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"Kill 10 __________ to find ________" missions idea

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Tortuga
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"Kill 10 __________ to find ________" missions idea

An idea I had back in the CoH days...

When there are "Kill 10 __________ to find ________" missions, we all know the item we're looking for (a key, plans, detonator, etc) is going to be with the last enemy we defeat. To make this process more dynamic, why not add an increasing chance factor to each kill.

For example, when needing to kill 10 enemies:
Enemy #1 has a 2% chance of carrying the object
... #2 has a 5% chance
... #3 has a 10% chance
... #4 has a 15% chance
... #5 has a 20% chance
... #6 has a 35% chance
... #7 has a 40% chance
... #8 has a 45% chance
... #9 has a 50% chance
... #10 has a 100% chance

If needing to defeat more enemies for a mission, the percentage increases could be smaller.

This would certainly make these usually tedious but often story-relevant missions more fun and realistic.

"Ooga booga! It's Tortuga!!"

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I have nothing against your

I have nothing against your suggestion other than I'd hope those kinds of missions (even with a "fix" like yours) would be kept to an absolute minimum.

Ironically it's knowing the "number" of critters to kill for these missions that makes them bad from a story point of view. The game could mechanically have the same "Kill 10 X to find Y" missions but just reword them to say "go out and kill some X critters to find the key you need". With that wording it seems a bit more "natural" like you're just having to be naturally "lucky" to find a random key when in reality you'd find that key regardless by the time you kill 10 of them. Do you see the difference?

P.S. BTW welcome to the CoT forums. :)

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Doctor Tyche
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If we were to code in an

If we were to code in an increasing chance, then the lucky players who do get the opportunity would in turn gain less XP than those who were unlucky. After a few days of play, there would be a distinct level difference between the two.

Technical Director

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My guess is it would 'all

My guess is it would 'all come out in the wash', so to speak. Everyone would still get mission XP, which would be the bulk of it.

And Lothic, yup, that's the right idea for sure.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

If we were to code in an increasing chance, then the lucky players who do get the opportunity would in turn gain less XP than those who were unlucky. After a few days of play, there would be a distinct level difference between the two.

I think a static chance per mob would be all you need. The laws of probability alone would take care of the number of "kills" the "average" player would have to go through. So if you made it 10% per mob, then the average player would take 10 mobs to get it. But that could also mean that there is an unlucky player out there doing the same mission a year and a half later. So you could also cut it off at 20 or so and just give it to the poor character at that point.

But Tortuga also has the right of it. The chances of any player getting the item on the first couple mobs EVERY TIME repeatedly enough that it would effect his or her experience growth is miniscule.

But @Doctor Tyche, since you did make that statement, are you telling is that the mission completion experience is minor compared to the combat experience? How is experience going to be computed?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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It is. It as cut and dry as

It is. It as cut and dry as standing by the laws of probability. A 10% chance does. It always mean 10 out of a 100 or once out of every 10 tries.

You can get a fail on 27 out of 30 trials and it would still be a 10% chance. But it still took 27 occurrences of not getting what you want.

Because we are dealing with odds as well.

With regards to completion rewards, it isn’t as cut and dry as you assume, Huckleberry.

We have this system of Challenged and Ahcievements which affect reward bonuses. Someone who completes defeats all the spawns in a mission gets a bonus for that.

Someone who avoids detection (except for objeciived) gets a bonus for that.

Then there is what to do when instead of requiring a kill count to find the macguffin, someone uses different powers to detect who / where it is and zeroed on on that one guy. Which may go to the stealth bonus if they stealth to him, but if they don’t...

Personally, I would want to avoid the kill X of y missions as a design crutch because it limits alternate methods of play. I don’t have the authority to dictate that to the mission writers however.


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Huckleberry
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We have this system of Challenged and Ahcievements which affect reward bonuses. Someone who completes defeats all the spawns in a mission gets a bonus for that.

That's great! I know of at least one other game with quests like that. Archeage even gives bonus XP for overachieving.

Tannim222 wrote:

Someone who avoids detection (except for [objectives]) gets a bonus for that.

Sweeet. I like this so there isn't a "stealth penalty" associated with the loot and XP you didn't get because you didn't defeat any mobs in combat.

Tannim222 wrote:

Then there is what to do when instead of requiring a kill count to find the macguffin, someone uses different powers to detect who / where it is and zeroed on on that one guy. Which may go to the stealth bonus if they stealth to him, but if they don’t...

This is squee worthy. To think that there will be powers coded into the game that allow us to do this, makes me very excited. It also makes power selection a bit more strategic.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Doctor Tyche
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Good friend of mine used to

Good friend of mine used to play "No Witnesses", a stalker.

He would not kill anyone in a mission, unless someone saw him. If they did see him, he had to clear the map in order to leave no witnesses.

I want to encourage that kind of gameplay with new stealth mechanics.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Honestly I'm just glad to

Honestly I'm just glad to hear a lot of talk about stealth mechanics here.

^_^

Necessary: Can we crit out of Stealth?

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I'm not a fan of any "defeat

I'm not a fan of any "defeat x enemies" quests. I find them to be incredibly lazy quests that don't add anything to a game/world. Unless there is literally -only- that amount of enemies in an area.

So a quest that's "defeat 10 boars" to stop them eating crops, but because of MMO spawn rates your impact to the stated quest reason is non existent.

A quest that's like "defeat 10 boars" but it's in an instance with only 10 of them? Fine. They're gone.

Same as any "collect x of y by defeating z" especially when it's something that should drop 100% of the time. "Collect 10 crocodile teeth by defeating crocodiles" and you get a max of 1 per kill, and not all the time. What the butts? I should be able to get all of them from one! Have you seen crocodiles!? They're like, all teeth!

For missions like this I'd prefer them to be just small instances then it's like "Raid the enemy warehouse to get the evidence you need" then it's an item just around. Or "defeat all enemies in this instance". Running about kicking butt for a chance to get the thing you need isn't fun. The ramping chance suggested in the OP would help mitigate that, but why even have missions like that to begin with? I don't think anyone likes them.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Same as any "collect x of y by defeating z" especially when it's something that should drop 100% of the time. "Collect 10 crocodile teeth by defeating crocodiles" and you get a max of 1 per kill, and not all the time. What the butts? I should be able to get all of them from one! Have you seen crocodiles!? They're like, all teeth!

For missions like this I'd prefer them to be just small instances then it's like "Raid the enemy warehouse to get the evidence you need" then it's an item just around. Or "defeat all enemies in this instance". Running about kicking butt for a chance to get the thing you need isn't fun. The ramping chance suggested in the OP would help mitigate that, but why even have missions like that to begin with? I don't think anyone likes them.

Hear hear! While the old game had some 'Defeat x' missions, it thankfully didn't have any where there was only a chance of getting the required item. When I tried WoW and encountered this sort of 'crocodile quest' the complete lapse in logic annoyed the heck out of me.

I sincerely hope if CoT absolutely must have content of this type that it is implemented more like our old superhero game and not like WoW's version.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Good friend of mine used to play "No Witnesses", a stalker.

He would not kill anyone in a mission, unless someone saw him. If they did see him, he had to clear the map in order to leave no witnesses.

I want to encourage that kind of gameplay with new stealth mechanics.

Ooh, I'm liking this! I had a stalker whose powers came from his suit, but the suit wasn't waterproof, so if he ever got wet I made myself turn off his stealth power for a while.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

If we were to code in an increasing chance, then the lucky players who do get the opportunity would in turn gain less XP than those who were unlucky. After a few days of play, there would be a distinct level difference between the two.

I would agree that if everyone had to run like dozens of these "kill X number of critter" type of missions in a row where people could potentially complete each of them with significantly different amounts of XP than yes, after some time, there would be a distinct level difference between everyone involved.

But honestly I'm hoping the game is not going to force us to have to complete vast numbers of these exact types of missions in order for that to be an issue in the first place. If this game makes us have to do the same kind of mission that many times in a row then something is significantly more wrong than worrying about mere XP/level differences between players.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I have nothing against your suggestion other than I'd hope those kinds of missions (even with a "fix" like yours) would be kept to an absolute minimum.

Ironically it's knowing the "number" of critters to kill for these missions that makes them bad from a story point of view. The game could mechanically have the same "Kill 10 X to find Y" missions but just reword them to say "go out and kill some X critters to find the key you need". With that wording it seems a bit more "natural" like you're just having to be naturally "lucky" to find a random key when in reality you'd find that key regardless by the time you kill 10 of them. Do you see the difference?

P.S. BTW welcome to the CoT forums. :)

I like this idea the best.
Just don't tell us we need to kill 10 Rooks. The 10th will always have the info. But we do not need to know that.
Mission. "The Rooks are hiding a hostage, Go beat on them until one talks."

Lothic hit on a good solution.

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When I played GW2 with a

When I played GW2 with a friend of mine, we had pretty different play styles. He researched the fastest methods of getting XP and/or loot online and then went and did that. I explored the outdoor map for the bonuses you got from finding Waypoints and doing Hero challenges. He got to the level cap before I did, but when I got there shortly after, I had EVERY waypoint unlocked and EVERY Hero point earned. When we played together we mostly did dungeons and fractals. Those were fun group activities.

Some people will just try to find the most efficient way to get stuff, others will play to have the most fun. I don't think you can expect there to be "XP and loot parity" between those two modes, because the one group is actively trying to be more efficient than the other. I only took like a week longer to get to the cap than my friend though, so that was good. That said, he stopped playing the game after like a month of intensive grinding. I played every day-ish for like a year.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

I like this idea the best.
Just don't tell us we need to kill 10 Rooks. The 10th will always have the info. But we do not need to know that.
Mission. "The Rooks are hiding a hostage, Go beat on them until one talks."

Lothic hit on a good solution.

Or, if it's not hard to do make it a different random number, say between 8 and 12 or something, each time. Otherwise it won't take players long to figure out that it's really just a kill 10. I could see broadcasts like: "I just got the find the hostage mission, anyone want in?", "I'll come! You know that's just kill 10 Rooks, right?".

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Lothic
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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I have nothing against your suggestion other than I'd hope those kinds of missions (even with a "fix" like yours) would be kept to an absolute minimum.

Ironically it's knowing the "number" of critters to kill for these missions that makes them bad from a story point of view. The game could mechanically have the same "Kill 10 X to find Y" missions but just reword them to say "go out and kill some X critters to find the key you need". With that wording it seems a bit more "natural" like you're just having to be naturally "lucky" to find a random key when in reality you'd find that key regardless by the time you kill 10 of them. Do you see the difference?

P.S. BTW welcome to the CoT forums. :)

I like this idea the best.
Just don't tell us we need to kill 10 Rooks. The 10th will always have the info. But we do not need to know that.
Mission. "The Rooks are hiding a hostage, Go beat on them until one talks."

Lothic hit on a good solution.

Right, that was the general idea. But to be clear I'd add in Tortuga's suggestion of making this kind of thing semi-random so that players would simply be guaranteed to finish the mission by the time they defeated the 10th Rook (in this case). If they were semi-lucky they could find the info about the hostage on any of the first 9 Rooks as well.

This makes the whole thing slightly more "realistic" in that the game doesn't automatically always force you to beat up -exactly- X number of critters to succeed. Again using Cyclops' Rook example there's no saying which specific dude would have the right info and it's unrealistic to assume it would always have to be exactly the 10th guy you defeat. By making it random (while guaranteeing the worst case number) the whole affair would seem more "natural".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lothic
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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

I like this idea the best.
Just don't tell us we need to kill 10 Rooks. The 10th will always have the info. But we do not need to know that.
Mission. "The Rooks are hiding a hostage, Go beat on them until one talks."

Lothic hit on a good solution.

Or, if it's not hard to do make it a different random number, say between 8 and 12 or something, each time. Otherwise it won't take players long to figure out that it's really just a kill 10. I could see broadcasts like: "I just got the find the hostage mission, anyone want in?", "I'll come! You know that's just kill 10 Rooks, right?".

But if you add in Tortuga's randomization idea then the "max number" (8, 10, 12, whatever) would just be the "worst case guarantee" assuming you were unlucky enough to finish the mission sooner. The net effect is that each time any player runs the mission it would always be a different number to finish. Having a "max number guarantee" simply makes sure the mission is always "finishable" (with a pre-established hardwired maximum) regardless of the luck of the individual player.

P.S. The key difference is that the true "mission defeat max" that the Devs established would always be the same. This would allow the Devs to better plan their mission expectations. If they just let a mission have a semi-random end point (as you suggest) then it's hard to tell how long a mission is "expected" to run.

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If you're out in the street

If you're out in the street fighting Rooks for a mission, there's nothing stopping you from finishing up the rest of the Rook mob after you get the maguffin. You could even beat up a whole additional mob if you wanted to do it for the XP.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

If you're out in the street fighting Rooks for a mission, there's nothing stopping you from finishing up the rest of the Rook mob after you get the maguffin. You could even beat up a whole additional mob if you wanted to do it for the XP.

Right this idea doesn't stop anyone from defeating -more- Rooks even after you have the info. Also a mission like this could easily be geared so that there's a "group" of dudes you'd have to defeat. For example instead of say 1 to 10 Rooks it could be like 5-10. This would insure that players manage to earn at least some reasonable amount of XP from the mission because the minimum would be 5 in this case.

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The only missions I dislike

The only missions I dislike more are the quests where you are sent to talk to someone who then sends you to someone else who then sends you to a third to get the pieces of the story. A suggestion for this would be to make it a little more interactive. Like could there be an NPC that actually walks around in a certain zone and we are given a photograph or description and have to find them?

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Fallout1 wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

The only missions I dislike more are the quests where you are sent to talk to someone who then sends you to someone else who then sends you to a third to get the pieces of the story. A suggestion for this would be to make it a little more interactive. Like could there be an NPC that actually walks around in a certain zone and we are given a photograph or description and have to find them?

Yeah that sounds doable. For example let's say dudes from faction X usually wear black leather jackets but maybe you get a tip from someone who says that so-n-so likes to wear a red jacket so then you have to go find Mr. Red-jacket guy.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Fallout1 wrote:

The only missions I dislike more are the quests where you are sent to talk to someone who then sends you to someone else who then sends you to a third to get the pieces of the story. A suggestion for this would be to make it a little more interactive. Like could there be an NPC that actually walks around in a certain zone and we are given a photograph or description and have to find them?

Yeah that sounds doable. For example let's say dudes from faction X usually wear black leather jackets but maybe you get a tip from someone who says that so-n-so likes to wear a red jacket so then you have to go find Mr. Red-jacket guy.

Well he can't be all that unique....there has to be a chance for you to beat up several innocent NPCs before you find your man...Sure you could talk to them first...but where's the fun in that? and you can always repair your faction. That's the ticket!

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If you're looking for that

If you're looking for that one special NPC, it's easy to recognize them, because they're the one with a half-dozen heroes queued up to interact with them.

"Is this the Rook for the Kidnapping mission?"

"Yeah, take a number and get in line."

"What if I don't have time to wait? I've got to get to my dayjob."

"No problem, see the gal under the tree, over there? That's the Kidnapped Secretary, she can set you up with an appointment."

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

If you're looking for that one special NPC, it's easy to recognize them, because they're the one with a half-dozen heroes queued up to interact with them.

"Is this the Rook for the Kidnapping mission?"

"Yeah, take a number and get in line."

"What if I don't have time to wait? I've got to get to my dayjob."

"No problem, see the gal under the tree, over there? That's the Kidnapped Secretary, she can set you up with an appointment."

Be Well!
Fireheart

Reminds me of the problems I heard ESO had at launch.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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The wording in general can be

The wording in general can be changed to be a little more fitting.

"Rough up Rooks to get information about the drug ring" or something to that effect.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Or each mob you defeat gives

Or each mob you defeat gives you a clue to find who you are looking for. So, let's say at first there is a 33% chance that any mob you fight will tell you what flavor of mob your target is. So let's say one of them ends up stating that you have to find a Rook Slammer. Then you find and fight Rook Slammers who each have a 25% chance to give you the next clue. This Rook Slammer states that he did the job for a particular Bishop. Then you fight Bishops who each have a 50% chance of being the one you want. When you finally find him, he coughs up the MacGuffin. Adjust the percentages to suit.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Or each mob you defeat gives you a clue to find who you are looking for. So, let's say at first there is a 33% chance that any mob you fight will tell you what flavor of mob your target is. So let's say one of them ends up stating that you have to find a Rook Slammer. Then you find and fight Rook Slammers who each have a 25% chance to give you the next clue. This Rook Slammer states that he did the job for a particular Bishop. Then you fight Bishops who each have a 50% chance of being the one you want. When you finally find him, he coughs up the MacGuffin. Adjust the percentages to suit.

Sure, anything along those lines. The basic idea is the throw a bit of randomness in this so that we don't always have to have missions that are based on unnatural arbitrary thresholds (i.e. Defeat 10 Rooks to get MacGuffin).

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Good discussion folks. Just

Good discussion folks. Just trying to add some randomness to these sometimes necessary but usually tedious missions.

"Ooga booga! It's Tortuga!!"

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Honestly, I never minded 'em

Honestly, I never minded 'em in CoH. I'm gonna be bustin baddies anyway, might as well have a reason for the street sweeping I'd be doing anyway. I mean, obviously I wouldn't want most missions to be this, but every now and then doesn't bother me.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

[..] these "kill X number of critter" type of missions [...] But honestly I'm hoping the game is not going to force us to have to complete vast numbers of these exact types of missions in order for that to be an issue in the first place. If this game makes us have to do the same kind of mission that many times in a row then something is significantly more wrong than worrying about mere XP/level differences between players.

I can say for absolute certain that, while they will come up when the story requires it, they will not be numerous. Go kill X baddies just doesn't make sense from a story perspective in 99% of cases, so it's not going to be that common. When it is used, we likely won't tell you to "Go kill X Rooks" or whatever. We'll tell you to rough some up or similar. We won't tell you how many, and we will only restrict the location when it is absolutely reasonable to do so.

Fallout1 wrote:

The only missions I dislike more are the quests where you are sent to talk to someone who then sends you to someone else who then sends you to a third to get the pieces of the story. A suggestion for this would be to make it a little more interactive. Like could there be an NPC that actually walks around in a certain zone and we are given a photograph or description and have to find them?

Ah, ye olde "FedEx" missions....very early on, we actually set a hard rule: No FedEx missions unless absolutely critical. Sometimes it is completely reasonable to need to take something to someone. But that's rarely the entire mission, and almost never the entirety of the story (what fun is a story where you go from point A to point B and don't get to do anything?). The only times this type of mission would be used are as a prelude to other mission content (e.g. take thing x to person y, they tell you about thing x, and then you go bust some heads at location z), or to introduce a contact that you can only get through said introduction.

Basically, we don't like FedEx missions either.

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Sounds good to me.

Sounds good to me.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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ConundrumofFurballs wrote:
ConundrumofFurballs wrote:

Basically, we don't like FedEx missions either.

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does this mean that you'll

does this mean that you'll not fall in the daily and weekly missions system ? :)
*begging for mercy*


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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

does this mean that you'll not fall in the daily and weekly missions system ? :)
*begging for mercy*

If you're saying you don't like daily/weekly content, I'm with you on that.

I never really minded FedEx missions, but I do concede that they are not terribly imaginative in their basic form. The way MWM describes their version sounds much more interesting to me. I suppose in an MMO that has quest hubs I can kinda see a speck of usefulness for them to get you to the next hub, but if CoT will be like the old game and avoid quest hubs (I hope) then there's even less use for them.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

does this mean that you'll not fall in the daily and weekly missions system ? :)
*begging for mercy*

I'm also not a fan of any underhanded technique that subtly compels you to play on a daily basis. A game should be interesting enough on it's own merits to do that anyways. That, and I inherently dislike anything with a time limit. To be fair(ish), a weekly timer isn't terrible.

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I agree that Weekly or Daily

I agree that Weekly or Daily content quickly becomes a matter of 'The Same Damned Thing' over and over, for a pointless reward. It's Sad when giant monster encounters become a timed Murder-Fest where max-level characters roam the globe on a constant round of predictable encounters. Set those encounters as a Daily Event and the giant monster gets about three seconds to breathe and look dangerous, before vanishing under an enormous dogpile of exploding animations.

Hopefully, our Devs have better plans.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

If you're saying you don't like daily/weekly content, I'm with you on that.

i'm not found of the idea of being obliged to come IG to not miss something ^^ I feel like an hostage :/


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Agreed. Whereas I really don

Agreed. Whereas I really don't mind a "kill 10" or "FedEx" here and there, I seriously dislike "Dailies." Actually, come to think of it, I hate 'em. For all the reasons listed by others already. Horrible game mechanic. Almost as bad as Lockout.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I agree that Weekly or Daily content quickly becomes a matter of 'The Same Damned Thing' over and over, for a pointless reward. It's Sad when giant monster encounters become a timed Murder-Fest where max-level characters roam the globe on a constant round of predictable encounters. Set those encounters as a Daily Event and the giant monster gets about three seconds to breathe and look dangerous, before vanishing under an enormous dogpile of exploding animations.

Hopefully, our Devs have better plans.

Be Well!
Fireheart

It'd be great if a giant monster appearing did something to announce it's presence. Like the skys go red in the zone then having music start up for it. All I imagine is the Godzilla theme.

Just think of that, skys go red then all you hear is "Bwaaam bwah bwah bwah bwah bwaaaah" as a giant monster rises out of the depths or whatever.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Yeah, those 'Fed-Ex' missions

Yeah, those 'Fed-Ex' missions aren't bad when they actually contribute to the story. Even the 'Defeat a bunch of X' missions aren't so bad if there are Reasons for doing so.

I could see an NPC saying, "I need a bunch of x-salvage. I ordered some, but the shipment was hijacked by Y-gang. I'll give you the Maguffin if you'll go beat up Y-gangers until you collect z-number of x-salvage."

Maybe, as you're performing this public service, you could come across a clue that leads to the warehouse where all of the hijacked shipments are being stored and you can lead the authorities to a big bust? The 'crappy little missions' aren't so bad, if they're part of a bigger story, right?

Be Well!
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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

It'd be great if a giant monster appearing did something to announce it's presence. Like the skys go red in the zone then having music start up for it. All I imagine is the Godzilla theme.
Just think of that, skys go red then all you hear is "Bwaaam bwah bwah bwah bwah bwaaaah" as a giant monster rises out of the depths or whatever.

Look at that : http://titanscity.com/les-monuments-uniques-batiments-principaux-reperes-map-city-of-titans/
the firestation will have a system like you talked about :)


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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Agreed. Whereas I really don't mind a "kill 10" or "FedEx" here and there, I seriously dislike "Dailies." Actually, come to think of it, I hate 'em. For all the reasons listed by others already. Horrible game mechanic. Almost as bad as Lockout.

I despise dailies as well. I can't tell you how many guilds I've joined in which running dailies became basically the sum total of the experience.

On the other hand, one does have to ask what would otherwise be accomplished if dailies didn't exist.

Because from a ROI point of view, daily missions really maximize the (player-hour)/(developer-hour) ratio. For a small studio like MWM with only a handful of developers, they're going to have to use every trick in the book not to fall behind their player base's consumption of content. Creating daily missions is one way to help keep the player base occupied and increase that ratio. As a result, I would be very very surprised if CoT didn't have dailies for PvP, PvE, raids, dungeons and guilds.

But just because I understand why they would need to offer dailies doesn't mean I can't join you in despising them.

Edit:
Age of Conan and a few others I've played actually do have something similar, which encourages daily play but isn't actually a daily. That is daily achievements. So as you go about doing the things you do, you get rewards for accomplishing achievements. One such achievement is to defeat 20 opponents of at least your own level. It resets every day. So you can get the reward every day but it isn't actually a daily mission. This is a subtle difference but an important one in my book. Because the player never feels obligated to play so they can accomplish their dailies, but they do feel incentive to continue playing once they have logged in. And I think that difference is an important one.


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I like the way that GW2

I like the way that GW2 handled "daily quests" (disclaimer, I haven't played it in a good while, things may have changed).

Instead of having a bunch of quests that you could complete each one once per 24hrs, instead GW2 had a semi-randomized set of activities each day for you to participate in.

Typically there were about 5 activities (separate pve and pvp sets, so you were never forced into a type of gameplay you didn't like), and completing ANY 3 of them got you a reward (beyond the rewards already associated with those activities).

You'd have (PvE) options like:

Harvest X amount of < material > in < region >.
Complete < jumping puzzle >.
Complete < world boss event >.
View a Vista in < region >.
Complete < dungeon >.

These would change every day at server reset, so though there was a daily "grind" it was never the same thing day in and day out.

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Right, but with the various

Right, but with the various iterations of GW2, you are only offered 4 options to choose your 3 from. Except for when the Holiday Events are live, when you get 3-4 more choices. And, when you've played them all, then even 'randomized', it just repeats itself.

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https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daily#Today.27s_achievements

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

I feel like an hostage :/

Well said!

Project_Hero wrote:

It'd be great if a giant monster appearing did something to announce it's presence. Like the skys go red in the zone then having music start up for it. All I imagine is the Godzilla theme.

Just think of that, skys go red then all you hear is "Bwaaam bwah bwah bwah bwah bwaaaah" as a giant monster rises out of the depths or whatever.

I remember the old game doing something like that for certain events. When the skies went kinda greenish and people cleared the streets, I knew to look to the sky for the Rikti ships.

Huckleberry wrote:

Because from a ROI point of view, daily missions really maximize the (player-hour)/(developer-hour) ratio. For a small studio like MWM with only a handful of developers, they're going to have to use every trick in the book not to fall behind their player base's consumption of content. Creating daily missions is one way to help keep the player base occupied and increase that ratio. As a result, I would be very very surprised if CoT didn't have dailies for PvP, PvE, raids, dungeons and guilds.

You do have a point here, but I would suggest/hope that CoT could avoid this in the same way the old game did for the most part by encouraging alting. I think the lack of focus on endgame gear and enthusiastic support for alts helped a lot to make this mostly a non-issue in the old game. It sounds like CoT will even improve upon that.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'd be fine with daily

I'd be fine with daily rewards like the Conan example. Just first time you do whatever in a day you gain some bonus. This would actually encourage me to level some of my characters instead of RPing all day e'ry day.

I'd be like, "Well, I might as well go out to do a mission which will give me the defeat 20 bonus and the mission complete bonus." At least then my characters will slowly gain levels °w°

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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I mean, in a way street

I mean, in a way street sweeping could have a daily challenge implemented.

Personally I like them as automatically tracked objectives generally consisting of things you'd already do if you were playing. Harvesting, Crafting, Beating X Longbow, etc. GW2 did it well though they also implemented PvP and WvW objectives in it so in case you weren't keen on harvesting you could just go punch someone in the face a few times.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Hopefully if daily missions

Hopefully if daily missions are in they won't be like Dungeon Defenders 2's. Which are always clear x type of maps. Usually giving you the maps you dislike the most...

What I mean is if we have daily missions don't have them be like "complete x missions in y zone." I hate feeling like I'm restricted, also if there's a zone I don't like I like to not have to mission there.

I guess the TLDR of it is make them with as little specifity as possible. Clear x missions, defeat x badguys, etc.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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We know with near certainty

We know with near certainty that there will be newspaper missions, or the equivalent in today's newspaperless world. As these missions are procedurally generated, there is a very good ROI built into them. If the game included additional incentive to encourage the playerbase to do more of these missions, would that be well received? For instance, if an award was provided to the player character upon successfully completing x number of newspaper missions in a day; and that resets every day. Is this becoming too close to the much maligned dalies we speak about or not?


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

We know with near certainty that there will be newspaper missions, or the equivalent in today's newspaperless world. As these missions are procedurally generated, there is a very good ROI built into them. If the game included additional incentive to encourage the playerbase to do more of these missions, would that be well received? For instance, if an award was provided to the player character upon successfully completing x number of newspaper missions in a day; and that resets every day. Is this becoming too close to the much maligned dalies we speak about or not?

Our idea for this is our post launch system for “crafting” a Plot - Schemed and Investigations. We could include a metric for our Challenged and Achievements which has a daily reset for completing them. Earning the Achivement wouldn’t directly result in an immediate tangible reward but could go toward earning rewards a player desires.

Definitely something I’d like to consider.


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My personal issue with

My personal issue with 'dailies' is that they become perceived as something that must be done daily or you fall behind. I find myself thinking 'I have to get my dailies done before I can progress the plot'. It gets worse for me when you have multiple characters that all have to do the dailies, so much so that I find myself losing more and more time to the dailies until I am just cycling through characters.
This may have more to do with the rewards you tend to find in most MMO's dailies, which tend to be designed in such a way as to be the only viable way to earn those rewards. It has been a long time since I played STO but IIRC the dailies offered rewards that were a separate type of currency used to get the more impressive things in the game. Red would know better than me, I think she still plays that MMO. Basically the optimal way to get those rewards was with dailies and they even capped how much you could get in a day just to make it more urgent to complete them with each character. For me it turns fun into a chore.
If CoT does do dailies then I hope they don't use them in such a manipulative way.

I like the idea of using CoT's version of radio/newspaper missions as an incentive to play each day, but I think it could be done without the need to make them 'dailies'.
As was said, the radio/newspaper quests were procedurally generated which makes them infinitely repeatable with at least some difference for each iteration (dialogue, maps, enemies, ect). This makes these quests perfect for quick or casual gameplay. If you only have a few minutes to play you can log in and pound one of these out. If you don't want to start the next major plot in the game you can do a few of these for a break. If you just don't care about the story then these are an excellent substitute for all those dialogue heavy quests and special objective missions that you have to go through. They give me a reason to log in without making me feel like I have to.
If they are designed to be infinitely repeatable in a day, instead of being a 'daily', then by necessity the rewards can't be something unbalancing. It would be a 'want to complete' instead of 'must complete' incentive. The fact that progress could carry on through multiple days means even if you miss a day you don't really feel like you have lost out.

Furthermore, I think the reward for completing a set number (say 5-10) of these should be a special quest instead of bonus xp, currency, items or powers. This is similar to how in CoH you could do 5 radio/newspaper quests to get a 'stop/complete a bank heist' quest. except in this case the special quest would have more variation. You could have a bank heist, rescue the princess (hostage rescue), super brawl (just you and your team vs some big bad, maybe an arch enemy, in a destructable environment), stop the disaster (unique uses for your powers to stop flooding, fire, ect), investigations/mysteries (a puzzle you need to solve) or whatever else the devs can come up with. They can also add new ones as the game develops after release so that you have a massive library of special quests. If these were skipable or chosen from a selection then it would never be forced upon you to do a special quest you did not enjoy. It would also be a great place for devs to small test how much players enjoy new mechanics before designing larger content that use this mechanic like trials.

I don't know if this would be enough incentive for a majority of players or not but it would be for me and it wouldn't make me feel like I need to complete my chores before I can enjoy myself like dailies usually do in games.

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Now I want these missions to

Now I want these missions to secretly be "Defeat up to 100 enemies to find clue" with each one adding another 1% to the enemy having the chance the clue :)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Our idea for this is our post launch system for “crafting” a Plot - Scheme[s] and Investigations.

I just noticed that you use the two words schemes and investigations, and as I understand it, that is a nod to the proactive or reactionary sides of things, traditionally but not always reserved for the villians and heroes of lore respectively. I suppose a scheme would be something you patch together to obtain an item, assault a location or take out a rival, whereas an investigation is something a character would put together to stop the same from happening. I like it.

Tannim222 wrote:

We could include a metric for our Challenge[s] and Achievements which has a daily reset for completing them. Earning the Achi[e]vement wouldn’t directly result in an immediate tangible reward but could go toward earning rewards a player desires.

Definitely something I’d like to consider.

While I am neutral to this idea; from a systems point of view, I think this would be to your advantage as the achievement hunters would eat it up. I think a more short-term reward would be beneficial as well. Something tangible that would keep even the non-achievement hunters in the game "for just one more mission."

Lets not also forget the reputation system. So if we perform these missions on behalf of a faction, you could even have a sort of currency set up for these kinds of things. For only a few missions worth, a character can get a small buff or something. Or players could hoard their reputation points and purchase something grander after months of effort. This has the downside of making farming for reputation into a grind and then the game systems would have to be designed around the very real occurance of obsessive reputation grinders who would fast-track to the highest reputations and possibly skew the economy. Putting daily caps on that would be one way to manage it. All things to consider, I suppose.


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Ah, Oglaf. Sometimes NSFW,

Ah, Oglaf. Sometimes NSFW, but always entertaining.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Our idea for this is our post launch system for “crafting” a Plot - Schemed and Investigations. We could include a metric for our Challenged and Achievements which has a daily reset for completing them. Earning the Achivement wouldn’t directly result in an immediate tangible reward but could go toward earning rewards a player desires.

Definitely something I’d like to consider.

But with this sytem, if i understand it correctly, benefits will be more for daily players than casuals players aren't they ?
I mean, daily missions are usually aimed for "hard core gamers", the ones who don't have high level contents to do. They are daily to occupied the gamers. But, what about the casuals ones ? They will have a lack of time to have the same benefits as the daily players.
I know that the more you play, the more you gain is pretty usual and "absolute" but... is that not something you do not wanted to have ? make differences between the players ?
(maybe i didn't understand well Tannim, but those "craft" could let you choose which achiement you could upgrade/complete ?)


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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Our idea for this is our post launch system for “crafting” a Plot - Schemed and Investigations. We could include a metric for our Challenged and Achievements which has a daily reset for completing them. Earning the Achivement wouldn’t directly result in an immediate tangible reward but could go toward earning rewards a player desires.

Definitely something I’d like to consider.

But with this sytem, if i understand it correctly, benefits will be more for daily players than casuals players aren't they ?
I mean, daily missions are usually aimed for "hard core gamers", the ones who don't have high level contents to do. They are daily to occupied the gamers. But, what about the casuals ones ? They will have a lack of time to have the same benefits as the daily players.
I know that the more you play, the more you gain is pretty usual and "absolute" but... is that not something you do not wanted to have ? make differences between the players ?
(maybe i didn't understand well Tannim, but those "craft" could let you choose which achiement you could upgrade/complete ?)

No, the “crafting” part is piecing clues together, kind of like a puzzle, or more like a directed version of mad libs. You don’t get to choose the reward type.

Anyone who completes the S&I content will get their appropriate completion reward. The daily aspect I’d like to consider would be part of our Challenged and Achievements system.

This way it isn’t a necessity or enforced behavior, but encouraged. It diesn’t directly result in tangible rewards but helps toward earning them.

Casual players will always potentially fall behind more hard core players who put in more hours of play. But this wouldn’t penalize a causal payer in any manner more than any other mission content that is played over the course of time throughout a day.


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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

My personal issue with 'dailies' is that they become perceived as something that must be done daily or you fall behind. I find myself thinking 'I have to get my dailies done before I can progress the plot'. It gets worse for me when you have multiple characters that all have to do the dailies, so much so that I find myself losing more and more time to the dailies until I am just cycling through characters.

Aye, well said. That's why I thought TitansCity's using the word 'hostage' was so appropriate.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

No, the “crafting” part is piecing clues together, kind of like a puzzle, or more like a directed version of mad libs. You don’t get to choose the reward type.

I like this way of seeing things :)

Tannim222 wrote:

Anyone who completes the S&I content will get their appropriate completion reward. The daily aspect I’d like to consider would be part of our Challenged and Achievements system.

This way it isn’t a necessity or enforced behavior, but encouraged. It diesn’t directly result in tangible rewards but helps toward earning them.

You pointed out what i meant. Being a necessity instead of being encouraged :)
Will you make a news to explain those S&I system ?
Moreover, a news on the C&A and S&I systems could be great so as we could have something clear to understand :)
There are so much informations for this game that we could be lost ! :p

Tannim222 wrote:

Casual players will always potentially fall behind more hard core players who put in more hours of play. But this wouldn’t penalize a causal payer in any manner more than any other mission content that is played over the course of time throughout a day.

Fairly right ^^ Of course, casuals will always gain less than hardcores, that's obvious and normal to me. You reassure me when you say that casuals will not be penalized by the system (even by any system ^^).

Thanks for your answers Tannim222, as always :)


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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

My personal issue with 'dailies' is that they become perceived as something that must be done daily or you fall behind. I find myself thinking 'I have to get my dailies done before I can progress the plot'. It gets worse for me when you have multiple characters that all have to do the dailies, so much so that I find myself losing more and more time to the dailies until I am just cycling through characters.

Aye, well said. That's why I thought TitansCity's using the word 'hostage' was so appropriate.

It's a bit more severe a term than I would use, but I agree it's appropriate. Most games design their dailies to leverage human weakness and it is not a practice I am fond of.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

It's a bit more severe a term than I would use, but I agree it's appropriate. Most games design their dailies to leverage human weakness and it is not a practice I am fond of.

I must admit that was to caricature my purpose :)


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We may do an uodate on

We may do an uodate on Challenges and Achievements. That is up to PR.

We won’t be doing one on the S&I system for quite a while as it is a post-launch system.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We may do an uodate on Challenges and Achievements. That is up to PR.

We won’t be doing one on the S&I system for quite a while as it is a post-launch system.

Ok ! thanks tannim ^^


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