One drawback to most non-mmo games is the ending. No matter how many side quests you do, how much stuff you craft or how many missions you get eventually it comes to an end. With MMOs you typically get some sort of endgame content but it's usually the community and altitis that keeps players interested.
My question is this: Assuming a character designed for all-around play with no specs or special inventions, how long should it take to reach lvl 50 through solo play? I specify solo because teaming is usually faster but how MUCH faster is impossible to tell with each case.
Now this is also assuming straight mission-related xp. If we say 100 hours (just to pick a number), that's a dea minimum...not the norm. Players will spend time doing everything BUT missions sometimes like the AH, the CC, chatting or street-sweeping. For these and many more reasons it's impossible to predict how long a player might take to get to 50.
But what should the MINIMUM be? We don't want leveling speed to be too fast OR too slow but can we find a happy medium?
On a side note: What benchmarks should we shoot for and why? CoH had 12 for DOs and 23(?) for SO, 20 for capes and auras IIRC and so on. Should we have any benchmarks like this and if so, where and what for?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I don't care to spend a lot of time "leveling up".. My character is a grown woman. I don't want to have to spend TOO much time treating her like she's a teenager just now developing and learning her powers.
If the game were ALL endgame I wouldn't complain one bit. But using level gating is a great way to ease the learning curve of character creation. It can be daunting to ask a player to build their entire character sheet at once so letting them do it over time is a good thing.
I tend to treat ALL leveling as a tutorial to the big stuff.. so I think two weeks of 3hr a day gameplay is enough to reach endgame.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
For me, I would say from 1-level cap (whatever that may be) should roughly take about 150-200 odd hours *nowadays*. As an example, it took me about 300 hours to get to cap in WoW... and that was level 1 through to 85, grabbing as many quests as i could, trying to complete zones before I moved on. I even did quests that needed me *minimal* XP in other zones, that I had outlevelled in that time frame, so you could quite possibly knock a few of days off that as well. Ran one dungeon, no raids during that time. that was *solo* play.
I believe that around the time of CoX, 300 hours was the expected duration, across most MMO's. I know that I broke that balance, because it took me 732 hours just playing one character (and no RP) to get to level cap. And I know one person who actually spent 5 years to get to cap on their singular character (they spent a LOT of time exemping helping new players when they were in the game).
But I then again used the AE for *one* character just to see what the levelling time difference could be... 23 hours it took me, with no XP boosters running.
Minimum I would be expecting is about 150 hours (give or take a bit)....
As another example... 1st playthrough of Dragon Age was 45 hours... Mass Effect 1: 40ish hours.
I would expect an MMO to take longer overall compared to those two.
Should take at least 400 hours to level 1 - Starting Max Level.
It's not the slow people you have to worry about. It's the speed levelers! 400 Hours is over 10 Hours a day. Nothing more annoying than the speed levelers who get to max level in less than a week and then go "What next? Nothing? Game sucks, I quit!" and then take others who haven't even reached the half way mark with them, because those speed levelers obviously know.
400 Hours won't slow down the speed levelers, but it's something.
Hours of Gameplay and Hours of "Leveling Up" are different things. Character Maturity is not a bad thing..
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I have no problem with people who speed level. I try to get to max level fast as well, but yeah, goes back to the "Now what?" problems, and I'm not sure I can think of a MMO that hasn't suffered that problem lately.
A perfectly valid viewpoint. I, on the other hand, would complain every bit if the game were all endgame. It's the journey I love in an MMO, not so much the destination. Endgame content is not the "real" game for me; it's more of a "Hey, remember this character?" I like to have some stuff for my 50s to do, but for me that is by far the minority of my time spent in an MMO.
The main reason I quit SWTOR is that the only new content seemed to be endgame. It's great for the devs, cuz they don't have to create as much content -- just a raid every so often that you are expected to farm repeatedly till the next release. One of the reasons I loved CoX was that new content was constantly being developed for all level ranges.
To get back to the OP's question, I don't have a numeric response, but I'd say slightly faster than it was in CoX at first, but not quite as fast as it was in CoX at the end. Which could be what Gangrel was saying more eloquently than I.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Current Level * 15 minutes = objective benchmark for time investment per Level
So Level 1 ought to take about 15 minutes to get to Level 2.
Level 2 ought to take 30 minutes to get to Level 3.
Level 3 ought to take 45 minutes to get to Level 4.
People with calculators can then figure out how long it "ought to take" to get from Level 1 to whatever Level they want to reach.
Note that using this standard, it "ought to take" 12h15m to go from 49 to 50 ... and only 7h15m to go from 29 to 30. It also means that each Level gain "ought to take" slightly longer to accomplish than the last one.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That quite nicely works out to be about 300 hours for a 1-50 stretch.
I'm good with staying on a level so long as there is new content relevant to my morality. I'm not all that altoholic, but if I was then maybe I'd want 8 of them to each experience mostly unique content, which means they'd level 8 times faster. But it also takes time to release content, so you'd need to slow me down if I got carried away. In all, I can't suggest a speed. But I'd prefer to err on the slow side at first.
My first toon took over a year to reach level 50 and I enjoyed every minute. My last toon rode the DFB, AE and ITF waves to 50 in very little time at all. I enjoyed that too because it was time.
[size=14]"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin[/size]
[size=14] "One piece of flair is all I need." - Sister Silicon[/size]
I would play more alts if I could reach endgame more quickly. I speak for myself when I say that playing as a weaker version of a character is lame. Again, I want to tell stories with my character. The mature version of my character. I would be completely happy starting there if I knew there were enough stories. The level gating, for me, only serves in lengthening out my character creation for concepts that I've not completely defined.. a "define as you go" type thing.
I hated when the X-Men got "Secondary Mutations".. for the most part it was a lame attempt to redefine a well established character and most of the time it failed.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
300 hours sounds like a good number. As was mentioned before, play time does not equal leveling time. I wasted nearly half my time (wasted is a harsh word...'was less productive') on things that gained me no XPs at all. This works out because for me the story is important. However after I've been through content 2-3 times then I do enjoy a good 'speed-level' session because I'm probably doing a theme toon or some sort of 'would THIS work?' intellectual exercise.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
My view?
From 1-80 in GW2, it took me 4 weeks.. and nope, I didn't RP or anything.. just did the Hearts and the personal story and NONE of the dungeons (save for the King Thorn one when it launched). 8 hours a day (more or less depending on what class I had that day).
Compare to WoW where after a month I still wasn't even close to 85 on a Death Knight.
A.
Death.
Knight.
Ya know. They start at 55 an basically hit 60 at the end of their Starter Zone?
That's just BS.
CoH though.. I have no clue how long it took to hit 50 on Nightmare. Back in the days of leveling him, I was always interrupted by RL like Boyscouts or school or such.. soooo... think I had only from 4pm-9pm? If I was lucky? Never really felt like grinding, just that I was playing it. (BACK IN MY DAY we fought Snakes on the Rogue Islands at level 7 and warehouses filled with Overpowered Infected at level 8. AND WE LIKED IT!)
Really, it shouldn't be so fast that it's a joke but it shouldn't be so slow that it's a chore.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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I took me 2 years to get my first 50, and I only had 3 50s by the end.
But then, I'm a bit of an alt-aholic. 2 accounts, and about 200+ characters between them.
I present this gem. Thank you Massively (A company that I in no way work at)
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/11/26/the-soapbox-developers-build-mmos-backward/
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Okay, I read it.
It proposes that games should be built with 'endgame' as a priority, rather than focusing on the Beginning of the game.
But it doesn't really SAY anything.
It seems to support the notion that the game 'begins' at 50, or whatever level. Personally, I have never experienced that. The only time I ever had something like that, I fought my way to 49 and then the Devs of that game set a New cap at 55. So I worked my way to 53 and they raised the cap to 65. And all of the new content was Raids...
So I quit and started playing City of Heroes, instead.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yeah, I completely disagree with the viewpoint expressed in that article. For me, endgame is not the "real" game; it's just something extra to do if I want to dust off a 50. Luckily for those of us who feel this way, MWM seems to agree, if KS Update 18 is anything to go by.
I find it interesting that the article claims lack of endgame is what made SWTOR decline. I left because they were putting nothing into it BUT endgame.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I guess my biggest gripe is having to say, man level from level 33-38 was such a nightmare. I think it would be nice to have a nice even flow, to where low and mid levels aren't to bad, but it gradually gets a bit harder and makes reaching end game more of a climb without being too bad, so you know when the climb is going to happen and can prepare for it accordingly. Having a nice level of consistency would be nice while leveling.
As for leveling vs end game content, you always have to keep both in mind honestly, definitely entertain people who are in it for the long haul, that's something guild wars 2 is very guilty of NOT doing so well, but also give lots to do for people who are new or making an alt, heck make multiple ways of getting there with story or pure method. This time I soloed, this character I grouped with, this character I leveled purely with pvp, just as a few examples and to also have alt making more fun. Replay value~
Personal unofficial opinion:
CoH was very much an alting game unlike many other MMOs and was not all about endgame. I'd say around 150-200 hours for a character designed to be a reasonably competent soloist, probably a little more for your first toon unless you'd played a lot in the beta, a little less if you team all the way. Replayability is key, so having plenty of content is a must.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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I may have linked to it before, but I found [url=http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7559/Up-to-90-of-MMO-Real-Estate-is-Wasted.html]this article[/url] to be quite interesting. I dare say it's a more CoT-centric look at MMO development.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
You're right, Fez, that is an interesting article ... and not just because prior to this I've been agitating for Zones that do not have Level Caps on them at the top end so as to avoid this kind of "one then done" kind of play through progression. City of Heroes definitely suffered for having SO MANY ZONES for its content, in that there were at least 2 zones for every Level in Paragon City (and sometimes 3)! The result was a "disposable" zone design philosophy where you outgrew zones and didn't come back to them (except for Mission Doors).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I've been an altoholic.. it was fun, then it wasn't.
I won't be playing an alt in City of Titans.. I will be extremely disappointed if there's nothing for me to do just because I have enough XP to be level 30 (or whatever the cap happens to be).
Endgame is the only real place you have a baseline of ALL character's expected performance. This is where I want the most engaging and challenging part of gameplay. Again.. I will have some fun leveling up but Kontrol is not some "new hero learning her powers". The fact that I have to spend XXX hours trying to get my character to maturity already upsets me. Not having anything to do once she's there just makes it worse.
I will enjoy the CONTENT from levels 1-30. I just wish I didn't have to be a nerfed version of my concept for most of it. More content for fully matured characters please.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I read it. I like it... but I have a concern. If you played Prince of Persia ... (forgot the name/year)
this one: [img]http://img.aktualne.centrum.cz/154/74/1547445-prince-of-persia-elika.jpg[/img]
... you might remember that about 40% (might be more) of the levels were reused, but just retextured. That was great and all, but they Overdid It. Its not enough to just Reaplly a Different material, the elements in the world should have been modified as well for it to stay interesting. After 3 days, my brain was telling me I was climbing the same hill in Snow, Sleet, Rain, etc... but the dang Same Hill. :/
Reusing assets ad nauseam is a different problem. The problem that the article highlights is that, especially in MMOs that focus on an end game, the majority of the effort goes into creating areas that are intended to be seen/visited only once. Zones need to be developed with the approach that they will have something for a maximum number of people/characters, rather than only characters within a tight level range. This is even more vital for a game like CoT, which will need to provide something new for people with characters at the level cap as well as keep the experience fresh for the many players who will create numerous alts. As Kern points out, spending six digits per additional hour of game play is a losing proposition.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I really don't see the problem with fairly slow innate level progression. People will generally find ways to power level their toons as fast as needed anyway (assuming not ALL loopholes that allow that sort of thing are totally closed, which may be pessimistic on my part). As I've said before, it's human nature to want things to be easier than they are right now, because less work for more rewards is what the human brain is trying to get all the time. The problem that comes into play with MMOs is that once you give people that, they get bored and stop playing. I think you have to at least start the game in a state where it has places to go yet, I mean, if leveling is fast enough from the get-go, nobody is going to care about XP bonuses, double XP weekends, etc, if and when they do roll out. The more restrictive the core rules are, the more opportunities the devs give themselves for opening it up little by little over time. I'm pretty sure I want the leveling to feel sorta slow in general, because that will make me want to participate in extra-XP stuff as it rolls out. I should also feel like I never have enough Influence (or whatever the in game currency is) so that I will jump at the opportunity to make more by participating in the Weekly Strike Target or whatever. I remember playing Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries and discovering that the game is actually more fun when you can't actually get all of the best stuff you would want, either because it's not available or because you don;t have the cash for it. The fact that you had to make due with a few more Chimeras instead of the more desirable Uziels, Ryokens, Bushwhackers, etc make it fun. When you've got all the XP and Infl you need, the game is too easy and you feel like Superman with Lex Luthor's checkbook. The game comes pre-won. You're basically just left to decide what color crown you want. When there's something left to be desired, you feel more like Captain America with Peter Parker's checkbook. You have to make do with what you have and scratch and claw your way to a more satisfying, more hard-won victory.
Besides, once you get a toon to the level cap, you either stop playing them, or else you play them as a cash-cow for your alts. That said I see no reason to make it inherently any easier from the start. You can always introduce new things that make the leveling faster. you really can't go back and make it SLOWER if you feel it needs to be fixed in that direction. People hate when you take their toys away. It's like the second rule of carpentry : if you've only got one piece of wood to get it right, remember that if it's too long, you can always cut it shorter. If you cut it too short, well, you can't cut it longer at that point. (the first rule is "Measure twice, cut once." and the Zeroth rule is "Always take proper safety precautions, including wearing safety glasses.").
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I do not fit into this. You can expect to see Kontrol unchanged for years in Titan City.. probably with the same powers and same uniform. Her story is what defines her.. Once you stop giving me stories to tell with her she will retire.. NOT because she's matured
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Do remember that the level cap will be raised some time after Launch to 40. And IIRC, eventually to 50.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
From what you've just said, it sounds to me like you're saying "I will continue to play my main until such time as I run out of new content to do, at which point I will retire said main." Which, to me, seems to fall into the category of "get to the cap and then stop stop playing." assuming that "get to the cap" implies "run out of canned missions/Task Forces to do" somewhere in the same time frame. If you're assuming otherwise, I think you should know that Positron himself once said that on average, a good dev team takes about 6 months to make enough content to keep players busy for like 2 weeks (actual numbers elude me, but it was months to weeks anyway). At that rate, assuming everyone plays like you claim to, we're all going to be offline playing some other game for the majority of our time after we hit the level cap.
Now, if it's the mission architect thing that you're looking forward to, that's great, but I don't see where the rate of level progression affects that. I mean, maybe at first, when you're brand new to the game it would but everyone has that to contend with. Apart from that, no worries. Besides, if the leveling is slower, more people will have more reasons to do user-generated content to break up the monotony of the canned missions once in a while.
I just think it's counterproductive to think of leveling up as "a bunch of hoops they make me run thru to get to the good part at the end when I'm done". MMO games are RPGS, and RPGs are generally in some ways about leveling and getting swag. That's part of the game's appeal to most people. Not everyone likes it, I know. Most PVPers for instance just want to get their toon totally built so they can start to compete. Guess what, all the other PVPers had to get THEIR toon built too. It's a level playing field in that sense. If people don't like that, they can hire someone to powerlevel their toon for all I care. You want to pay someone to play your recreational video games for you, go ahead. To me, this is like paying someone to chew your gum for the first 5 minutes. In any event, the leveling rate is not the problem here either, at least, not in the sense that most PVPer will find ANY rate of leveling too slow if it's standing between them and the part where they get to dominate the PVP scene. What is the real problem for PVPers is the high-end swag and how quickly/easily people can get it. Again here, the more content people have to do, the longer it takes, the more total swag will drop to everyone, including people who don't play PVP and don't care about that swag, thus increasing supply and making it easier for PVPers to get the stuff they want.
I remember there was a tipping point in CoH when people went from getting REALLY angry when they died to totally not caring at all. I liked the passion of the early days more than the apathy of the late days in that respect. When XP debt meant something and people would curse you out for not healing them or missing a buff or what have you.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I roleplay alot and tell alot of my own player created stories even inside the dev created content. But there is also a plan for player generated content. Which will likely keep me busy creating epic stories for myself (and others) to continue playing.
Also I tend to enjoy the ultimate player generated content experience, PvP (which i do in character).
I say this to say "Endgame should not be the end" it should be a new beginning. And if you need to constantly changing what character maturity is in the game in order to justify new content I think the game itself needs to be looked at. I can play 10 years with the same character especially because her decisions, factions, and hopefully even environment change. I don't need a level cap increase to justify enjoying Kontrol for another 10 years.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Good for you. I applaud that. If you fully intend to role play your characters for the long term like that, then why is the first 50 levels a drag if it takes some time to get there? The story may not end at the level cap, but it definitely doesn't BEGIN there either. The fact that we feel incomplete at levels 1-49 is normal and gives us a reason to keep playing, at least for as long as that reason lasts. After that, I think we've all got different plans but I don't look at the first 49 levels as a bunch of nonsense that I have to put up with to get me to where I'm going, and it doesn't sound like you do either. Getting there is more than half the fun, for me.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
It's a drag because i have to spend all that time as a gimped version of my character.
And I think there tends to be a large difference between the way I role-play (going out, doing missions.. u know.. being a superhero) and the way a lot of others role-play (sitting at a RP zone talking)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Agent Standin, who was a level 50(+3) Incarnate Warshade, will be having to learn to use a whole new set of powers once he arrives in Titan City. I'll be role-playing that, just like you role-play your character. Except, he doesn't expect to have phenomenal cosmic power. Well, actually, he probably will. But, he'll be disabused notion of that quickly enough.
Like you, I don't care to RP my characters until max level (unless the concept calls for it) because some concepts aren't "I'm new to heroing" one of the things I hated about CoH, assuming the character was new to the whole ordeal (CO does the same thing but then again, so do most MMOs).
Personally, I find the idea of wanting to "skip the game" in order to "start the game" to just be one of those kinds of circular arguments that makes remarkably little sense ... even though I started playing City of Heroes in the days of "Life Begins At 20-22" due to Stamina (20) and SOs (22+). Then we got the Incarnate System and it turned the game into "Life Begins At 50" which makes this point even sillier.
In a lot of ways, how your character(s) and playstyle evolve and grow as you advance in Levels determines a very great deal about how you are going to view your character (and play them) once you reach the Level Cap ... even if you do a total respec once you get there. The entire [i]wealth of experiences[/i] you gained in getting you to the Level Cap informs and directs who your character is and how you play once you get there. As proof, I offer the fact that "AE Babies" who power leveled their way through Mission Architect would routinely (and deservedly) MOCKED as being n00bs, idiots and imbeciles who had no idea how to play their power leveled 50 characters beyond just being button mashers once they started playing on "real" Teams and being challenged by a diversity of opposition. The reason why people had such a low opinion of such "AE Babies" pretty much nigh universally is because they "hadn't paid their dues" in learning how to play their characters "the hard way" and thus didn't have the wealth of EXPERIENCE in playing that most everyone else did by the time that they reached the Level Cap.
JayBezz, you may view the task of playing your way on up to the Level Cap as a "chore" to get over (as quickly as possible?) before getting to "the good stuff" ... while I see the task of playing your way on up to the Level Cap as being [b]necessary[/b] to being an Experienced Player who has "paid their dues" in the School of Hard Knocks and learned how to play THIS character (as opposed to being able to play just ANY character). I'd argue that if you're going to be playing only a single "main" character, the incentives structure changes a bit on that calculus, but overall I'd still argue that the point is valid. So ... don't be quite so dismissive of the journey to get to the Level Cap as I've seen you be in this thread.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
CoH wasn't really that hard to require a lesson in hard knocks. Seriously, I played someone's healer on a TF they had to bail on so their team didn't lose out on them, they never knew the difference. :p
Now, I had played CoH for quite awhile to the point that I may not have needed to worry about playing a set I myself had never made, but the point remains, one doesn't always need to go through the levels to know how to play their characters :p
Most melee primaries in CoH was more about figuring out best order of attacks than anything else as well :p
That said, with seeing mentions of Incarnates...for the love of all, please CoT don't give us Incarnates! More levels, more powers, okay! But don't give us these forced upon you cosmic powers :/ I know I can just ignore the in game lore behind the powers, but it just feels suckie to do that :p
X you DO realize the overwhelming weight and cost to develop an additional 5-10 levels of content right? It can take months...even a year...to work up content that you, by admission, will simply blow through and then ask for more.
As for RPing along the length of your character's life...that comes down to being good at RP. A level 14 toon in CoX could project all manner of energy, control minds, resist BULLETS and fly/teleport/whatever. That was before the last 2 years when they let us skip the prereq powers and just take Fly at lvl 6. As long as I have a movement power (assuming my toon should have one), 3 attacks (because the same 2 buttons gets old) and a nifty costume I can already RP them with total cosmic power. Yeah, getting shot by a thug is immersion-breaking in those terms but then so is being beaten up by two guys in jump suits and utility belts at lvl 20.
MMOs are all about the alts as far as I'm concerned. YMMV
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Actually, my admission was others would blow through it and ask for more. I was always patient with new content. :p Want it? Sure! Blow through the new content and then ask what's next? Never.
If I didn't have characters to level up/gear up, I was RPing or helping others level up/gear up. :p
In fact, I thought CoH had plenty of content PvE mission wise. I wanted more powersets and costume options.
On this it wasn't that they didn't know how to play its that they were hand held and tpd to parts of the city the didn't belong in to +1 the mission difficulty or farm output. Then they'd ask for an invite to another team and get "pissed" cause you wouldn't come and taxi them to the mission door.
I don't mind helping new players I do hate spoon feeding anyone anything. I ran farms had fun doing them. I missioned time again so I could show new players things they never saw before. Its not a grind if you enjoy it...it is a grind when it becomes work cause those you are playing with don't invest the time to learn the game mechanics.
Sadly, that was the case for even non-newbies who didn't rush/farm. "Jess! How can you do that and I can't?" "Did you get IOs" "No, to much work to build around those." "*facepalm*" or "Yes." "Which sets? *checks list of IO set bonuses*" "This *universally known lousy set* and this *another universally lousy set*" "You're set bonuses are all over the place, unfocused, and you even have a KB Resist IO when you're running a melee defense set with KB Resist." "But it's an IO, they should all be the same."
Made even worse when you offer to help and they're all "I don't need an awesome build." "Then why complain you can't do such and such which requires a bit of planning?" "... *logs off*" :p
And as an RPer...omg...I think the RP community had even more that way :p
to many max level meant "I won!"
Took me 2 1/2 years to get my first 50 in CoH...so I know it wasn't always a case of rushing through content for me :p Though, I fully admit that without AE farming, I would totally rush through levels when TFs became great ways to get XP (Except Citadel and Manti).
Yeah I used to complain about a lot of the power and AT descriptions for that reason. I PUGd with a Tank that bragged that he had 3 Accuracy SOs in Taunt because he wanted to make sure it hit. 'Um...dude? Taunt is an auto-hit for PvE. No Acc required.' Then he ranted and railed that he wanted to stop the TF to go do a respec right then and there to swap out the two extra slots.
Of course I was not immune. When I first started out I soloed a lot on my Blaster without much success. I was ready to leave the game before I started teaming. Then another player mentioned DOs (I was level 11 and almost ready for them) and I suddenly realized how things worked. However I also posted long tirades about how Power descriptions were misleading. I took Hover, C-Jump and Leadership early for the Defense buffs. All of these amounted to...about 6% Defense.
I was one of those players who wept tears of joy when we finally got the real numbers behind the Powers.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
In the early days those were like 5% each, and you had Hasten which also granted defense hehe
Yes, loved knowing the real numbers, so I knew where I could put what. It's why I hope CoT releases something akin to MIDS with the game.
I understand those who enjoy "training" their characters.. and because this is a MMO I know I'll have to do it and find some reason why my hero has to retrain herself to do all the things she's already known how to do her whole life. I accept that.
But I am not an alter.. I will enjoy telling my story of how Kontrol regained her ability and where she fits into Titan City. So if I spend 80% of the game's content "learning to be Kontrol again" then I will be SORELY disappointed.
I find the idea of "leveling" to be counter productive to the superhero genre unless you assume the character is a n00b who has to grow up. But it's a game and I accept that players are used to this type o progression . If I were making the game players would create fully formed heroes and variance of performance would be within 30% of one another.. because players find this idea to be daunting, Many people are happy to level their character and make combat decisions on a step by step basis instead of creating a full character like you would on a character planner.
I'm willing to accept that City of Titans will likely not "break the mold" but that doesn't mean that I am going to be happy spending so much of my character's time in the game "learning to be herself". So create a full and thriving endgame.
One game that is getting this very right is Everquest Next. They are creating a perpetual world AI where almost NO content will be repeatable in the same way as it once was..
1) The Enemy AI changes as players quest achieve their goals - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs1EtESFC34
Tell me ^That^ doesn't look exciting. Maybe IFRIT is being taken over by the 5 Dragons.. then the 5 dragons are now the prominent threat in Ironport.. or maybe they decide to expand to a DIFFERENT neighborhood.
2) There are overarching "rallying calls" for players to participate in that ACTUALLY Change the map - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWRcr1GeDcY
^This^ is the kind of endgame I'm talking about. Never run out of new objectives and the world is different for you as you move through it.. but my character doesn't have to be "in training" to enjoy it. Please see 4:30 of this video to understand what I'm talking about.
Now #1 I think is feasible further down the road if the devs create the ground structure for AI to change as the game progresses and have a perpetual understanding of the goals and objectives of their NPCs.
To do #2 the devs would have needed to create this as a design goal BEFORE any real development was done.. but it's the single most exciting thing I've seen when it comes to the concept of MMORPGs. If the real goals of the city maps effected permanent change, then I would have no problem leveling my character to maturity because my mature character gets to tell new story as long as the game server exists.
- -
Unfortunately, I don't expect City of Titans to come with permanent change to any map server. Unlike the Marvel world where characters grow and exist now.. the server will be more like the DC world where the maps are reset in a rubber-band.
So If my character experience is to be exist without the open sand-box I don't want to get all dressed up for my own funeral. Give me something to DO and I'll keep supporting your world.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
So you'd be happy with 'create my character, level to max the same day, actually start playing the character and enjoying it?'
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Clearly there isn't any one scenario that will please absolutely everyone.
Seems the best we can hope for is a mid-point that the majority of players find acceptable.
My first 50 took me nearly a year and I, too, prefer the journey to the destination.
Personally, I think if they start us out slow and gradually loosen things up if needed I think it would be fine with most everyone but God forbid they take away easy-mode and make it slower. I think the backlash would be incredible.
You can't really put the genie back in the bottle.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
you cant satisfy those people no matter what, so slowing everyone else down isnt a good answer. 1st time through, 200-250 hours. experience should shorten that. I had 34 50's in COH and I could level quickly(only 1 was power leveled, just to see what that was like) You dont want people stalling in 1 area for too long. In swtor, hoth is intended to bring you up 4 levels. people get sick of the same scenery after a while.
i think vanilla World of warcraft leveling was good, but now its waaaayyy to easy.... something in the middle would be great. And please make the combat unique to each player, in COH sometimes i had no clue what was going on or what i was suppose to be doing lol.
If you are *already* level 50, that's too fast!!
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
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Jay, it seems your trouble is in trying to re-create your favorite character from CoH and wanting to "continue on" in CoT. I see you missing out on so much of the game that way. It is a personal decision , for sure.
I am an alt-o-holic. I'll be playing one character and get an inspiration for something else. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. In the beginning, I want to try out many different styles and powers and see what feels comfy for myself.
When I hit the "end game", it is usually the end of the game for that character. I play for the journey of my characters throughout the game, not for the arrival of them at the destination. I play to watch my characters learn and grow. It is my personal preference.
What will your character do when you reach the end? Will you be logging in regularly waiting for the developers to present new stories? Will you be repeating stories already told? Or will you just sit out until the next expansion hits?
Who do the developers try to make the game for?
I don't mean to be mean, but try thinking of a hero who is NOT called "Kontrol." How do you feel, then? Or is "Kontrol" your only character choice and everything must fit that pre-conception?
- Al
Your definition of "End of Game" and mine are different and I accept that.
No, I will not be playing any alts as I did in City of Heroes. I would rather be a single entity existing in a perpetual virtual world. Your alting metagame surely should be supported but that should in no way take away from my metagame.
Much of the answers to your question of "what will I do at the end" depends on the game's mission structure. I hope that there are environmental missions that are dictated by the AI (Roaming Supervillains in open world, Civilians/Police who need help, Bombs/Fires to extinguish). I also really wish CoT could have perpetual environment.. it's not a design goal I have heard from the devs but it's one of the major selling points coming out of the NextGen MMORPGs.
If the world is elastic and not perpetual then I can only hope that the player generated content is a viable and engaging way to continue telling stories. Whether this be a nemesis system, a NPC ally system, the mission generator or PvP.. If the game becomes stale and/or predictable I will go likely go to a game that is more mindful of endgame.
Everquest Next has a very viable plan for endgame as it has perpetual environment and perpetual AI. While I understand CoT cannot afford a perpetual environment building mecanism there is still room to have perpetual AI included in the design goal. No more dedicated spawn camps, and Enemies have actual goals and intelligence.
If the game is being designed with NO plan for endgame then I consider this a large fault.
- -
Regardless of the actual endgame.. spending time in a game having two or three powers to choose from while I wait to learn more powers is boring. I asked in another thread concerning character level that the powers pools be opened earlier and the character defining buffs/passives be defined later making this process easier. I dont want to wait until level 6 to learn how to run. Much less do I want to wait to get all my powers until level 30 then have no content in which to actually use the build I've spent so much of the game building.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I understand wanting to have your character with all of their powers and having something to do once you get them all. It seems, however, counterproductive to "playing a game." Many players talk about "the journey", and I am one of those players. You do not seem to want this at all. Why even play an RPG? It appears (and I could very well be wrong here) that you just want to fight with your character maxed out. Your "backstory and growth" seems to satisfied for you in a different game. That is fine. I just hope that CoT does not cater to your style over mine, which is journey based. I hope (but do not know) I am in the majority here.
When I did play my 1 character that got to max level in CoH, it was never about the content, but rather about whom I was playing with, enjoying my time online. The developers can do nothing to help me there except give a setting for that. I played in groups in Cimerora, but never took the time to read to quests (not many players want to wait around for another's reading). To this day, I have no idea why I was there :)
I do hope that there will be endgame activities. It would surely be sad if they did not. The difference I see is the importance of these activities between us.
- Al
I have several Endgame plans in mind.
Personally, I kind of like Redlynne's math in her post, perhaps leaning toward a bit faster than what she has outlined.
I think it might be possible to accommodate both 'just give me the levels'" players and "just give me the story" players. We are certainly going to try. One possibility I am personally considering is a large amount of optional content: self-challenges and side goals that are rewarding both in terms of lore and rewards.
Also, I have high hopes for the Leads system.
No promises of course, just directions I am thinking in.
______________
IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
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I had mentioned this back on the MWM forums.
Majority of experience came from enemies in CoX and thusly was abused by power levelers.
Getting experience off of enemies is a must because it shows the growth of the character in combat.
I'm playing Neverwinter right now and they went a different direction which took away power leveling options. They have to where majority of experience comes from mission/quest completion. So quickly playing through the content is the fastest way to level and if your eager to level fast, then bringing a friend in at max level to finish missions faster is the only power leveling option. Example, If there was 100 experience total in the game then 80 of it would be from mission completions.
-AlienMafia (Justice Server)
Main: Thorns 13xx Badges
I want to say that to me there is a difference between 'power leveling' (which doesn't bother me) and 'leveling too fast for the good of the game' (which should bother everyone).
Where that line is, is the question.
______________
IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
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While it has not been stated outright it has been implied that I am a, using your definition, "Just give me the levels" player. I am telling you that I am categorically a "Just give me story" player. I tend to read ALL of the mission text and go lore hunting more than anyone i've ever played with. I plan to play through every bit of story you give me.
I will be very disappointed if the bulk of my experience as a character in your story is spent as a version of herself that is not fully mature. I am fine being level 1.. as long as being level one means I still have the powers and mechanics I'd expect as a mature superhero with fully defined abilities.
Somehow the notion that leveling up is apart of an RPG is an accepted norm when it is nowhere in the definition. You can roleplay and NEVER become stronger as a character. What you gain is experience and that experience should be valuable. The idea that RPGs require leveling comes from popular fiscal strategies for player retention. I respect that, but do not accept that it is the only way to enjoy any journey.
Stating that I don't enjoy the journey is a false argument as any two players will have completely different experiences ON any aforementioned journey. I fully intend to enjoy the journey. I am just letting it be known that I appreciate not being a gimped version of my character for the duration. Especially if once my character nears maturity there is nothing for her to do and no stories to tell. I've run into enough games where characters have a mid-life crisis that turns into an end-life crisis because game companies are ageist .
The longer a character exists the more experience and value they present to their environment. It's one of the fundemental design goals of Everquest Next. You are rewarded for your experience.. and if you are new to the world, there will be elder characters with many stories to tell you years down the line of how the world used to be.
Young whippersnappers and their army of alts is a great metagame. But it is NOT a great endgame. Please - Do not penalize character maturity. Find creative ways to reward their longevity and you may find that your PLAYER retention stays as high as your CHARACTER retention.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
"I will be very disappointed if the bulk of my experience as a character in your story is spent as a version of herself that is not fully mature. I am fine being level 1.. as long as being level one means I still have the powers and mechanics I'd expect as a mature superhero with fully defined abilities."
I am the other side of the coin. My greatest joy is the journey, seeing how he/she grows matures and changes. My second greatest joy is levelling up the next alt and savoring the differences in flavor between the two experiences.
This is in no way a criticism of your play style Jay. Lucky I'm not one of the devs who has to look at the two groups we sort of represent and find a way to build a game we both love.
-joe
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
I only wish it ever were a style of play. To date there are no games that embrace this philosophy. I understand and accept that. Even if/when it exists in City of Titians.
But there is the secondary implication that its "ALL about the journey" and I just want it noted that alting is not my metagame and is not endgame. I am glad to hear that endgame metagame is being discussed. The leads/factions system is one dynamic (non-static) system. Persistant AI would be another. "Rallying Calls" could be another.
But please devs, do not operate on the intention that mature characters should just make an alt. Nurture character maturity.. identity is a great driving force to player retention.
Forum posters, do not operate on the assumption that players like me will "rush through the game" just to get to the endgame. As many players as use the offline "character builders" to plan their build will tell you "I just want to see my concept realized."
Please producers, understand that there are many players who WILL want to powerlevel. My evidence for this assertion is the raw numbers of players who used Champions Online's "Alert System" to level up concepts without ever even TOUCHING story. I don't have the pure data but I can tell you that the story-free version became the dominant version of level progression OVER the story based number (leaving entire zones of their game desolate). I am presenting the hypothesis that many of THESE players would also enjoy being a level one character who can already fly/punch/heal/shoot/mez and have more than one power in their arsenal to do so. The crawl before you walk model is great when LEARNING a game.. but I still contend that players may have outgrown this immature view of character progression.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I do understand your point. I, too, want to see my character concept realized.
Now, there are not any MMOs that I can think of that plays to your style, but other games do. Many of them are older First Person Shooters like Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein, and such. Your character only "grew" with each new gun they grabbed. Your character started out maxed, per se, and equipment (and player knowledge) is what made them better.
One thing I will admit...
One thing that bugged me about CoH Powers was the addition of them as you progressed. I can kind of see a Fire Controller getting new fire powers. The Cape mission at 20 also bugged me. So... NOW I can wear a cape? Why am I able t6o fly at level 6 (Hover)? What about my powers made this possible? Why did I get this power from the Leadership Pool? Did I get struck by lightning again?
It would be nice if we chose all our powers to start, having them grow with us as we level.
- Al
Many games do this, the problem is that if you find a quest you can't do, there's no "street sweep till I level and get a new contact" option because it takes forever. I really dislike it in NW, but with the foundry it's better than the equivalent situation in some other games.
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This is true but im thinking how CoT will be like with the multiple contacts and story lines. Your right about NW because there was only 1 storyline.
-AlienMafia (Justice Server)
Main: Thorns 13xx Badges
For many of the powers that you listed and several others not listed, I can see why you could pick them up at later levels. Think of them as "skills", rather than "powers" and you'll get the concept of having to learn those skills. That goes for Leadership, Defensive powers, and Offensive powers. I can tell you, that the first time I picked up a flail, I wasn't able to do the things then that I can do with a flail now. Same goes for using a shield, leading a squad, working the drive-thru at McDonalds, even working Security.
Some people might have a natural talent with certain skills. But even with natural talent, they won't be the absolute best without experience. And, they'd still learn new variations and uses of what ever skill they were a natural with.
Also, according to some comics, Superman couldn't fly at first. That was a talent he picked up later.
Think of all the retcons you could $ell. haha
I can agree. I'm not saying that you should be able to throw a fireball that chains and turns into fireponies right off the bat. But if your character is based on fire ponies the less time it takes to be a fire pony maker the better.
Please don't make people wait to fly (or on my case run) its just lame gaming in my opinion. All I'm saying is if I pick a controller character it shouldn't take until level Y to be able to use at least one movement debuff and one perception debuff (Hold and Placate/Confuse) right off the bat. I can learn more and varied versions of that power later on and still feel like I'm not "waiting to be Kontrol".
I would love to have ALL my powers (not my "passives" and buffs) right off the bat. But the least I'm willing to accept is spending more than an hour (post costume creation with takes some people days alone) until I feel like my character is a superhero. And I say an hour because I will likely only do it once.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'm not wedded to any particular time interval, although my "feeling" is that something in the 10-15 minutes added per Level seems about right.
Speaking of which ...
Here's a radical thought to contemplate. What if there was a Cooldown Timer on Training to go up a Level? Specifically, what if the timer was set essentially in the way I described early on in this thread?
The "15 minutes" constant part of the formula could be adjusted to whatever is desired, but that's the basic idea. Development then gets the freedom to decide if the "Training Cooldown" is tied to Playing Time Elapsed for the character or is tied to Real Time Elapsed as measured by the game server.
There's even the possibility of doing a "both" option on the Training Cooldown, such that you could do something like have the "15 minutes" constant part of the timing formula be the Real Time Elapsed marker, while having a separate "10 minutes" constant for a timing formula that uses Playing Time Elapsed. This means that you can "run out the clock" on the Training Cooldown by either playing constantly (which is faster) or by logging out that character and coming back to them later on (which is slower but potentially convenient). The Trainers would simply honor whichever of the two cooldowns completed first, creating a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction]Logic OR[/url] based requirement on the cooldown.
With such a system in place, the Developers would be able to set a minimum threshold as to how quickly (in time) characters can be advanced in Levels, thereby effectively controlling the minimum amount of time investment needed to reach the Level Cap. It wouldn't [i]prevent[/i] power leveling per se, but such a system would certainly [b]frustrate[/b] a pretty wide variety of power leveling schemes and strategies. Most casual Players however would probably never see the system as an obstacle, except very occasionally (if it's set up right).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I may have been enough of a Mids' Jockey to want to build my characters before playing them so as to save myself respecs later in City of Heroes ... but I honestly can't recommend ENFORCING such behavior on *everyone* for City of Titans. That just feels like too high a hurdle to clear for the casual gamers out there.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I can agree with your sentiment Redlynne but I do welcome devs to challenge that.
I have advocated that every mechanic from threat to mez to heals to damage be weighted (quality based systems NOT quantity). So even If I'm given a "perception debuff" that only has enough magnitude for a placate at tap and tiny confuse at full charge then as I level up that same power becomes a tap = placate and anything more than tap = StrongerConfuse. The powers choice doesn't change as I still have the "perception debuff at 50m range power" but it grows with me.
To restate with another system: snares/roots/attackspeed (I have affectionately labeled action debuffs).
Maybe right out the gate I can only slow or snare enemies but as I grow stronger (if I choose to increase my action debuff strength) the weight of this same power grows and eventually grows from being able to root enemies to also making them attack 75% slower.. or.. 100% slower!
This is a large reason I'm hoping for quantity systems (Hit Points, Heal Points, Buff Points, Mez Points etc) where the threshold strength of your attacks are weighted against enemy resistances. It gives players more versatility other than the quantity based (binary 1 or 0 ) cast a snare. now level up and cast a root. now level up and cast a attack speed debuff. now level up and cast a full incapacitate. The power would grow with you as your character gains Experience.
- -
P.S.
This example is for "blast" attacks. Of course there would also be click mez attacks and Maintained AoE mez attacks and also Mez over Time attacks. So you are never at a lack of choices of power mechanics. You're not only going to have ONE "mez" power" <--- he says preemptively
- -
P.P.S
In the same scenario I picture players who don't want to focus on increasing the mez portion of a mez attack to instead of increasing mez strength to instead focus on the damage portion of the power through a power enhancement system designed to allow players with even the same powers in their build to function differently based on character choice.
Karma controls minds and does so with little pain. Emma Frost does it and makes sure to leave a mark.
Ok.. I think i'm done geeking on possible game mechanics for the night #PutsTheCoffeeDown
Crowd Control Enthusiast
HAHA! For sure!
- Al
I understand that. What I meant was when I create my hero, I have a concept in mind, like "Do they fly?" or "Do they have a medic skill?" Adding those powers later on causes me to possibly re-think my hero and his origin.
Does whatever gave them the powers in the first place re-occur? Do they have another, totally different accident or mutation this time around? As someone else pointed out, some of those powers are more like skills, like Leadership or Acrobatics that could easily fit into a concept by just learning them. But Flight? That is a power, hands down :)
In the comic books I read, Superman never gained any "extra/additional" powers, that I can recall. The Flash and Spiderman never gained any additional powers, either.
On one hand, I can see a hero learning more about their powers, especially like elemental based powers. When a hero first learns they have these powers, they may only be to cool off a villain. As they use their powers and learn more about them, I can see them getting new related powers.
On the other hand, powers like "Super Reflexes" or "Kinetics" are kind of like being pregnant: You either are, or you're not. Does a hero get "more" super reflexive or kinetic as they go along?
That is kind of what I am getting at. Did that make sense?
- Al
Yes, they would. As they gain experience and with their abilities, they'll be able to do more with those abilities.
As for superman not being able to fly at first, I give you this: [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Comics_1]Action Comics #1[/url]
Specifically, the part about Superman's first appearance.
Note that Superman wasn't impervious to everything at first either. That came later (as the writers needed him to survive more and more outlandish fights and things).
You see characters gaining new super powers in media all the time, but it isn't always presented that way.
Lots of times, it is just an expression or application of the power in question (Super breath or Hand Clap as an expression of Super Strength) as opposed to it being labelled an entire power.
______________
IANAL, IMHO, WYSIWYG, YMMV, IIRC, AFAIK, ETC
[color=#ff0000]Composition Assistant Director, Composition Team[/color]
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* cough *
Level Capped ...
* cough *
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Using Action/DC comics as a beacon of continuity is bound to fail you. Unlike Marvel they can't figure out their "origins" so they just keep resetting the universe.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I was corrected :)
I'll just have to rework my head around this :)
- Al
Marvel is guilty of that as well. I have read multiple version of Tony Stark as well. If a comic has more than 1 writer, there will (most likely) be more than 1 version of the characters in that comic.
Yeah sad to say but having lots of chefs can spoil the soup...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
While I'm not saying everyone enjoys it, but street sweeping is still an option, even if you think it takes forever.