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Let's Argue: Endgame

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notears
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Let's Argue: Endgame

I completely forgot to make one of these

Doctor Tyche
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Muahahahaahaaaaaa!

Muahahahaahaaaaaa!

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Endgame = New Character!

Endgame = New Character!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Yeah - I probably going to be

Yeah - I probably going to be a big altaholic as well. I'm the kind of guy who will roll up a bunch of concepts and play them through to try out new power combos and playstyles. Even switching back and forth from night to night if I feel like playing a certain role.

THAT SAID - I also enjoyed revisiting my fully-powered characters in CoH to do raids/task forces/trials and the like - especially when the crafting and incarnate systems were released (had to kit out my max level toons!). So if we have endgame raids/events, I'd love to do that too.

notears
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Endgame = New Character!
Be Well!
Fireheart

Well hopefully not forever.... I'd hate to have to stop playing a character just because they hit 50

notears
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Muahahahaahaaaaaa!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ....what are we laughing about?

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The game never ends.

The game never ends.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Endgame, your characters

Endgame, your characters have to get married or get relationships and care for offspring..... endgame City of Titans - Be a Parent

:P

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I liked that in CoX you could

I liked that in CoX you could level up your toon with SOs, and people mostly didn't notice or care, and then you could try to work your way up and get some IOs later, maybe a few sets, Procs, and Uniques with some frankenslotting, etc after that, then slowly eventually move up to Purples, if you actually cared about them. I would like to see that in CoT. Not a mindless grind for swag, but a reason to keep playing a toon beyond level 50 so as to be able to upgrade to better stuff over a longer period of time.

What makes gear grinds feel grindy, to me, is not that there's better gear, or that such gear is hard to get, but the people who act like they MUST get it right away so they can START playing their toon in earnest, when 99% of the time you STOP playing a toon once it's "done" in terms of gear, at least in PvE.

And as for PvPers who want the best gear now so they can dominate in PvP, I would either sell it to them for money or make them grind for it and not apologize about that. I mean, getting better at a legit sport like golf or tennis or basketball requires many many hours spent in the gym getting stronger and so forth, so this is no different. If you want to be the most well equipped in PvP, you might have to work for it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. PvPers can sort themselves into different "fair" matchups in some way if they care that much about it, and if they choose not to, that's on them then.

Edit: It might not be a bad idea to slowly introduce a small number of new gear pieces at a time every few months or so, so as to keep the power creep going at a slow but steady pace. I think that would be better than just dumping a whole new set of "best" gear into the game all at once.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Huckleberry
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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

Endgame, your characters have to get married or get relationships and care for offspring..... endgame City of Titans - Be a Parent
:P

It would actually be pretty cool if you could breed new powersets.

... if you worked for the Vril and participated in their eugenics program, that is.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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End game for me was respec

End game for me was respec trials as I figured out mechanics more intimately and realized that certain abilities were better/worse with patches. Rolling a new character every other week to about level 25ish and seeing how they performed with SO's on concept builds like a Defender tanks and knockback builds with enough distance to cause significant fall damage...

Mostly though, I just hung out on the barge in Bloody Bay, and trapped people in the big crate with caltrops :Y

Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.

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Stalker wrote:
Stalker wrote:

End game for me was respec trials as I figured out mechanics more intimately and realized that certain abilities were better/worse with patches. Rolling a new character every other week to about level 25ish and seeing how they performed with SO's on concept builds like a Defender tanks and knockback builds with enough distance to cause significant fall damage...
Mostly though, I just hung out on the barge in Bloody Bay, and trapped people in the big crate with caltrops :Y

I got tp foed one time while I was flying back to my base into one of those crates. Got mined to death...

As mad as I was about that, it was ingenious and afterwards, it was fun getting my revenge on that blaster

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I expect at launch endgame

I expect at launch endgame will be a new character, but I am sure eventually there will be high/max level "stuff" to do beyond just tricking out our level 50's.

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CoH had end game. It was the

CoH had end game. It was the OMG I HAVE POWER powers. :p

People seemed to enjoy it.

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If there will be power creep

If there will be power creep as a result of endgame content, I would like to see the same power creep in our Paragons and/or a reason in the lore why they don't get it.

In other words, the more familiar we are with he Paragons in the beginning, the more transparent it will become later they do or do not have the same level of powers we will get. So some planning in the beginning and less exposure to the Paragons' actual powersets will have better long-term results. At least from a lore perspective.

Maybe some of the paragons will be forever established at a level range, that would be cool, actually. So we will be able to say that we are now more powerful than so and so famous hero or villain. Maybe some paragons level along with us, or started higher but levels more slowly so we catch up. And if we ever have another Cimerora/incarnates style power jump, it would be cool if any paragons would go through the same trials as we do to get the power boosts, thus preserving the lore that they are on the tip of the power curve along with us.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I like the fact that CoT is

I like the fact that CoT is to be beyond alt-friendly, but personally I hope there is decent attention to non-grindy engame. I tended to focus on two or at most three favorite heroes in CoH and really build them to the nines and then take them out on the town. It would kind of suck for me if the endgame was only "make another alt".

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Endgame = New Character!

Same here, though that didn't mean I never played my 50s in the old game. My two mains (one blue, one red) did every bit of new content that came out (regardless of level, thanks to Ouroboros), except for a couple of the later iTrials that I didn't find enjoyable. And those two mains also tended to go for any new badges that came out.

As long as I can access lower level content with my 50s in CoT, I expect to be much the same. I'd like to resist the badging bug, but I suspect that that virus is still in my blood from the old game and will instantly revive itself when CoT launches.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Despite participating in City

Despite participating in City of Heroes from the Closed Beta phase to the day they shut down the servers, I only ever had two level 50s. My Robotics/Traps Mastermind and a Dual Blades/Willpower Scrapper.

Endgame???? What Endgame??? You mean there was more to the game than an endless stream of alts????

I never knew... I spent all my time experimenting with different characters and almost endless respecs. Once Mission Architect went live, that become my second obsession. I'm assuming CoT will be the same. Especially as time goes on and the game deepens in both storytelling and cosmetic content.

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I know it is not possible but

I know it is not possible but wouldn't be kind of cool that when your character reached max you could have it uploaded to be on display somewhere in the game? Like for instance have them seated at a table in the CoT equivalent of Pocket D.

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

I know it is not possible but wouldn't be kind of cool that when your character reached max you could have it uploaded to be on display somewhere in the game? Like for instance have them seated at a table in the CoT equivalent of Pocket D.

Only when you are offline, of course, but yes that would be pretty awesome.

I can't imagine it being too difficult to cycle through a random selection of avatar models. I suppose the big issue would be whether it would attempt to render them as a fully detailed character model or if there was a way to minimize the detail to something more akin to an average NPC. I say this with the recent discussion from this thread in mind.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I'm hopefull for a about

I'm hopeful for a flashback/Ouroboros system to replay content.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Fallout1 wrote:
I know it is not possible but wouldn't be kind of cool that when your character reached max you could have it uploaded to be on display somewhere in the game? Like for instance have them seated at a table in the CoT equivalent of Pocket D.
Only when you are offline, of course, but yes that would be pretty awesome.
I can't imagine it being too difficult to cycle through a random selection of avatar models. I suppose the big issue would be whether it would attempt to render them as a fully detailed character model or if there was a way to minimize the detail to something more akin to an average NPC. I say this with the recent discussion from this thread in mind.

I guess as a cycling NPC thing could work. And they could be in specific spots (the nightclub, at the police station talking to an officer, or in jail for a villian, at a library, maybe signing autographs in the park.)

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Heh, I guess I'm the odd man

Heh, I guess I'm the odd man out on this one, but my focusing on two or three alts was always mitigated by the fact that I'm a casual few-hours-a-week player, so I should be ok even if actual endgame is more of an afterthought...

...unless Doc's "Muahaha" meant that it won't be just an afterthought :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Heh, I guess I'm the odd man out on this one, but my focusing on two or three alts was always mitigated by the fact that I'm a casual few-hours-a-week player, so I should be ok even if actual endgame is more of an afterthought...
...unless Doc's "Muahaha" meant that it won't be just an afterthought :).

I think they have mentioned that they plan to have endgame "raids". Though, considering the max level at launch will be lower than the actual cap, we will probably not see the "endgame" stuff till sometime after they raise the max level to the cap.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

I think they have mentioned that they plan to have endgame "raids". Though, considering the max level at launch will be lower than the actual cap, we will probably not see the "endgame" stuff till sometime after they raise the max level to the cap.

It's not that I'm a fan of raids, I'd just like some content for high-level heroes. I did a lot of the Incarnate and New Dark Astoria/Mot content solo, or duo with my wife or son, for example.

But you're right, "endgame" won't be for a good while post-launch anyway, and as adaptable as MWM is trying to make CoT, they should be able to come up with it as needed.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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End game, I wouldn't

End game, I wouldn't considered needed until we get to what is going to be considered a more likely high level. We know 30 isn't it. 50 might be it, and maybe more after that, maybe.

Taskforce like things however, always fun to do :)

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i kinda want the flaskback to

i kinda want the flashback to be unlocked once, players having an option which theme to fit their playstyle.

Meaning, MWM can eventually add more and more Flashback Themes.

Ex:

1) Showing the Wrongs, and making them right (Spirits)

2) Travel back, Protect or Kill the Cancer (Tech Based)

etc...

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

i kinda want the flashback to be unlocked once, players having an option which theme to fit their playstyle.
Meaning, MWM can eventually add more and more Flashback Themes.
Ex:
1) Showing the Wrongs, and making them right (Spirits)
2) Travel back, Protect or Kill the Cancer (Tech Based)
etc...

Don't forget the Street level hero going into his lair to run a simulation of that day to see if he missed something or simply going to his desk to remember a day long past

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Though, I'd personally like

Though, I'd personally like an endgame that can apply to a lot of people's wants. Want to PvP? There should be an epic level PvP zone, maybe even an epic PvP tournament. Do you like solo combat? Epic level tips, newspaper missions, contacts and eventually an epic level zone. Like to group up? Epic level raids, and of course to make you want to keep playing, a new rewards system that replaces XP when you can't level anymore, that can be used to buy a lot of things, you could use it to build your own super special awesome power, you could spend it on new powers, special enhancements and refinements, just whatever you want!! I'd think that would be easier for the devs too, because instead of making a whole new zone, you could just put in more contacts to choose from or epic level raids, or new clues, or new powers just for endgame. I mean I wouldn't expect this at the start of the game but... once the game adds levels 40 and 50 to the game? I definatly want to see something like this!!!

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

I know it is not possible but wouldn't be kind of cool that when your character reached max you could have it uploaded to be on display somewhere in the game? Like for instance have them seated at a table in the CoT equivalent of Pocket D.

Um...No. I have never been a fan of these kind of ideas. Whether it is statues or billboards or seated at a picnic table in the park. This is a shared reality, not a console game. I don't want to see it littered with representations of other players who happened to finish a particular task force or reached max level. You are a hero in your own mind, not in mine. Just as I am a hero in my own mind and not in yours. I'm sure no one wants to see a statue of my main character overlooking some isolated neighborhood park or seated on a bench beneath the Phoenix. Same holds true from this side of the equation.

I know each person wants to see their own character memorialized and made famous, but that's simple narcissism. Now if someone comes into the forum saying, "I know my characters will never amount to anything, but I'd love to see a gallery of other player's top characters on display with a bio of their achievements," then I might be willing to take them seriously. Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. Depends on how they word their suggestion.

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Right, Immortalize your

Right, Immortalize your character in your personal base. I don't believe the general public cares who YOU are. Perhaps that's selfish of them.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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We could probably make it so

We could probably make it so that your statue is only visible to you

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Adding something like TSW's

Adding something like TSW's museum, which are personal instances, that shows of a characters achievements (is the player has invested to set it all up) wouldn't be a bad idea. Now if that is to be done as a part of ones personal lair or a separate instance is another question.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

I know it is not possible but wouldn't be kind of cool that when your character reached max you could have it uploaded to be on display somewhere in the game? Like for instance have them seated at a table in the CoT equivalent of Pocket D.

Um...No. I have never been a fan of these kind of ideas. Whether it is statues or billboards or seated at a picnic table in the park. This is a shared reality, not a console game. I don't want to see it littered with representations of other players who happened to finish a particular task force or reached max level. You are a hero in your own mind, not in mine. Just as I am a hero in my own mind and not in yours. I'm sure no one wants to see a statue of my main character overlooking some isolated neighborhood park or seated on a bench beneath the Phoenix. Same holds true from this side of the equation.
I know each person wants to see their own character memorialized and made famous, but that's simple narcissism. Now if someone comes into the forum saying, "I know my characters will never amount to anything, but I'd love to see a gallery of other player's top characters on display with a bio of their achievements," then I might be willing to take them seriously. Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. Depends on how they word their suggestion.

I think there's a big difference between erecting a statue and sitting in a booth in a lounge. I don't think Fallout1 was asking for an honored position or memorial. If we're going to have to have filler characters for backround atmosphere anyway, why not make those characters other people's? I like the idea. It makes me feel a part of a greater community, a real community, not just one in my mind, but in others' as well.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Greyhawk wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:
I know it is not possible but wouldn't be kind of cool that when your character reached max you could have it uploaded to be on display somewhere in the game? Like for instance have them seated at a table in the CoT equivalent of Pocket D.
Um...No. I have never been a fan of these kind of ideas. Whether it is statues or billboards or seated at a picnic table in the park. This is a shared reality, not a console game. I don't want to see it littered with representations of other players who happened to finish a particular task force or reached max level. You are a hero in your own mind, not in mine. Just as I am a hero in my own mind and not in yours. I'm sure no one wants to see a statue of my main character overlooking some isolated neighborhood park or seated on a bench beneath the Phoenix. Same holds true from this side of the equation.
I know each person wants to see their own character memorialized and made famous, but that's simple narcissism. Now if someone comes into the forum saying, "I know my characters will never amount to anything, but I'd love to see a gallery of other player's top characters on display with a bio of their achievements," then I might be willing to take them seriously. Maybe. Probably not, but maybe. Depends on how they word their suggestion.
I think there's a big difference between erecting a statue and sitting in a booth in a lounge. I don't think Fallout1 was asking for an honored position or memorial. If we're going to have to have filler characters for background atmosphere anyway, why not make those characters other people's? I like the idea. It makes me feel a part of a greater community, a real community, not just one in my mind, but in others' as well.

This is exactly what I meant. I wouldn't want a statue. I just thought as characters reach end game and you kind of retire them, it is a nice way of celebrating with others who reach the top. And as we said, it is just a background npc thing not a "Hey everyone, look at me". It could just be an overwhelming concept since the amount of characters would get so large but if you had different spots around the city for these cycling npc's to be, it could be a nice little celebration. I'll admit I mostly played solo with a little team play and didn't get many toons to the end. It was just an idea. I understand it wouldn't be for everyone.

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If I happened to encounter

If I happened to encounter one of my 50s when playing another character, I'd finally be able to get a screenshot of them together, which I could never do in the old city.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I created a photoshop image

I created a photoshop image of a lot of my characters once. I took an area of the city and took a screenshot of it during the day and at night. Then I created an image of the scene half light and half dark and had my heroes on the light half and villains on the dark. It came out pretty cool. Unfortunately the computer I had that on fried and I lost it.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Fallout1 wrote:
I know it is not possible but wouldn't be kind of cool that when your character reached max you could have it uploaded to be on display somewhere in the game? Like for instance have them seated at a table in the CoT equivalent of Pocket D.
Um...No. I have never been a fan of these kind of ideas. Whether it is statues or billboards or seated at a picnic table in the park. This is a shared reality, not a console game. I don't want to see it littered with representations of other players who happened to finish a particular task force or reached max level. You are a hero in your own mind, not in mine. Just as I am a hero in my own mind and not in yours.

I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't like frivolous grandstanding, especially if it is something that everyone will end up 'achieving'.

Now what would you have to say about a scenario where someone plays one character a lot. I mean they show their face everywhere or they have a persistent presence in a particular area. Word gets out that this hero/villain is a pest (from either view point of good/evil) and need to be dealt with soon. Maybe a street contact tells you about some 'Fallout1' guy that you should look into and you get an instanced mission to settle it. We will all be on one server, MWM can pull up the associated character model and maybe exact (or roughly approximated) powers. Then you can duke it out. Then maybe the next day you see that actual player running around in the city, adding to the living & breathing aspect of the city. Maybe you engage in some PvP to set the record straight. Maybe you hit up a conversation about the mission they appeared in (could lead to a team up or an epic showdown).

A simple statue (hologram or whatever) or random NPCs just cursing/praising your name as you walk by isn't compelling in the long run. Those statues will get knocked down for the next flavor of the week. It would become a meaningless gesture (but you could screenshot it).

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I would be absolutely dead

I would be absolutely dead set against the game putting my name and likeness on an NPC for others to beat up.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Why?

Why?
Would you avoid all PvP too?

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I would avoid all PvP on

I would avoid all PvP on principle.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I would not avoid PvP. In

I would not avoid PvP. In fact I enjoy PvP. But my characters are mine. I control their story. They can't be hijacked for someone else's joyride.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Alright, that's fair concern.

Alright, that's fair concern. Maybe they could have a checkbox in some menu that lets you opt out of sharing your character's likeness.

IIRC characters that you create in most/any/all online games are the property of the company. There is usually some fine print in the ToS.

To explain away my character's nocturnal exploits (i.e. when I am logged off), I might employ a multiple personality. Or maybe subconscious/spirit/demon possession that can only take hold when asleep (phases of the moon, day/night cycle). Or maybe he gets tuned (ala Dark City).

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

...I wouldn't want a statue. I just thought as characters reach end game and you kind of retire them, it is a nice way of celebrating with others who reach the top. And as we said, it is just a background npc thing not a "Hey everyone, look at me". It could just be an overwhelming concept since the amount of characters would get so large but if you had different spots around the city for these cycling npc's to be, it could be a nice little celebration. I'll admit I mostly played solo with a little team play and didn't get many toons to the end. It was just an idea. I understand it wouldn't be for everyone.

Planet10 wrote:

...Now what would you have to say about a scenario where someone plays one character a lot. I mean they show their face everywhere or they have a persistent presence in a particular area. Word gets out that this hero/villain is a pest (from either view point of good/evil) and need to be dealt with soon. Maybe a street contact tells you about some 'Fallout1' guy that you should look into and you get an instanced mission to settle it. We will all be on one server, MWM can pull up the associated character model and maybe exact (or roughly approximated) powers. Then you can duke it out. Then maybe the next day you see that actual player running around in the city, adding to the living & breathing aspect of the city. Maybe you engage in some PvP to set the record straight. Maybe you hit up a conversation about the mission they appeared in (could lead to a team up or an epic showdown).

No, and No.

Both of these ideas are simple narcissistic grandstanding. "I wanna be famous! I want everybody to know my name!"

Do either of you really want to see my character sitting on a park bench as an NPC or opposing you at the climax of a storyline? Even if you do, I don't want to see yours.

When you are playing and controlling your character going about whatever ingame ritual you like to follow, that's wonderful. That's how it should be.

But for the game engine to snatch up your character and control it (or plant it somewhere as backdrop) is a different animal altogether. I abhor PvP, so naturally I don't want to find myself in opposition to an NPC version of another player's character. Talk about completely pointless! (At least from my perspective.) If I wanted to fight other players I would PvP. Since I don't like PvP, why on earth would I want to oppose an NPC version of someone's character?

There is ONE exception: Mission Architect.

If you design your own missions in a nice little five or six mission story arc and use them as a stage for an NPC version of your character (either as helper or opponent, or perhaps as a helper that becomes an opponent!) that would be something I would support 100%. Use the Mission Architect to tell me your character's story. I would enjoy that very much. Your character would become an eternal part of the game (within the confines of the Mission Architect) and if your story arc becomes popular enough, everyone will know your name.

But no, I don't want to see an NPC version of your character sitting on a park bench somewhere (or a barstool, or whatever) and I definitely don't want to see an NPC version of your character in a regular game mission. Just as I am certain no one wants to see mine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B000APIPZC?ref_=pe_584750_33951330

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Do either of you really want to see my character sitting on a park bench as an NPC

Actually yes.

I think a park bench would be a bit random and weird for a costumed hero to be loitering; but Fallout1's original idea of a Hero/or villain hangout like Pocket D would certainly be more fitting. And like any NPC, it wouldn't be having its name and health bar splashed up for the world to see either. It would return the character name when highlighted, like any other NPC, however. I would like to see your lvl 50 character, Greyhawk, along with twenty or so other lvl 50 characters from other people, all milling around.

It would be nice to know that if there are other costumed freaks in this world, they are the costumed freaks of other players, and only those of other players. (except for the Paragons, of course; there's always the Paragons.)


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I'd rather see the avatars of

I'd rather see the avatars of players actively playing the game, rather than their afk cardboard cutout equivalent. Just use some of the world's side characters or generic NPCs.

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Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

I'd rather see the avatars of players actively playing the game, rather than their afk cardboard cutout equivalent.

I think that goes without saying.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Alright, that's fair concern. Maybe they could have a checkbox in some menu that lets you opt out of sharing your character's likeness.

I think it's better to use an opt-in system for this kind of stuff so that only those who wants to share their toons in such a way does so, preferably to be able to set it at both character and account level.

From what I have read/heard there won't be any real difficulty for MWM to generate random supers in CoT to populate the world so I don't really see the big advantage this would bring. Sure, it would most likely be a fun thing for many people but not sure it will be worth it.

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Going a bit off topic, but

Going a bit off topic, but what about an optional SG base room/setting where offline PC/alts can be displayed? Only folks in the base would be affected, which addresses those concerns. I would advise deactivating the feature during any base raid equivalent of course.

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I don't want to see other

I don't want to see other players character's either. I agree with Greyhawk.

Where's the standard when doing this, because I can't possibly see where this player base as a whole has one.

Sorry, but reading this forum and CoH forum, while not 100%, there's enough people who think "OMG! Everyone's a special little snowflake. Nothing can ever be wrong with their character."

Which is not true at all. However, telling people out right, your character sucks, is considered mean by many but I don't want to see those sucky characters running around as NPCs, even if they're created by some great player, a real gentleman/lady among the players, the nicest person you'll ever meet. Sorry, but no.

No matter how interesting you may make the concept I just may not care to see your ISIS Superhero in cliche turban with a bomb strapped around him saving the day. I don't want to see your recreation of any President running around saving the day. I don't want to see most joke characters running around by players as it is, I sure don't want to see them running around as an NPC.

Planet10
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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Now what would you have to say about a scenario where someone plays one character a lot. I mean they show their face everywhere or they have a persistent presence in a particular area.

There is a particular reason why I prefaced it this way. Let's say there is a minimum play time threshold of 24 hours a week (in game play time) to even activate this feature. The character is going to be out there and visible to everyone, so it is fair to say that you might have run across this guy. The contact (or wanted poster) would be in the area that is most frequently 'impacted' by this character. In no way should it be part of a main storyline quest chain (no one has to accept the call for help). It is just a one-off side quest thing. It is an opportunity for MWM to leverage the living essence of the game (the player base). And it is a free and ever evolving part of the experience.

The character would have to be out there in the game getting a lot of exposure. It isn't some joke character that sits in the catalog of supers that only gets brought out of its gimp box for show & tell once a year. If the character is that objectionable and offensive, it will get reported by someone (ala the minimum play time exposure). If it is someone trying to troll the playerbase, that is a lot of work to get into a side mission that a player never has to accept. It is also a long time for a troll to play without getting themselves into trouble without getting reported.

One of the reasons I suggested this type of mission is that MWM can't possibly be able to craft a unique play experience for every single character. The branching effect gets out of hand quite quickly. The "you forge your own destiny" types of games need a boatload of scripted content, so the gaiting mechanisms are usually front loaded. Essentially, your character sets the path from day one. In a game like CoT where you can be any Archetype/Specialization and can have uncertain alignments (good/gray/bad/etc) and change things up mid stream (alignments and the opportunity to swap Specializations), how can they possibly deliver on a unique play experience without organically sourced content?

If this side mission thing isn't your cup of soup, don't accept the mission. If you don't want your character co-opted then check the checkbox. If you are an alt-o-holic you will be playing so many different characters that none of yours will be in consideration anyways.

Hey, maybe it could be a mirror universe thing where you get to fight a copy (or alternate or opposite) of you as a side effect of some main story plot gone wrong (or right).

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I never retire any character,

I never retire any character, so to me there's not really any endgame.

(insert pithy comment here)

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I would like to see SOME max

I would like to see SOME max-level appropriate content. Missions, not just mega-team-armageddon Taskforce content. At that level, I could really enjoy a non-hectic pace, with some good story elements and a bit of thought-provocative plot. The Incarnate-unlocking arc, with Mender Ramiel was pretty good.

I enjoyed the revamped Dark Astoria, with the 'solo' path to Incarnation (much more fun with a small team), but that zone was thoroughly locked into its own Lore. You could run the Dark Astoria story, or... nothing.

What would be particularly interesting is if a (nigh?) max-level character unlocked... a sort of 'overlay', a phase, or hidden layer of complexity that covered the whole city. You're ultra-powerful, so now you can see all of those little fights you used to engage in from a new perspective. Now you can see where the Real Threats are, and fight them.

A 'Flashback' system that allowed you to replay/revisit those old missions and do them (perhaps) differently, or not, and to try out those missions you missed, would also be great.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I would like to see SOME max-level appropriate content. Missions, not just mega-team-armageddon Taskforce content. At that level, I could really enjoy a non-hectic pace, with some good story elements and a bit of thought-provocative plot. The Incarnate-unlocking arc, with Mender Ramiel was pretty good.
I enjoyed the revamped Dark Astoria, with the 'solo' path to Incarnation (much more fun with a small team), but that zone was thoroughly locked into its own Lore. You could run the Dark Astoria story, or... nothing.
What would be particularly interesting is if a (nigh?) max-level character unlocked... a sort of 'overlay', a phase, or hidden layer of complexity that covered the whole city. You're ultra-powerful, so now you can see all of those little fights you used to engage in from a new perspective. Now you can see where the Real Threats are, and fight them.
A 'Flashback' system that allowed you to replay/revisit those old missions and do them (perhaps) differently, or not, and to try out those missions you missed, would also be great.
Be Well!
Fireheart

THAT was what I meant in my earlier post. Fireheart said it better :).

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Radical Idea ... "endgame"

Radical Idea ... "endgame" content is inherently TEAM oriented content.

Mothership Raids
Hamidon Raids
Task Forces
Strike Forces
Tanker Tuesdays
Incarnate Trials

All of these activities are (okay, were) essentially multiplayer content, rather than solo content.


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Soloable end-game content, to

Soloable end-game content, to me, would be comparable to the Signature Story Arcs, the new Dark Astoria reboot stuff, etc. And for the record I'm all for that.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I wouldn't mind some

I wouldn't mind some "Flashback" missions, either; in which we run lower-level missions as if we were that lower level and by doing so we have some costume item, keepsake or something to put in our lair to remember it by. In our character's personal history they would have fit between some of the other mission arcs we did while we were actually leveling. I am reminded of all the flashbacks that occur to Oliver Queen in the television show Arrow. Who knew you could fit so much into five years?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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At endgame I'd also like an

At endgame I'd also like an opportunity at a Rorschach-like experience where you blend into society and find the cracks in the system. I would imagine that wouldn't be too practical in a game system, but still worth mentioning.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I enjoyed the revamped Dark Astoria, with the 'solo' path to Incarnation (much more fun with a small team), but that zone was thoroughly locked into its own Lore. You could run the Dark Astoria story, or... nothing.

What would be particularly interesting is if a (nigh?) max-level character unlocked... a sort of 'overlay', a phase, or hidden layer of complexity that covered the whole city. You're ultra-powerful, so now you can see all of those little fights you used to engage in from a new perspective. Now you can see where the Real Threats are, and fight them.

I very strongly agree on this point. I'd love to see an endgame design that re-connects max level players with everyone else, doubles the value of all of the devs' prior content work, and encourages us to experience any missed storylines or zones. I don't mean that this should be the entire endgame, but I'd really enjoy an endgame that is full of options for advancement:

Overlay [as in Fireheart's idea] that significantly reuses large parts of existing content / Partial reuse of existing zones to contain new missions / New zones

Solo / small team / full team / multi-team leagues

PvE / indirect PvP / direct PvP

Task Forces and Raids that can be pugged, so everyone has a chance to try these activities, not just top supergroups with voice chat

Crafting / Badge-hunting / Roleplay / UGC: User-generated content tools for missions and bases / other non-combat

Expanding list of interesting powerset combinations to feed Alt-itis / Expanding crafting options to feed "gear" enhancing and set bonus tweaking (as with IOs)

Rewards fair and proportional to risk and time, with no massive bonus to one type of gameplay - and no grindy rewards exclusive to just one activity.

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Just don't make the mistake

Just don't make the mistake of making all the team content, also solo content, unless the players put some work into their characters builds and even then, some team content should just be out of reach.

Is it the type of enemy/enemies that Superman would need the JL's help for, shouldn't be soloable by a player :p

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you just reminded me of my

you just reminded me of my suggestion for one way to reuse content in the endgame.

https://cityoftitans.com/forum/end-game-hit-replay

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I think CoH got that balance

I think CoH got that soloable/team content balance almost right -

All regular story and side missions soloable by nearly any powerset combo; if too difficult, one could just wait a few levels or call for help in chat. If CoT has a difficulty slider that can not only increase but also decrease versus "normal", I have no objections. Still haven't found a game that handles spawn size scaling to team size as well as CoH did, by the way. It even worked rather well in the open world.

I think it's fine to have some non-city zones be "hazardous" for solo hunting, as CoH had. Their open world spawn sizes could default to match a team of two or four, providing extra challenge (and reward) to a soloer...but still easily avoidable through the use of travel powers and stealth for anyone who just wants to go to the hazard zones for instanced missions. If some of these hazard zones are high-level (like CoH's Rikti War Zone), then those larger spawns can create some endgame challenges, such as fighting groups of 3 Rikti bosses, or the elite boss pairs.

Task forces required a team, though some allowed creativity or build tweaking to overcome the minimum team size. I'd like to see an option to start TFs and raids with less than the minimum recommended number of players (with appropriate warning, especially if TF mechanics set a hard limit due to simultaneous objectives). CoT could benefit from this kind of option to bypass the need for "fillers", while creating a fun endgame challenge for some players.

Raids always required a team due to multiple simultaneous objectives or the sheer amount of damage needed. However, I think a few of CoH's incarnate raids could have benefited from a properly scaled-down version, a "lite" version of the raid for a smaller league/team. A few other games have structured their raids in such a manner, such as having 4-player, 8-player, and 16-player versions of the same raid. It's a nice way to handle low-population times, let teams race against each other to complete the raid, and provide a relief valve for any connection/graphics/health problems that cause some players to avoid the full-size raids. I think the CoH raids had limited scaling within a range (like 12-24 for UG, or 8-16 for Lambda), but even so, we often had trouble meeting those minimums. The trials also didn't scale quite right at the lower end, making them unfriendly for pick-up groups that couldn't fill the league, and a big discouraging factor against the auto-queue. Either better tuning or allowing difficulty settings to apply to raids might help in those cases.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Planet10 wrote:
Now what would you have to say about a scenario where someone plays one character a lot. I mean they show their face everywhere or they have a persistent presence in a particular area.
There is a particular reason why I prefaced it this way. Let's say there is a minimum play time threshold of 24 hours a week (in game play time) to even activate this feature. The character is going to be out there and visible to everyone, so it is fair to say that you might have run across this guy. The contact (or wanted poster) would be in the area that is most frequently 'impacted' by this character. In no way should it be part of a main storyline quest chain (no one has to accept the call for help). It is just a one-off side quest thing. It is an opportunity for MWM to leverage the living essence of the game (the player base). And it is a free and ever evolving part of the experience.
The character would have to be out there in the game getting a lot of exposure. It isn't some joke character that sits in the catalog of supers that only gets brought out of its gimp box for show & tell once a year. If the character is that objectionable and offensive, it will get reported by someone (ala the minimum play time exposure). If it is someone trying to troll the playerbase, that is a lot of work to get into a side mission that a player never has to accept. It is also a long time for a troll to play without getting themselves into trouble without getting reported.
One of the reasons I suggested this type of mission is that MWM can't possibly be able to craft a unique play experience for every single character. The branching effect gets out of hand quite quickly. The "you forge your own destiny" types of games need a boatload of scripted content, so the gaiting mechanisms are usually front loaded. Essentially, your character sets the path from day one. In a game like CoT where you can be any Archetype/Specialization and can have uncertain alignments (good/gray/bad/etc) and change things up mid stream (alignments and the opportunity to swap Specializations), how can they possibly deliver on a unique play experience without organically sourced content?
If this side mission thing isn't your cup of soup, don't accept the mission. If you don't want your character co-opted then check the checkbox. If you are an alt-o-holic you will be playing so many different characters that none of yours will be in consideration anyways.
Hey, maybe it could be a mirror universe thing where you get to fight a copy (or alternate or opposite) of you as a side effect of some main story plot gone wrong (or right).

The perfect place for such a story arc is inside the Mission Architect. This is exactly the kind of thing it was designed for. To let the players tell their own story. It does not belong out in the shared world.

That's my opinion and it's not going to change. How the development team finally handles it is entirely up to them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B000APIPZC?ref_=pe_584750_33951330

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Scott Jackson wrote:
Scott Jackson wrote:

I think CoH got that soloable/team content balance almost right

Agreed--and I was mainly, probably 75%, a solo player with relatively few alts, and most of my team play was duoing or trioing with family.

I don't remember "teamers" complaining much about running out of team content either. So CoH had to have gotten something right.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Just don't make the mistake of making all the team content, also solo content, unless the players put some work into their characters builds and even then, some team content should just be out of reach.

Is it the type of enemy/enemies that Superman would need the JL's help for, shouldn't be soloable by a player :p

It has already been explicitly stated (elsewhere, previously) that ALL content for City of Titans is being written for the Team experience as the baseline expectation, making the game as "group friendly" as City of Heroes was as a goal, with the understanding that Solo content is merely a Team-1 edge case, rather than being an "exception" to the rule. If content is not intended to be soloable then that will be advertised in advance, so if you try to solo it and fail, you only have yourself to blame since you were Warned In Advance™ that the solo option was less likely to be successful. Think Task Force and Strike Force, where it's WISE to get Friends to act as a group to take on the content ... but without a Minimum Team Size that forces you to fill out the roster if you don't have "enough" people to even start the content.

My understanding (and assumption) is that it's easier to scale DOWN content than it is to scale UP content, such that the Solo vs Group presumption is an asymmetrical one as far as baselines go. If you start with an assumption of (up to) Team-8 potential, and write everything accordingly, it's a lot easier to accommodate the Team-1 "exception" (even if it will happen an awful lot!) ... rather than the reverse ... of assuming everything is Team-1 solo and then having to kludge on how everything will work in Team-2 up to Team-8 situations as the "exception" to expectations.


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What do people want out of a

What do people want out of a Mission Architect system?
What capabilities do you want it to provide?
What experiences are you hoping to craft?

blacke4dawn
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Scott Jackson wrote:
I think CoH got that soloable/team content balance almost right
Agreed--and I was mainly, probably 75%, a solo player with relatively few alts, and most of my team play was duoing or trioing with family.
I don't remember "teamers" complaining much about running out of team content either. So CoH had to have gotten something right.

I think the main reason for that was due to the content scaling to group size plus the possibility to adjust difficulty.

It's been said that soloing was just being in a team consisting of one person. And I think that is the best way to go, keeping the content that is strictly solo or team to a minimum and make the rest adapt to group size.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

Going a bit off topic, but what about an optional SG base room/setting where offline PC/alts can be displayed? Only folks in the base would be affected, which addresses those concerns. I would advise deactivating the feature during any base raid equivalent of course.

There was a thread where someone proposed mannequins for bases and personal housing...

That said, I'm on board with having a small population of offline PCs populating the scenery, so long as a few conditions are met:

  • Opt-in only.
  • The locations where the PC may appear must be opted in. Keep my teetotaler out of the bar, and my hero out of the Rose Lounge.
  • Anything the PC does (emotes) or says is also opt-in and player-set.
  • Some defaults or suggestions might be provided, but nothing locked in.
  • Time of day settings.
  • Player-set caps on frequency and duration of appearances.

Probably some more conditions, but those are a minimum. Anything resembling the game taking your character over (e.g. putting them in a mission as the end boss) is verboten. If you really want other players to give your guy the beat down, write your own mission (via something like Architect) for that. Speaking of which, if the above were implemented, then you should be able to "volunteer" your mission's NPCs to appear in the wild as above. Same restrictions.

Anyway, once a player sets that up, the game would randomly choose offline PCs as needed. They'd need to keep overall frequency down so it doesn't look like the whole city is loaded with nothing but capes. And they'd need to change things up routinely; nobody sitting on a barstool for six days straight. (Also don't want this to be abused as a "is this player online" test, which could encourage harassment.)

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

What do people want out of a Mission Architect system?

To tell a story my way.

Planet10 wrote:

What capabilities do you want it to provide?

Basically the same options as with a dev created mission: optionable/triggerable events, moderately customizable creatures, etc. I was actually fairly content with the options that MA provided. I wasn't a power-user by any means, but I was able to successfully tell the vast majority of the story I wanted to with the tools I had available to me.

Planet10 wrote:

What experiences are you hoping to craft?

The kind that can't be abused, such as with MA in CoH/V. As it was a virtual experience in CoH/V, I would have been fine with them turning off the XP for it. That may sound harsh, and it probably is to some degree, but it certainly would have helped to curtail at least part of the problem. Do I think they should do the same in CoT? Of course not. That is because they have the opportunity to learn from past mistakes and implement a better system.

Greyhawk
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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

What do people want out of a Mission Architect system?
What capabilities do you want it to provide?
What experiences are you hoping to craft?

Very important questions. Perhaps you should start a new thread?

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Brand X
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I want a mission architect

I want a mission architect system that can tell a good/okay story from a crap dumb story.

I want a mission architect system that doesn't get turned into a power levelers dream.

I want it to be used only to craft good stories that don't get bogged down with sour players who down vote it because they hate the player who made it or that it's not a power level mission.

Planet10
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Made a Mission Architect

Made a Mission Architect thread >> here

Scott Jackson
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Allow the creation of

[Edit - reposted this in the new thread with more details]

Allow the creation of missions and mission arcs, plus puzzle/stealth challenges, and combat challenges.

Decent search capabilities, a 5-star rating system, and a loss of privileges (to create or to rate) for those who repeatedly abuse either function.

Offer a path to get content added to the official game if rated highly, and reward content creators who contribute to the game in this way.

Motivation to play:
Primary - Experience new stories and challenges.
Secondary - "Ticket" rewards that can be traded in (as in CoH's AE) for specific crafting resources, temp powers, pets, and similar items. These items can be sold in the auction house to obtain a "gold" reward instead; players can use tickets to help keep all crafting resources in stock (a self-balancing economic system), and it acts as a gold sink if there are fees to trade.
Low or zero powerleveling motivation - significantly reduced or no xp, unless bulletproofed against what we've seen before.
Zero inflation - no gold. *see secondary motivation

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I enjoyed the Incarnate

I enjoyed the Incarnate system in CoH, especially when I *finally* got my one AoE heal! If City of Tabbies has a similar system (somewhere down-the-line), I hope that the drop rate is considerably more balanced and that we can trade X number of Incarnate O's to get the Y one we need.

In CoH, I played AK long after she had passed Level 50.

With 6 character slots, I expect to have:

1. Amerikatt's Sidekick;
2. Amerikatt-Prime;
3. Amerikatt-Purple;
4. Amerikatt-Pink;
5. Captain Amerikatt;
6. Wonder-Kitten.

Yup! 2 mains and 4 TBA!

Just a cat from another star!