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Let's Argue: sliding scale of realism vs fantasy

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notears
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Let's Argue: sliding scale of realism vs fantasy

Alright so I've been having this idea for a while now... I like to call it a let's argue since I do want to encourage arguments here... not the bad kind where we sling insults left and right so try to avoid that, but more the good kind, where we are trying to win each other points and facts. no name calling, I want to test this out here, and if this doesn't combust flame war I'd like to make more of these about topics that I feel are important. Feel free to make your own IDC

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

notears
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So a good point I've come

So a good point I've come across is, "it's a superhero MMO" only goes so far... so we should decide as a community how far can that really go.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Radiac
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If something visually makes

If something visually makes no sense to the point where it makes the casual observer go "Wait, what? That's just silly..." then it's probably too unrealistic for me. Things like the "pony magic" that MLP used to allow the ponies, which have no arms, to hold and manipulate objects like people (which always reminds me of the Bud Bowl commercials from the 1990s when they had bottles of beer throwing, catching, and running with footballs) immediately comes to mind. To me travel anywhere via Swinging like spidey even when there's no obvious place to attach a web falls under this category. That said, they're doing it, because they said they would in the KS. I would limit it to just places where it works and make it a temp power like the Jingle Jet if anything and even then only have it work in maps designed for such. Maybe in some bizarre set of circumstances you'd have to use Swinging to get around the map on some TF instance or something (Ooh like a Tarzan jungle map...) Apart from that, I'd leave it out. But then I'm not in charge.

For immersion purposes, I'm also against letting people keep a mission in their back pocket for like a year and keep doing it without ever finishing it in order to farm it for rewards or whatever. I would, if anything, just let people finish the mission and then let them do it again as often as they want as a flashback or something. At least then you wouldn't leave your NPC contact mission giver in a permanent holding pattern. Also, maybe have diminishing returns in some way on the rewards for each time you restart the mission beyond the third. That way excessive farming of a single mission might not be so prevalent. This too is another one of my patented Monumentally Unpopular Ideas (TM). I'm that DM that won't let people wish for more wishes, or even give them the magic ring in the first place. Some people claim they liked farming, I maintain that what most farmers really liked were the rewards and the pace at which they got them. There's a difference. If the most efficient way to get rewards is something other than doing the same mission over and over again, my assertion is that the same people who claimed to like farming will do the new "optimal thing" instead and never look back.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

notears
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Replacing a travel power with

Replacing a travel power with a temporary power is just not a good idea... it's a cop out. Now I was convinced that being able to Spider-Man swing no matter what is silly. I agree with that, but replacing it with a temporary power? No, just no... too many people want to swing as a travel power. We should make it a travel power... and it should be completely viable as a main travel for most places, not all places, most. My idea is to make it like the batman grappling hook from the Arkham games, where you pick an anchor point and you go to it. Anchor points don't have to be a building but in the overworld they should exist even in the desert, deserts aren't just flat all the way through, they have cliffs, peaks and valleys in them. In an instance? sure have one that's just flat... but in the overworld between missions? it should still be viable... we just have to rework it not get rid of it or turned into a cheap toy.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

notears
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Also maybe we should move

Also maybe we should move this somewhere else.. the swinging argument I mean... this is about how realistic in general we want the game.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Lothic
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Since this game will be set

Since this game will be set in a "comic book" superhero setting it should be possible to rationalize that almost anything is possible, at least once.

Here's what I mean by that: Take the Swinging travel power anchor point issue as an example. Now there's absolutely nothing wrong (in a superhero universe) to say that at least one character has some kind of "magic rope" that would allow him/her to toss one end up in the air and it just magically "lock" into place so that you can swing anywhere. That would be cool and completely "justifiable" in a world like CoT. Now where that rationalization falls apart is when you have to go so far as to say that EVERYONE who wants to swing as a travel power automatically gets to "pretend" they have one of these magic ropes. Did gravity-defying ropes suddenly become so common that you can buy them at Walmart?

See the difference? Being able to explain away obvious physics problems by saying "Well it's a superhero game" is fine when that cure-all is not abused. But if it got to the point where "superhero magic" was so commonly over-used that literally everyone has access to it then you're no longer talking about something special but instead just talking about a sci-fi alternate reality world where things are just -expected- to (in this case) be able to defy gravity. The line between what is normal and what is "super" would be jumbled and all you'd have is a mess.

Super powers are only super because they are relatively rare. Let everyone have their own "magic ropes" and there's no point in playing a so-called superhero game.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

notears
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yeah maybe the supers stuff

yeah maybe the supers stuff should be rarer then.... maybe less rare then in a typical comic book universe, this is an mmo and there is expected to be more of the thing your playing as here, hence why there's so many adventurers in WoW. Albeit I would like it more if it was like this. Let's say 30% of this one city is made up of not normal citizens. now 55% of that 30% the non normalness can't really help them out most of the time, it may even be detrimental to them, like you walk up to a non-normal citizen and ask them why their special and like there's a 55% chance there all like "Yeah my farts smell like vanilla sometimes" or their like "Look dude I'm just a Dwarf.... no I'm not like some great warrior or legendary blacksmith or something like that I'm a school Janitor!! Look I'm late for work see you later...". Now 20% of that 30% have special powers that can help them a little or have special powers that only really help them with non combatic stuff. They're the people that can float, not fly, float, or they're the guy who can speak any language in the world or they can talk to dogs. stuff like that. Another 20%? They have combat powers but they're not all that helpful, they can shoot fire out of their hands, but it's like just 1 ranged attack at it's lowest tier, or they know one epic martial arts maneuver but they don't get it completely right 95% of the time, or they they're a hedge mage, not even a doctor strange type wizard, just you know... a hedge mage... they have like 1 spell they can use to attack that not all that impressive and a bunch of cantrips that do stuff like talk to plants or control dust motes or change something's colour for a while. Those guys that make up the mob that us heroes and villains fight in our missions. 7% of that is well us. The bigger stronger guys that can take out like 5 of those guys up above without breaking a sweat. The people that are actually competent enough to fight crime on a daily basis by our selves, is 7% out of 30%. That's where we stand, with the remaining 3% being Archvillains or Archheroes.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

notears
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and with that we could still

and with that we could still have like overly mad sciency zones or overly magical zones. A lot of the madscientists or mages in the city may not be that good at their craft, but there are still going to be quite a lot of them in a city like this to have a few completely overly fantasized parts of the city, with a little minor magicy and mad sciency stuff here and there.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Radiac
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You COULD just make a

You COULD just make a Swinging power that only works in places where there are objects you can attach a swing line to. I'd be fine with that. So when you're standing on the ground and you shoot a line at a nearby building, it grabs onto the wall and pulls you up, when you're not near anything like that, the line "whiffs" and you're left standing there, having to use other travel powers or just good old Run to get to where you want to go.

It would be an under-powered travel power as compared to Fly, but then many of them are.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

notears
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

You COULD just make a Swinging power that only works in places where there are objects you can attach a swing line to. I'd be fine with that. So when you're standing on the ground and you shoot a line at a nearby building, it grabs onto the wall and pulls you up, when you're not near anything like that, the line "whiffs" and you're left standing there, having to use other travel powers or just good old Run to get to where you want to go.
It would be an under-powered travel power as compared to Fly, but then many of them are.

Dude atleast take this to the animation suggestion thread where that rguement is being held...

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Lin Chiao Feng
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Actually, I'd be tempted to

Actually, I'd be tempted to consolidate those threads into this one...

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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The problem with realty when

The problem with realty when it comes to games, is the players.

For instance, I hated how so many players would act like (some even RP) that the mobs come back :p LAME! Or how people would RP the heroes standing around in the same spot forever.

I also didn't care for the "Go to trainer to get power" :p OMG! Just let us open a new window to get the new power, skill. Do not try to do what CoH did and make every game mechanic something part of the story. Like enhancements. Again. Lame :p The auction house. Lame! :p

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These discussions cam get

These discussions cam get tricky because there are two realities, so to speak, to keep in mind. In a superhero setting most things can have a plausible explanation. E.g. A child carrying a large cannon in a superhero setting will raise fewer eyebrows than a child carrying a large sword in a fantasy setting (Final Fantasy being an obvious exception, natch).

Swinging being possible everywhere, even without any anchor points, is a game play necessity. MWM can't very well take away players' powers because they deem it unrealistic that they can be used in certain situations. It's a necessary compromise for having that power.

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It's not just a simple matter

It's not just a simple matter of realism vs. fantasy. There is also the fact of what is programmable without creating massive resource drain and what is not. If the only travel power a person has is acrobatic swinging like Tarzan or Spiderman, then some facility simply must be made in flat zones. To not do so is to create zones where some players are excluded not because the zone is too dangerous, but because their optional, non-combat travel power won't work there.

Whenever game mechanics or game scenarios arbitrarily exclude players the game has failed as an entertainment medium.

A game can't expect to succeed if it is designed in such a way that players cannot play it.

It's like having location badges in areas where non-flying characters cannot reach. Sure, someone could team teleport them to the location, but that necessitates enlisting the aid of another player, effectively putting a player at the mercy of the sadist and the extortionist, which is no different than excluding them entirely.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I also didn't care for the "Go to trainer to get power" :p OMG! Just let us open a new window to get the new power, skill. Do not try to do what CoH did and make every game mechanic something part of the story. Like enhancements. Again. Lame :p The auction house. Lame! :p

Interesting. I can't disagree more.

In my opinion, those were strengths. I have played games at both ends of the extremes and I have to honestly say that the ones who do not sacrifice immersion for convenience have more staying power and player involvement and less temporary players and elitist jerks.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Radiac
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

These discussions cam get tricky because there are two realities, so to speak, to keep in mind. In a superhero setting most things can have a plausible explanation. E.g. A child carrying a large cannon in a superhero setting will raise fewer eyebrows than a child carrying a large sword in a fantasy setting (Final Fantasy being an obvious exception, natch).
Swinging being possible everywhere, even without any anchor points, is a game play necessity. MWM can't very well take away players' powers because they deem it unrealistic that they can be used in certain situations. It's a necessary compromise for having that power.

I disagree that Swinging everywhere, to the point of having mid-air anchor points that look ridiculous, is a necessity. It just isn't. Case in point, CoX didn't have swinging AT ALL, and CoX made out just fine as such. Freedom Force didn't have it either. I just don't buy that. Freedom Force DID have a Wall Crawling power, which, shocker, didn't do anything for you if there was no wall to crawl on. Super Speed in CoX had limitations that made it very difficult to get vertical movement with it. They didn't just hack it so you could "run" on thin air as a kluge because it was "necessary".

I don't think any one travel power needs to be the end-all-be-all in terms of getting you from place to place. I think there's room in the game for the powers to work in a way that makes some sense and still have fun with them.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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It might even make sense to

It might even make sense to scale the travel power improvement costs based on the usefulness of the power. This is dangerous territory, I admit, but here's the reason for putting the idea forward:

Flying is really the most supreme power for most things. It gives you the best field of view, the best control and the most flexibility. If you want to hunt for badges, or just get to the tops of structures, flying is your easiest solution.

Teleporting can come in handy by allowing movement through obstacles, so long as you can see where you're going; but without a hover ability, it is more limiting than flight.

etc.

So improving flight should cost more development points than improving teleport, which should cost more than swinging, etc.

I know that some characters will want some travel powers just because they are appropriate for the character design. But all things being equal, a player who wants to pick superspeed because her character is a speedster, might pick flying instead just because it is a more attractive option from a utility perspective. So my thinking is that if we make flying more expensive, then that utility has a little bit less value. Since speed would cost less, more development costs could level it higher or be devoted to other abilities. Maybe the character will not feel like she sacrificed utility if she picks speed like she really wanted to in the first place.

(when I say development costs I don't know what currency is used, it could be player time/experience, it could actually be a points system, or it could be something else entirely. I'm not too concerned with the tender used to pay for said costs, only that they are easier or harder to level depending on the utility of the ability)

This would be difficult to balance, but hopefully would avoid the 'everybody has flight because it's the best, whether it fits in your character design or not' phenomenon.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I disagree that Swinging everywhere, to the point of having mid-air anchor points that look ridiculous, is a necessity. It just isn't. Case in point, CoX didn't have swinging AT ALL, and CoX made out just fine as such. Freedom Force didn't have it either. I just don't buy that. Freedom Force DID have a Wall Crawling power, which, shocker, didn't do anything for you if there was no wall to crawl on. Super Speed in CoX had limitations that made it very difficult to get vertical movement with it. They didn't just hack it so you could "run" on thin air as a kluge because it was "necessary".

We know there will be a swinging power, so declaring it to be unnecessary doesn't help the debate. MWM has also mentioned a desire to allow superspeed to run up vertical surfaces, so ditto for that.

Heck, in CoH superjump allowed you to change direction in mid-air. And superspeed provided a magical stealth element. So it's not s though CoH was all about realistic travel powers.

Bottom line is that fun should trump realism. If one person tells me that swinging in CoT is frigging awesome and another starts listing why swinging couldn't and shouldn't work, because physics, then I'll vote with the former every time.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Bottom line is that fun should trump realism. If one person tells me that swinging in CoT is frigging awesome and another starts listing why swinging couldn't and shouldn't work, because physics, then I'll vote with the former every time.

As the nitpicky person who would vote that "anchorless" swinging is dumb I would likely just choose not to use the power myself and/or complain about it here in the forums. I'd never bother wasting my time chatting to strangers in the game about it.

P.S. Now if I actually know the person who's using it in the game then I might give them an earful just for the heck of it. But like I said I wouldn't bother someone I don't know about it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I also didn't care for the "Go to trainer to get power" :p OMG! Just let us open a new window to get the new power, skill. Do not try to do what CoH did and make every game mechanic something part of the story. Like enhancements. Again. Lame :p The auction house. Lame! :p
Interesting. I can't disagree more.
In my opinion, those were strengths. I have played games at both ends of the extremes and I have to honestly say that the ones who do not sacrifice immersion for convenience have more staying power and player involvement and less temporary players and elitist jerks.

Auction house and enhancements were great.

How they made them part of the game lore, sucked. "Here mighty villian! Bid on my invention! Let me, the hero, help you take over the world, for money!" :p

Enhancements. "To make myself more powerful, I need these enhancements! Never mind what our origin may be!"

"Oh! Look! I gained a level! I better run off to the trainer!" Something you never hear in a comic book :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

How they made them part of the game lore, sucked. "Here mighty villian! Bid on my invention! Let me, the hero, help you take over the world, for money!" :p

Enhancements. "To make myself more powerful, I need these enhancements! Never mind what our origin may be!"

I have to agree with you there. In my personal opinion, There never should have been an auction house in CoX, and the lore behind inspirations and enhancements did not support a market. It's almost like a market and auction house were forced into the game just because that's what MMO's had to have. Not because it fit or made sense.

I would prefer we didn't have a market or auction house in CoT either, for the same reasons; but we have been told we will have them. And we'll have crafting too, even though we won't have anything like a crafting skill. So why bother crafting at all? Especially if we're not actually "crafting" anything, like gear or weapons or armor. I got the impression MWM never really questioned why they are doing some things before they decided to do them. If CoX had it, by golly, we will too.

Brand X wrote:

"Oh! Look! I gained a level! I better run off to the trainer!" Something you never hear in a comic book :p

Well, we certainly never heard of a comic book hero "gaining a level" so if that's your beef, I guess we agree.

But if you are talking about a comic book hero needing to go to the trainer to hone his or her skills and powers and to become stronger, then I will have to point you to the uncountable examples found in just about every comic book there is.

the X-Men have the Danger Room,
Doctor Strange has the Ancient One,
Tony Stark has an entire complex devoted to training Iron Man,
Oliver Queen and his team are regularly found training in the Green Arrow HQ
Iron Fist learned about his fist powers throughout the series from allies and enemies,
The Fantastic Four have a training room in their tower,
the list could go on.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
notears
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Brand X wrote:
How they made them part of the game lore, sucked. "Here mighty villian! Bid on my invention! Let me, the hero, help you take over the world, for money!" :p
Enhancements. "To make myself more powerful, I need these enhancements! Never mind what our origin may be!"
I have to agree with you there. In my personal opinion, There never should have been an auction house in CoX, and the lore behind inspirations and enhancements did not support a market. It's almost like a market and auction house were forced into the game just because that's what MMO's had to have. Not because it fit or made sense.
I would prefer we didn't have a market or auction house in CoT either, for the same reasons; but we have been told we will have them. And we'll have crafting too, even though we won't have anything like a crafting skill. So why bother crafting at all? Especially if we're not actually "crafting" anything, like gear or weapons or armor. I got the impression MWM never really questioned why they are doing some things before they decided to do them. If CoX had it, by golly, we will too.
Brand X wrote:
"Oh! Look! I gained a level! I better run off to the trainer!" Something you never hear in a comic book :p
Well, we certainly never heard of a comic book hero "gaining a level" so if that's your beef, I guess we agree.
But if you are talking about a comic book hero needing to go to the trainer to hone his or her skills and powers and to become stronger, then I will have to point you to the uncountable examples found in just about every comic book there is.
the X-Men have the Danger Room,
Doctor Strange has the Ancient One,
Tony Stark has an entire complex devoted to training Iron Man,
Oliver Queen and his team are regularly found training in the Green Arrow HQ
Iron Fist learned about his fist powers throughout the series from allies and enemies,
The Fantastic Four have a training room in their tower,
the list could go on.

Well the thing with that is that, we're not just playing heroes here, we're playing villains.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Huckleberry
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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Well the thing with that is that, we're not just playing heroes here, we're playing villains.

huh?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
notears
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

notears wrote:
Well the thing with that is that, we're not just playing heroes here, we're playing villains.
huh?

Well your whole thing about oh look at all these heroes who go to someone else to train doesn't make sense when half the game player base aren't going to be heroes.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

notears
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In all honest though... I

In all honest though... I think it would make more sense if this training place was the store. Currency fluff wise from what I hear, is going to be like it was in CoX. Fluff wise it's not really currency but rather resources that you've gathered over the years. I think the stores should be the same. You don't exactly go into a store but rather a wise kung-fu master's dojo and he's all like "Why do you deserve my mentorship?", or you enter a mob boss' office and he's all like "I ain't tellin' you nothin'!!!" and you buying his stuff is represented as you interrogating him, as you spend your "reputation" or "secrets you know about him that he doesn't want people to find out" and then he's all like "OKAY! OKAY I'LL TALK!!!". You could have a bunch of store's like this with many different flavours.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

notears
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

notears wrote:
Well the thing with that is that, we're not just playing heroes here, we're playing villains.
huh?

I mean... how many famous villains train in a training room? The only people I know who have to be seen in a training montage to be seen getting new powers are Lex and Kingpin, and they do that in their own lairs.

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I also didn't care for the "Go to trainer to get power" :p OMG! Just let us open a new window to get the new power, skill. Do not try to do what CoH did and make every game mechanic something part of the story. Like enhancements. Again. Lame :p The auction house. Lame! :p

I completely disagree - these things create social hubs where players naturally gather. Seeing as how COT will be an MMO, these things will be important to the game.

Cobalt Azurean
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I don't personally think

I don't personally think everything has to involve immersion. This is a game (and a business) that's being a developed and different players like different things, so they're going to develop content, in whatever form, to appease or that appeals to them. There are people that enjoy Market PvP, or that enjoy crafting, or building SG bases, or traditional PvP, or min/maxing, or a place to RP without distraction, or just regular ol' PvE content. The more content-widgets they can develop within their means that appeal to a broader audience, the more people that could potentially play, the more money they could potentially make to create even more content and so on and so forth. So bring on the crafting, the auction house, the content. BRING. IT. ON.

notears
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I also didn't care for the "Go to trainer to get power" :p OMG! Just let us open a new window to get the new power, skill. Do not try to do what CoH did and make every game mechanic something part of the story. Like enhancements. Again. Lame :p The auction house. Lame! :p
I completely disagree - these things create social hubs where players naturally gather. Seeing as how COT will be an MMO, these things will be important to the game.

Yeah but we an make a hub with stores can't we? We all need to buy stuff

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

Brand X
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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I also didn't care for the "Go to trainer to get power" :p OMG! Just let us open a new window to get the new power, skill. Do not try to do what CoH did and make every game mechanic something part of the story. Like enhancements. Again. Lame :p The auction house. Lame! :p
I completely disagree - these things create social hubs where players naturally gather. Seeing as how COT will be an MMO, these things will be important to the game.

The players will gather in an area regardless. Pocket D was a hub not because of what it sold there (it was out of the way) but because that's where players decided to gather.

Same with Atlas Park. People gathered there because it was a starting area, we had the same spots (trainer) in all the other maps, and people didn't gather all around them at all.

People will find a place to gather, no matter what.

I feel just having a window popping up is the better way to do the auction house and level ups. Crafting, that can be done in a super hero base. Library seems just dumb :p

Brand X
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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I don't personally think everything has to involve immersion. This is a game (and a business) that's being a developed and different players like different things, so they're going to develop content, in whatever form, to appease or that appeals to them. There are people that enjoy Market PvP, or that enjoy crafting, or building SG bases, or traditional PvP, or min/maxing, or a place to RP without distraction, or just regular ol' PvE content. The more content-widgets they can develop within their means that appeal to a broader audience, the more people that could potentially play, the more money they could potentially make to create even more content and so on and so forth. So bring on the crafting, the auction house, the content. BRING. IT. ON.

I didn't say, don't bring it. I said, don't make it an NPC standing around the city. :p Don't make it a big obvious area for the auction house.

What I'm saying is, click O (or whatever key) and a window pops up for you to do these things.