So a thing CoH got very much right when it came to PvP was abilities acting differently. Lemme explain.
In PvP Arenas, instances, etc.. Your abilities had different effects than in PvE. One of the best examples was Twilight Grasp. It was a damaging ability that healed you as well in PvE. IN PvP however, it also added a Heal over Time effect IIRC.
On top of this, many ATs got a boost to defense (pure DPS ones getting about 40%, tanks and MM getting 0%). Buffs had diminishing returns, healing gave you a resistance to healing (stacked to 80%) for 8 seconds, hit chance was lowered, etc.. The thing would be relatively easy to code for IMO and changes to powers in PvP mode would not effect changes to PvE mode, leaving everyone happy! :D
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Yep, that's the equivalent for having standardized gear in those games that use gear (plus it removes the barrier to entry in such games, which will hopefully be a non-issue in CoT). As you said, it would make balancing and tweaking PvE and PvP much simpler since there wouldn't be the additional headache of worrying about changes having unintended consequences in another style of game play.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
They came around to this after screwing up things that worked in the PvE game, and they left them screwed up. Completely avoidable mistakes.
This in part because they initially failed to see that the PvE game and the PvP game couldn't work by the same rules. Fundamentally, One vs. Many PvE encounters work very differently from One vs. One PvP encounters.
Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.
I have to respectfully disagree.
PvP's biggest drop in popularity was directly following the introduction of PvP and PvE acting wildly different. It essentially made it two separate games. This made it difficult for players to join PvP, as they would have to disregard everything they had already learned. If we want PvP to be newb-friendly, it's better to make it as similar as possible.
Number tweaking seems appropriate. A lot of other things you think -would- have to change don't. The difference between AoE and Single-target in CoH PvP was negligible. Nobody ever stood next to each other. So, even if a power is deemed imbalanced because of the large damage it can do to an area, in PvP it would balance itself, since nobody gathers in one spot.
The mechanics should be similar. If Twilight Grasp healed 1/4 of your HP off of a target and healed AoE, there's no reason it cannot do the same in PvP. Making it heal over time AND decay would so fundamentally change the strategy the character uses that it would make PvP more frustrating than entertaining.
We can't have people feeling weak in PvP zones. Nobody likes that. People want to move around the map fast, they want big damage numbers, they want big heal numbers, they want debuffs to actually work and they want buffs to actually work.
Some may argue Build up and Aim are so powerful in PvE they would be overpowered in PvP , allowing you to 3 shot characters. The difference was that in PvE, minions don't counterplay; they don't run away when they see you use all your buffs. People, in PvP, will.
Also, this is literally the first time in several years I have ever seen the argument that Issue 13, separating PvE and PvP, was a positive thing, and that it should be done again. It failed miserably. People felt underpowered, nobody knew what their character did anymore and it was impossible to slowly fade from PvE to PvP naturally. Let's learn from the mistakes of CoH PvP and try to emulate it's positive points, not mirror it.
EDIT: Changed noob --> newb as per http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newb
Elitist PvPers certainly exist, but I am not one of them. I've devoted countless hours organizing events and lectures for non-PvPers to get into PvP. The school was known as PvP Redux, and we had over 100 players who had never played PvP to participate in practices etc. Hopefully all that effort sums up my feelings about non-PvPers and their worth to PvP.
First thing you need to do if you want PvP to be other than a small group of L33T-speaking kids with a high twitch-rate? Stop calling non-PvPers noobs.
I had exactly three PvP experiences in CoX. In the first, my Brute went up against a Tanker in a brawl outside. I beat him by the barest margin after burning every Insp I had. We both retired, all 'GG HF', got more Insps, came back and he beat me the next time. It was a BLAST. The second time, same toon, I received a challenge and when I showed up the challenger's two Stalker friends jumped out and AS'd me to death. When I went to the Hosp one of them used Teleport to bring me OUT so they could rack up their kill count. I had to log the character and go back later when they were gone to get him out. Third time was similar to the second, only with a lot more jibes and taunting.
You don't need a lot of negative experiences to turn someone off of something...just one bad one. My first experience with Brussel Sprouts was bad and I hate them to this day. So...you want to build a good PvP community? Start with yourself. Police your language. Don't deride non-PvPers, even a little, and don't accept others doing it either. You see someone doing it, report them, send them a PM and let them know their attitude is ruining YOUR game.
You have to let PvE-ers know that there's a good reason to play PvP. THEN you make sure the system will work when they get there.
Otherwise you're making suggestions for a system that will never have enough players to make a difference.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Some of my best PvP experiences?
Eve Online.... infact, had a few too many in there to really list....
Worst? City of Heroes. For similar reasons to Comicsluvr...
I've seen this play out in every MMORPG I've played. Some segment of the PvP-enthusiast crowd seems to want to act and talk like they're part of a prison gang, and then can't understand why other paying customers don't want to come entertain them.
In one game I played one of the more popular topics of conversation among PvP'ers was how to get more than the persistent tiny fraction of the player-base involved. Answers always seemed to involve screwing up the game mechanics for everyone else. Honest introspection wasn't part of the agenda.
Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.
My PvP experience in CoX was similar to Harvester's, Gangrel's and comicsluvr's. A sufficiently large segment of the PvP population whose whole [i]raison d'être[/i] is to be as big of a jerk as they can be, gank and harass people, and generally be annoying.
There were a couple of fun PvP experiences, but they were all arena events with groups we'd arranged the fight with ahead of time, thus eliminating the jerk factor.
The OP's suggestion has been out the window for over six months. The team decided some time ago to balance the whole game around a unified standard, making PvP and PvE work by the same rules. They are building for this from the ground up so that it can work.
As for the jerk factor, it would seem some kind of policing is needed...
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Huh.. >_> now I feel silly for not knowing that.
As for the jerk factor, I can't really comment for everyone but I know that usually a restriction put on ganking and such doesn't turn away people who want to do it just for the lolz. However I will say that if anyone on redside (and blueside if I feel.. heroic.. *shudders*) is getting harassed by gankers then you can call me up anytime and I'll fly in to show those pathetic heroes what it feels like to get annihilated.
Mwahahahahahaha
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
As long as there's an "ignore" feature and no compulsion, nor progression requirement to ever enter an open PvP area the jerk problem is solved. Those parasites can only exist in contexts where you've no choice but to deal with them.
Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.
An SG devoted to PUNISHING PvP gankers...hehehe. Ganking wouldn't be so funny if eight heroes/villains swooped down to have a talk with you later.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Covered. No compulsion has been a priority from day one. Beyond that - they want non-PvPers to be able to play as if PvP doesn't exist, as much as possible. An earlier KS update talked about how our server configuration allows us to make use of instances in ways CoH couldn't, to isolate PvP from PvE
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
Not just an SG, but maybe a custom channel called "Ethics Committee".
Report a ganker or a group of them in the channel and whoever can respond flies in and gives them a taste of their own medicine..
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Allowing or even encouraging the offended to become offenders in order to punish other offenders usually does not end well. I say the best way to deal with gankers is to avoid engaging them at all, to the extent possible (e.g. leave world PvP and queue up for arena PvP).
As far as the OP goes, some change is going to be necessary when going from PvE to PvP, otherwise, to use an obvious example, people will either get locked down by CC (nobody likes to be stun locked) or controllers will have trouble exerting any kind of control ("control" wizard from NWN, anyone?).
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Ok so devils advocate here.. it's PVP not carebears.
If someone ganks you repeatedly, you are doing it wrong.
If you are upset by the language, you know where the door is.
If you are a solo PvE'er and you jump into the middle of a large group of mobs, there's a good chance they will kill you.
If you try and walk past them slowly, there is every chance they will aggro to you.
They don't tend to deride you publicly it's true but you can bet they're thinking it.
PvP isn't really that much different, PvE'ers who want to enjoy PvP need to group up and stick together and learn the mechanics the same way they did with PvE. If you have a toxic resistant tank ahead, think twice before running in on your toxic damage blaster.
People DID get banned from PvP for language - racism, hate speech etc but picking on you and taunting you in a PvP zone is pretty much what that zone is for.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
I done a few PVP in CoH. But never after I13. Why because of the game play differences. I couldn't adapt to the way powers change.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Unfortunately, a lot of people did use the door and pvp ended up being a side show with those that made sure people went running for the door wondered why dev didn't put more effort into PvP.
In COX the rules about language and behavior didn't say "except PvP zones." It said in COX. Thus the rules still are supposed to apply just as they did in PVE.
And of course there are ways to be competitive, and vicious in that competition without being a total d-wad to the opponent, contrary to popular belief of many PvPers. While no one is excepting total carebear, but I'm sure PvP does not or rather should not mean automatically that verbal abuse or harassment should be expected or be allowed.
Like Comicsluvr said "Start with yourself. Police your language. Don't deride non-PvPers, even a little, and don't accept others doing it either. You see someone doing it, report them, send them a PM and let them know their attitude is ruining YOUR game".
Acting a plum fool Neanderthal with no concept of respect for other people do not mean carebear or nor do it mean it makes one a PvPer. It makes them a plum fool Neanderthal and that type of behavior although common in PVP does not have to go hand in hand. Because when people start complaining about the pvp zones being empty or it sucks because no one pvps or the devs are not spending money or time on pvp zone because the folls ran everyone off, it's hard to get people to feel sympathy for that portion of the game when the Neanderthals finally got exactly what they wanted. The pvp game to themselves except they forgot to think about when the time comes when no one is left to gank. In COX, they usually resorted to the badge hunter passing through but since in CoT it looks like badgers wont have to touch PVP, who will they kill once they show everyone "the door"?
Then PvP can grow. Sometimes people leave not only PvP but the entire game. And while in COX players say "most friendly community." Some actually scoff at that. Not because of PVE mostly but because experiences in PVP.
Because in the end negative behavior do not only affect pvp. It affects the entire population of the game. More people that leave because the door that pvpers insist they take or else stand for their verbal abuse and harassment, it decreases the population for pve when they leave. Less population means less money. Less money means less development. Less development means less new players and some players leaving once they finish the content. That type of behavior is bad for business and each person they run off is $15 or more a month not including other accounts they may have lost, because a few cannot act like normal civilized human beings.
And pvp can occur without acting like complete jerks. I seen it.
It's not up to us to tell PvPers how to PvP.
They are not a seperate race of people, they're just a type of person. You can't tell a fool to stop being a fool just because you want to be sensible whilst you are in foolsville.
PvPers were some of the best people that CoX had, they were a subset just like marketeers were. Post i13 was a mess of the devs own making.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
I hope that you are correct, SE.
CoX was a burden.
I had to be aware of different builds, skills, enhancements, bonuses...let alone learn/experience actual PVP strategies and tactics.
Too much work! Work? Yes, work...in a *game*. I'll never be a proponent or supporter of anything like that.
If it feels like work, I'll skip it or will find a new game.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/26pBVBG.png[/img]
([i]Currently developing the Sapphire 7 Initiative[/i])
I agree this far. PvP is what it is and the people who dedicate themselves to it are who they are.
It will always be a fringe element in those MMORPG's which aren't built from the ground up to accommodate that game-style.
Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.
There also another aspect to PVP. Rpers PVPing because it's part of the story. A Villain fighting a Hero. Two Lovers having a spat. All that done via a PVP arena or Duel. If not in the game then in Forums or chat. What is the difference between a battle with words or a battle with dice or even a battle in a PVP friendly game. It's still a battle. So not only is there the PVPers there the PVPRPers.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
The difference is that some people get a little bit more braver with words through a computer than they could ever dream up uttering in real life. :p
Seriously though, I seen some interesting PVPRPer through chats before. There are some very skilled pvprpers chatters out there. Don't want to leave them out, as they add a bit of flavor to PVP, without the yard bird biggest baddest cussing "fear me or I'll insult ya" overcompensating nonsense.
Tried PVP in CoH seriously for about 2 weeks. I met a character named Kraft, and he showed me the evil grin ganking that PVP really is. You guys can say what you want but there was no honor in CoX PVP. It was a zone gank with cussing for the full 2 weeks i was in there. Then they changed Energy Transfer and Kraft quit and so did i. Shelved that character and never looked back. From what im reading here, im not seeing any reason to return. Flamers are going to flame. Gankers are gonna gank. No amount of "policing" is going to fix that. Just keep em away from the people who actually want to PLAY the game and we will all be happy.
Yeah, that sounds like a Jedi. Massacre a whole room full of people, then stand around apologizing for it. - Swtor NPC
That's the idea of having PVP it's own instant. You can PVP then when done switch to the PVE and relax. Powers be designed to work for PVP limits the need to change them when switching. Big reason I stopped PVPing in Coh. Remember at this point it's all just plans. Don't think they are even bothering with "policing" more of making sure no one is forced into PVP mode.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
A) i13 was total ass pvpwise. Sorry. Its just true. At a time when we were paying $15/mo to play, it caused hundreds of players to quit (me included), to get people already paying/playing to START pvping...which, of course, they didn't. Why? Well a) Care bears (no offense, I love u all) don't just turn into grizzlies. Just a fact. and b) spending 50 levels to learn how to play ur toon to have every power betray u and thus reducing u to nigh impotence vs these vills AIN'T FUN.
B) Major policing is a waste of time and resources, just keep ur filters on (I always did) perhaps add enhanced types of ignore and a /petition to get the GMs involved for the stuff that's really aggregious. Problem solved. This is not open world pvp, so if these measures wouldn't be good enough for someone, they should just stay the heck out of Dodge!
Yeah and no.
Unless the rules about profanity, harassment and etc. have an exception that states, "except in PVP zones, then they as players should be bound to the same rules. Why should PVP zone be a place to break all the rules when in a PVE zone would have gotten them banned a few times over? In the chat channel that is.
Just because someone wants to break the rules, those that rather abide by the rules laid out about player behavior should not be the ones that should be leaving. It should be the rule breakers.
If the rules say no heavy profanity or cursing at other players if it would have gotten that person reported and possible banned in PVE side, why should that effect be not in play on PVP side. Unless, again, in the rules it says, except pvp zones? Why would the person the target that is offended be the one that is supposed to or have to leave the PVP zone when if it happened in the PVE side they wouldn't be expected to leave?
Unless states in the rules otherwise, I don't PVP automatically means that people can simply forget the rules and act anyways they want and anyone that don't like it should leave the zone. That is why the problem wont get solved. Ignoring problems usually don't ever work. Either make it in the rules that states the normal player behavior rules that are required by player in PVE zones do not apply, then it will be fair game as it would then be within the rules. Or keep it as is where it says nothing that PVP zone is the exception and thus enforce the rules. If there isn't enough enforcement for PVP zones then the rules should written to reflect that the rules in the PVP zone do not apply enter at own risk. Then the statement of if they don't like that type of crazy behavior, then the person should leave or stay out. Because then, their money, just like other players, go into that development cost for that PVP zone. And thus have a right to be there within the rules stated just as much as that person that feels they must act like butt to everyone. Unless of course either people that dont partake in PVP get a discount or PVP becomes it's own pay for feature. The difference is that one is within the written rule agreement the one that is acting like a butt is not keeping to that agreement so in reality the person within the rules have more right to be there than the person who is not keeping up their end of the agreement of playing the game to not do that type of behavior.
I personally, think maybe since there may not be a way to police or they don't want to police the PVP zones, should simply put in their rule agreement that PVPers in those zones do not have to follow the normal rules. Then the person that was previously being a butt is just a normal player within the rules, then if people don't like that, then they can stay out of dodge. That way that the victim should leave is the old way of workplace violence used to be handled. Some is sexually harassed, they are supposed to leave even though it is stated in company policy that sexual harassment is not tolerated. In the end they realized that it solved nothing and it only gotten worse. They learned that ignoring a problem doesn't mean the problem isn't there. When they started to go after the offender, then the sexual harassment cases decreased and the problem is on it's way of being solved. Then people realized what was written had meaning. It isn't tolerated.
I never said use different rules. I said use player tools to enforce them if there's a problem. I played, from the day I booted coh up, with profanity filters on and probably saw one actual curse word in 6 years. If someone in pvp, or anywhere for that matter, got creative trying to express their profanity, and I was actually offended (rare ),they were /ignored. (I ignored WAY more people in AP than I ever did in RV btw) If I ever felt someone went over the line I would have petitioned them, simple as that, and If all this is still not enough there are plenty of ways they could enhance /ignore or /petition to clean things up . They could also have a popup when u enter to remind u that u have these tools available to u. I know its a game, but most of us are adults here, and don't need a babysitter to protect us once given the appropriate tools. I think also maybe at least some of these people are confusing their feelings of being pwnd by these OP vills and them talking smack with actual verbal abuse. Eh, it's a theory :)
P.S. When I was bangin pre i13 I never saw the level of venom attributed to us pvpers on this thread. It was mostly comical barbs hurled at each other in RV(Freedom server)
Ah never PVP on freedom actually much and the few times I was, And many cases I seen on Virtue server, were more than just simple talking smack after defeating a player. While I would like to assume most of them are adults, the actions say other wise. Yeah there is a big difference between talking smack and taking it too far. There were more f***ing people's mother talk by pvpers than I can count. That don't sound like adult behavior. Even talking smack doesn't mean it have to be laced with insults and profanity. Especially if we are adults. For example, for one it may be just funny ribbing but when the person reply that they don't find it funny, a mature adult will lay off. But usually instead of laying off, they keep going and pushing the line further. At that point it went beyond normal smack talk. And sometimes these crazy things said come from the person that is beat actually.
As I said just be cause the problem is ignored doesn't mean it will go away. If they are breaking the rules, they should not continue to be aloud to break the rules. While the ignore function is nice, and from what I thought it was mostly designed to ignore people mostly that was annoying that person but within the rules. Not a free pass "Oh I can cuss and harass because it's up to the victim to ignore. If they don't want to be cussed at or harassed, they suppose to ignore me" mindset. No, that should be reported and probably ignored and if that person continue breaking the rules something is supposed to be done or else, what is the point of having rules?
Maybe the rules should lay out the difference between smack talk and examples and stuff that cross the line along the average person taste. Because I think many have no idea the difference between small ribbing smack talk and pure insulting profanity laced smack talk. ANd uisually the target will let the person know if they don't get it or is insulted. That should be the first clue it been taken too far. Think thye let up? No, they keep going and going and going, and usually add in thier something about being insensitive and stuff...then get AS by a stalker and now pissed when the stalker insults them like they were doing the person and so on. That is how PVPers got their reputation as cursing angry pissed off people that whole goal is to grief and insult people. BEcause no one is taking care of those that cross the line and expect the victim or other players to basically close their eyes and pretend the problem doesn't exist. Like a kid who think thunder is going to go away because they hide under the covers.
Basically player tools should be the start in the mean time UNTIL the rule enforcement team can get around to it. Not in place of rule enforcement. If they cant or don't have the man power to enforce the rules, then get rid of the rules.
I have to say that I think this is a TERRIBLE idea. In Star Trek Online, PvE and PvP mechanics work the same. Unfortunately, STO is F2P, so items get added to the cash store. These items are great for PvE, and loads of fun. But in the context of PvP they are "broken" or become pay-to-win items. So the PvPers complain about new items destroying any semblance of strategy or [b]FUN[/b] in PvP, and get an item "nerfed". Then the PvEers complain about the PvPers, because now the item can't be used to utterly smash NPCs anymore, building an [u][i]artificial[/i][/u] divide between the two groups of players.
PvP and PvE can exist in harmony, but what works for making a super-powered player able to devastate dozens of NPCs won't always work against a player in the same way, as far as the fun factor is concerned. [b][u]I don't think there should necessarily be great swaths of mechanics changes to PvP, just that powers should be looked at on a [i]case-by-case[/i] basis for PvP tweaks.[/u][/b] At the very least, allow the individual powers to have modifications so that their stats can be reduced / increased against players only, while doing their base stat against NPCs. That's how STO solved at least one major issue - of course it didn't solve the fundamental issue that what was fun in PvE (utterly crushing dozens of NPCs) meant someone got the shaft in PvP because they didn't have the time / money to gain a particular powerful item.
Maybe things will be different in CoT, but I really think that a separation of powers needs to be reconsidered. You don't want two sections of your playerbase at each other's throats because of an artificial divide you put in.
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FEAR ME OR I WILL INSULT YOU!
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
The only insult I will deign to accept is that you think you are worthy of being feared ... by me ...
{{ commence beatdown }}
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I agree with this so much... Thanks for posting
"8 years.... What a ride"
One suggestion I would make to help flavor the PVP with showing opponents respect, and rewarding respect. A simple way to do this would be to make a PVP mission contact who grants decent mission rewards for simply being polite in pvp conflicts. Assuming there's a /duel feature, or a /challenge for an instant 1v1 battle down to 1 HP, one of the missions could simply be to use a Bow emote before, and after the duel. The mission would reward both players for being polite during their fight, but only if both players bowed, building habitual bowing, and thus, some form of respect. Missions with rewards that use keywords like "GG/Good game" and "Good fight/GF" after being defeated. Basically use aspects of PVE and RP to encourage polite behavior, and punish rude behavior.
An automatic system could also place bounties on players who regularly Cuss in PVP, or use derogatory terms, thus acting as a punishment for poor behavior, or other less-than-noteworthy actions. The nature of the game is then enforced from a method of mechanics rather than needing 24/7 dedicated GM policing. I would certainly love to see 24/7 GM support, on top of this, but that's a different issue entirely.
My "honor" mission idea won't exactly hold up with many v 1 combat instances, but it's a start. Maybe someone else can snowball off the idea and figure something out that would work even better.
Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.
I can think of something better. If something like cussing bothers you, use a profanity filter. If someone bothers you, ignore them. If you don't like the content you see in a chat channel--disable it. It was really that simple. I have yet to come across a game that has the functionality you're describing. Also a lot of pvpers love to talk trash. And they are not thin skinned about what people might say in return. The fact that some people might wander in and take offense--while refusing to use the tools I mentioned--is no justification for making the entire game this pc haven for people who can't be bothered to tune things out themselves.
Regarding having powers work differently in pvp versus pve, I agree with Sentry that you want as little change as possible, You don't want players to have to relearn the game in order to pvp. I also acknowledge that some pve powers are very OP when applied to a pvp context. Healing is probably the worst. Emps were designed to keep a whole party alive on a mission, which made them almost unkillable in pvp. One thing to consider though, is that if they start with goal oriented pvp (rather than deathmatch, which is all cox had) then the more pve-centered powers and roles (like tanking) would probably translate better without needing as much tweaking. Then there could be a more deathmatch style approach for people who were willing to learn and configure their characters for that context.
The biggest problem with CoH's PvP was the free for all...anything goes zones. It was a recipe for disaster. A player who wanted to check out PvP would not have a team to go with...they would just enter the zone, look around and more times than not be repeatedly beaten by players who knew PvP better. There was no easing them into it...it was trial by fire. Very few people like that. All it did was discourage most of those who were on the fence about PvP.
In my opinion if you want to encourage PvP or at the very least not discourage it then I suggest a beginners area that can ease a new PvP'r into it. There are a lot of ways to do this.
The Arena was was introduced in City of Heroes before the PvP zones were....
The arena was introduced to the game first but it was seldom the first introduction to pvp players had.
I am really not sure what your point was...can you elaborate?
They didn't need to go into any of the "Anything goes" zones to try out PvP. They could have used the arena, but yes, the PvP zones had their own feel of PvP compared to arena PvP.
One was not like the other, even though the basic "rules" were the same
I agree, they didn't NEED to go into the PvP zones. The problem is the zones were the quickest and easiest way to enter PvP. The arena required a player to find an opponent willing to duel or worse yet a team to match another team. The wait times to get into a random duel using the matchup system more often than not were prohibitive.
Couple this with the fact that there were missions that directed players to PvP zones (as an introduction to CoH PvP I don't remember any missions that directed a player to the arena but could be wrong).
I do also agree that the arena was not like the PvP zones but the fact remains that due to human nature and CoH's PvP community, the PvP in that game was not inviting to players who were on the fence about PvP. If CoT wants a vibrant PvP scene it will need to find a way to introduce players to it without throwing them into the deep end.
And for the record, my personal opinion of the PvP in a game like CoH (and I presume CoT) will never be successful or an actual draw for new PvP devoted players due to the fact that there is very little in the way of competitive skill in it. Animation/recharge times, tab targeting, spike damage and character build outweigh timing, aim, reaction, logistics or tactics in CoH's PvP....making most of the battle fought in character creation not in the actual confrontation. Regardless if its zone or arena PvP.
Coh pvp was actually very successful in that it built up a core community that was passionate about it, and stayed passionate about it up until they basically gutted everything in I13. These were people who were willing to put up with the miserable lack of support for pvp from the devs FOR YEARS. Even casual pvp was really good in the early days--I would run arena nights after Hammi raids and get a really good turnout.
The appeal was there for a good portion of the population. But pvp was always treated like an afterthought. When the arenas broke, it took multiple issues for them to get around to fixing it. Every update you could count on a new bug or some power becoming OP. People would beta test this stuff on test and the devs would let it slide if it didn't impact pve. Players would organize pvp events on the test server and the devs shut down tournaments and ladders without offering any kind of concession to the people who were trying to make things work. If they had treated pve this badly, the game would've folded after a couple issues.
If that were true, then everyone who was min/maxed and well geared would've performed on roughly the same level, which was not the case.
PvP vs PvE is a long-standing feud between different types of players with a few peacemakers on the fence trying to bring the two camps together. PvE players tend to be more casual in their style of play, even the ones that super-tweak their builds and confer with each other on how to get another 1% recharge time. PvP players tend to like the hectic pace of play that comes with facing another opponent. CoH's PvP had a number of drawbacks:
Lack of support. As was mentioned just now, there was little if any support for the PvP system. The Devs had limited resources and PvE was their bread and butter. You don't worry about the water bill when you're starving...you buy food and hope the other will keep a while. This can drive away frustrated players
Rooted playstyle. Each character was rooted in place during animations times. This is counter to the more mobile playstyle that PvP could have benefited from. This is because, I believe, the game wasn't built with PvP in mind and it was only added afterwards.
Impossible balance. There is NO WAY to properly balance the PvE side of the game (designed to fight relatively mindless AI opponents) and living, thinking enemies. The two are as different as apples and lemons. On the PvE side you have brainless mobs that clumped together (a Controller's dream), seldom ran (and when they did it was perpetual) and had no cover mechanics. On the PvP side you have smarter opponents who might run and regroup, try different tactics, hide in cover and LEARN. I'm sorry but there is no way to properly balance the two sides without making PvP so homogeneous as to kill the fun.
The playerbase itself. I tried actual PvP (as opposed to arena matches against friends for badges and fun) exactly 3 times. My first outing was a blast, the next two were gank-fests where gangs of enemies would use TP Foe to yank me from the safe zone and pound me to mush. Had it not been for these last two instances I might have spent more time and energy there but alas a few bad apples spoiled it for me. A playerbase MUST police itself or else behavior like this will damage a game. We've talked about this in other threads. WE are the ones who will determine if the game succeeds or fails. All the devs can do is hand us the game...they can't be there every second of every day.
I don't know how to overcome the balance issues but if the Devs can figure it out then I'm willing to try. However PvE will, again, be their bread and butter so I'd rather see resources spent there.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
We obviously have differing opinions of what is successful.
This here is exactly my point...you say 'core group who stuck it out without support'. Those are the players who were already sold on the idea of PvP. Getting those who are on the fence interested about PvP is how to make it successful.
CoH made ALOT of mistakes in regards to its PvP. I pointed out the one I found to be the worst in relation to a players introduction to PvP. I then offered a suggestion to change it. I am not sure what this list of issues has to do with that.
If all I had said was gear and min maxing then you would be right. You ignore animation/recharge and spike damage. Both of which are effectively part of character creation. This is why CoH PvP was often called 'Rock, Paper, ect.
Two character exactly the same, gear and power selection, will perform on roughly the same level except in extreme cases of totally new player vs a highly experienced one. In fact I would go so far as to say that the winner will more times than not be decided purely on who strikes first.
There is nothing wrong with this type of system mind you. With the massive amount of character variations there will seldom be a matchup of identical characters. But my opinion remains. Few people will look at CoT and buy it based on the type of PvP it offers as it does not have the core competitive elements that PvP in other games offer.
Actually the opposite was true. Cox pvp was popular precisely because it was extremely fast paced and mobile compared to other MMOs. The rooting you're talking about was trivial to overcome--you just kited the opponent and attacked mid jump. You could cover a lot of ground very quickly and really use the vertical aspect of the map to break LOS or maneuver. Compare this to a typical MMO where you spend a significant amount of time just running across the map to engage the enemy.
A playerbase CAN'T police itself, and that is an expectation that SHOULDN'T be placed on it. The is no WE that makes the game pass or fail. I pay money to play a game for entertainment, not to worry about how other people are using it. The idea that the players are responsible for problems related to design issues is way of giving the devs a pass and excusing them from offering any real resolution to these problems.
You talk about being tp ganked in a zone as if this is a problem that needs policing. And yet this is a fairly innocuous strategy in pve--want to get rid of a sapper, tp him to your party where they all spike him. If you're /dev or /traps, tp something onto your bombs. So why would you expect something that works against mobs to not be used against players? In pvp people will use whatever strategy will bring success,the same as in pve. But the fact that pvp puts you on the receiving end makes this tactic somehow morally reprehensible in the eyes of some players, which is irrational.
When you logged into a pvp zone there was a countdown. You had immunity for several seconds in which to position your character somewhere. Then you typically were in a base that had drones and offered some cover. This is what the developers considered appropriate for the zone. So if players are getting yanked from their base and killed, how do we go from "the safeness of the pvp base, as designed by the devs, is lacking" to "WE as a playerbase have to police this kind of bad behavior"? How does that make any sense?
A new player like you, who wasn't already sold on pvp, shouldn't have even been in that zone doing deathmatch style pvp. The bridge between pve and pvp for that kind of player is team objective style matches (capture the flag, defend the base, etc.). Pvpers begged the devs for this sort of thing for years and they never implemented it. So much of the pvp-pve acrimony could've been avoided if the cox devs had understood this (or cared) but the closest they came was base raids and they let that wither and die as well.
Cox was the first game I pvped in. I was not already sold on it and a lot of my friends were the same. And as I mentioned, there were a lot of casual people involved early on. People on the fence DID play pvp. But casual people are not going to set through endless bugs, broken functionality, and gross power imbalances--particularly when there's no tangible reward for it. No inf, no xp, nothing. Over the years this participation died down.
You could look at most of the player run ladders and leagues that took place on test. These are all veteran players with the same access to equipment, largely playing the same lineups with the exact same min/maxed builds. If skill was not a factor, the results would've been largely random, which they weren't. The thing differentiating these groups was the quality of the teamwork, which is the most important factor when we're talking about MMO pvp.
Even running around solo in zone, you could tell which players were skilled and which weren't. A skilled player would be able to survive engagements with multiple players while still earning kills.
I don't even know what core elements the CoT team intends to include. Unless you have a crystal ball or something , this pronouncement seems premature.
This jump while attacking was never the intended way powers were supposed to work. It was left in to simulate exactly what I spoke of earlier... in other words even the good part of CoH PvP was a glitch.
This is exactly why I made my suggestion.
Your personal experiences are not the rule. If you truly think that CoH PvP ever had a significant playerbase then I don't see how this can be discussed. Once a week tournaments (that had wildly fluctuating participation) and a small core group of zone PvP'rs is not significant to me. I read somewhere about the datamining of CoH PvP where it gave how many players participate in PvP in a month vs those that don't but I cannot find it now. Hopefully someone can find it just to show how unpopular it was.
Are you saying that both teams had the same powersets and gear? If not then you have not refuted my claims. If you are then you are just feeding my argument in that only when build and gear are equal does this nebulous skill take effect.
And just for the record ...I in no way said skill was not a factor. I specifically said that build played a more important role in CoH PvP than aim, tactics, logisitics or timing. Just so I am clear....I am not saying that CoH did not include aim (cone or targetable aoes for example), tactics (things like focusing all attacks on one foe), logistics (as in where you are in the battle) or timing (saving that stun so you can use it in conjunction with another stun to break mez protection for example). I am saying that the vast majority of who will win a fight is based on a characters build, which in and of itself is a skill....This is why certain powersets were popular for PvP and others were not. This is also why certain AT's were popular for PvP and others were not.
Well as I already explained how I did not discount skill. My opinion on this statement is the solo was built for PvP and the team was not. But as this is a hypothetical and unprovable situation (both my argument and yours) lets move on.
You keep bringing up 'skill' as the deciding factor in PvP but never even attempt to define that skill. Give me some examples of 'skill' so I can at least understand what you think is skill in CoH PvP.
I don't need a crystal ball to have read what the devs have said they decided upon for gameplay. No twitch mechanics, tab targeting, powersets with a general design similar to CoH (as in will have preset animation/recharge/damage/ect to be influenced by an enhancement system). Couple this with the fact that they have said both PvP and PvE combat will function the same. The only thing I am not sure has been decided on is if powers will root or not.
Not premature. Just my opinion.
The most accurate description of PvP in CoH I've ever come across was something along the lines of:
It's like playing basketball with a half-deflated ball, on a warped floor, with bent hoops. Sure players figured out a way to make the game work and found fun in the version of the game they essentially made out of what was given to them, but that doesn't change the fact that practically everything about it was foundationally wrong.
We're keenly aware of the issues of the old game's PvP. Thanks to threads like this, old archived threads from the old game's forums, threads from other boards, and multiple personal experiences on the team, we've quite a list of what was wrong / not to do - what players ended up likeing (rightly or wrongly as the game was intended to be).
The intent on the foundational design of our combat mechanics takes PvP into account and indeed, PvP might be used to drive the way PvE plays as much if not more than the way PvE changes can affect PvP. Does that mean we will get everything right? Probably not. Its the nature of the beast with MMOs, particularly like the one we are aiming to make with the wide range of possible build designs. Players are sure to find ways to do things we didn't intend to happen. Some of those will be happy accidents, some of them unfortunate consequences, and sometimes they need to be changed for the over-all health of the game. We do aim to have laid out a decent foundation to build up from in either case - it will all be one house, with players living in different rooms if you will.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I take this thread as a big reminder that if you want to "test drive" PvP in a way that is accessible and doesn't lend itself to Ganking Newbs, what you really need is ... PvEvP.
You need to have the opposing Players interacting with an Environment element that they're competing over, rather than pounding away at each other directly.
In other words, you need ... [b]A BIG RED BALL[/b] ... and a football field.
Turn PvEvP into a competitive SPORT rather than a "I Keel U NAO!" sort of gankfest and you'll achieve something that PvP rarely does. You'll have created a way to DRAW new Players into enjoying playing "against" other Players, rather than just merely against the AI on the Server.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Honestly, I doubt this discussion is in any way significant to you. You're coming across as a naysayer more than anything else. If you simply think pvp should not be included in CoT, then you should just make the case.
If your idea of the heyday of cox pvp was a weekly tournament and a small group of zone pvpers, then I doubt you were involved enough to really have any kind of informed perspective. When pvp was first introduced, it took me 3 days just to get in a match because so many people were queuing. There would be arena nights, player run pvp leagues, and you could easily find matches at most times. We organized large server vs. server events where large group matches took place on test. This was all before zones were even added. I would call that a significant playerbase--sufficient to sustain the activities of those interested.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You would often have an 8v8 where the lineups and builds were basically the same. There might be variations such as a blaster dropping out for a rad/psi defender. Or a second emp being replaced by a kin. But if someone was bringing a jump team, it was pretty clear what that involved.
The fact that they were using the same lineups, with the same builds, and the same level of gearing did not result in them playing more or less at the same level.
You said this:
Your points about builds and gearing trumping skill are reasonable from a casual perspective. If you don't have a competitive build and good gear, you are at a disadvantage. Welcome to MMOs. It's been like that in every one that I've played.
Usually people find out what is effective in pvp and gear for it. Then they match themselves up against teams that are similarly competitive. That being said I can think of plenty of examples where skillful players brought oddball, subpar builds to the table and did well with them. And I had at least a couple matches where I won against an opponent with vastly superior gear as well.
Strawman argument. I responded to your statement that very little skill was involved. I didn't make a blanket assertion that skill was always the deciding factor, although on a competitive level where people were using min/maxed, fully geared lineups that certainly WAS the case. As for what skill is--you're own summation above is pretty good. I would add the ability to quickly lock and cycle through targets while maintaining movement as well. Of course this type of skill seems unimpressive when the player in question doesn't actually need to play well--when they have an expensive, OP build that they're using to plow through newbies. But nobody should be evaluating skill level in a game based on what some scrub is doing in a pvp zone.
Objective based pvp. This is very typical in MMOs. All they need to do is what works well in other games and emulate it. There's a ton of examples out there.
In SWTOR you have Huttball. Grab the ball, carry it over the enemy goal line while avoiding the flaming pits of death.
I really don't know where you get this idea at all. I have stated in the past that I do not find this type of PvP to be much fun anymore but I don't think I have suggested that it not be included in the game. In fact I think I said the opposite, CoT needs to have some form of PvP or the game will not be complete.
Oh my god man...that level of participation lasted maybe 3 months....an expected time for a new feature to be a major draw. After that the zones were relative dead zones, arena would take upwards of 20 minutes before a match was found and the 'pvp nights' had an incredible fluctuation in the amount of people who joined in.
But NONE of this even relates to my suggestion of introduction zones for PvP.
Uggh....The point you missed was the reason they had roughly the same builds and gear was to ensure a competitive engagement. Otherwise the battle was not fair. An all blaster team vs an all brute team... who wins most times? A team of blaster heavy on AoE or cones vs a team of blasters heavy on single target...who wins. This is purely team combat. For duels the character build is even more out of balance with skill level.
The entire quote...not just the misleading part you used... goes on to say what I consider competitive skills vs what skills CoH PvP used. I will leave it up to you to scroll up to reread it.
Well ignoring the 'people look for similarly competitive teams' comment...how can you expect your personal experience to outweigh mine. The reason why I am not brining up anecdotal evidence is because its just that...anecdotal. But hey why not open that can of worms.... I have a friend who did not PvP much in CoH while I did. After many months I finally got him to agree to a duel. My character was designed for PvP and his was not. I beat him 10 times in a row while barely taking any damage. Then I gave him a build to use for PvP and we fought again...the battles went from me winning 10 in a row to him winning 4 of the 10. My anecdotal example supports my claims while your anecdotal example supports yours....neither is a good example.
It's funny how you leave out important words, ignore the entirety of statements and flat out put words in my mouth then say I am making strawman arguments.
Regardless, The reason why skill 'was the case' in your min/max fully geared lineups was because they had taken every other factor out of the equation leaving nothing but the small amount of competitive skill CoH PvP required. And even then those nebulous teams that won more times than not were not winning by huge margins.
You really think the examples I provided and tab targeting have a greater impact on the outcome of a battle than a characters build? If you do we got nothing to talk about as that makes no sense to me at all. I was really hoping you might have something that could be discussed.
Reading comprehension fail. I was describing participation prior to the introduction of zones, which then had their own phases of popularity. Arena was added in I4 (May 4th, 2005). Zones were added in I6 (Oct. 27, 2005). RV wasn't added until I7 (June 6, 2006). This 3 month estimate is just another idle speculation on your part.
What the hell is a nebulous team? Do you actually understand that there were competitive ladders and seasons held in cox with established guilds? And as part of the competition the lineups were posted and the outcomes of the matches were recorded? Generally there would be a round of matches to establish the initial seeding of the teams. The top tier teams would destroy the lower ones by HUGE margins. Sometimes that was the case even with the top tier team vs. the second or third spot team.
You're making two seperate claims with the assumption that one supports the other. Your first claim is that AT, build, and gearing largely trumps players skill. I'm not disputing this, although I've witnessed many examples of skilled players winning matches that, on paper, they should've lost. The general state of affairs though was that you needed on optimized, well-geared character to be on a competitive level with other dedicated pvpers. This is typical for MMOs that are based on level progression and gear grinding.
Your second claim is that cox pvp involved very little skill. Your only support for this is the first claim and (I think) the insinuation that tab targeting eliminates skill from a game. The initial point I made still stands: if it was primarily about builds and gear, and not skill, then the various competitive pvp guilds would've been more or less on the same level--WHICH WAS NOT THE CASE. This is part of the actual history of the game, not my subjective experience of it. A low-mid tier group like Whirligig or Blacklisted would not win versus top tier groups such as Velocity or Tribute.
The illogic of what you're saying could be applied to professional fighting. It's mandatory for a boxer or mma fighter to need a great deal of strength and conditioning. Somebody without these attributes can't compete professionally. Therefore, by your rationale, professional fighing invloves very little skill. Tell that to Anderson Silva or Georges St-Pierre. Your anecdote about dueling your friend is a great example of a very poor justification for your stance. Let's imagine you and your friend are wrestling and you dominate him easily. Then he starts working out. When he comes back, he wins about half the time. How is this any reflection on the art of wrestling? Maybe you weren't skillful at pvp. Maybe your friend actually had a natural affinity for it. Whatever the case, this is an idiotic basis on which to judge whether a community of players were actually skillful at something.
No I was stating that PvP was only popular for maybe 3 months after the inclusion of the PvP. If it makes you feel better I will say it was popular for about 3 months after Arena then 3 months after Zones and 3 months after RV. Heck if you want say 6 months. That's 1 1/2 years PvP was popular....out of 7 years that PvP was in the game.
People tried it...and stopped doing it for whatever reason.
A nebulous team is the ones you keep referring to...to use a dictionary definition...they are unclear, vague and ill defined. Unless I can see all the info involved in the ' competitive ladders' including a complete build list then these leagues and teams have no meaning other than an eyewitness statement.....the most unreliable kind.
You have been disputing it the entire time....you are disputing it in this statement. And your entire argument is 'I saw it so its true'. I did not see it and in fact saw the opposite. It is why I stopped participating in the tournaments and the zones....
This is one hundred percent besides the point.
I am going to go back to my original personal opinion of PvP in CoH and explain it again so maybe you will understand that your being upset at my comments is nothing more than hurt feeling for a perceived insult.
The type of PvP combat that City of Heroes provided (and presumably what CoT will as well) is one that does not focus on the traditional skills that other PvP require. Skills like aim, timing, tactics and reactions take a back seat to build, tab targeting and animation/recharge. In other words it does not appeal to the larger more common PvP world such as FPS, RTS or MMO's that do not have a power bar you click 1 2 or 3 for.
Again, you just ignore how I have repeatedly explained the term 'competitive skill'.
You bring up a few groups here and in truth I have only heard or maybe just remember one. Whilrigig who never really made it to mid tier but that was because Gobotic (I think) and his guys seldom went for the flavor of the month builds (they didn't always even have max level guys and they were not always from the same guild or use TS). Again this is purely from memory so I cannot be sure of the names or if I am even remembering the right one. So no...my memory is that Whirligig would not beat and optimized team with their less than optimized one. They were also gone in like a year and a half.
I can't even begin to understand where you got this.
I mean the strength and conditioning you talk about would translate in CoH as gear and Power selection. A Professional Boxer or MMA fighter requires ALL the skill I describe as 'competitive skills'. Timing, Aim, Reaction and tactics and I would argue that those skill are actually more important than strength (think Ali vs Foreman). Your analogy makes no sense at all to me.
Well first lets discuss your thoughts on wrestling. Its a very well known fact that the most competitive wrestling is in the lower weight classes, as in the classes that are not as physically imposing.
Next, you bring up how 'maybe I'm bad at PvP' or "maybe my friend is good at PvP'. This is the EXACT thing I have been saying about your arguments (including the one you responded to with these thoughts). They are incomplete ....or nebulous and as such have no sway on me.
Finally, you again ignore my explanations of the skill I am talking about saying its idiotic too boot.
Well, I am done. You have completely missed the point I was making, continue to make arguments that rely purely on personal experience, ignore many things I have said so that your points makes sense and acted in a hypocritical way.
I am done with you unless you can respond with something that isn't personal experience and doesn't ignore the complete thoughts I have made.
Attack mid-jump? So jumping was the most effective tactic? Sounds a bit monochromatic to me. Cyclops doesn't 'jump, neither does the Human Torch. As for other MMOs where you spend 'significant' time running towards the foe which ones are you speaking of?
As for the Devs policing the playerbase, how may Moderators do you think they employ during peak hours? Just HOW are they supposed to keep track of every power and how its used? If I get ganked and lodge a complaint (something you say should be expected behavior), what should they do?
As to 'expected behavior' what sort of twisted world do you live in? Do you REALLY see 'I challenge you to a duel' and 'hey let's all go slaughter THAT guy' in the same light? How many players do you think will enjoy the second of those choices? How many NEW PvPers do you think there will be if that's what they encounter their first or second outing as I did? How long will PvP last when the only players participating in it are roving gangs of malcontents out to gank the first loner they see peeking his nose into the zone?
This is how bullying starts in schools and we all know how well THAT works out...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I know its frustrating to get repeatedly 'ganked'. But the truth is the zones were designed around an 'anything goes' and 'free for all' concept. Even the optional PvP zone goals like Warburg nukes or RV domination were only added to offer an option of play in those zones...not to replace the anything goes concept. Basically ganking was not only allowed it was expected.
The suggestions he made (objective PvP like Capture the flag or Defence) are exactly the way to provide a better introduction to PvP. I honestly think you misunderstood his intention as he was trying to offer a solution to the problems you faced in Zone PvP .
That said, there is nothing wrong with wanting to create a group of PvP'rs who act as a sort of politeness police. I would expect ALOT of resistance tho.
I'm just at a loss why people like you pull numbers out of their rear and expect to be taken seriously. You stated that the zones were dead after three months--which was before the zones were even added. Now based on the dates that I supplied, you expand that to a year and a half. Let's set aside for the moment that this is another instance of you just guessing. One would likely draw very different conclusions from pvp fading after 3 months vs. a year and a half. If participation had died off in three months we could maybe conclude that the pvp system was irredeemably bad and/or there was absolutely no interest in the playerbase. If it died after 18 months, it may be the case that waning interest in pvp corresponded to lack of support/updates on the part of the developers.
Apparently such distinctions are lost on you. You really just seem intent on stressing that participation largely died down. THANKS SHERLOCK!
Riiiiight.....because you are ignorant of the competitive pvp that took place in the game I have to dredge up ALL of the info relating to these competitions--which would be a long list of names that you wouldn't even recognize. You're delusional.
Here's an excerpt from the pvp section of paragonwiki concerning the "competitive ladders":
I was a PVPEC server rep for Protector. One thing that was missing from that little blurb was why the issue 17 ladder disbanded so quickly--which had nothing to do with interest. The devs took test server down to conduct testing for something. That account also doesn't include various player run leagues and ladders, or pvp seasons taking place on Freedom or Infinity. Or base raids.
Why don't you explain why, if the game involved very little skill, guilds would go to test server, where they would compete and hold practices typically 3-5 times a week, in order to compete. And why there would be a D8 format for league veterans versus a D6 format for newcomers.
I didn't dispute your description. If you didn't feel this type of skill was necessary in cox it was because you weren't playing on a competitive level.
Gobotic lol. Do you mean Robobug? I was going to say that the guild name was the only thing you got right in that paragraph but then I noticed you misspelled Whirligig. Pretty much all wrong. They were on the ladder we were. They used TS, had both standard and nonstandard lineups, all fully geared and leveled, etc.
Because you apparently can't follow the analogy consistently. Ali and Foreman both had the physical athleticism required to fight at professional championship. In game terms, they were fully geared. Now imagine if, when the match was agreed upon, Ali cut out all cardio and strength training and just sparred, shadow boxed, hit the bag, etc.
Foreman would've eaten him alive within a couple rounds.
You can watch some footage of Rhonda Rousey training on youtube. This is the undisputed woman's champ who has pretty much destroyed everyone she's gone up against. You can see her train with men--just middle of the road MMA fighters who train out of that gym--and she struggles to accomplish anything. This is not because she lacks the skill. It's because the physical attributes an average guy at that level brings to the table count for a lot.
This is why we have weight divisions and men's and woman's divisions (which is more structure than cox pvp zones had tbh). Your comment about wrestling is a complete non sequitur. I know that when I wrestled in HS the lighter classes were a lot more competitive simply because there were more people at that weight level in general, so you had to compete with more people to earn a spot on the team. I don't see how this is relevant to anything.
Aside from the whole skill issue, I would not expect people from other pvp genres to be drawn to this game anyway. Is that really a legitimate expectation that fans of RTS are likely to be drawn to a superhero MMO? All this blather about skill was to address a bogus expectation that CoT will attract pvpers who don't even generally play MMOs?
Why would anyone in their right mind expect that to begin with? The people they should hope to attract are the ones playing MMOs like Guildwars, Wildstorm, WoW, etc.
Wrong...the zones were designed for PvP. Exactly WHAT PvP consisted of was up to the players. If the player's idea of PvP is duels and 1 on 1 fights then THAT'S what PvP is. The PLAYERS turned the PvP zones into gank-fests and muggings, not the Devs. You can't blame the guys who made the gun when some idiot uses it to shoot up a school.
If we stand by your statements, if we assume that all of the people playing PvP expect that kind of behavior, how many players do you think that will draw? Given than over 6000 people contributed to the KS it's fair to say that at least as many will buy into the game when it launches. Now if we use CoH's PvP numbers we can get an idea of approximately how popular PvP might be at launch. CoH had 100k subscribers and I never heard of there being more than one instance of a PvP zone so no more than 50 player at a time.
So, we have no more than 0.0005% of the players will be doing PvP. Let's be generous and say we get 10k subscribers at launch. So...you MIGHT get 5 players who are willing to do PvP at any one time. Personally this doesn't sound like much fun to me...or a good allocation of resources.
In order for PvP to be viable it HAS to attract more players. In order for there to be more players it HAS to be fun and interesting. If you really think that 'anything goes' will attract enough players to support it then good luck. Good luck attracting anyone new as well.
You have to accept that YOUR idea of fun might not be everyone else's idea of fun. The minute you starting thinking that everyone likes the same thing you do you're out of touch with the rest of the players. The minute you begin to think that your fun supersedes another player's then you've just lost the point of the game.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
You're contradicting yourself. You're saying that pvp in a zone is what the players decide it is. But then you turn around and vilify other players for doing things that you don't agree with. Why is your opinion more important than theirs? The zone is working as intended with regards to the developers. Now If the majority of players are turned off by the type of encounters they have in a pvp zone it means that the developers need to structure that zone differently or offer some sort of alternative pvp mode that will appeal to those players.
You seem to be raging on me without actually listening to the actual solutions I've been proposing. There are all kinds of different pvp options that could be included in the game that would impact on how people react to each other. For example, you keep mentioning getting ganked while wanting to duel someone. Why should you have to go to a zone in order to duel someone? In SWTOR you can duel anywhere you want. You just challenge somebody to a duel and you're both flagged for pvp against each other. Nobody can interrupt it and as soon as one is defeated both revert to normal mode. That's a design option that would fix the problem you mentioned.
I think this game should have goal oriented pvp first and foremost. Two teams enter a map and compete to meet an objective. You have to fight the other team while trying to achieve your goal. You can either queue for a match in a solo queue or enter with a team in a team queue. That way solo people get put into a random mix and organized groups can go up against other teams. You will always be on a team. You will always be working together. The antithesis of newbie walks into a zone and gets hammered by a group of more experienced people. Also there should be tangible awards for participating in these matches--more substantial for the team that wins. It should have a reasonable amount of xp/inf gain for playing.
Secondly, they should have some sort of arena setup where individuals or teams can go against each other--more or less the same as cox arenas.
Assuming they have included the first and second options I listed, THEN it would be good idea to have pvp zones. This would be an option for people who were proficient at the other pvp modes and looking for a less structured kind of challenge. But if they did not have the two other options, I would definitely skip this one.
Im gonna try and reply quick to each point. I mean why put effort in if you are going to deliberately misunderstand things.
3 months per new addition, upped to 6 to make you feel better for a total of 1 and a half years. I said 3 months because the arenas were all but deserted well before the zones came about and the zones had an even shorter shelf life when they were.
Nope, I just think you are at best mistaken about the builds of those involved at worst lying. Also I said builds and results...not names. All the names would show is that many of those who participate play multiple characters making its popularity even smaller.
So the league started with 7 guilds active. then this from Wikipedia:
Doesn't scream popular to me.
Because they didn't. They had internal PvP matches. Most times to test new builds or team makeups. Calling it a practice is misleading.
I said ignored not disputed.....but...you also disputed it. A lot.
And Nope never said it wasn't necessary (still ignoreing things to make your point), said build was more important...by a huge margin.
Maybe. Memory is fuzzy because they were gone way back in early 08. I do remember it was before I13 went live though. Heck I think it was before I13 hit test too.
Again...Nope.
Your analogy is flawed in that boxing is just not comparable to CoH PvP as boxing includes the things I stress as competitive skills to a MUCH greater degree than CoH ever did.
So to you a 130lbs person vs a 185-210lbs person is evidence that strength is the most important quality in a fighter. I mean why not go all out and compare The Hulk and Judge Judy. Both are extreme cases which fall outside comparative arguments.
Partly. Also, lower weight class means physically weaker, means power moves are less common and skillful holds and reversals become more common. You wrestled and never heard this?
And there it is ...you finally comprehend what my original statement was about. The CoH style of PvP is a niche one that will not draw in large groups of PvPèrs because it is unlike the popular genres of PvP.
I do think that fans of one type PvP could be enticed to a superhero MMO if it had similar elements. Much like how fans of Call of Duty will play GTA
I agree that is where their bread is buttered. The problem is that MMO PVP of this type is seldom exceptionally popular.
You are right on several points...it's easier to regulate human behavior than it is to expect people to play nice of their own accord. If the PvP setup prohibits muggings then there will simply be no muggings.
The 'anywhere duel' is the same way in CO but I have no idea how effective or popular it is though. MUO also has something similar IIRC. Some players may see this as immersion-breaking though.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I PvP when it takes my fancy, however I am not all that keen on "unstructured open world/zone free for all objectiveless PvP" [1]
However, short bursts of objective based "instance based" PvP I will go for. So stuff like Capture the flag/tower defence style/last man standing type of stuff works for me.
But if I have to go through a PvP zone to get something/go somewhere else, and there is no workaround? I am liable to skip that item or do it just the once.
/duel works on PvE servers. So does being able to queue up for instanced PvP whilst doing other content. It might be immersion breaking, but it also allows PvE'rs to PvP without having to suffer it all the time.
Hell, /duel is handy for the spontaneous bit of fun that can crop up[1].
[1] In Wildstar, whilst we were waiting for a couple of people to join us (they were running late in real life), we ended up doing an off the cuff round robin PvP tournament.
I came last.
You haven't put any effort into this. All you do is make blanket assertions based on what little perspective you have on the issue while insisting that I provide evidence detailing everything of which you are ignorant. Anybody who actually paid attention knows that arena activity and zone shelf life varied from server to server. There was also a space of a few issues where the arena was broken. During this time, activity dropped. When it was fixed people started using it again.
And I just think you're completely ignorant of the competitive pvp scene that took place in cox. I have my doubts as to whether you even did that much zone pvp or took part in any tournaments. While demanding a crapload of data from me regarding the ladders you've done nothing to establish that you even set foot in pvp at all, ever. Your double standard is that the observations you make supporting your opinion are to be assumed to be true and accurate, while I'm assumed to be mistaken or lying simply because you haven't personally experienced the things I'm describing. This is a farce.
You made inaccurate statements about when pvp zone activity dwindled which I corrected you on simply by posting information on release dates. The only pvp guild you seem to recognize was Whirligig and you butchered pretty much every aspect about them. I posted information about the PVPEC initiatives, ladders, etc. of which you were completely ignorant. Now this gem:
Wow, what are you smoking? How would you even have a clue what was going on with these groups if you didn't participate?
This is from the guildportal page for the last Freedom pvp league. I can't seem to direct link it here but you can find it if you google Freedom pvp League 2011. We also had internal matches, tested lineups, etc. IN ADDITION to these scheduled practices:
Note that you completely ducked the question I posed to you: If cox pvp involved very little skill, why would people have bothered to set up leagues/ladders on test server? And why would there be two different structures for beginners and league veterans?
The answer is that these were players were looking for skilled competition. If the game mechanics precluded this, people wouldn't have bothered. Particularly the people who had left the game and would resub when a league was starting (then immediately unsub when it was over). You think that these matches didn't involve aiming, tactics, logistics, timing, etc. simply because you didn't experience it yourself. You are just arguing from ignorance.
No. It's evidence that certain physical attributes are prerequisites to be competitive in certain contexts.
Cox pvp was often unstructured and unbalanced. You would have heavily geared, pvp specced Hulks running around stomping Judge Judy's (newbies with pve builds and sub par gear). Pretty quickly the Judge Judy's clear out and you've got a small selection of FotM builds that are actually viable under those conditions. This is where someone like you throws up their hands and says that it all boils down to build and there isn't a lot of skill involved.
Skill becomes apparent when structure is added--the same way that Rhonda's skill becomes apparent when she's in the ring with another woman in her own weight class. Skill in cox pvp became apparent when everyone had access to the top gear, everyone used an optimal build, and you had a team of 8 people facing off against another group of eight in an encounter that had a clear beginning and ending. If you don't think that the competitive skill elements you keep harping on applied at that level, it's just because you didn't do it. You had 10 minutes where you had to anticipate being spiked, phase or pop inspirations before you were melted, haul ass and los if those options were unavailable. You had to lock on to quickly moving targets and fire off an attack chain in sync with the rest of your group or else the target would be tipped off and heal/phase/los. Buffers/debuffers had to do their jobs while staying alive, keeping track of the enemy, and monitoring the condition of their own teammates.
Note that none of this is me advocating that CoT should be structured the same way. They can do better, while hopefully recapturing some of the good aspects of cox pvp.
I was going to reply to everything but the truth is I am bored of this misunderstanding filled conversation.
Please man read the parts I have underlined and then reread this statement by me
They say incredibly similar things. Right here you say to see these skills you NEED an optiomized build making build more important than the skill. The fact that build is a requirement not an option to be competitive means those competitive skills have less bearing on the outcome of a match as build does.
But I think the thing that upset you most was when I said this...
You took this statement and missed the key word (underlined). You assumed this was in relation to all PvP and not duels. An important distinction as duels are where you see just how out of balance build is with skill. I touch upon this again in a later post ....here...
You have gotten upset and argued because you have misunderstood much of what I have said though it seems you agree with the underline opinion I have.
It is obvious that you enjoy the gameplay in CoHs PvP while I lost interest in it beyond a casual participant.
That is fine....enjoy it all you want. I would like to enjoy it as well and stated my opinion as to what the biggest flaws were in CoHs PvP system at its core. That is why I prefaced the comment with -personal opinion-.
And for the record this:
Is why I said it was misleading to call it practice.
Its just more PvP....the same as you would find in tourneys except without it affecting your rankings. Or are you now going to tell me that these were not PvP matches and that you set up specific situation in the match and drilled them.
Regardless ...if a small portion (the tourney guilds) of all PvP in CoH is the only way to see skill in PvP take a center stage what does that say about the rest of the PvP in the game.
Gosh, sorry I won't roll over for your blather. I spent a lot of time on team pvp, I'd rather you not speculate it all away.
No. You have a remarkably two dimensional mindset on this issue. An optimized build has a determining influence on a match RELATIVE to how sub-optimal the opponent's build is. As the opponent's build improves, the influence of build decreases until the builds are exactly equal in quality--even down to the last accolade. At this point, build has ZERO influence on the outcome of the match. It's all skill, latency issues notwithstanding.
And this is not the point I was addressing. You made the claim that there was very little skill involved in cox pvp. This is because you had no experience of actual competitive pvp. Backpedal and say you were talking about duels or whatever. It has no bearing on the issue. You were simply wrong.
Ugh...you are either confused or are playing disingenuous semantics.
If someone has the wherewithal to make the roster of a pvp team, they don't need practice hitting a button to fire off a power. They should know how to navigate the map. I have no idea what kind of drilling you're expecting to take place here.
Practice is to give people experience working together as a team, which is best done by fighting another team. The rest of the guild watches and gives feedback. Most teams had more than 8 people, but less than 16 wasn't uncommon so internals were often problematic. Practices gave more opportunities for different people to try, emping, calling targets, etc.It's not just "more pvp." Official matches would be the best players playing the roles in which they were the most reliable (versus what they may have wanted to do). Practice is to make that roster deeper and more flexible, as well as try new lineups.
Let's not forget that you claimed only internal matches were happening, regardless of how you define "practice."
It says that pvp in cox needed a lot of work. It says that there needed to be a transitional game mode (such as goal oriented pvp) between pve and pvp. It says that there were a lot of balance issues that needed to be addressed. It says a lot of things, but that's beside the point. Someone like you who comes along and simply dismisses it all as requiring very little skill is just white noise. You're pointing out obvious problems and denying the aspects that were awesome simply because you didn't take part.
I didn't like task forces. I did maybe 8 the entire time I played cox. I would not then go on game forums and comment about task forces that I didn't actually run. That seems like common sense to me. Generalizing about all TFs, based on my limited experience, would be foolish. So stop.
No, you would rather put words in my mouth, ignore what I say, insult me and make things up.
Goodbye.
I think this would be better if there was a choice, like if we had two pvp shards, one where the mechanics where pretty much left the same from PVE and one that changed your stats the way CoX changed there's too, that way the player can choose what they want rather than the majority.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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