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If you can't beat'em, join'em...

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Lothic
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If you can't beat'em, join'em...

Well for the last year or so we've been living in strange times as far as the Star Trek franchise is concerned.

For those unaware there was a new official Star Trek TV series that started named Discovery. Also roughly at the same time we got a completely separate new show called "The Orville" which could best be described as a "re-imagination" of Star Trek the Next Generation created by life-long Star Trek fan Seth MacFarlane.

Everyone generally expected the new "official" Star Trek show would likely be at the very least "good" while the new show by MacFarlane would just turn out to be a fluffy inconsequential sci-fi comedy. Sadly (or amazingly depending on your point of view) almost the exact opposite happened. It turned out the "official" Star Trek show was shockingly unwatchable and worthy of little else but contempt while the show that was supposed to be the "dumb/silly" one turned out to be remarkably well written and completely loyal to the Star Trek roots it was based on. Bottomline the "serious" show was stupid and the "silly" show was exceptional.

So faced with the embarrassment that their "real" Star Trek show was unexpectedly sucky it turns out the folks at CBS are pulling a semi-desperate "we can do that too" maneuver by releasing a new show called "Star Trek: Lower Decks" which is going to be an animated "sci-fi comedy" based on Star Trek. This ironically seems geared to go up directly against Seth MacFarlane's show, whose creator even now is primarily still known for his funny animated TV shows.

There is pretty much NO WAY this "Star Trek: Lower Decks" show wasn't inspired at least in part by the sad attempt to do something vaguely identical to what MacFarlane's doing with his show The Orville, even right down to focusing in on "one of the least important ships in the fleet" motif. It's probably even going to rip off much better "identically concepted" shows like "Other Space" and "Hyperdrive" not to mention "Red Dwarf".

To be absolutely fair this Lower Decks show does have one of the Rick and Morty writers involved (Mike McMahan) so it might actually be a decent show despite everything else. But still the idea that they had to come up with their own "animated sci-fi comedy" as a direct counter to The Orville is pretty sad for CBS all things considered. ;)

P.S. Carrying the irony a bit further it turns out "Lower Decks" was the name of an old Star Trek TNG episode. It was the one that focused in on a group of "unknown" junior officers in the classic "day in the life of people we don't usually see" style. The TNG episode was at least interesting IIRC, I guess we'll see what happens when they try to make a funny animated series out of that.

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McGarnackle
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"Everyone?" Who is everyone

"Everyone?" Who is everyone in this scenario? I suspect it's you and maybe a few people you know? Discovery has been widely accepted as great (critics on rottentomatoes.com are overwhelmingly positive in their reviews of each and every episode of the first season.)

I am not slamming the Orville, you were right on the money on that one. The Orville is certainly truer to Star Trek's roots of exploring the universe and interacting with new species than Discovery. While Discovery is not perfect (by any stretch), it's mostly just very different from previous Star Trek installments. Clearly it's not your cup of tea but saying "everyone" considers it "unwatchable" hardly applies when it's just not true.

Cheers!

Lothic
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McGarnackle wrote:
McGarnackle wrote:

"Everyone?" Who is everyone in this scenario? I suspect it's you and maybe a few people you know? Discovery has been widely accepted as great (critics on rottentomatoes.com are overwhelmingly positive in their reviews of each and every episode of the first season.)

I am not slamming the Orville, you were right on the money on that one. The Orville is certainly truer to Star Trek's roots of exploring the universe and interacting with new species than Discovery. While Discovery is not perfect (by any stretch), it's mostly just very different from previous Star Trek installments. Clearly it's not your cup of tea but saying "everyone" considers it "unwatchable" hardly applies when it's just not true.

Cheers!

Yes but saying "everyone hates Discovery" greatly reinforces my position that it's a sucky show... At least I'm honest about it.

All joking aside it's not really just "me and a few people I know". Discovery has had more negative crap thrown against it online than probably every other Star Trek show combined despite the blind critics who don't know any better. Discovery is the kind of show that makes Voyager look good by comparison. ;)

Anyway because there's a guy from Rick and Morty involved I'll likely give Lower Decks a try. If CBS can no longer make a serious Star Trek show maybe they can make a funny spoof series work.

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It's definitely divisive. I

It's definitely divisive. I like the show precisely because it's taken a different path from it's predecessors but I do understand the dislike some people have for it as it's tone and themes are very different from its siblings. Perhaps you'll like the new Captain Picard-focused show when that comes out.

Lothic
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McGarnackle wrote:
McGarnackle wrote:

It's definitely divisive. I like the show precisely because it's taken a different path from it's predecessors but I do understand the dislike some people have for it as it's tone and themes are very different from its siblings. Perhaps you'll like the new Captain Picard-focused show when that comes out.

Like Lower Decks I at least plan to give the post-TNG Picard show a "try". But given what CBS did with Discovery I'm certainly not assuming it's going to be good until proven otherwise.

P.S. I just checked the Rotten Tomatoes page for Discovery and it only had an "Average Audience Score" of 56%. For a Star Trek series that absolutely sucks. Even Star Trek Enterprise (the show that's generally been considered to be the "worst" Star Trek series up until now) has a rating of 66%. Just saying...

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McGarnackle
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Indeed, which would probably

Indeed, which would probably indicate Star Trek fans' dislike compared to the actually quality of the show. Fans wanted one thing and something else was delivered while critics have generally been very complimentary (with the lowest RT score for an episode being 75%, which is quite good). We're probably both aware how loud Star Trek fans can be when they don't like changes made to the franchise. I'll take it for what it is, a decent sci-fi show but I don't really consider it as Star Trek because it is quite different. It's more like a "What-if?" for me.

Lothic
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McGarnackle wrote:
McGarnackle wrote:

Indeed, which would probably indicate Star Trek fans' dislike compared to the actually quality of the show. Fans wanted one thing and something else was delivered while critics have generally been very complimentary (with the lowest RT score for an episode being 75%, which is quite good). We're probably both aware how loud Star Trek fans can be when they don't like changes made to the franchise. I'll take it for what it is, a decent sci-fi show but I don't really consider it as Star Trek because it is quite different. It's more like a "What-if?" for me.

As a Star Trek fan I've watched every movie and nearly every episode of every series except probably a few dozen Voyagers and the last half of Discovery. Frankly I'm amazed I managed the first 6 or 7 of those but they finally lost me when Rainn Wilson managed to screw up Harry Mudd.

So I really don't buy the "I must hate it because Discovery did something different" argument because I was good with EVERY OTHER change of EVERY OTHER series until now. I even tolerated the silliness of JJ Trek better than this. Can't you just accept that a single series can be uniquely horrible without it being the "viewers" (i.e. my) problem? I can.

I just thank the Progenitors that whatever CBS does now they can't retroactively ruin the hundreds of movies and episodes that came before them...

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Maybe I didn't make the

Maybe I didn't make the distinction clear enough. Is it a good Star Trek show? No, not based on the franchise history because it's gone too far afield from what Star Trek is supposed to be. But is it a good show? Yes and the majority of critics (and 56% of the audience) agree with that statement (at least according to RT.) My initial issue was you applying "everyone" to the Hate Discovery Camp when that's not true. Even your point about 56% liking the show (so 44% not liking it) is hardly "everyone" granted that is not a good RT audience score.

Anyway, have a good day!

Lothic
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McGarnackle wrote:
McGarnackle wrote:

Maybe I didn't make the distinction clear enough. Is it a good Star Trek show? No, not based on the franchise history because it's gone too far afield from what Star Trek is supposed to be. But is it a good show? Yes and the majority of critics (and 56% of the audience) agree with that statement (at least according to RT.) My initial issue was you applying "everyone" to the Hate Discovery Camp when that's not true. Even your point about 56% liking the show (so 44% not liking it) is hardly "everyone" granted that is not a good RT audience score.

Anyway, have a good day!

And I thought I made it perfectly clear that when I used the word "everyone" I was being overtly hyperbolic on purpose as a sort of joke. Obviously using an absolute like "everyone" can't possibly be realistic related to something like this - you're never going to get 100% of anybody to agree on anything ever.

That said an audience rating of 56% is completely horrible for a show like Discovery. Plenty of shows get cancelled with better general stats than that. At least we can agree that at best Discovery is a relatively generic sci-fi space show whose actual connections to any Star Trek that came before it is dubious at best. I'll certainly grant that it has great CGI, but practically -any- show made in 2017-18 has at least passable CGI so that's like giving it credit for something it ought to be doing as a bare minimum.

Anyway my main thrust of this thread wasn't to trash Discovery per se (I've done that enough in other threads already) but to talk about how CBS's only counter to The Orville seems to be in making an animated comedy show that Seth MacFarlane himself might have wanted to be involved with and I found that circular bit of irony amusing. ;)

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I'll sign up for that hate

I'll sign up for that hate camp if you supply snacks and recreational activities. I got my hiking boots all ready to go.

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It's not much of a hike to

It's not much of a hike to the STD hate camp. Bunny slippers will get you there easily. But I had a bizarre thought about Lower Decks being animated. What if they took clips from Star Trek the Animated Series and gave it a Sealab 2021 treatment? I might actually watch that. But after Orville.Hopefully they won't botch the title of the pilot like they did with STD. (Binary star systems are pretty common, so "Battle at the Binary Star" is about as useful as "Brawl at the corner of Walk/Don't Walk.")

Lothic
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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

It's not much of a hike to the STD hate camp. Bunny slippers will get you there easily.

I would have hoped it was never going to be that easy to hate a Star Trek series... first time for everything I guess.

Impulse King wrote:

But I had a bizarre thought about Lower Decks being animated. What if they took clips from Star Trek the Animated Series and gave it a Sealab 2021 treatment? I might actually watch that.

Giving Star Trek the Animated Series the "Sealab 2021" treatment might be funny if done well. I'm just not sure there's enough there to make more that a few hours worth of interesting material.

The other problem with doing that for Lower Decks is that they've specifically made the point this show will be about people "on an insignificant ship" so it pretty much couldn't have anything to do with Kirk and the Enterprise.

Impulse King wrote:

But after Orville.Hopefully they won't botch the title of the pilot like they did with STD. (Binary star systems are pretty common, so "Battle at the Binary Star" is about as useful as "Brawl at the corner of Walk/Don't Walk.")

I'd agree that a space show with the title "Battle at the Binary Stars" is about as original as calling a movie about Pickett's Charge something like "A Battle in an Field". But I would think worrying about fumbling another episode title would be the least of their worries at this point.

Again it's good to see that one of the Rick and Morty writers is attached to this. If they decide to make Lower Decks a sort of semi-ripoff of Rick and Morty (at least in style at any rate) then it might be enough to keep me vaguely interested.

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I didn't want to hate a Star

I didn't want to hate a Star Trek series either, but it's also pretty easy to ignore it the way most Star Wars fans ignore the Christmas Special. While I was watching the pilot a story about Babylon 5 creator John Micheal Stracznski (JMS) came to my mind. JMS put his dues in on many shows among them was V the series. Now this show only lasted 1 season despite following 2 incredibly popular mini series. JMS basically said they made the mistake of ASSUMING sci fi fans would just watch their show and were always concerned about attracting other audiences and demographics. "Oh just throw in some dogfights and a wonder kid and you've got the sci fi fans" was their line of thinking. They didn't care enough to know that sci fi had rules and the audience they assumed didn't show. STD had that same feel that jarred you out of suspension of disbelief and managed to keep doing it with the speed and subtlety of a maniacally barking chihuahua.

Lothic
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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

I didn't want to hate a Star Trek series either, but it's also pretty easy to ignore it the way most Star Wars fans ignore the Christmas Special. While I was watching the pilot a story about Babylon 5 creator John Micheal Stracznski (JMS) came to my mind. JMS put his dues in on many shows among them was V the series. Now this show only lasted 1 season despite following 2 incredibly popular mini series. JMS basically said they made the mistake of ASSUMING sci fi fans would just watch their show and were always concerned about attracting other audiences and demographics. "Oh just throw in some dogfights and a wonder kid and you've got the sci fi fans" was their line of thinking. They didn't care enough to know that sci fi had rules and the audience they assumed didn't show. STD had that same feel that jarred you out of suspension of disbelief and managed to keep doing it with the speed and subtlety of a maniacally barking chihuahua.

JMS also had the dubious honor of having his core idea for "a space station where all the races could come together to fight a common foe" idea stolen from him by the Star Trek folks when he offered it to them in the late 80s only for it to be turned around and made into Deep Space 9 a few years later. Ever wonder why both Babylon 5 and DS9 had a relatively similar premise? Now you know if you didn't already. ;)

I'll stick to my original analogy (that I made in another thread) that Star Trek Discovery is the kind of Star Trek you'd get when you let an over-zealous 13 year old fan-fic writer have a Star Trek show after he/she has seen maybe half of one of the JJ Trek movies for "inspiration". It's frankly embarrassing on multiple levels.

Anyway I'll hold out some hope for this Lower Decks show and the upcoming Picard spin-off. Not -much- hope mind you, but some at least.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012