I don't mean Oculus VR, though that would be lovely!
I mean certain game things like ragdoll physics was in CoH.
In the super travel powers thread, I had an idea for supergroup vehicles that traveled at high speed, with someone driving, and you could walk around and look out the windows, maybe a little console that let you see what the pilot saw while in your seat.
Key points:
1. It is an actual vehicle moving through the world, which others can see moving, and you can see people on the ground and they you through the window.
2. Think a motorcycle in many games. Now make it a big plane/jet/rocket/flying carpet-with-bar. No Star Trek Online starship, which is technically a tiny instance.
Other things: Super bases with windows and doors to the real world where you can look out at players running around.
Even better, given all the doors on buildings, let people pick an exclusive one, and maybe people can see in through the glass. Many ways to optimize this.
Key point: Again, feels like it's in the real world...because it is!
Don't worry about implementation difficulties or efficiency. Assume a secret Einstein, who is a much better programmer than you, works on the project and can make it happen.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
So an SG leader can choose bikes and ride in front of a pack of other Bikers... Other bikers go on autopilot?
SG leaders is kinda playing Snake on the roads with everyones bike following him/her? ;D
I don't think there's any technical reason it can't be done. Star Wars Galaxies had multi-person vehicles which you could drive a whole team around in almost fifteen years ago.
The biggest obstacle is probably having bigger fish to fry. Making the game work first, for example.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for anything which can make the world more interactive and immersive and welcome anything the devs can do toward that end.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
I could definitely get behind the idea of a SG controlled vehicle. Like Wonder Woman's invisible jet or something.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
I can see this being the kind of thing the SG has to do a mission arc to unlock and then purchase. There could be upgrades to purchase (more seats, faster travel etc). All kinds of possibilities.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
How bout objects in a mission that you can take but are to big to carry. Lets see, I just beat up this filthy do-gooder in his base and got the codes I needed for my Master Plan to work, but, wait a sec. Is that a ISX-9530 Super-Duper computer there? I'll need that too! Damn, its too big to fit in my pocket, good thing I have The Villainous Ice Cream Truck I stole that can cart it back to the base for me!
Phew! That was hard work loading it in the Van.....hey, this chair is comfy.....MUAHAHAHA it comes with me too! It will fit, next to that mailbox I took for the back-up Master Plan!
They also serve, who only stand and wait.
Let's just say that I preferred World of Warcraft's "taxi services" (ie. gryphons and bats) to City of Heroes' trams. The former kept the world "large" while the latter made the world "small" and reduced the sightseeing.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
What if the trams had actually been rooms you moved around/sat in, and you could see the city moving by outside?
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
This would actually be pretty cool. As "little rooms/instances" that would circle around the city they could provide locations for fun RP and you could even have missions based on them like stopping a bunch of hooligans from robbing passengers or trying to vandalize the tram itself.
Of course even if CoT manages something like this it probably ought to offer a "no sightseeing" option (basically the same way CoH worked) to allow people who just want to get around the city quickly to do so. The game could still offer "tram missions" to anyone on the special occasions that such missions came up.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
But But.. me wants epic Battles on a moving train. :(
And.. watch the Scenery too... on the MOON, or Underwater! ;D
[img]http://i.imgur.com/9MRMlib.jpg[/img]
yes. Yes! Most definitely yes.
Every little thing that adds to the quality of the game is important, like in WoW when you look at your map your character pulls out a scroll with the map on it. I'm not saying you need to do that, but the point is the same - small features, things that seem superfluous in the larger scheme of things, add a lot to the game and how people interact with it.
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
Yes but the sightseeing tour gets old real quick. The whole point of transportation abilities is to make the world smaller. If I want to see everything on the way I'll just walk.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
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But...
...this might be good. I'm sure the novelty would wear off at some point and you'd rather just get to where you're going. Perhaps let the tram be an actual moving thing that you could simply walk into and ride, but on the tram or in the station, there would be an option to immediately travel to any connected tram station.
Then again...
...it could be like riding a hippogryph in WoW where it's just a means of moving across the landscape. It might still be very efficient if it were fast enough. Without riding the tram, you'd have to hoof it with whatever travel powers you have. It could also provide a cash sink if there were a small cost to hitching a ride.
I don't know. I'm kinda on the fence about this one, but I'm leaning more towards the latter.
But I think its more believable to have a Moving mission map be a Cargo Ship though. And its somewhat faster to Design one for the 3D team. :)
ex:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/IGj08Bt.png[/img]
I soooo want to see a tram go by with an epic fire fight happening in it.
With great power, comes the need for great heat sinks
Spider-man and Doc Ock on the roof :P?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
[Bored Citizen] Huh, Spider-man and Doctor Squid are fighting again.
[Unenthused Citizen] Must be Wednesday. ...and isn't it "Doctor Octopus?"
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Don't know if it'd be "more believable" than the tram idea but I'd agree from a programming point of view that having big cargo ships randomly floating around in the port zones serving basically as "moving mission doors" should be relatively easy to create. They could do that with almost any sized ship like for example have a mission to sneak aboard the villain's "private yacht" that constantly moves around the city's waterways in an attempt to stay hidden and so on.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
More seriously - and I'm not talking with any authority here so much as just thinking out loud - there's also a valid question as to whether it is desirable to have "no scenery" trips that make it an instant-teleport. Travel powers that allow instant transit might be more appropriate. Or having the instant-transit utility be a separate one, perhaps which costs more to use (in-game currency, not stars, of course). Could even be a perk for being in good with a faction, or an element you can install in your base. "Launch tubes" and "secret pneumatic tube entrances" that whisk you to and from your base to various parts of the city.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Let's review the history of CoH for a possible answer to this. When CoH first launched it had several disconnected tram lines that (while technically realistic) forced you to travel across big chunks of several zones just to get to the other tram stations that would take you to all corners of the city. That was eventually changed so that you could basically jump on any tram and it would "automatically" take you to any other tram station without transfers, so to speak.
Clearly the general desire was for the tram system to be as quick as possible even if it lacked a bit of "realism". I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see a version of the trams that allowed for "sightseeing" around the zones and if CoT can offer that it would be cool. All I'm saying (as I said before) is that even if sightseeing trams are possible I would still favor having the OPTION to also travel quickly if desired. I suspect it would be possible to design the system to allow for both methods of travel to exist side-by-side. The default would be the simple automagic CoH style of tram service while the sightseeing version would be available for those who wanted to ride the instanced (albeit slower) moving tram in a more "realistic" fashion.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm thinking now about how "immersive" experiencing the tram ride would be. Wouldn't it feel kind of ghetto and depressing? You know the devs will have four year olds with speech balloons saying things like, "Mommy, why does THAT super-hero have to ride the train like us?"
With great power, comes the need for great heat sinks
I'm of the opinion that a tramway that can be bypassed is preferable.
What I mean is that if you want to get from place to place quickly without any significant travel power usage (whether because you can't use travel powers yet, maybe because you don't want to right now) there should be things like buses and and trams that take you from place to place - in theory, you could even have interactions with NPCs down in the subway, stop a mugging in progress, or whatever. it'd be a good source of Random Encounters as a way to make things interesting, and it'd be especially considerable for the "people with powers" angle of super heroes, which is what I tend to do most often with my character designs. Mostly because I'd rather be fighting people in the comfort of my jeans than a skintight outfit.
But this would only work particularly well if there was a way to get past this. The most obvious ideas are travel powers that simply work faster than the tram - the most obvious of these is teleportation. Super speed might also be applicable here. That way if people want to bypass the tramway system of travel, it's easy enough to do so. There's the speculation on a SG vehicle as well, and possibly setting up teleporters to various locations in a SG base.
I've always loved the idea of a hero sometimes needing to maintain relatively mundane modes of transportation to get from place to place in a reasonable time frame, such as a guy with super strength and toughness, but no real travel powers, and thus he needs to take his crappy Volkswagon Beetle from place to place. There's also this hilarious image of an imperious looking villain who, by circumstance, was forced into riding the train today. Another one would be someone who can't afford a motorcycle to get around, and thus owns a motor scooter instead.
"Nobody can save you now!"
*Vespa crashes through the skylight*
"Not so fast, Villain!"
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
I don't see any version of a tram system (whether it works like the magical insta-travel CoH version or a possible realistic "sightseeing" version) being superior to the fastest travel powers. In a superhero world it's always going to be "sexier" to fly or superspeed around town with superpowers. That's pretty much a given, but that doesn't make the tram itself bad/wrong.
We will always need a city-wide tram system to serve as the "lowest common denominator" form of travel that anyone can use if 1) they have no travel powers or 2) want to RP a "civilian" secret identity. Basically the game needs some default method to quickly travel around that doesn't depend on choice of super powers or a well-equipped SG infrastructure. The only question here is expanding the tram's ability (in CoT) to serve host to possible new types of missions or RP hot-spots.
I'd only see a tram as being "ghetto/depressing" if you've chosen to RP it that way. Sure you might not see the cool A-list supers using it too much, but that's just the way things are.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
A shared vehicle could have a set of auto-fly destinations. To use the WoW griffin model, just the destination is fixed. No matter where you are, call your vehicle, get in, and select a destination and sit back.
Or take the controls yourself and fly around.
I do agree general super travel powers are mostly used, and I wouldn't wanna see vehicle stuff like Champions (where functionally your body turns into the vehicle) and the world is filled with shooting vehicles more than superheroes.
No, this is just a replacement concept for (or in addition to) tram/griffen travel for long distances. You would also still have tp portals here and there for dimension and time travel and maybe ultralong travel.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
I'm not discounting the possibility of instant- or near-instant travel. I just am wondering if it should be "free" or "accessible without investment."
It sounds like a convenience item worth having as a base element, faction perk, travel power convenience, or the like.
I would expect everybody to eventually get some form of it, and that it should be easy enough to get, but it should feel like something you've "earned" somehow, rather than "why bother getting a travel power?" or "why doesn't everybody do it this way?"
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
More immersion: No height limit. Fly 286,000 miles to the moon, a real object up there, if you want. Begin suffocating at 6 miles up.
For that matter, use procedural generation to generate planets and regions, reroll regions till one is cool, tweak a bit or place custom designed areas.
Much faster than old-school level design for outdoors. And much larger and faster and fewer people.
There's your moon.
Isn't there a game doing that right now, with a whole galaxy of millions of such planets?
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
The CoH trams did offer "instant travel to any zone for free" as a default for everyone. The only obvious "limitation" to it was that you had to travel to (and end up at) tram stations that were fixed in set places in the zones. This is one reason why travel-based superpowers will always be in some sense superior to trams because you can choose your exact start and ending points.
I think if you want to have some form of instant travel that would allow you to start and/or end up at any exact spot you wanted then yes I could see that involving some kind of "premium" ability/service that you would have to somehow pay extra for.
See the difference?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think of the tram system on a more funtional level. What is it used for within the game - getting player characters from one place to another. For most MMOs such travel systems decrease the amount of travel time required for the player, or make it possible to reach an other wise unreachable destination by any other player based actions (walking, running, swimming). Now our game already handles the first part of this for the character - its called travel powers - where players can access increased movement in significant amounts - like super speed running over 100 mph. Many other games limit such increased movement based on requirements like its only provided from certain other player characters with limits to time it is available, exhaustible resources (items with charges, potions, and so forth). Since this isn't a limited resource, freely accessible to all player characters - it is even planned to be provided as part of the character build starting at level 1 without affecting the build from other power picks.
At some point, the player's own capability of travel exceeds the needs for a game-world-mode of travel unless: its convenience exceeds the use of a travel power. This means it either gets the player someplace a travel power can't, or not without some hinderence, and / or it gets the player there faster than a travel power can.
The actual discussion of tram usage requiring actual travel time over instaneous travel came up at one point in our tech chats. Considering the functional purpose of the tram is to mostly get players around a city setting through which they can also freely travel through with player bound modes of travel that can be of significant speeds - it seems that either the trams would need to be like bullet trains zipping through the city in a blur, or appear to travel at typical train / monorail speeds and fluff the time and provide instant transport to the desired location.
As to whether or not to charge in-game currency for tram usage - requiring a charge for a convenience makes sense, that part I understand. When looking at the convenience fee use in other games the result is a significant decrease in time sometimes in the magnitude of hours of travel time saved for players to avoid travelling without the convenience - not to mention either the difficulty of avoiding hassles like difficult encounters and such (which can be a factor in time it takes to travel). Again we go back to the game we're making where the travel time throughout the city can end up being measured by minutes, not hours. I'm uncertain as to whether a fee for use is a necessity at that point. That is, if tram stations are their own thing and separate from any other conveniences like a rescue center, banking nodes, and so forth. If all that is combined into one locale at each tram station suddenly the convenience compounded by other conveniences being interconnected - this is what makes designing a full fledged base desirable - I can have my item storage, healing stations, and world transport all at one location - that's something worth paying an upkeep for. Trams on their own cutting down travel time in the order of minutes saved at a time just doesn't seem appropriate (to me) by comparison.
Faction perks I think is something that may not go over as well either. This entails some things which may be impacted by our alignment design which can influence the way the world works for players not to mention in the case of pvp - there are bound to be a lot of different thoughts on how to handle all of that. Its more up to Comp / Lore to determine if there is a faction in charge of running / guarding the tram locations . There is simply too much up in the air in this regard to properly discuss at this time.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Fortunately or not, I am not really on the design team for this, so I'm just throwing out ideas and discussing them.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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I think it would be a mistake to assume that because every character in CoT will have travel superpowers that there'll be little justification for a default/free travel system like CoH's trams. Here are are least two reasons why such travel powers cannot be solely relied upon to serve these basic travel needs:
1) There were CoH players out there who actually liked to RP that they had no travel powers. Yes, I understand that CoT will be giving everyone a free travel power at level 1. But the folks who don't want to RP having travel superpowers simply won't use them regardless. They'll primarily rely on things like the public trams to get around.
2) There will be travel powers that don't really move people fast enough to make something like trams completely obsolete. Case in point the CoH Coyote Travel and Ninja Run powers were technically "travel powers" but they only allowed for movement that was slightly faster than base Sprint speed. If characters only had powers such as these for travel powers in CoT they would be relatively handicapped without a supplemental tram system to support those power choices.
Bottomline it's clear that CoT still really does need some kind of universal travel system (like trams) that anyone can use regardless of other travel power considerations. There are simply far too many practical and RP reasons why having a game without such a travel network wouldn't make much sense.
Again I already mentioned the inherent tradeoff that makes "instant free travel via CoH-styled tram" justifiable: fixed locations for tram stations. Players are always going to have to get to and leave the various stations to get to the exact spots they want to get to so that built-in inconvenience makes up for the general advantage trams provide.
Now there's still could be a debate over whether or not having a relatively slow "sightseeing" styled tram in CoT is worthwhile (despite the mission/RP opportunities it would provide). But even if it isn't I still think something like the CoH styled instant tram travel network is a fundamental necessity for CoT.
As far as implementation goes the trams could move around the tracks at "reasonably" slow speeds for appearance sake from the outside but users of the CoH-styled system can still just "insta-travel" from point to point at the tram stations. There's absolutely no reason why the speed of the moving trams have to be "synced up" to the speed the characters using the CoH version of the tram system. If you also want to implement the "sightseeing" styled tram travel the trams can once again move around the tracks at "reasonably" slow speeds for observers outside the trams but the characters inside the trams would exist in their own personal "mini-instances" inside the tram cars. For passengers inside the tram they can be shown whatever "moving scenery" the Devs want to show to "simulate" movement throughout the city. Again there's no need to sync up what observers inside or outside a given tram see relative to each other.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Reason for a "Sightseeing" version of public transportation to exist at all: [b]CONTACTS[/b].
What if there's a Contact who can only be interacted with ON the public transit system? Need to talk to "Spike" about something? Ride the train. Need to chat up "Gus" the driver? Ride the bus. Need to talk to "Jerry" for some reason? Ride the ferry across the bay.
In City of Heroes, all the Contacts had their feet nailed to the ground at all times. They stood in one spot and never left it (except to phase out and not be seen again). The Contacts never WENT anywhere.
City of Titans can change that. We could put interacting NPCs onto the "sightseeing" public transit system(s).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I agree completely. There are many cool mission/RP opportunities that could arise from having versions of "public transit" that are handled like mini-instances.
But once again even if this kind of thing happens in CoT it needs to co-exist with a more fundamental quick travel system along the lines of what CoH provided so that we have the choice for either "fast instant" travel or "slow sightseeing" travel as desired.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Ok, just to throw a silly idea out there, what if taxis were mobile access points to be transported and "dropped off" at certain key points in the game, OR even to talk with a cabbie contact. May not even be possible or practical, but it would be unique and possibly fun--or a terrible idea.
If literal "mobile access points" aren't possible, there could be certain corners where you can "catch a cab" and there could just be an animation of a cab pulling up before you can access it.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Aren't there already plenty of places to meet contacts without making our transportation a lot less useful?
Heck they could even hang out AT the train station, they don't need to be On the train.
and wasn't the clues system supposed to make contacts less necessary anyway?
Seriously, if what you're talking about get's implemented, I'm not sure I'll ever bother to take a train.
More trouble than it's worth.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I wasn't arguing against having a public transit system only speaking towards its implementations from a wholistic view. It isn't that players may choose a no travel power, but because travel can and will exist as a availability for each character the questions become: why is a transit system needed and how is it implemented.
If the transit system is purely a means to reducing travel time - we need to determine how quickly a character can traverse the city, how dangerous it would be to do so, and how long it would take before it isn't so dangerous.
The argument referencing the old game's travel speeds doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Compared to many other MMOs even sprint could get a character to necessary locations far quicker, it is only within the context of the d game that sprint was slow compared to other travel powers. Also consider that prior to the tram lines being merged there were a lkkited number of zones only accessible by tram. Further more at the time by only allowing use of the (yellow?) line into Talos it was possible for a level 5 character with only sprint to get from Atlas Plaza to Portal Corps Courtyard (including use of the ferry) in less than 15 minutes and without defeat - a run my sg did for fun. We even fave out prizes to the top 3 runners.
If the trams were more than transit vehicles then i could see possibly requiring travel time but it would need to be for a whole lot lo more than to meet a few contacts. He work to implement a tram system wouldn't be justified for typical travel and a few contacts. Especially since if a contact on the ream were a thing, it could be done by creating a tram interior map as a selection at the tram door at the station and when done the player can choose an exit location. I would be adverse to contacts constantly moving about forcing players to wait around for them, especially when they probably won't require physically being present to speak with at every instance of contact which means the at the most it will be either at initial contact or sometime after the got to know you (hey i think we need to meet now). Unique contacts mot withstanding where they may only be available at certain day times at particular locations or not available as a contact until unlocked these would be exceptions rather than the rule.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
We can have a RedLynne and a BlueLine. One shows the Scenic route that you PAY 15 Stars for. Other is free and just transports you there right away?
Guess which one you have to pay for? ;)
I like it. Pop out of the hospital, hail a cab, map comes up where you point to your destination (think zone entry to "The Hollows") pop-through the entrance and your teammate tele's you back to the mission entrance.
Cab sounds like a reasonable premium service worth paying for.
With great power, comes the need for great heat sinks
I just feel bad for some of the RP'er... cause some would most likely want the Cab or Limo (or whatever) transportation to have a different Skin or Color tint. But CoT isnt looking to allow that. :<
Get on the SG Color tinted BUS? ;)
I am unsure that charging STARS for one-off transport is a good idea. c_c That sounds like something few would use, and many would be irritated by.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
My point was that it's probably not valid to assume that ALL players are going to be able to travel around faster/better on their own than what a default tram system would provide. Such a public transit system should serve as your "lowest common denominator" baseline when it comes to assumptions about how easy it would be for any player to get anywhere in the game. It's not merely a system for "reducing" travel time - it should be your reference for ALL travel around the city. Think of it as the universal "travel power" anyone can use regardless of any other means available. After that any excess speed players figure out via using superpowers or other methods would just be icing on the cake.
Having "contacts on a tram" would be interesting but it would be only a small part of the benefit of allowing for trams to be "moving instances" that players could enter. Again the far cooler opportunities this would provide would be for either having actual missions occur on the tram (i.e. A bunch of hooligans jump onboard and you have to actually fight them on the tram to protect passengers) or to allow for a different kind of social space for people to RP things like situations involving secret identities.
I fully understand that whether we're talking about a simplistic CoH instant travel tram or something far more immersive like the idea for having trams be mobile action instances that either option represents some kind of development effort on the part of the Devs. Obviously the Devs could decide that having trams be more complicated than CoH's version of them would not be justified time/effort wise. But I still firmly believe that having at least a baseline equivalent of CoH's instant tram system is a fundamental necessity.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yes having trams that are "moving instances" for missions/RP would potentially make them slower if you simply wanted to use them for travelling from A to B. This is why I have always said in this thread that even if something like this was implemented there should always be the alternative co-existing option to use a CoH styled instant travel tram instead.
Having "moving instances" should be an extra alternative to standard travel, not a complete replacement for it. If you don't want to enjoy the extra mission/RP opportunities it could provide you'd never have to use it.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I am thinking of the tram as the universal travel [i]for the entire game[/i]. I am not dismissing the fact that there will be players who choose no travel powers. It is as much a fallacy to implement a slower form of travel for the entire game than what can possibly be attained by what is most likely to be a healthy portion of the player base considering it is possible for everyone to have some form of travel. In this case the tram system being applicable to everyone means that it should be faster than what a typical player can travel on their own.
This will either result in extremely fast, like a bullet train or otherwise instant relocation to the selected station.
Again if you wish to compare traveling in the old game, sprint was capable of getting players around the majority of the city in what amounted to measurements in minutes compared to other games hours. It didn't actually take a long time to get to and from most missions to the next mission. It only took long if you compared the sprint user to the travel power user within the context of the game itself. Quite simply trams actually simplified travel for everyone in that respect - it provided an equal benefit to all so far as relocating a player from place to place and if our tram system is to provide an equal benefit to all, it certainly must account for travel powers.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I agree that CoT should have a default baseline version of a travel system that works near-instantaneously for everyone without regard to whether players have their own super powered travel alternatives or not just as CoH did with its tram system. I've been saying this all along.
But I also think there could be some value in an alternative/co-exiting travel system that is instance-based like the "sightseeing tram" idea that's being discussed here. That would provide the various new mission/RP opportunities as previous discussed.
I just can't help but feel you think this is an either-or situation: like either we can only have a exact copy of CoH's tram system OR we can only have some kind of fancy (albeit slower) instance-based system. I'm saying we could have both, or at the very least start with one and then add the other as time goes on.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
My bad.. You're right. I just couldn't remember what the game currency was called. :)
[quote=Lothic
I agree that CoT should have a default baseline version of a travel system that works near-instantaneously for everyone without regard to whether players have their own super powered travel alternatives or not just as CoH did with its tram system. I've been saying this all along.
But I also think there could be some value in an alternative/co-exiting travel system that is instance-based like the "sightseeing tram" idea that's being discussed here. That would provide the various new mission/RP opportunities as previous discussed.
I just can't help but feel you think this is an either-or situation: like either we can only have a exact copy of CoH's tram system OR we can only have some kind of fancy (albeit slower) instance-based system. I'm saying we could have both, or at the very least start with one and then add the other as time goes on.[/quote]
Ok, I'm not disagreeing with you on this. I'm only speaking toward the practical implementation and purpose of design. If the purpose is to move players from one place to another that is globally applicable, then it must account for all forms of travel, otherwise it isn't globally applicable. That is should be the baseline of implementation.
To take that same system and then purposefully slow it down as a requirement for rp purposes or if mayhaps one to a possible few contact locations as an actual instance? This would require somehow syncing up the instance with the time table it takes for the tram to travel from station to station - which I'm uncertain is a fixed rate or not, if its not, either way the timer that allows exit from the tram (for the slow travel time instance to work) needs to reset.
The problem with making the interrior of a tram an instance is it wouldn't work as a sight seeing tour of the city, Well there is a way to do this as an instance but the city wouldn't be live. We could record the progress of what the city looks like from the exterior of the tram as it travels from station to station, take that recording and make it a wall texture on a wall just outside the tram windows. Both sides would need to be synchronized of course. This would also require multiple instances be made for each portion of the track between each station.
This way, there is the global transport which would be (really fast or instant) from station to station, or there would be an option for the 'scenic route' to take. Realize that nothing here is a definite either way, but I'll bring it up again when the time comes to discuss.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I somehow missed that, but if that's all you want I've got no reason to complain.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Please review what I said back in post Number 30 of this thread. I think the crux of this discussion is that you may be over thinking (or at least over complicating) the issue of how you would "sync" up the fast/slow movement of the tram to account for both travel systems.
There is absolutely NO NEED to strictly synchronize anything between what players outside the trams looking in versus what players inside looking out have to see of each other. Once you remove the need to keep the relative points of view synced then it would actually be much easier to "simulate" these points of view (via things like your moving wall texture idea) for the tram riders. Players outside of trams don't need to be able to "see into" any given tram - that view could always be static to make things easier. Relative movement of the trams don't really matter either because they don't really have to match the physical positions on the tracks relative to what players would see inside versus outside. Basically much of it could be done with "special effects trickery" as opposed to actual physics.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not assuming any of this would be trivial by any means. I just think there is a path forward with this that doesn't involve anywhere near the amount of complex logistics/physics I think you think it would take to have these things co-exist.
At any rate I appreciate your consideration on this. These ideas/suggestions could easily represent ongoing improvements that could be added to the game long after launch when there's more time.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about outside viewers looking into the tram at all. I agree, going with windowed mirrors or at the least opaque if windowed proves to be problematic.
I'm talking about the interrior of the tram would probably have windows on both sides of the tram. Each recording of the view from outside the tram would need to be synchronized with each other so that both sides match up properly. If its going to be done, it might as well be done right is all I'm saying. If the player is traveling from station A to B, the view from the tram should match up with the locations they are crossing, and it should take up relatively the same amount of time the tram is actually taking to travel to get from A to B since the recording would actually be of the tram's movement. It could be sped up sure, if it doesn't result in anything looking too wierd and it all works, but at the very least, it'll match up with the view.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
This doesn't sound like an either/or situation to me, either, Lothic. The idea is to make it Useful first, then go beyond and add features that make it fun.
I'd be in favor of the parallel system that's been proposed. I see it like this:
You go to the Tram Station and run up to the carriage entrance where you get the "interact" cursor.
Clicking on it brings up a choice "Express" or "Tour"
"Express" gives you a quick little cut scene (static or animated) and you appear at your destination.
"Tour" gives you (and anyone 'grouped' with you) an instanced ride on the Tram where you can see out the windows of the elevated car.
The "Express" would be similar to CoH, basically instantaneous travel to any other Tram station.
The "Tour" option puts you in an instance where you can see the city going by below you. Its speed should be such that, (allowing that it will probably be moving in straighter/more efficient paths than ground travel) it gets to the destination slightly faster than Base Travel speed, but somewhat slower than Max (enhanced) Travel speeds. But because it's basically the same instance animation of the city going by, you wouldn't see all the detailed happenings at ground level, anyway. So there is still incentive to explore street level.
Harkening to RedLynne's idea of possibly meeting a contact, or even foiling a modern-day train robbery, would just give you a third option when that mission is cued up as your primary. This convention is familiar from CoH and a few other games.
I could also see either system costing some pittance of in-game currency OR buying a "Tourist Pass" for a few Stars which lets you ride for free. Those costs would require some economic balancing not worth going into here, of course.
Sure it's "sexier" to fly over the city or race super-sonic through the streets, but there are times and characters for which that isnt appropriate or could be dis-advantageous. Not to mention the added utility of being able to go refill snacks while you're travelling! :D
Having the views for the tram riders "match up properly" to any/all parts of the town they may be travelling through is a sort of Holy Grail solution that I of course would love to see. I'm simply saying there's quite likely a "poor man's" version of this that, while not anyway near as fancy or elegant as what you're talking about would still be leaps and bounds beyond what CoH provided.
Sure it's great to shoot for the fully loaded Cadillac version of this but I think most people would be happy with the baby-step Yugo version at least for starters. I'm sure you'd agree that's a compromise worth considering just to get it into the game at all.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yes this is more or less the kind of thing I'm talking about. Thanks for explaining it in a straightforward, summarized way.
The Devil's in the details of course, but I think something along these lines could start on a small scale and develop over time.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Ah, okay. You can't remember because we haven't settled on one, yet.
I'm pushing for "Favor," because that can be read as "favor of the masses" or "favors owed by such-and-such" or "in favor with the Mob" or what-have-you. But it's so far down the line that nobody's making a decision on it just yet.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
After reading this discussion and giving it some more thought, I'm inclined to agree with this. If the tram is meant to be a form of travel for everyone, then it must provide faster travel than players could achieve on their own else it's not serving its purpose. Travel is a very practical concern in an MMO, and even if an actual moving vehicle would be more immersive, it's no substitute for instant travel between tram stations if players could get to where they're going faster without it.
In hindsight, I don't think it was fair to compare trams to hippogryphs because players in CoX could move very quickly across the landscape relative to WoW. Shuttling characters across town in a tram car in real-time would be impractical for travel in CoT because characters will already be able to move at blazing speeds on their own. If the tram is meant for travel, then it needs to be faster, and instant travel is hard to beat.
And of course, as Lothic and others have stated, the existence of an instant tram isn't mutually exclusive with the existence of a scenic tram. The former can exist for travel while the latter can exist for fun. Each serves a distinct purpose.
I just think of Saints Row 4 where I *personally* prefer driving from place to place even though it is *faster* for me to run/jump around.
But then again, I was similar in WoW. I would sometimes fly from Ironforge to Stormwind by autopilot. Other times I Would take the tram (faster, but NOT instant) or do it myself occasionally (takes much longer than hippogryph).
But the thing is, the "faster" the route was, the more inconvenient it *could* be for me. I might have to travel a bit to get where I actually needed (ie questing in a zone, I might fly to the general area, and then go on foot the rest of the way).
But that was a trade off between "doing it yourself" and "leting the computer do it". Letting it go on autopilot might not always get you *exactly* where you want to go.... you would have to go back on yourself a little bit, or what not.
Hell, in CoX I could sometimes go from Hamidon to Atlas park before some people even *hit* Talos doing the same route. Loading times were a factor back then, and the fewer loading screens people had to endure the better it was for "travelling". However, CoX had firm zone definitions so it was *impossible* to go from one area to another without hitting hard "load" screens.
So you might as well go "bugger it" to an extent, and put that time spent loading as the "travel time" between zones. The tram only had one loading screen, when you could quite easily have hit 3 or 4 travelling form one place to another.
Now if CoX had seamless travelling between zones, then I could have actually seen them make the travelling between zones more scenic, instead of the instatravel version.
CoX sometimes went like this for me....
BREAKNECK SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEED
*loading*
BREAKNECK SPEEEEEEED
Jump
Jump
Jump
BREAKNECK SPEEEEEEEEEEEEED
*loading*
BREAKNECK SPEEEEED
*fly*
*loading*
I could sometime spend more time *loading* than actually spend in the zone travelling.
It seems to me that a 'scenic' tram instance need not be wholly separated from the outside 'reality' of the game world. It would be a bubble of presence moving through the greater world and only separated by not allowing those within its sphere to interact directly with the outside, and vice-versa. The primary purpose of the tram is to traverse large places, like zones, relatively quickly. Even your 100mph Super Speeder may have trouble in traffic, but the tram is above all that... or is it Underground?
An 'encounter' instance of the tram could be put on a sort of endless-loop, not associated with the outside 'reality' of the city, and not 'synchronized' until it comes to the end of the ride and drops the players at their destination.
Be Well!
Fireheart
One thing that just sprung to mind here, and is VERY appropriate for "immersion"... or at least to make sense.
If there is "insta travel" between zones, don't make it something like a train line/helicopter.... those take time to get from A to B. Use a teleporter/magical doohicky/spacebridge style thing.
Those work "fast enough" and don't need explaining in terms of "how they work", because they just do. As soon as you say bullet train or something that we have in general, the more jarring it is.
Side note: You can force loading screens in WoW via certain methods of travelling on the same continent, but that is when you are jumping large distances, where the game has to load a totally new set of textures for the area. It cannot just stream them as you travel across the zone(s)....
Look I like being able to immerse myself into the game. A lot. I mean like Really Really a LOT!
But I immerse myself into the parts where I'm actually playing.
Why in the world would anyone want to immerse themselves in the boring process of getting to the adventure
which in some cases is already too long.
Remember how we used to put hover on auto run and go to the bathroom or refill our drink to get across Grendel's Gulch?
Remember how if you didn't have hover the trip would probably involve a few restarts because you'd get killed along the way?
They solved that by moving some mission doors closer to the contacts and that was good
The only problem was that now there was no reason to go over there...
Ever.
(Explorer badges don't count they're nothing)
So all this talk about making the train a more immersive experience sounds like a giant investment in time and resources
that most of the players will never appreciate.
and quite a few will just be annoyed by.
Just give me a loading screen and I'll get immersed when the adventure starts.
And notice here that my main point is not just that I don't like the idea
My main point is the giant investment in time and resources
Time and resources that are limited and might be better spent on something that will add more to the game for far more players.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I recall an issue where Hawkeye and Mockingbird were taking the subway ( Hawkeye's aircycle had been blown up ) and ran into Captain America in his civvies. Or another issue where Cap and Rage took the subway and Rage pointed out to Cap how the people had shrunk away from him but were instantly relieved when Cap followed him in.
You're certainly correct that the resources required to build the tram system need to be compared with the amount of benefit it would give to the game. However, I think you are underestimating the amount of use that players could make of the 'scenic' version. (Given that everyone seems to agree that even if there is a scenic version, an instant/loading screen version should also exist, I'm guessing that it is specifically the resources put into the scenic version that you are objecting to)
Some people actually do enjoy the 'journey'. All the time? No. And that's what the 'express' version is for. I've played with people who would absolutely use the scenic route for RP purposes. Either RPing out developing the plan on the way to the mission ("Okay, Darkshot will come in through the skylight while Photon and Shellshock break through the front door. Wisp, you sneak around to the back and find the mayor's kidnapped niece." ) or in general, non-mission RP. The possibility of encounters on the tram would be another benefit (I expect that might take longer to implement than just a scenic trip though).
The scenic tram should, in my opinion, be considered in the same vein as developing something like Pocket D or one of the many other RP environments ( fast food places, bowling alleys, etc ) that have been discussed on other threads. If it would take significantly more resources than one of those, perhaps postpone it to a later point. If it's simpler to implement in parallel with the intra-tram or would take about as much effort as one of the other environments, then try to get it in earlier.
And no, Explorer badges are not nothing. You don't like collecting badges? Fine, don't. But don't proclaim that they are nothing as a great number of people actually do enjoy collecting them and it ill fits a supposed 'paladin' to go around denigrating what other people enjoy simply because you do not. A way to say it which would be less dismissive of what people other than yourself enjoy would be something like "The only problem was that now there was no reason to go over there unless you were a badge collector or just wanted to see what was there."
I'm sorry
All I really meant was that it was not worth the time and risk just for an explorer badge.
I collected a lot of them myself so I could get teleporters to a lot of different zones,
But the hollows was easily accessible from Atlas Park so I didn't need a teleporter to take me there
I wasn't worth the trouble TO ME.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Which is perfectly fine. Of course, once you're a high enough level to have a speedy travel power, getting those badges was suddenly much less troublesome.
You may not want to ever just ride the rails, but what about having an actual mission there? One big advantage of having the sight-seeing train would be a new and interesting map for missions.
You could be clearing out gang members that were harassing commuters. You could be having a clandestine meeting with an informant and get ambushed. You could be trying to make it to the control car to stop the speeding out of control train, or on a villainous note you are trying to get to the control car to cause a wreck. A re-skinned version of the map could very well be used for the ghost train mentioned in the lore updates.
Personally, one of my favorite over-the-top locations for a fight is on top of a speeding train. I don't know if that would be doable as well, but I can hope.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Honestly, just having the train be a place to acquire clues - whether meeting informants or searching for evidence or whatever - would make it worthwhile.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
A 2.5D side scrolling Mini Game? :p
What if it was just integrated in a way so you could just skip the sightseeing? Don't want to sightsee? Instant travel. Want to see the city? Take the scenic route. Also, hi. I'm new.
"I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was empty"
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
Hi, saw you popping up around different threads with good input.
WELCOME!!!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Thank you! Also regarding taking the scenic route would be nice if there were dynamic events happening outside you could observe, even giving you the option to cancel your trip and partake by jumping off.
"I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was empty"
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
Yep, pretty sure that everyone agrees the sightseeing train would be an option alongside instant travel.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
I'd rather think about it more like the FantastiCar...
...but I'm a Marvel geek. So forgive me
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
"Nobody can save you now!"
*Vespa crashes through the skylight*
"Not so fast, Villain!"[/quote]
FLCL, huh? LOL
Great idea!!! Especially the jumping off, or, how about catching up to and entering as well!! There are lots of spin-off things that can be done with the idea...
So, um, I've skipped over half the thread, so if this has already been beaten into the ground please forgive me.
One of the things I hated on the heroside was being in the middle of a story in Zone A, only to be sent to a mission door in Zone C, with a mid-story contact in Zone B, who then sent me off to talk to somebody (no mission, just info gathering) in Zone D, only to finally report back to my contact in Zone A and be giving an introduction to a new contact in Zone C! I very quickly learned to hate riding the train. When they consolidated the trains so that any station could be accessed from any other it was a great improvement, but even then it did not remove the necessity to hop-scotch through the city for no reason at all other than to waste time. CoV handled this much more nicely with the vast majority of story arcs being grouped together so that missions in one arc all took place on a single island.
Instant travel vs. sightseeing vs. individual travel:
To my way of thinking all three of these are absolutely necessary. Depending on what I am doing and why I am doing it, there will be times when I just want to jog/walk/slowly fly across the city and take in the sights. At other times I'll want to be instantly taken from point A to point B without a lot of bother or skipping around. Sitting in an open box that mimics a train car, glass capsule submarine, or spaceship would also be a fine way to travel from time to time. Charging ingame currency on a sliding scale from slowest to fastest is not an unreasonable thing to do, unless the player character has no choice but to take the most expensive form of travel. Depending on other currency requirements, this could become extremely inconvenient for the player resource management, thus eliminating any perceived value behind the design intent.
If I want to vacation on the moon that should cost me. If I'm being dispatched to the moon to investigate someone or something, then whoever is sending me had better plan on paying for the trip! (And if I happen to take a vacation there and do some sightseeing while pursuing my mission goals, well, that's just one of the benefits of being freelance!)
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My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
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Yeah, I thought the constant use of the train ruined the game. :/ When you see superheroes using the train in comics, it's generally for joke purposes.
I agree with all the above, but I'd like the see the same thing done with an extensive subway system.
"TRUST ME."
I think eventually the city ought to have all the same travel stuff that CoX had, that is, some sort of train,(subway or elevated), helicopters on roofs, some kind of temp-power or other that dials up a ride for you like the Arachnos Flyer etc. What else they could do in addition to that I don't know. Some sort of personal Batplane would be cool if you could actually fly it, that might require making all other powers greyed out and you just get a pop-up tray of flight controls, and/or the mouse and WASD keys. I could see having like a Supercycle that works similarly, where your powers etc are greyed out and you just have the controls to control it and maybe it's own built-in defenses.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Convenient travel was a strength of CoX. It got better through the history of the game.
But then I might not be able to fire my gun or energy blast from the motorcycle if they grey them out :p
To be fair, you probably shouldn't be allowed to type into ot look at chat while driving one of these things either. I mean if you want it to be as immersive as possible, I gotta believe a "no texting while driving" law would be in place. :)
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Like a no vigilante, no criminal activity laws in place? Or how people already avoid the whole no texting while driving laws? :)
I doubt too many people are texting from motorcycles. Or at least not more than once :P
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I was thinking cars at that time (which could still allow you to stick hand out window and fire :) ) but we're superheroes! We could do it!
I'm having fun imagining a comedy bit where Batman and Robin are on the way to the Penguin's hideout and Batman has to yell at Robin to stop updating his Facebook about it. Robin takes a selfie with Batman looking angry at him, then posts it to Instagram, etc etc
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
HA HA HA HA HA!
hehehehehehehehhehehehhe
giggle
grunt
OK I'm better now.
HA HA HA HA HA !
No seriously I'm fine.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Something similar seems to be done with superheroes (at least younger ones) doing such things...to which I can only think my own young hero would facepalm :p
Booster Gold?
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
If I had an in game NPC, he would be modeled after Booster Gold, but care allot more for the Ladies. [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/55297#comment-55297]DelightMan[/url]. ;D
Charmer Gold!
+10 points to Pengy! ;D
For him it makes sense. Wasn't he just in it for the fame anyways?
60% Fame,
30% Doing Good,
8% Chicks,
2% gold. ;D
He did eventually get better. But he never stopped loving the camera.
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