod level at Level 30 ... or even at Level 40. Heck, it's even questionable if they'll be on "rivaling the miracles of the divine" at Level 50.
You might want to re-examine the premise of your assumption there.
Ah, there's that "I'm better than you!" attitude of yours again, relegating NPCs to second class citizen (or even non-citizen) status in your view.
I take a different approach. I'd prefer to live in a City of Titans where the NPCs are just as much "real people" in the city as the PCs are. I'd prefer to view the NPCs as being PARTNERS, rather than looking down my nose at them as extras (or worse, expendibles). If you can't even bring yourself to view NPCs as even temporary equals to your demigod-like self ... um ... are you sure you aren't really a villain?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Why is the PC necessary?
Because this is a game made for the enjoyment of the player.
Why should the PCs ever be "the wrong scale" for a game centered around them?
You can't really have teamwork with an unthinking piece of code. It does what it does and you have to work around that. This is not teamwork.
Why construct an event in which the PCs (the thing the game is built for) and their abilities are sub-par in doing the task in the game based around them?
Hercules was a demigod and he was just super strong. I think we'll be able to make super strong people in the game.
NPCs are as much citizens as buildings are. They're an object in the world only there for players to interact with. You don't need to concern yourself with NPC enjoyment nor how an NPC feels while the game is being played. This isn't Log Horizon, they don't have their own lives.
So with that all said. You want the ACTUAL PEOPLE to play second fiddle to code to lessen their enjoyment and role in a conflict (in a game built around conflict) so an NPC can have the spotlight. NPCs aren't equal to PCs. Same as a table or device isn't equal to a person (at least until we get sophisticated enough AI).
Sure, in a role play sense the NPCs will be akin to real people but I am not and have not been looking at this from an in universe perspective. I have been looking at this from a game perspective and for the NPC to do cool stuff while the PCs are relegated to relatively mundane tasks is just unfun. The game and thereby the NPCs exist for the sole reason of entertaining the players.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
A closed mind is a terrible thing to maintain.
You will not be convinced. End of discussion.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Pot, this is kettle, or have you already met?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Yeah, I think this discussion has become entrenched. By which I mean the positions won't be changing by any amount of logic or appeal until a paradigm shift occurs.
The funny thing from my perspective is that I think both Project_Hero and Redlynne have valid arguments, and I think the only people not able to see it are each other.
I like the idea of aiding a large robot fight off a large monster. I think the scale of it could make for an awesome backdrop. But I also think that without the heroes there, the robot should fail, and without the robot, the heroes can only delay the inevitable.
There are so many plot angles we could put on this to make sense of it. I suggested a few in my post way up there _/^, but I'm sure there could be other ideas that give the heroes enough satisfaction that they still feel integral to the success and pride of accomplishment while still giving us a sense of scale that this threat was so much [i]MORE[/i].
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
One of the problems I have with it is our heroes will be facing world ending threats, either on their own or with a team and yet this one monster is SO powerful that we NEED the NPC to be able to win. Our heroes CAN NOT win without the NPC. And that just doesn't fly for me.
Maybe having this as a super lowbie zone thing wherein higher level heroes would be able to come in and fight the enemy giant as normal (read as not requiring the NPC). Then it could be used to show hero progression, how far you've come.
Having a giant vs giant PvP thing could work pretty well teams work together to defeat the opposing giant and team.
Some giant monster ideas I had were things like; stop giant monster from reaching the prison and releasing all the prisoners, failure to do so makes the zone more dangerous.
Giant monster where parts have to be destroyed together (or at least in close proximity).
Giant monster that after it dies it spawns two smaller, weaker versions, which after they die spawns two more smaller, weaker versions, etc untill they're like rikti monkey sized.
Giant monster where after it dies it rises again!
Giant monster where you have to blast off it's armored exterior to be able to attack the juicy center within, the armor regenerating after a fashion.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Project_hero, you just gave me an idea.
Another idea could be: this will take a few sentences to set up, so stay with me, please
1. The giant monster is either a biological mutation of something like a coral reef, or maybe it is a technological aberration like a bunch of sunken warships all stuck together, or maybe it is of alien origin, but the whole gist of it is that it is a conglomeration of smaller parts.
2. There is an anti-hero group who thinks that normal humans represent the best that humanity has to offer. This group creates a Mechanical Titan and uses this monster's invasion as an opportunity to try it out.
During the course of the battle between these behemoths, our heroes can join either side for or against the monster or for or against the mechanical titan. In any event, the monster is able to incorporate all the fallen bits of the mechanical titan into itself, thereby not only regenerating, but becoming stronger. While at the same time, bits falling from the monster can be defeated in detail while they are separated from it, but the heroes will have to hurry before they merge back into it.
This scenario could play out all kinds of ways. [list][*]With the players' aid, the mechanical titan could defeat the invading monster. The Mechanical titan would only be able to attack the main body, not the fallen bits while they are separated.[*]the mechanical titan could be destroyed by either the monster or the players or both (thereby satisfying some mission plot threads about the anti-hero faction) and then the monster turned back by the players [*]the invading monster could be victorious and lay waste to whatever portion of the city it was targeting and then return to the sea. Further investigation reveals it was being controlled and the target was some building, monument or thing, perhaps even the entity that had attempted to control it.[/list]
This scenario appeals to me because it forces the players to organize around those hitting the monster to break off a piece and those destroying the reticulose pseudopods stretching out to re-absorb the separated pieces of itself and of the mechanical titan, those trying to heal the mechanical titan and those trying to heal the monster. And it also appeals to me because it allows the players to make decisions affecting their alignment and reputations.
There is nothing about the invading monster that requires the mechanical titan to defeat it, but it is there and becomes something the players have to work with or around.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
The monster merging thing reminds me of Goliaths in Borderlands 2. Knock their helmet off and they go beserk taking out friends and foes alike, the more it kills the stronger it becomes which mean more rewards when you do defeat it.
Having only one monster being able to take parts of the other, and thereby growing stronger, makes the battle tipped more in the villain side, which can cause problems. See Star Wars Battlefront for any battles with the AT-AT walkers.
The merging monster also made me think of having a monster that raises itself from a junk yard and keeps collecting more junk to make itself bigger and stronger would be neat. Then the characters have to stop it before it grows too powerful. It would especially work if it was a place that was full of junk yards "Scrapzilla rises from a junk yard" then you have to find out which one and depending on the junk yard could have the monster have variable strengths and attacks.
Another idea I had would be a monster that lumbers towards a power plant (presumably at sunset) if it gets there it starts draining power getting more powerful and causing blackouts in parts of the zone which would increase criminal activity.
A problem I keep seeing/thinking of is there's very little consequences for not defeating a giant monster. It could destroy part of a city, yeah, but does that mean that that part of the city constantly respawns fixed?
Ooh. There's an idea. Giant monster wins, destroys part of the city (big explosion, so you can't see the transition, all characters in the vicinity die) then over the next few months (real time) that part is destroyed, with different villain groups than normal occupying it, after a fashion there'd be construction taking place (another easy transition just do it along side a maintenance or something) which would have construction workers (who could be saved from various troubles) and less villian presence (or maybe the construction co. Is a front for a villain org.) Anyway, at this point the monster can come again, if the heroes don't stop it it goes back to the destroyed state, if they do construction continues. Give it a few more "in construction phases" where the monster can still show up, which winning would allow the construction to continue making the part more and more repaired. If the monster doesn't get stopped it just wrecks the whole place again.
Actually it'd work well if the construction co and the monster are both backed by the same bad guys. Monster destroys part of the city, the city pays villain co to fix it, monster comes to destroy it, villain co gets paid again/more, rinse and repeat.
That was a huge block of text. Just ran with an idea, you know?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
What better way of unveiling a new zone of the city than to start it off with a giant monster rampage, followed by a period of time "under construction" and then, Voila! the new zone is opened. We could also do this with [i]mogul[/i] buildings.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
PCs can be demi-gods! If Thor can be a superhero, expect people to make god concepts :p
CoT of course, may never make it feel like it though.
However, even Thor has issues with some giant monsters. Just look at his latest movie.
Esp when you consider mutlidimensional stuff, straight up gods can exist in Titan City.
[hr]
[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
[b][i]CAN[/i][/b] exist is by no means equivalent to asserting that they [b][i]MUST[/i][/b] exist ... let alone that every PC therefore is one (by default), or even that *MY* PC should always be assumed to be such (starting at Level 1?). Just because some Heroes are of mythological origins (Thor, Wonder Woman, etc.) or are on power levels associated with demi-gods (Superman, Wonder Woman, etc.) doesn't ipso facto mean that all of them necessarily have to be demi-gods. Batman, for example, very explicitly is not a demi-god ... nor is Spiderman ... nor Black Panther ... nor a huge number of other Heroes (and villains) that any of us can name. Not everyone has a [url=http://ps238.wikia.com/wiki/FISS]FISS[/url] powerset (Flight, Invulnerability, Strength, Speed) that puts them on par with demi-gods from the perspective of Civilians.
Granted, pretty much all Heroes (and Villains) are capable of amazing feats, many of them beyond what normal (civilian) humans can accomplish ... but that doesn't mean they're all demi-gods [i]by default[/i]. That's a first order unforced error like assuming that everyone in the world with superpowers must be a mutant. Yes, X-Men styled mutants can have superpowers ... but just because they have superpowers doesn't ipso facto mean they have to be mutants.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
- Hamlet, scene 5
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Some of my characters are conceptually "demi-gods" but I'll often make up some pretense for why they are starting out as puny level 1 characters.
For instance they might be formerly all-powerful but for some reason they were stripped of their powers and banished to Earth as "mere mortals" as punishment for their crimes. Only by slowing atoning for their sins are they allowed to eventually regain their former glory. You know... stuff like that.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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There's also the idea that Level = experience, not power. Which is more a RP thing than a game mechanics thing.
Also also
Superheroes being likened to gods or demigods is a thing. It's been a thing in comics for ages. They're beings with much more power than any normal person. Even someone like Batman is like a character from a Greek myth.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Odysseus would be my choice for the secret ID of [i]Batman: BC1349[/I]
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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I always liked the idea of...this level 1 thing is not actually what I am, it's just a game mechanic I'm stuck with. :p
Or else, lots of concepts just wouldn't make sense.
"I'm a super soldier who fought Hitler! Now, I'm a lowly street sweeping vigilante who acts like he has no experience."
That said, there are heroes who can have the Flight, Speed, Strength and Invulnerablity and not be demi god levels.
It's also no like the game will give us Flash or even Quicksilver level speedsters. They won't even give us mach 1 speedsters likely :p More like...
Zero to Sixty: Hi! I'm a speedster!
Civvie: I love speedsters! What's your top speed?
Zero to Sixty: 60mph!
Superhero who isn't a speedster: Me too!
:p
That's why I like to think of level as either experience, clearance, or renown.
You can go to more dangerous places because you've proven yourself. For the WWII super soldier it's more of a formality, bureaucracy what can you do.
I think in CoV your level was refered to as your threat level, which I really liked. It wasn't an indicator of how powerful you were, just how much of a threat you were considered. New to the place, of course your threat level will be low.
Reminded of another thing that bugged me. People who RPd influence as actual money. Like replacements for dollars. Influence is not money, it is how much you can ask for. Superman has a lot of influence if he flies down and goes "Hey, can I have that? I need it for super hero stuff." People will go, yeah! Do that too much and people won't be so quick to agree, or will flat out tell you no. Can you get a hot dog with influence, heck yeah. Do you slap an influence note on the counter for it? Na.
Sorry for the rant.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
NP. I also did my best to think of Influence/Infamy as, well, influence or infamy instead of currency.
Again to bring up some of my characters who I conceptualized as "god-like" - they technically had no need for "money" because they often operated on a level far above such petty things. On the other hand I had fairly mundane gadgeteers who had to "pay" for their equipment so for them Influence/Infamy was closer to being "money".
I guess like everything else it was all in how you decided to RP it for each character.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Totally agree with you on this.
But then, it annoyed me when people RPed enhancements as real things. They felt more meta than something one would just find and attach to themselves, for an RP experience.
Ugh, people did that? I could see some like tech or magic hero making a tongue in cheek reference to them, but never like they're things they just strap onto themselves
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Thinking I'm on team "experience equals renown" better missions, better equipment. Esp for less-superpowered heroes (batman, green arrow)
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I did love the Rikti raids in COH and the mothership raid was always fun it would be nice to have that in titans where city alarms go off and have some kind of raid where a giant boss like Ukon gray type boss can spawn
True, but think for a moment. Is your world event intended to disrupt the normal activities of an entire zone/neighborhood for upwards of half an hour at a time?
That was the "flaw" of the Rikti Bombing/Invasion runs and the Zombie Invasion events. They would utterly transform the character and content of an entire zone for a significant period of time. I remember being on a [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Numina_Task_Force]Numina Task Force[/url] in the [b]Defeat X of Y[/b] in every zone of the game phase and needing everyone in the group to put their advancement on hold for half an hour because a zone event happened that chased away all the mobs we needed to be defeating to advance our way through the Task Force objectives. Basically we were "delayed" cycling through objectives because the GAME got in our way. It was obnoxious and annoying and we waited it out, but it seriously padded out how long it took for us to finish the Task Force.
This is why I proposed an event that Players could "get to" and which would involve what amounts to a Signaling Event so that Players know to head off and go join the effort if they're so inclined, but which would not (for the most part) take place in the standard/ordinary city zones/neighborhoods. That way, the event doesn't disrupt the gameplay for Players who are not participating in the event.
Open world events need to happen SOMEWHERE that the PCs can gather to participate in the event collectively. The question that follows that necessity is, how much are you planning to disrupt the "normal" activities of the city during that event? If you push things off into an instanced copy of the city (where you can destroy as much as you want without repercussions on the enduring world), that's one thing ... but if you're doing it in the open shared world that is persistent, you need to take into account how much disruption (and destruction!) your event is intended to cause.
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How to tell when the Devs are running out of ideas...
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Giant monster that upon defeat splits into multiple smaller creatures, the heroes then need to defeat all the little ones before they can reassemble the giant monster.
Possibly having the giant monster having multiple forms based on how many of it's component parts get destroyed.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
That’s called a hamidon raid :-)
Never participated in one, so I was not aware.
Did it actually work like that?
And also such a thing would be awesome for a giant robot monster. Either made out of nano-machines, small but not nano machines, or just like a voltron style robot that you beat it up till it falls apart then you can take out what forms the limbs and head so you could end up fighting an... You know what, just like the Montey python holy grail black knight fight. But with robots.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Eh... technically but not really in the way I think you're looking for. Basically there was Hami (the main big blob) and all the "Mitos" that protected it. During the raid there were different phases when more of the Mitos would spawn and everyone had to work together to handle things at each stage. I think technically the idea was that Hami was "subdividing" to spew out more Mitos but in practice it didn't really work that way. In the end when you killed all the Mitos you attacked Hami itself and then the raid was over.
Those raids were fun for the "social aspect" of it but the actual "combat part" of it was either total chaos (if people didn't know what they were doing) or almost boring (if the entire thing was working perfectly). There was rarely any in-between.
Yeah having critters that "fall apart" and then you have to deal with the "parts" would be cool. I'd love to see Python-esque Black Knights do that. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Monsters that fall apart would work great for a variety of monster types. Slime/amoeba type stuff like Hami, and robots made of smaller robots, sure. But also vine/plant monsters, magic style undead whose parts keep moving if you chop them off so you have evil dead hands coming after you, regenerating monsters where you have to finish off little bits or they grow into bigger threats..
..or maybe a pile of tiny gnomes in a trenchcoat pretending to be one giant guy?
[img]https://78.media.tumblr.com/90858f67ab170fca9594b82d46d9dfac/tumblr_inline_mwvusjRx6k1r78nbp.jpg[/img]
Or a giant monster made of gnomes
[Img]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gravityfalls/images/6/62/S1e1_gnome_monster_arms_up.png/revision/latest?cb=20130718020848[/img]
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I’m pretty sure there were clockworks targets in COH that upon killing would then explode a set of four cogs. I don’t remember them rebuilding the larger bot, just attacking. I know I almost always forgot about them just cause they were so weak. Little mechanical pests doing a pittance of damage.
Cool concept to have them rebuild the larger unit.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
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