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Lethal and Non Lethal Check boxes

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LaughingAlex
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Lethal and Non Lethal Check boxes

I just thought of an idea for a morality kind of check, but more an option of making a character actually kill his/her enemies is often not in games like this. I remember deus ex and deus ex human revolution in that, both games for the most part, you could choose between lethal and non lethal on the fly. Since this game though wouldn't have differing weapons in that way, I was thinking of an option that, by default, would default to non-lethal takedowns with powers. But if changed, enemies would remain down if you took them down. There would be dynamics to this.

Non lethal incapacitating is moral; you get good points for not killing people in a quest. The general population thats good aligned will respect you more. I remember an interview you guys wanted to achieve this go figure. Non lethal could also be a policy used if your fighting a group that's actually on your side for story purposes(your doing a good thing but unfortunately other good guys happen to be unknowingly preventing you from doing what you really need to do to save the world).

Non lethal incapacitating results in less negative consequences during missions; this can include like the deus ex games, less noise, but could also means future missions and whatnot enemies won't take you quite as seriously. Avoiding more agro would be easier.

Good aligned contacts will like you for showing restraint and actually give you missions.

On the other hand....

Defeating enemies non-lethally means they may get back up and attack later if there is anyone in the area to get them back up.

Lethally taking enemies down keeps them down, but you are in fact, killing people. Good aligned people may not like your doing that and may consider you a vigilante or a villain. Especially if your going up against the good guys(afterall, even a good end doens't always justify the means)!

Lethally taking enemies down will cause some tougher replacements to come up sooner, rather than later. People who are being killed will scream more.

Of course, evil aligned individuals will like you more for having...flexible morals...*grins and then gives a generic muhahaha laugh* and contact you for more mayhem and carnage.

What does everyone else think?

Edit: A note it's been a while since I was here so I am not sure if this was already suggested yet. I know the dev team wanted to touch on morality, as CoX did.

I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.

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I think it would be

I think it would be especially useful if we got to see finisher animations that coincide with one's decision. For instance, when the lethal box is ticked...

1. The final blow for melee attacks will be brutal, aggressive, or focused on the head and torso. For instance, a standard punch will be a knockout blow to the throat, and hitting someone with a sword will result in you instead whirling it over your head in an attempt to cleave the opponent in two.
2. Ranged attacks will finish off enemies by aiming for the head or torso, and may release a much stronger blast or fire off a volley of blasts to keep them down. For instance, throwing ice shards will instead release giant icy spears at your opponent, and a simple burst from an assault rifle will turn into a nice spray to the face.
3. Tanker auras will visually consume enemies on death. For instance, fire auras will burn bodies for awhile and dark auras will desiccate them.
4. Area-of-effect attacks will also visually consume enemies on death, often blowing minions apart. (maybe not in a gory fashion, if we plan on keeping this game PG-13)

When the non-lethal box is checked...

1. The final blow for melee attacks will be more subtle, and focus on the limbs or other non-vital parts of an enemy's body. For instance, a standard punch would be a powerful shot to the groin, and hitting someone with a sword will result in you instead piercing their ankle and severing their Achilles tendon.
2. Ranged attacks will put down enemies by aiming for the limbs or other non-vital organs, and may release a less lethal blast or fire off less rounds than normal to keep their victims alive. For instance, throwing ice shards will instead release balls of hard-packed snow to KO enemies, and a simple burst from an assault rifle will instead be a single shot to the leg.
3. Tanker auras will not consume enemies, and show them recovering from the aura. For instance, fire auras will leave enemies smoldering and dark auras will show them curled up in a fetal position.
4. Area-of-effect attacks do about the same thing as tanker auras, but the more explosive variety will knock them the fuck out and send them ragdolling a good distance.

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I suspect the Teen rating

I suspect the Teen rating would have some impact on this.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Say it with me... "Heller".

Say it with me... "Heller".

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TTheDDoctor
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I suspect the Teen rating would have some impact on this.

Yeeaaah, that's kind of a go-figure, now that I think about it...

Rigel wrote:

Say it with me... "Heller".

I don't get it.

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

Rigel wrote:
Say it with me... "Heller".

I don't get it.

It's a reference to the Mystery Men movie. There was sort of a running joke about how the "heroes" in that movie had to strictly adhere to the ideal of doing everything in a totally non-lethal way which set them apart from the "villains" who were big on using actual guns/weapons. Even the main characters' group vehicle (redesigned by Dr. Heller) was specifically praised as the "finest non-lethal battlewagon ever made". I assume that's why Rigel mentioned it in this thread about superhero lethality.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
Rigel wrote:
Say it with me... "Heller".

I don't get it.

It's a reference to the Mystery Men movie. There was sort of a running joke about how the "heroes" in that movie had to strictly adhere to the ideal of doing everything in a totally non-lethal way which set them apart from the "villains" who were big on using actual guns/weapons. Even the main characters' group vehicle (redesigned by Dr. Heller) was specifically praised as the "finest non-lethal battlewagon ever made". I assume that's why Rigel mentioned it in this thread about superhero lethality.

You assume correctly :)

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cybermitheral
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Problem with the non-lethal

Problem with the non-lethal approach is on a large map I have 'knocked out' all the groups except the last with the boss. This has taken time and now that I am fighting the final boss/group the other bad guys have woken up and swarmed me. No thanks

If enemies that are knocked out cant wake up while Im on the mission then there is no difference from me using lethal vs non-lethal.

Like in CoH let me Role Play the fact that my Hero is knocking bad guys out with my Fire attacks or machine gun or Sonic blasts.

I understand your idea of linking this to some Morality system but if, as ou suggested, the default was non-Lethal (hero) and Lethal (Villain) then there is no reason to chose otherwise unless I want to be a Hero that kills but that's more of a Vigilante.
If I want to be such and the act of being a Vig Is based on whether I do Lethal attacks as a Hero then I have to somehow flag that character to do Lethal damage. If I then do too much and start slipping into the Villain side then I need to change it to non-Lethal and 'see-saw' between lethal and Non-lethal. Too much hassle.

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Problem with the non-lethal

Double post :(

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Problem with the non-lethal approach is on a large map I have 'knocked out' all the groups except the last with the boss. This has taken time and now that I am fighting the final boss/group the other bad guys have woken up and swarmed me. No thanks
If enemies that are knocked out cant wake up while Im on the mission then there is no difference from me using lethal vs non-lethal.
Like in CoH let me Role Play the fact that my Hero is knocking bad guys out with my Fire attacks or machine gun or Sonic blasts.
I understand your idea of linking this to some Morality system but if, as ou suggested, the default was non-Lethal (hero) and Lethal (Villain) then there is no reason to chose otherwise unless I want to be a Hero that kills but that's more of a Vigilante.
If I want to be such and the act of being a Vig Is based on whether I do Lethal attacks as a Hero then I have to somehow flag that character to do Lethal damage. If I then do too much and start slipping into the Villain side then I need to change it to non-Lethal and 'see-saw' between lethal and Non-lethal. Too much hassle.

1. It really doesn't affect gameplay TOO much. Either you kill them and everyone still alive swarms you, or you KO them and they slowly trickle towards you. I'd reckon after the second time KO'ing them we could make them stay down, make them weakened from the previous beating, or otherwise have only a handful of the horde you just put down come back for you. It's entirely fixable.

2. It's too much of a hassle to... click a toggle box? What.

3. Stop double-posting, for goodness sake.

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cybermitheral
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1. That's not what I said.

1. That's not what I said.
If I 'kill' the enemies in Group 1 I don't get swarmed by Group 2 as I haven't encountered them yet. Same for the rest of the groups unless I agro 2 groups at once.
Also 'Kill All' missions now become knock out all missions? If I take to long, need to go bio for a few mins or take the dog out to do its business, then they will wake up.

2. You are assuming a Toggle icon of some kind. Even if this is what is used, and based on the KB vs KD thread toggle use should never be assumed, then I have to waste screen real estate on a toggle Ill almost never change until my Good/Bad meter gets too close to a certain side. Then I have to toggle, kill 5-10 enemies, toggle, KO 5-10, toggle, Kill 5-10, etc (and yes the 5-10 is a pull out of nowhere number).

3. As this was my first ever double post on these forums I can see why you got upset.
My sincere apologies I know how much a double post can be so offensive and upsetting to you.

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I prefer the way that the

I prefer the way that the Praetorian Content handled this in City of Heroes:

Accompany Washington to Cleopatra's office

  • Save Cleopatra
    Kill Washington to save Cleopatra. Aid the Resistance. Interrogator Washington won't stop until Cleopatra is dead. But is Cleopatra truly in the wrong? She is part of the Wardens, the group who is trying to remove Cole from power without harming any innocents. Helping Cleopatra will help show the Resistance that not all Loyalists are evil. But saving her life means Washington cannot be left alive! (As the story of Praetoria unfolds your character will have opportunities to change their mind and switch sides.)
  • Kill Cleopatra
    Help Washington carry out his sentence. Aid the Loyalists. Cleopatra has infiltrated the heart of the Loyalists and tried to kill you for having the key to her secret. She knows too much about the inner workings of Praetoria to be left alive. She may be trying to help the city, but she backstabbed you and sent you to your death. Cleopatra just goes to show that you can't trust any members of the Resistance - Warden or Crusader! (As the story of Praetoria unfolds your character will have opportunities to change their mind and switch sides.)

Do this sort of thing as a Moral Choice, flag it well in advance that the choice is coming (ie. Solo only mission), and let the Player take as much time as they need to decide what they're going to do.

Incidentally, The Elder Scrolls Online uses much the same system (including phasing and everything) to handle the Moral Choice questions of Life Or Death for dealing with NPCs as the culmination of bits of story arcs as well.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I prefer the way that the Praetorian Content handled this in City of Heroes:
Accompany Washington to Cleopatra's office
Save Cleopatra
Kill Washington to save Cleopatra. Aid the Resistance. Interrogator Washington won't stop until Cleopatra is dead. But is Cleopatra truly in the wrong? She is part of the Wardens, the group who is trying to remove Cole from power without harming any innocents. Helping Cleopatra will help show the Resistance that not all Loyalists are evil. But saving her life means Washington cannot be left alive! (As the story of Praetoria unfolds your character will have opportunities to change their mind and switch sides.)
Kill Cleopatra
Help Washington carry out his sentence. Aid the Loyalists. Cleopatra has infiltrated the heart of the Loyalists and tried to kill you for having the key to her secret. She knows too much about the inner workings of Praetoria to be left alive. She may be trying to help the city, but she backstabbed you and sent you to your death. Cleopatra just goes to show that you can't trust any members of the Resistance - Warden or Crusader! (As the story of Praetoria unfolds your character will have opportunities to change their mind and switch sides.)
Do this sort of thing as a Moral Choice, flag it well in advance that the choice is coming (ie. Solo only mission), and let the Player take as much time as they need to decide what they're going to do.
Incidentally, The Elder Scrolls Online uses much the same system (including phasing and everything) to handle the Moral Choice questions of Life Or Death for dealing with NPCs as the culmination of bits of story arcs as well.

I like to call this one the Bioware Approach. It's done in many games, both those that qualify as RPGs and those that do not (Bioshock makes extensive use of this, for example). Your choices and their consequences are clearly outlined to the player, often complete with an easy way to know which choices are good and bad when choosing (Blue/Up versus Red/Down, for example).

It's not the perfect system; players often highlight places where it feels shallow or incomplete ("why should I either let this guy go or punt him off a cliff? Can't I just jail him?"), but often it's the most feasible thing to do as far as game design is concerned. The real goal would be to find a balance between Available Choices, and What the Players are Willing to Pick / What the Developers are Willing to Make.

(Please note that I'm writing as Myself here, and not as a Comp. Member.)

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^ kinda like the revamped

^ kinda like the revamped Rogue Islands quests.

Save the guy trapped in the debris after YOU Bombed the lab, or let him die, OR kill him yourself. Only one that I vividly remember.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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There's another thing to

There's another thing to consider. This is an MMO, usually when an enemy's HP drops to 0 it means they're out of the game, and more importantly, they no long need to be kept track of by the server. They can be despawned, removed to free up resources for enemies that actually matter.

If you make a system that requires enemies who drop to 0 HP to still be tracked for every character who sets it to be non-lethat, you vastly increase the server load for NPC tracking. And NPC tracking is a whopper.

Now, I get some NPCs might be flagged like this for story reasons, like you see some hero get defeated, but the devs need you to talk to him anyway, or something. But as a general rule, an NPC that has served its purpose, in this case as a combat encounter, should be disposed of ASAP. For named characters, you can always spawn another if you need it.

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If this Good/Bad decision was

If this Good/Bad decision was to be used I'd also like to see a "Neutral" option such as D-Pad suggested (Jail [Neutral] versus Kill [Bad] or Let Go [Good]).
If the player wants a neutral character without having to balance their Hero/Villain meter this will allow it. Also there will be some missions where the Good is just too 'Goodie-two-shoes' to swallow and the Bad is too much from my perspective so give me a middle ground.

This may leed to some players always choosing the middle option but that is my choice if I want to do that.

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They should have a story Arc

They should have a story Arc where the a villain Group gets their hands on the defeated Transporter/Teleporter and you are tasked with retrieving it. But during those 5 missions, the Defeated minions keep Transport Reviving to certain locations on the map (less XP for each time you defeat the same minion, have to keep track of each). Your team will have to decide how and which foes to fight to destroy the tech that powers each of the Defeat Transporters in the missions.

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I have no problems with a

I have no problems with a Triple Choice decision being made the norm for Alignment Axis Movements. Essentially a +1 or 0 or -1 option on that particular axis. That way, movement (in either direction) is not "forced" upon the Player, necessarily.


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McNum wrote:
McNum wrote:

There's another thing to consider. This is an MMO, usually when an enemy's HP drops to 0 it means they're out of the game, and more importantly, they no long need to be kept track of by the server. They can be despawned, removed to free up resources for enemies that actually matter.
If you make a system that requires enemies who drop to 0 HP to still be tracked for every character who sets it to be non-lethat, you vastly increase the server load for NPC tracking. And NPC tracking is a whopper.
Now, I get some NPCs might be flagged like this for story reasons, like you see some hero get defeated, but the devs need you to talk to him anyway, or something. But as a general rule, an NPC that has served its purpose, in this case as a combat encounter, should be disposed of ASAP. For named characters, you can always spawn another if you need it.

A fine point, now that you mention it. Besides, KO'd opponents should really be so incapacitated that they can only recover long after the heroes/villains have cleared out. Anyone who played a Goody-Two-Shoes character would essentially be doing the same thing, only now their option counts towards their Goody-Two-Shoes meter.

It's settled, then- the enemies will be de-spawned, be it after being killed or KO'd.

cybermitheral wrote:

If this Good/Bad decision was to be used I'd also like to see a "Neutral" option such as D-Pad suggested (Jail [Neutral] versus Kill [Bad] or Let Go [Good]).
If the player wants a neutral character without having to balance their Hero/Villain meter this will allow it. Also there will be some missions where the Good is just too 'Goodie-two-shoes' to swallow and the Bad is too much from my perspective so give me a middle ground.
This may leed to some players always choosing the middle option but that is my choice if I want to do that.

This is beyond essential, especially after seeing how the triple-axis alignment system that CoT plans on using has a middle ground for every category. I approve.

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