Knockback and Knockups

77 posts / 0 new
Last post
Ellysyn
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 1 week ago
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 15:45
Knockback and Knockups

Are these going to be around in the game? I know it makes sense for various powers to have these abilities but is there a way for players to be able to manually turn that function off at least. I'm not saying taking them out. If ya throw a grenade into an area obviously ya want the enemies to get knock back or if you are getting ganked you want to be able to push them away. But it has always been aggravating to have someone just knock the enemy around the room and me trying to catch up to the enemy to hit him. Or the enemy getting knocked high up into the air and me just standing there waiting for him to fall back so I can hit him or having to jump up and try to hit him. Most the time I end up playing range just so that I can not have to deal much with that problem. Seemed powers with that feature don't always have to be charged up to activate it. Then can just tap the power and it sends enemies flying.

----------------------------------------
Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble

Zombie Man
Zombie Man's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 07/26/2013 - 19:23
It's too early in the

It's too early in the development cycle to be able to say what we're doing with KB and KU. Sorry. :(

Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator

snate56
snate56's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 11 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/09/2013 - 04:02
Knockback was probably my

Knockback was probably my favorite effect. ;)

Steve

___

"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are live!"
Warcabbit

Justjackwilliams
Justjackwilliams's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 1 day ago
Joined: 09/09/2013 - 05:01
Yeah, I love knock backs..

Yeah, I love knock backs.. Makes you feel powerful when you can actually blast someone across the room instead of just knocking them down. One of my favorite parts of the game.

_______________________________________
Face the fury of the storm! ~<3

snate56
snate56's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 11 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/09/2013 - 04:02
I would, however, reserve a

I would, however, reserve a couple of attacks with no knockback, just so I could be useful on a team.

Steve

___

"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are live!"
Warcabbit

Hube2
Hube2's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 15:12
The enhancement set

The enhancement set introduced near the end that converted knockback to knockdown was one of my favorites. I know there are people that really enjoyed the knockback effect but I just found it annoying. I played a lot of melee characters and chasing things around was just a pain in the butt for me.

Justjackwilliams
Justjackwilliams's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 1 day ago
Joined: 09/09/2013 - 05:01
I think the important thing

I think the important thing is to have knock backs in the game, but to let the people in your party know that you find it hard to work as melee when they keep blasting people around.

As a Storm Summoner I used to love blasting multiple enemies back with gale while soloing however I always made sure to limit knock backs in a team environment so I would anger the tank! :D

_______________________________________
Face the fury of the storm! ~<3

Lord Nightmare
Lord Nightmare's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 9 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 15:44
one of my favorite things as

one of my favorite things as an Energy/Dark Corruptor was using Energy Torrent and Power Burst to watch the semi-ragdoll enemies go flying, if only a few feet in the air.
Especially when it was Longbow or PCPD ;)

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain

Hube2
Hube2's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 15:12
Knockback was also somewhat

Knockback was also somewhat controllable. With some powers if you positioned yourself right and targeted the right place or enemy you could control the direction that everything flew. It isn't really knockback that bothered me but the application.

Doc_Nova
Doc_Nova's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 1 month ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 16:35
Hube2 wrote:
Hube2 wrote:

Knockback was also somewhat controllable. With some powers if you positioned yourself right and targeted the right place or enemy you could control the direction that everything flew. It isn't really knockback that bothered me but the application.

This!

Orientation made all the difference between knockback being obnoxious or being a soft control. Knocked back (and therefore, knocked down) enemies couldn't necessarily act, so it was a very fast, easily spammed (in some cases, too easy...tornado, I am looking at you) control-ish effect. It was also a great interrupt, if you knew when, and against whom, to target it.

Inspectre
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 08:35
Justjackwilliams wrote:
Justjackwilliams wrote:

I think the important thing is to have knock backs in the game, but to let the people in your party know that you find it hard to work as melee when they keep blasting people around.
As a Storm Summoner I used to love blasting multiple enemies back with gale while soloing however I always made sure to limit knock backs in a team environment so I would anger the tank! :D

I loved Gale. One of my favorites. Also Power Push. And I took the Nemesis staff on almost every character I played. So much fun!

graff
graff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 08/29/2013 - 12:31
I am hoping that knockback

I am hoping that knockback and knockdown is actually part of the foli choice so its a choice of either or both depending on the power

rogueseraphim
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 5 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/06/2013 - 10:15
It would be nice if it

It would be nice if it started as knockdown/up then people could enhance the effect to create knock back if desired

Rick Tacular
Rick Tacular's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/06/2013 - 20:12
Ugh, I hated KB. I just

Ugh, I hated KB. I just abhorred having to make my team run after a Bad Guy. Now, Knockdown and Knock-up, hells yeah. My absolute favorite power of all times was Foot-Stomp. I'd target the closest guy in the mob, lock-on, run past them all to the rear of them (getting their attention), Taunt (and *really* get their attention), then after they gathered all around me in a 360 arc, put me foot right down on them. That was the signal for the rest of my team to jump in and slaughter them all. *sigh* Good times. :-)

snate56
snate56's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 11 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/09/2013 - 04:02
Well, hopefully, you'll be

Well, hopefully, you'll be able to choose Knock-back, Knock-up, or Knockdown as your effect.

___

"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are live!"
Warcabbit

Zombie Man
Zombie Man's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 07/26/2013 - 19:23
I choose Knock-through! ;>

I choose Knock-through!

;>

Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator

Mendicant
Mendicant's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 1 month ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/26/2013 - 11:27
Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

I choose Knock-through!
;>

*thumps up*

It might not be achievable, but wouldn't it be cool to be able to throw a villain (or hero, for the villainous types) through a wall?

Thunder-Puncher
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 5 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 18:36
snate56 wrote:
snate56 wrote:

Well, hopefully, you'll be able to choose Knock-back, Knock-up, or Knockdown as your effect.

I don't know about it being 'selective'...,

- I mean, if you have an attack that clearly shows an upward swinging motion (...like Heavy Stone Mallet or KO Blow...), it would be kind of absurd to see it just do Knockdown.,,Knockup? Most certainly. Knockback? Perhaps with additional slotting...but not Knockdown, that's silly. Attacks that cause opponents to loose their footing like Martial Arts Legsweep, most Ice Powers and overhead weapon swing types I can see defintely doing Knockdown, but wide arc sweeping attacks or explosions shouldn't really do Knockdown. I mean, come on...how are you going to make something like M30 Grenade do Knockdown? If a player has issues with Knockback, then they probably shouldn't be playing a character that has powers that do Knockback...if you like the boom, then you should learn to deal with the aftershocks. You don't play an Ice-based character and complain about the slowing effect...right?

Kaxiya
Kaxiya's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Developerkickstarter
Joined: 08/24/2013 - 21:44
All this talk about Knock

All this talk about Knock-back, Knock-up and Knockdown has got me wondering. Will it be possible to resist or eliminate these attacks? Something along the lines of a "Density" control type of power....make myself very dense and thus cutdown or eliminate some or all of the above attack types. The other side of it could be used to decrease your density and allow you to float/levitate/fly etc with perhaps an increase in the Knock back/up/down type attacks.

Perhaps such a power could even cut back on some types of damage....just a thought

A new beginning, forged from hope never ending!!

Beacon of Blazing Faith--The Titan Legacy

Krnl_Mandrake
Krnl_Mandrake's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 11 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/02/2013 - 22:06
Kaxiya wrote:
Kaxiya wrote:

All this talk about Knock-back, Knock-up and Knockdown has got me wondering. Will it be possible to resist or eliminate these attacks? Something along the lines of a "Density" control type of power....make myself very dense and thus cutdown or eliminate some or all of the above attack types. The other side of it could be used to decrease your density and allow you to float/levitate/fly etc with perhaps an increase in the Knock back/up/down type attacks.
Perhaps such a power could even cut back on some types of damage....just a thought

I would think this would be inherent with some of the power themes they already have worked up so far...

For instance, in CoH if you were a tank, or you chose say Athletics... then you were resistant, if not immune to knockback. So I would imagine there will be some sort of mechanic built into the current system to do something similar. I dunno of course... but it would make sense...

snate56
snate56's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 11 months ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/09/2013 - 04:02
Other way around. If you

Other way around. If you choose, say, an uppercut, the effect would be knock-up; a hay-maker would give you knockback, etc.

___

"Listen, and understand. City of Titans is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are live!"
Warcabbit

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Here's a thought which I

Here's a thought which I haven't seen broached anywhere yet (and I'm still looking around the forums to catch up at this point).

In WoW, there's a keyboard command (bound to key of your choice) which when you press that key, powers that normally affect others can affect self. So if you've got it set as the Alt key (for example), when you Alt Heal you heal yourself instead of your target. Very handy for being able to make powers and effects do "double duty" without needing to have two powers cluttering up your trays (one for you, one for everyone else). So in a CoH context, Empathy's power of Heal Other would become simply "Heal" and you could use it on either your selected target or yourself, depending on whether the "target self" toggle key was depressed.

Now, what makes that notion "interesting" in the context of Knockback, Knockdown, Knockup is the thought that NONE of those effects are ones that you're going to want to have affecting Self because they're all tied to Damage powers (with only a FEW exceptions to the rule). My point here is that the "target self" bind key could in effect do "double duty" in terms of enabling/disabling KB/KD/KU on demand for attacks that have these kinds of effects. All you'd need to do is have a Game Settings UI Element that allows you as a player to decide if KB/KD/KU is "on" or "off" by default for that character, and then use the "target self" toggle key to "switch" that setting temporarily while the key is held down when making attacks that do KB/KD/KU. Taking that just a little bit further, you could even have three of these settings ... one for Knockback, one for Knockdown, one for Knockup ... each of which has 4 options to it ... Always on, Optionally On, Optionally Off, Always Off ... with the middle two being the ones where the "target self" keybind is allowed to temporarily invert the defaulted setting on demand. That way you could have your Knockback set to Optionally Off, meaning you need to press the "target self" keybind in order to enable Knockback to occur ... you could have Knockdown set to Always On, so the "target self" key state is always ignored and Knockdown always happens ... and have Knockup set to Optionally On, so that it happens by default unless the "target self" key is engaged. An even further level of customization could be incurred by having a checkbox for converting ALL Knock Effects into being Knockdown Only if desired.

Do all of THAT and you'll essentially take "unwanted" Knockback out of the game as an "uncontrolled" feature of powersets that players have to fight against, rather than with, to achieve their objectives.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Ellysyn
Offline
Last seen: 9 months 1 week ago
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 15:45
o.o that's actually pretty

o.o that's actually pretty clever i thinks. I vote for that. That sounds cool.

----------------------------------------
Owner and Big Sister of the Justice Girls -Champions Online-City of Titans-
Forum Breaker
Leader of the Ellysyn Dark Ensemble

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
We make every pretense of

We make every pretense of competency around here. *^_^*


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
DeepThought
DeepThought's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
Joined: 10/30/2013 - 05:20
Justjackwilliams wrote:
Justjackwilliams wrote:

I think the important thing is to have knock backs in the game, but to let the people in your party know that you find it hard to work as melee when they keep blasting people around.
As a Storm Summoner I used to love blasting multiple enemies back with gale while soloing however I always made sure to limit knock backs in a team environment so I would anger the tank! :D

actually most of the ranged people who are trying to use AoE's (in an AoE-focused game) hated the people using knockback on a team too... and the people trying to use aoe heals while melee guys are chasing mobs thrown all over... yeah, pretty much everyone on the team got annoyed by knockbacks if they were not used *sparingly* and with *great* care. It was NOT just the tank.

That said, certain types of knockback could be used in a team, in certain types of environments. For example, for a group of mobs in the corner of an interior hallway, you can spam Gale and really make things easy. Or if you wanted to use lightning storm, you would hover up fairly high above the mobs so that the lightning strikes would knock enemies down instead of away. And if you were really really good, you could even use KB to shove enemies back into the aoe patch... but generally speaking, on a team, you only used KB where/when you could essentially eliminate the effect of moving the target's location. IE: you could only use KB on a team when it wasn't, in fact, knocking things back very far.

knock-ups on the other hand, were always welcome.

(edit: the only thing worse than built-in knockback on a power, is built-in *chance* for knockback, ensuring that no matter how carefully you try to manage it, it's just going to make a complete mess out of your target grouping.)

captkurt
Offline
Last seen: 4 months 1 week ago
kickstarter
Joined: 10/20/2013 - 22:42
With regards to all effects..

With regards to all effects...the PITA ones are generally considered as Knockup and Knockback...but the stunned and fear conditions could be problematic as well.

What I'd love to see, with the enhancements (what ever mechanism they are), is the ability to not only enhance these kinds of aspects, but also to minimize them. For example maybe your standard uppercut punch power does a knockup...you could enhance the knockup into knockback, or make it more reliably knockup (increase the magnitude), or you could add the enhancements as negative, which would reduce the distance...or drop knockback to knockup or something to that effect.

Basically let the player adjust the power of the various status effects in both positive and negative ways.

cybermitheral
cybermitheral's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 15 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/21/2013 - 20:54
I truely loved my Nrg/Ng

I truely loved my Nrg/Ng Blaster but as a Main Tank person I hated when people didnt use KB thoughtfully.
On my Blaster I would use most of my High KB powers to herd bad guys towards the team.
KD powers got used willy nilly as KD doesnt negatively most people.
AoE KB powers were used to help a teammate from being overwhelmed or as soon as an Immob/Hold was applied :)
"You hold them and Ill Blast them" :)

The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer

Insatiable
Insatiable's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 days 13 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/25/2013 - 10:32
Justjackwilliams wrote:
Justjackwilliams wrote:

Yeah, I love knock backs.. Makes you feel powerful when you can actually blast someone across the room instead of just knocking them down. One of my favorite parts of the game.

This!

Players want to feel super, and visual effects (some control, I get it) make that happen. Sending targets flying, bursting things into flames or reducing them to ash, smashing something into the floor making them struggle to free themselves, lifting them into the air, etc. Effects that make player a super hero just... super. Even just seeing that your target is 'affected' by your powers versus a player swinging a sword at a target that just stands there doing the same thing over and over...

"it's a long road to wisdom, but it's a short one to being ignored." The Lumineers

Col. Kernel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 10/11/2013 - 14:08
Hube2 wrote:
Hube2 wrote:

Knockback was also somewhat controllable. With some powers if you positioned yourself right and targeted the right place or enemy you could control the direction that everything flew. It isn't really knockback that bothered me but the application.

It wasn't "somewhat" controllable. It was controllable, period.

If the tank herds to a wall you just KB stuff into the wall. If there were debuff patches (Freezing Rain, etc) you watch the edges for mobs about to leave the patch and send them back to the center of it.

KB is beautiful stuff if you watch what you're doing with it.

The only exceptions to this were the radial KB powers, and I avoided using those unless it was time to pull out all the stops.

GH
GH's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 7 months ago
Joined: 10/13/2013 - 08:49
Tank: I'm going to go.. wtf..

Tank: I'm going to go.. wtf.. who put down these vines?
Plantman : Me. It's what I do.
Tank : Well you're stopping ME from doing what I do.
Phasewoman : I've phased the bunch ahead so we can just skip them
Tank : WTF.. I was going to HERD THEM
Stalker : Guys, I've gone on ahead and clicked the glowie so the mission is over in 5 seconds.
Nrg/Nrg Blaster : Lol, first mission it hasn't been my fault
Tank... /kicks the blaster.. "nobody likes a smartass"

Back to retirement.

If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev

Comicsluvr
Comicsluvr's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 2 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/07/2013 - 03:39
You know, it's interesting. I

You know, it's interesting. I see MILES of posts concerning KB and ill-use of it. You remember that guy who always dropped his big AoE Immob RIGHT before the mob came into the kill-zone? You remember...THAT guy who never seemed to get his timing right on the simplest plan ever?

Funny I don't hear anyone screaming 'Nerf AoE Immobs!' at all...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

Pengy
Pengy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 10 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/09/2013 - 10:40
Nah, nerf the tankers who say

Nah, nerf the tankers who say "I'm pulling to this corner!" then, when they see the stack of Trip Mines at the corner, backpedal and pull to an open area just out of range of the corner.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

You know, it's interesting. I see MILES of posts concerning KB and ill-use of it. You remember that guy who always dropped his big AoE Immob RIGHT before the mob came into the kill-zone? You remember...THAT guy who never seemed to get his timing right on the simplest plan ever?
Funny I don't hear anyone screaming 'Nerf AoE Immobs!' at all...

Oh the number of times I over aggroed due to my Firecages deciding to spread in the wrong direction are inumerable.

This is one of the few times where I wish that the groups in CoX were a bit more spread out to prevent it...

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 1 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

You know, it's interesting. I see MILES of posts concerning KB and ill-use of it. You remember that guy who always dropped his big AoE Immob RIGHT before the mob came into the kill-zone? You remember...THAT guy who never seemed to get his timing right on the simplest plan ever?
Funny I don't hear anyone screaming 'Nerf AoE Immobs!' at all...

I remember lots of Ice Controllers who would AOE Immob the enemy on their Ice Patch, and the Ice Immobilze power had -KB.

And everytime I suggested not using the powers together they all pretty much said "But it's my damage power" :o

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
I had the same thing happen

I had the same thing happen plenty often when I was playing my Ice/Ice Tanker, Shirayukihime, while duoing with Lin's alt, a Plant/TA Controller, Ibarahime. As an Ice/Ice Tanker, the whole point and purpose of my build was to act as Aggro Magnet Flypaper, drawing everything in close for maximum Energy Absorption to maximize my Defense and minimize my incoming Damage ... and almost every time my Real Life friend driving the Plant Controller would throw out the Immobilize before the herd had clustered up on me. In Lin Chiao Feng's defense, the reason for this bit of "bad timing" in the use of Roots to Immobilize was simply due to the fact that throwing it out early was just the place that Power had in the standard attack chain rotation ... so it went against the grain to "mix things up" to make life easier for me, as the Tanker inhaling all the aggro, so as to make my life easier in order to accelerate our damage throughput efficiency. Because when the Foe NPCs were even lightly scattered around and held Immobilized, the efficiency and effectiveness of my Chilling Embrace and Icicles (both PBAoE Auras that drew lots of Threat) was severely curtailed when I couldn't engage them all in parallel and had to deal with them all onesy-twosy in a sequential fashion.

It was something I tried to be very aware of when I was playing Topheavy Gs, my Gravity/Time Controller, such that I tried to keep Crushing Field out of my standard rotation of attacks so as to only use it when it was situationally "helpful" as opposed to every time it recharged in my standard attack chain, because I *knew* what it was like being on the other end of that kind of behavior.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Brand X
Brand X's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 hours 1 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

I had the same thing happen plenty often when I was playing my Ice/Ice Tanker, Shirayukihime, while duoing with Lin's alt, a Plant/TA Controller, Ibarahime. As an Ice/Ice Tanker, the whole point and purpose of my build was to act as Aggro Magnet Flypaper, drawing everything in close for maximum Energy Absorption to maximize my Defense and minimize my incoming Damage ... and almost every time my Real Life friend driving the Plant Controller would throw out the Immobilize before the herd had clustered up on me. In Lin Chiao Feng's defense, the reason for this bit of "bad timing" in the use of Roots to Immobilize was simply due to the fact that throwing it out early was just the place that Power had in the standard attack chain rotation ... so it went against the grain to "mix things up" to make life easier for me, as the Tanker inhaling all the aggro, so as to make my life easier in order to accelerate our damage throughput efficiency. Because when the Foe NPCs were even lightly scattered around and held Immobilized, the efficiency and effectiveness of my Chilling Embrace and Icicles (both PBAoE Auras that drew lots of Threat) was severely curtailed when I couldn't engage them all in parallel and had to deal with them all onesy-twosy in a sequential fashion.
It was something I tried to be very aware of when I was playing Topheavy Gs, my Gravity/Time Controller, such that I tried to keep Crushing Field out of my standard rotation of attacks so as to only use it when it was situationally "helpful" as opposed to every time it recharged in my standard attack chain, because I *knew* what it was like being on the other end of that kind of behavior.

Not to mention, part of Ice Armor's survival was an Ice Patch. Which a lot of (not all) immobilizes tended to negate.

Redlynne
Redlynne's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 5 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Ice Patch was something you

Ice Patch was something you grew into and then grew out of again over the level progression to the Level Cap. Once you got up into the Incarnate stuff the Ice Patch was of very limited and situational value ... particularly when the Devs handed out Knockback resistance like it was a party favor that was going out of style.

/em glares balefully at BAF Prisoner Escape Phase ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
Automatisch
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 6 months ago
Joined: 12/19/2013 - 14:53
Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

I choose Knock-through!
;>

Hmm if that is an option it could yeild a new form of combat. Imagine getting slammed into the sewer system below and then jumping back through the blacktop to catch your foe by suprise. A classic super fight.

I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.

Col. Kernel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 10/11/2013 - 14:08
GH wrote:
GH wrote:

Tank: I'm going to go.. wtf.. who put down these vines?
Plantman : Me. It's what I do.
Tank : Well you're stopping ME from doing what I do.
Phasewoman : I've phased the bunch ahead so we can just skip them
Tank : WTF.. I was going to HERD THEM
Stalker : Guys, I've gone on ahead and clicked the glowie so the mission is over in 5 seconds.
Nrg/Nrg Blaster : Lol, first mission it hasn't been my fault
Tank... /kicks the blaster.. "nobody likes a smartass"

Good job, GH!

You've summed up this thread in a single post!

Zombie Man
Zombie Man's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 07/26/2013 - 19:23
Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Ice Patch was something you grew into and then grew out of again over the level progression to the Level Cap. Once you got up into the Incarnate stuff the Ice Patch was of very limited and situational value ... particularly when the Devs handed out Knockback resistance like it was a party favor that was going out of style.
/em glares balefully at BAF Prisoner Escape Phase ...

The BAF escapees were KB-proof purposely as part of the 'game.' However, incarnate level foes were not particular KB resistant to KB powers that were mag 2 or higher.

My Dark Defender had Torrent which was a formidable KB cone. During Lambda, my DD could keep the crowd around the target objects indisposed half the time, especially enough to be -Acc debuffed to take the edge off their attacks. In the Mayhem trial, I could then push around the psychic whirlwinds to debuff Penny-Mother's invincibility (and hold them there with tentacles). In the Diabolique trial, I pushed the incoming EB ambushes into the center of attack of the giant AV so that they wouldn't stand at the edges picking off the squishies (same tactic on Mothership with Magi).

What made Torrent so spectacular that I would keep it in a Dark/Dark build with so many other good choices was that it specialized in KB. KB was what it did, and it did it to a whole crowd, and it was a high Mag such that it was almost always effective (as a lead off v. a Cimeroran crowd, it stopped their internal buffage routine making other mezzes effective).

What I hated about other powers with KB was when they were part of a damage attack. This means that if you're attacking, you'll be doing KB whether you want to or not. Or when they were low magnitude such that you couldn't count on the KB. Or, as mentioned above, when the KB was radial and scattery. In those cases, KB should have been KockDown.

Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator

GH
GH's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 7 months ago
Joined: 10/13/2013 - 08:49
Automatisch wrote:
Automatisch wrote:

Hmm if that is an option it could yeild a new form of combat. Imagine getting slammed into the sewer system below and then jumping back through the blacktop to catch your foe by suprise. A classic super fight.

Ha that reminded me of the times when you'd end up in someone elses' mission. Was that an AE glitch? A summer event glitch? Feels like sooo long ago..

Back to retirement.

If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev

Archmonoth
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 9 months ago
kickstarter
Joined: 02/17/2014 - 10:32
Knockback and knockup are

Knockback and knockup are fantastic ways to make powers FEEL useful without dealing min/max damage.

I would like to see knockback magnitude of 0-1 having no effect and 1-2 having knockdown and 2-3 having the knockback affect. This means a few things:

1. All powers could have some knockback magnitude, however they are only seen in a group setting ( magnitude being less than 1)

2. Knockback is something you could choose to get by increasing it via chaining powers or enhancements utilizing its mitigation effect. (changing powers to reach magnitude 1+ for the knockdown effect) An example is fireball, with 1 person then see nothing but casting fireball while someone also cast another fireball/power then it knocks them down.

3. Rewards coordination for the knockdown/mitigation.

4. Could add negative knockback magnitude powers (like roots/cages ect) as well as negative knockback enchantments. A super uppercut power could have a large knockback but does a TON of damage. You can choose to reduce the knockback to a knockdown OR do more damage while losing some DPS most likely.

5.Having a katana/melee person with 1 easy negative value knockback power would also prevent knocback junkies from reducing your single target damage dealer's effectiveness.

Knockback was very dynamic in CoX and I liked it, a little more refinement on the magnitude could make the depth for the FEEL that it provides while limiting the frustration of chasing knocked back foes.

Col. Kernel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
Joined: 10/11/2013 - 14:08
KB and KD need to be separate

KB and KD need to be separate mechanics.

We all saw what happened when you put an Ice Slick under Clockwork Gears. They got knocked back, sometimes 2 rooms.

This is why KB and KD need to be separate values.

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 19 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Last I heard, they were. We

Last I heard, they were. We had Knock and Slip on the MWM Forums.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Thunder Glove
Thunder Glove's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 7 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/20/2013 - 17:09
No mention of what Champions

No mention of what Champions Online (I know, I know) calls Knock-To - i.e., an attack that pulls a target closer rather than knocking them back? That should also probably be a mechanic. (It could just be Knockback with negative values and a different animation of the character falling onto their face instead of onto their back)

Pengy
Pengy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 10 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/09/2013 - 10:40
Yes, knock-to was mentioned

Yes, knock-to was mentioned also.

oOStaticOo
oOStaticOo's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 7 months ago
Joined: 10/24/2013 - 06:21
I believe that Knock back

I believe that Knock back should be rare. It's more than likely that you'll Knock down someone than knock them back. Super Strength should have Knock down, Knock up, and Knock back depending upon which attack is used. Martial Arts should have some Knock back, but mostly Knock down. Energy blasts should have lots of Knock back. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Knock back, I just feel like it should be represented in a more realistic way. Also give resistances to Knock back, Knock down, and Knock up accordingly. This way it makes it harder to Knock something around depending on what powers people are using. Super Reflexes would be obviously harder to Knock down than to Knock back. Invulnerability would be harder to Knock back or Knock down. Etc. Don't take Knock powers away, just make them more realistic in their use and resistance.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

Nova
Nova's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: 02/07/2014 - 15:43
I'm going to go out on a limb

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume KB/KU won't be as strong as say...in DBZ. :P

Tibit
Tibit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 5 months ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/17/2014 - 21:42
Always loved knocked downs

Always loved knocked downs

Tiny bot of def

Interdictor
Interdictor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 3 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 08/22/2013 - 05:26
See - I can see benefits to

See - I can see benefits to both "back" and "up/down" - depending on the character and/or situation. For instance my Storm Summoning Defender used knockbacks to great effect (both solo and teaming) - it fit with his role and powers. On the other hand my Energy Blast Defender wished that his powers worked differently depending on whom he was teaming with; when soloing or teaming with ranged ATs I didn't mind the knockback. But when teaming with melee-types, or ATs that relies on auras/positioning, knockback could be a pain.

I don't know - maybe a way to toggle between the different types of "knock" (some or all of them) for our powers could be a good compromise if technically possible and if thematically sound?

McNum
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 38 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 06:49
Interdictor wrote:
Interdictor wrote:

See - I can see benefits to both "back" and "up/down" - depending on the character and/or situation. For instance my Storm Summoning Defender used knockbacks to great effect (both solo and teaming) - it fit with his role and powers. On the other hand my Energy Blast Defender wished that his powers worked differently depending on whom he was teaming with; when soloing or teaming with ranged ATs I didn't mind the knockback. But when teaming with melee-types, or ATs that relies on auras/positioning, knockback could be a pain.
I don't know - maybe a way to toggle between the different types of "knock" (some or all of them) for our powers could be a good compromise if technically possible and if thematically sound?

No, a toggle is not compromise, it's a griefing tool. We've been over this. Social pressure is a thing and the game shouldn't encourage that due to some people wanting to control every aspect of someone else's character.

The only real solution is to make knockback universally awesome, and make sure it has enough benefits to outweigh the inherent drawbacks it has, or find a way to minimize the drawback through creative interplay with powers. One suggestion was to make tanking powers "sticky" so it would be easy to knock enemies towards them, but hard to knock enemies away from them, so to speak.

Another idea would be to have more environment hazards, making the ability to knock enemies into those a valuable skill. But having explosive red barrels all over would look silly.

But please, no toggles. It'll just give the fun-killers another tool to bully other players with. And they don't need more of those.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
That is your opinion on it

That is your opinion on it and others will beg to differ.

If knock back was a prevalent as it was in CoX then there is the argument for it...

If it is *less* than it was in CoX, then I could understand keeping it as is.

Just my tuppence on it though.

However, "social pressure" can go the other way as well but saying "its my way or the high way" (even if it is the case of "stop knocking back as much")

I trust that you will NEVER complain about other players knocking mobs when you are teamed with them...

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

McNum
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 38 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 06:49
Why would I? Someone knocking

Why would I? Someone knocking an enemy away when I'm playing melee types just means I switch target.

I did give some new players tips on how to use knockback, since being good at it was a skill, but complain? No. It's just too much fun to see the enemies flying across the room. And when someone really good at knockback unleashed the fury, it was just beautiful. Like a Storm Summoner who had mastered the chaos. Tagging the enemy with hurricanes, planting the cloud where it'd hit enemies exactly where they needed to go, tossing tornadoes at the tougher enemies keeping them off their feet while being shredded. That's when City of Heroes truly shined.

So, no, I saw the potential in knockback, I had several character that fought above their intended power curve because I knew how to effectively use knockback. An enemy that's ragdolled is an enemy not attacking.

And this is what I hope to see in City of Titans. More knockback. Melee finishing moves, positioning tools to shunt an enemy away, ranged cone and spheres knocking the enemy away from me, maybe even reversed so I can knock an enemy towards me, like a grappling hook power or similar, and generally punching a guy across the street, maybe through a wall and into a car for bonus damage.

So, complain about knockback? Nah. I want more of it. And I want it to be powerful, both in the sheer kinetic feel of it and in terms of mechanical effects. Getting knocked down should be a serious disadvantage for both player and enemy. Maybe make attacks do more damage to downed targets, and the more powerful the knockback, the longer they stay down.

I mean it's going to be Unreal Engine 4 and that comes with a pretty good physics package. Would truly be a waste not to use it for knockback and I can dream of deformable objects reacting to it, too. And hopefully we'll not get enemies stuck inside a wall here. Even if it looked funny to see a ragdolled enemy with his head embedded in a wall. Not getting up from THAT one.

In a more game design point of view, enemy positioning tools should be highly valued if the relative position of allies and enemies in 3D space is to matter. CoH had it too easy with the way Taknkers could herd. Some enemies should just flatout refuse to clump up like that, making it needed to move them around in more direct ways.

Xnarl
Xnarl's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 1 week ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/07/2013 - 22:27
I really like to throw

I really like to throw enemies over the edge... a reason to inherit City's of Heroes "auto-rewards" so I do not have to go down myself (even worse with bottomless pits...)
And in this case, it might be fun, that after barely surviving a fall, an enemy staggers away/surrenders (counts as defeat), glad to be alive.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
"Knock to"... GAH! I HATE

"Knock to"... GAH! I HATE HATE HATE HATE hearing that term...

And to be fair I have ONLY fever heard it on these forums as well. Was it commonly used on the CoX forums? Because on other MMO forums they have been called "Gap closers", "Pulling" moves... but I have never read of "Knock to" apart from on these forums.

*bashes head against desk*.

I can see the useage of knock back and I am not opposed to it. However I would sometimes like to be able to *tone down* my own knock back if need be. If anything, I would like there to be an enhancement that could convert knock back to knock down (if I so desired).

That is if the case of "pulling my blow" normally (for single target attacks that is) is not possible.

The thing is, I am not saying "remove knockback from the game", I want knockback to be IN the game... however I would like it so that I could tweak the knock back... so if there are enhancements to *increase* the knockback, I would also like there to be enhancements that would convert knockback to knock down/knock up (player choice here).

It would add more variety to the game.

Of course, this is assuming that knockback works like it did in CoX where it was a *chance* of knockback.

Hell for all we know, the game could be set up so that you can flick between builds at any moment you are not in combat, and that there are knockback/knock up/knock down versions of the same powers to choose from (now that would be fun and interesting).

Hell, I would even possibly limit the "pulling of blows" to just the single target 100% guaranteed abilities...

Once again, this is all dependent as to how powerful the knockbacks are (do they shoot mobs off the field, or just to 10 meters away or what not).

But outright flat out denying the option of this because it can lead to "social bullying" is strange in my mind... because in a fashion you are doing the same thing... you are trying to stamp your "way of playing the game" onto others. What I am trying to do is give players the option of being able to tone it down themselves.

There could well be situations in the game where knock back is very handy, and other times where it *isnt* handy.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
Xnarl wrote:
Xnarl wrote:

I really like to throw enemies over the edge... a reason to inherit City's of Heroes "auto-rewards" so I do not have to go down myself (even worse with bottomless pits...)
And in this case, it might be fun, that after barely surviving a fall, an enemy staggers away/surrenders (counts as defeat), glad to be alive.

bottomless pits should rarely be used in the game, and if they are they are for special occasions (ie boss fights) and you can easily code it so that when he dies a rewards window pops up ie when you completed the LRSF/STF etc etc and you had choices of what to pick for completing it.

The rewards in this case would be "better" than what you would normally get for defeating the mobs there.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 7 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

But outright flat out denying the option of this because it can lead to "social bullying" is strange in my mind... because in a fashion you are doing the same thing... you are trying to stamp your "way of playing the game" onto others. What I am trying to do is give players the option of being able to tone it down themselves.

+1

I can see some people bowing to peer pressure to turn off/down their knockback. I can see others saying, "Give me a chance, or kick me and I'll find a different group." And if there is no way to tone down or turn off knockback besides not taking powers that have knockback, I can see some people skipping the knockback entirely, while others take the knockback. Which way results in more knockback overall? I have no clue, and absent any hard data on what people choose, I would prefer to go with more options rather than fewer.

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Avatar courtesy of Satellite Nine.
If you can't see an image I've posted, please let me know!

McNum
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 38 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 06:49
Honestly, I wouldn't be

Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to have most knockback be rather mild. If you've played the Batman Arkham games, he knocks enemies all over the place, but rarely much further than he can follow up with a punch or ground move. And if it's good enough for Batman, it's good enough for most heroes. It's basically just making the enemies ragdoll and applying the vector of Batman's punch to them. Or kick. Or Explosve Gel. Or half a wall sent flying BY Explosive Gel. Non-lethally, of course.

But... I do want some "POW!" powers, too. Target enemy, use power, enemy is now WAY over there. It's a very superhero thing to do, and I'd sorely miss it if it wasn't there. My favorite power in CoH was Force Bolt, a very "pure" power. Target enemy at range. "POW!" Enemy is now flying through the air. With some practice, I learned how to aim them, making it a very, very versatile power, and the bane of any powerful enemy not outright immune to knockback.

Speaking of which... knockback immunity is bogus. I mean, yeah, some enemy might have a power that makes sense for him to just not move unless he wants to, but for all powerful enemies? No, lesser effect, maybe, they could have the quick get-up that players used in CoH, but I want to see powerful enemies get knock around a bit, too.

Zanje
Zanje's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 months ago
Joined: 03/11/2014 - 13:05
If this was brought up i

If this was brought up i apologize, but it would be really cool if they added environmental factors into Knock back, imagine doing extra damage for knocking a guy into a wall, some explosive barrels, or some crazy power conduit? that'd be sweet.

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 57 min 21 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
Zanje wrote:
Zanje wrote:

If this was brought up i apologize, but it would be really cool if they added environmental factors into Knock back, imagine doing extra damage for knocking a guy into a wall, some explosive barrels, or some crazy power conduit? that'd be sweet.

+1. And "Knock-to" in CO and DCUO are useful tools for Tanks. As long as it makes sense, looks cool, and feels POWERFUL!!!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
They dont even need to look

They dont even need to look really powerful.

Think about Scorpions Harpoon move in Mortal Kombat. It didn't really do all that much damage, but it was an effective gap closer.

Totally off the cuff idea for one: Lasso, whips, chains... Now granted, that is the *single target* version, and just off the top off my head... but for groups? Nets and dragging them towards you can be done as well...

Annoyingly, most of the moves like these in other games dont necessarily do a lot of damage, but they can typically have a *stun* component associated with them, so that when they arrive next to you, you get a couple of free hits.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

desviper
desviper's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 28 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/10/2014 - 00:55
I feel that KB and KU should

I feel that KB and KU should be in the game: melee-based and explosion-based attacks are, in my opinion, egregiously incomplete without the ability to knock an opponent back several feet (or more, but that could go nuts fast) or uppercut/stomp one high into the air. However, it can be a hassle in teams where positioning is important, it can also help to position, but when the team is bashing on an AV, H, GM, or whatever, it's more harm than good, so I think it should be toggle-able.

PS: Some of the most entertaining times of CoH for me were crane kicking soldiers and mobsters off high buildings they just loved to stand at the edge of. :p

One more wish, I'm fuzzy on this, but I remember CoH having NPCs who were killed with a KB/KU move not get knocked. Idk how developmentally intensive this is, but it's just so much less fun to have a KB/KU move that can't FINISH HIM It gives a nice "and STAY DOWN" feeling to the end of a boss.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

Please have Scaling decals!

Avatar by MikeNovember

Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 57 min 21 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I feel that KB and KU should be in the game: melee-based and explosion-based attacks are, in my opinion, egregiously incomplete without the ability to knock an opponent back several feet (or more, but that could go nuts fast) or uppercut/stomp one high into the air. However, it can be a hassle in teams where positioning is important, it can also help to position, but when the team is bashing on an AV, H, GM, or whatever, it's more harm than good, so I think it should be toggle-able.
PS: Some of the most entertaining times of CoH for me were crane kicking soldiers and mobsters off high buildings they just loved to stand at the edge of. :p
One more wish, I'm fuzzy on this, but I remember CoH having NPCs who were killed with a KB/KU move not get knocked. Idk how developmentally intensive this is, but it's just so much less fun to have a KB/KU move that can't FINISH HIM It gives a nice "and STAY DOWN" feeling to the end of a boss.

I used the Fighting Pool kick as an attack on my SS main because it made me giggle like a schoolgirl when I'd knock a bad guy down and then as he was getting up kick him in the face so hard that he flew across the room.

I SAID STAY DOWN!

Damn CoH was fun :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

McNum
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 38 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 06:49
So, I've been thinking a bit

So, I've been thinking a bit more about knockback and its ilk in games in general, not just MMOs, and I'm wondering if we aren't missing a few variants from the game. Honestly, it seems to me that part of CoH's issues with knockback was that it and knockdown was the same status effect. It didn't leave much open to do neat variants.

So, just to add a bit of data to the discussions, I've identified a few types of knockdown/back//up that I've seen in games. Most of which just weren't possible in CoH. I'll use Street Fighter as an example, as it has several types of knocks. Street Fighter 4 in particular has three types of knockdown. Crumple, Soft, and Hard.

Crumple Knockdown
Crumple knockdown is really a knock at all, you hit the opponent and they slowly fall over, then get back up. Like when Ryu does a powerful gut-punch, making the enemy reel over on pain. This is a very desirable state to get the opponent into... because he can't do anything other than fall over, yet he's completely vulnerable to attack. If you have an Ultra move ready to launch, this is not the worst time to use it. Not the best either, but it's a clear opening.

Soft Knockdown
You hit the enemy with a strike that knocks them back a bit, but as soon as they hit the ground, they spring back up. Or if it happens air-to-air, they might even recover before landing. This is more pronounced in a game like Marvel vs. Capcom 3, though. Street fighter isn't that aerial a game. This is.. a fleeting advantage at best. You get to control the opponent's movement for a bit and he can't act while falling, but very few players and characters can do an awesome followup here. Do watch out for those who CAN, though.

Hard Knockdown
Same as above, except the opponent can't do a quick get-up. A lot of characters can benefit from this, if your timing is perfect, you can make the opponent get up into an attack, but beware reversals. The point being, the opponent is down, and it will take the same amount of time for him to get up. (Except in the upcoming Ultra Street Fighter 4 where you can delay getting up to throw off the opponent's timing.)

Not that I think that we'll have Street Fighter like fights, but the split between a crumple, a soft, and a hard knock seems like something we might be able to use. Especially the crumple state. But soft knockdown has its purpose, too, for player powers. You punch someone, he falls down, and gets back up immediately to rejoin the fight. It's not much of an advantage or disadvantage, but it gives the power a bit more oomph in its look. The hard knockdown is pretty much what CoH had. You knock someone into ragdoll state, and he doesn't get back up until the ragdoll stops moving too much.

And, of course, there's the Mega Man knock. Take damage, get moved backwards a bit, don't fall down. Could be used if there's a knockback resistance in the game. You don't get the full effect, but you get to see your impact had some effect.

It's just something I wanted to add to the debate. There's more ways to knock than what CoH did.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
All of those can be done via

All of those can be done via a similar magnitude system that CoX had, so depending on how your power was slotted (and its base stats) you could do it that way. Resistances can also come into play (-mag ability on mobs for example) so that whilst you might not be able to *hard knockdown* the mob, you could soft/crumple them.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

McNum
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 38 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 06:49
Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

All of those can be done via a similar magnitude system that CoX had, so depending on how your power was slotted (and its base stats) you could do it that way. Resistances can also come into play (-mag ability on mobs for example) so that whilst you might not be able to *hard knockdown* the mob, you could soft/crumple them.

But that was kind of my point. They shouldn't be. Tying distance and magnitude together and then having low magnitude also be a different effect just made enhancing knockback powers messy. You wanted a power to hit harder, but still just do knockdown? You couldn't. If it was a separate effect from knockback, you would have been able to.

I'm thinking you'd at least need two factors to make a versatile knockback system. Power and distance. Angle might be nice, too, but we'll leave that one out here. Power means "Will it fall?" and distance "How far?" Maybe even have different thresholds for power, so the more you exceed the target's resistance, the longer they stay down. That'd be fun to have in a KO blow like power. Hit the enemy and they don't get up for a while.

Gangrel
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/15/2013 - 15:14
I think having *too many*

I think having *too many* different types though would be confusing though. Would they all be resisted by the same stat or would you need different resistances for each of them?

Hell, soft knockdown could well just be treated as a "stun attack" so it wouldn't necessarily be called a "knock back/down/up" attack.

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

Tenzhi
Tenzhi's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: 03/29/2014 - 01:30
Knock Up was my favourite in

Knock Up was my favourite in CoH. All the fun and temporary enemy-incapacitation of Knock Back while ultimately keeping the enemy in about the same spot, and it always seemed to me that most Knock Down abilities would have made more sense as small Knock Up effects rather than small Knock Back effects.

7thGate
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 3 days ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/03/2013 - 20:24
Personally, I think that the

Personally, I think that the best way to make knockback useful is to make it do damage when people hit things after being knocked back. Get knocked back into a wall, take damage. Get knocked back into another enemy, knock the enemy down and have both take damage. Since knockback is already a very powerful control effect, it might make it too strong, but I feel like it would be thematically appropriate and would decrease the hate because it is directly contributing to killing things. You could get a little bit of this from knocking things off buildings in CoH, where they would take falling damage, but that was not often possible in missions.

Also, I would like to see some effect from high magnitude knockback on most villains. Things like force bolt did nothing to Archvillains in CoH. What I would like to see is a system where knockback has a range of effects from blasting an enemy a huge distance at high velocity, to just knocking them down, to doing nothing. I would like to see there be a window between getting knocked down and doing nothing where the enemy is momentarily knocked back a step, preventing them from doing anything for half a second or so while they recover from being knocked off balance. It could be scaled so something like force bolt still does nothing to giant monsters, would disrupt an archvillain for half a second or so, and would punt minions across the room.

TTheDDoctor
TTheDDoctor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/29/2014 - 15:26
desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

One more wish, I'm fuzzy on this, but I remember CoH having NPCs who were killed with a KB/KU move not get knocked. Idk how developmentally intensive this is, but it's just so much less fun to have a KB/KU move that can't FINISH HIM It gives a nice "and STAY DOWN" feeling to the end of a boss.

Yeah, that was probably caused by the NPC's resistance to KB/KU efects, or maybe just the fact that most attacks only have a fairly low chance of knocking around opponents. If they never get knocked around even with 100% KB/KU rate attacks, then all the devs have to do is turn the resistances to everything off when they're KO'ed/killed/what-have-you so they go flying OR ALTERNATIVELY make their bodies suffer every control effect the finishing power would normally apply...

...I can almost imagine Hamidon getting sent into the heavens by a Knockout Blow.

<==========)===O|TtDd|O===(==========>
My original character profiles!

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
Inspectre wrote:
Inspectre wrote:

I loved Gale. One of my favorites. Also Power Push. And I took the Nemesis staff on almost every character I played. So much fun!

hmm. So..would you rather have Gale's wind instead blow enemies Up from under them for a KnockUp / KnockDown? You know, as if they were standing right under a Geiser? :) If you selected the KnockDown / KnockUp effect for Gale? :)
Or would be better if you just pressed down and HELD the power for an extra second for the power to switch from its defailt knockBack to KnockUp / KnockDown? :P

Or even the other way around. If you wanted Foot Stomp to KnockBack, since its by default KnockUp / KnockDown, you would have to wait an extra second before releasing the button or key. :)

At lower levels, i remember saving us all a few times with my peacebringer by scattering all the enemies away with his foot stomp. But as friends started to level up and get better, they found that power sooo annoying. They no love me no more! :(
If only i could have converted my PB's foot stomp from KnockBack to KnockUp/KnockDown in the higher levels (at the trainers, for a price). ;-;

Hmm.. that means the Devs would need to code it so that power casting was done on KeyUp or MouseUp... not on KeyDown or MouseDown. :/

A Shocking Conc...
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 1 day ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/08/2013 - 00:32
I vaguely recall a youtube

I vaguely recall a youtube video which showed 2 Blasters using Hellions as target practice. One was launching them into the air with,what,Power Push(?),from the Energy Blast set while the other proceeded to toast them via a Fireblast power while still in the air.

It was a riot seeing players being inventive in how they use their various powers in unexpected ways,that time via KnockDown/KnockUp.

Well,at least I think it was. It would be great if City of Titans was able to implement similar things,though its still way too early to even come close to see anything like it happen yet.

McNum
Offline
Last seen: 12 hours 38 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/31/2013 - 06:49
That was an amusing quirk of

That was an amusing quirk of how the game scaled effects. If you, as a level 50, did a powerful knockback attack on a level 1 Hellion, you could launch him out of rendering range. You would literally not see him land. Sadly, I never did manage to make one clear the Atlas Globe. You needed way more knockback than a Power Boosted +49 level Force Bolt for that.

It never did get old to just punt these guys, though.

TTheDDoctor
TTheDDoctor's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 6 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/29/2014 - 15:26
McNum wrote:
McNum wrote:

That was an amusing quirk of how the game scaled effects. If you, as a level 50, did a powerful knockback attack on a level 1 Hellion, you could launch him out of rendering range. You would literally not see him land. Sadly, I never did manage to make one clear the Atlas Globe. You needed way more knockback than a Power Boosted +49 level Force Bolt for that.
It never did get old to just punt these guys, though.

We need that in CoT. It isn't a superhero game unless if you can mule-kick a gangster across the map.

<==========)===O|TtDd|O===(==========>
My original character profiles!

Mind-Freeze
Mind-Freeze's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 14 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 04:28
I loved putting on force

I loved putting on force bubble and flying through mobs watching them take off lol

Leo_G
Leo_G's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 days 23 hours ago
Joined: 07/17/2014 - 20:19
Not going to discuss the

Not going to discuss the intricacies of kb as that is a dead old subject.

Instead, since this will be a new superhero environment, why not look at possible ways kb could enhance gameplay? Like for a melee type, lets say each has the option to choose a "charge/tackle" ability and said ability was one of their more powerful attacks. Let's continue on that line of thought and track on a mechanic that makes those charges attacks even stronger on engaged and distant targets. Hm?

Izzy
Izzy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 weeks ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/09/2013 - 11:09
Leo_G wrote:
Leo_G wrote:

Not going to discuss the intricacies of kb as that is a dead old subject.
Instead, since this will be a new superhero environment, why not look at possible ways kb could enhance gameplay? Like for a melee type, lets say each has the option to choose a "charge/tackle" ability and said ability was one of their more powerful attacks. Let's continue on that line of thought and track on a mechanic that makes those charges attacks even stronger on engaged and distant targets. Hm?

There was some brief mention of KnockBack mechanics...
... MWM was testing something along these lines:

And I assume the same goes for Queing Up the next attack power.

- press attack power
-- effect: KnockBack* (greenish tint to show its Que'd up)
- press and hold attack power for half a second
-- effect: KnockDown* (yellowish tint to show its Que'd up)