That Super Jump in CoX had worked the same way that IR did from the kin set. Why didn't it? I don't know if i'm in the minority, would anyone else prefer the CoT version of SJ worked the same way IR did in its movement? (I don't mean a click to activate power, obviously it too would be a toggle)
Tue, 04/01/2014 - 05:37
#1
I wished
Could you be more specific? Other than the graphical effect and it being a AoE buff what was different about how it functioned after casting?
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Why should they make "SJ work like something else" in CoT when we could have both the original CoH version of SJ and another version of SJ that works like whatever Psycho Jas was saying?
CoT should, if anything, always give us MORE options than CoH provided. There's no reason why they should need to replace one kind of travel power (that worked fairly well for most people for 8.5 years) with another when they could simply let us have multiple versions of SJ.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Correct me if I'm wrong, Champions has, I think, three similar travel powers that have varying plusses or minuses to running speed and jump height/distance between the extremes of SuperSpeed and SuperJump. They all balance out to give approximately the same average travel speed, it just gives you a choice to better reflect a character concept. Always seemed a nice easy way to give variety without completely different animations and so on.
I'm also in the camp of giving us an option for a secondary travel power at a higher level for long distance travel. I like the idea of an acrobatic character getting something like a skybike (for instance) from some friendly organization (like Mattel) after he's established himself. Obviously, it increases merchandising possibilities. :) I mean, Spiderman evidently needed a helicopter, a motorcycle and a bune buggy, right? (A dune buggy? Seriously?)
I suppose I should have been more clear, IR allowed you to change direction and move backwards and forwards left and right far quicker than the way SJ worked. I'm having troubles to find a video to illustrate this, this is the best I could find https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_HlLrb85QA (the fact it is a PvP match has no relevance)
Overall I just thought IR gave you more control once air born than SJ did.
My point was never a disliking towards the graphics, animation or anything like that of SJ, just the mechanic of how the power was designed seemed a lot better with IR than SJ.
Theres actually no argument to be made if i'm honest against SJ working the same way that IR did as a toggle.
If memory serves Wonder Woman (at least the Lynda Carter TV show version) had at various times a motorcycle, a full-length dive/swim suit, and a skateboard. Apparently this shows us that practically every superhero needs like 4 or 5 alternate "travel powers" ready to go.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think the whole point of IR was that it was a buff that provided better 3D movement control than any other "actual" travel power. It was never meant to be a travel power in an of itself. It was an extra buff that could be used "in addition" to a standard travel power. I suspect the original CoH Devs didn't incorporate the effects of IR directly into any existing travel power because that combination of effects in one power might have been too powerful (especially in PvP).
Now if CoT wanted to try to make a "IR enhanced version of SJ" I'm sure that would be possible, but to keep it balanced they'd probably make it slower and or its max height lower so that it wouldn't be better than normal SJ by default.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Except it didn't cause any sort of balancing issues. In PvP pre i13, kins were useful to negate TS, slows worked bla bla bla, post i13 in zone they did nothing against TS and in arena you could just turn off TS. IR would never provide an unfair advantage over another team, it just came down to preference and better movement control it was never a match winner and never would be a match winner if CoH was still alive today... but this is all slightly irrelevant as its CoT were talking about.
There is no reason for them not to have SJ work in a new game in in whatever way they deem fit and not ruin the balance of play. My suggestion was that it worked more like the mechanics of IR, I'm pretty sure that that would NOT effect the balance of play in PvE or PvP in any game that has some forms of travel powers.
Theres also no reason why IR couldn't exist in CoH the way it did without SJ working exactly the same? IR would still negate TS outside of PvP, IR would still give people without SJ or flight a means for better vertical movement. SJ would still suffer any TS effects etc it just moved and acted the same way as IR? is this really that hard of a concept.
As far as YOU know that may be the case. I'm simply willing to let the CoT Devs decide if it would be overpowered or not.
Obviously there's no reason why we couldn't have a version of IR in CoT that'll provide the same kinds of buffing advantages that it did in CoH. I just suspect there was a reason why having a SINGLE power be able to provide the combined capabilities of both IR and a travel power together was never implemented. Technically it was possible, so the reason it didn’t happen must have been related to overall power balancing.
So no it's not a "hard" concept to imagine, it just might be one the Devs don't want to provide on purpose.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I don't know why you're up in arms over this. It was a mere suggestion, you're suggesting that it would possibly provide gameplay imbalance in the future and probably did in CoH, I gave examples of how it didn't can you give any possible example of how it might? No, because you're arguing for the sake of it. pz,
This brings up the question of whether or not you want different versions of what is basically the same power, or at least different powers that perform largely the same function in the game. Personally, I'm all for it. I Think you could add a lot of rich complexity by making some powers, say the flight ones, different for achother and put them in different sets, making different enhancement recipes/sets for them, making them easier/harder to work into a build (via per-requisites, etc).
Imagine you have the following "fly" variant options:
Natural Wings: wing costume graphics, flappy animations, have to repeatedly hit the spacebar or some other key to "flap" and thus maintain altitude or else set autorun properties to do it for you, etc
Jet Pack: back mounted metal thingy, thrust via some sort of jet engine, steering like an airplane, yanking and banking, etc
Magic Carpet: standing upright, full x,y,z, control, can do all emotes and animations as if not flying at all, etc
Air Elemental Flight: body turns into air, you fly fast with perfect control but cannot make attacks while "phased" etc
Helicopter Flight: like Jet pack, but steering and speed controls work like a helicopter (cyclic and collective controls instead of stick and throttle)
Sky Cycle: You jump on your flying machine (or flying horse or something) and you can fly pretty fast with decent maneuverability, but you can only use a small subset of your attack powers since you have to steer and control the bike using its physical controls using one or both hands and feet. Only specific attacks with the "hands free" descriptor would work, like Eye Beams, etc. Upgraded bike (or upgraded Pegasus) has some attacks of its own you can use while flying, etc.
These would all be different options available in different ways, some easier to use, others harder to use. Some have really good Procs and whatnot you could slot in them for combat, others not so much. Some might make you travel faster, others slower. Some might require several per-requisites other fewer or none etc. With a little play testing, assuming you roll out some of these up front and others later on, I think this could be really fun. In addition to making more choices, it creates more flavor for toons and allows for more power diversity, assuming you don't just make one power strictly better than the rest in most meaningful ways.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
lol I'm not "up in arms" over this. I'm simply giving you a legitimate reason why your "mere suggestion" might not be doable.
One more time I don't think there was any problem with this as long as the effects of IR and another travel power (like SJ) were TWO SEPARATE POWERS. However I suspect there would be a problem if you had ONE SINGLE POWER that combined the effects of IR and a travel power together in a single toggle. Sure people might have used the two powers together all the time - the point was that the game required you to use two independent powers (one a travel power, the other a buff power) to gain that net effect. You have to ask yourself why that was the case.
Again I'll let the CoT Devs judge this... although given the way it worked in CoH for 8.5 years I suspect it'll be the same in CoT. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Just to put in my 2 inf, if I remember correctly, SJ was significantly faster than flight and had much greater mobility than SS, so it probably needed to grant less control to balance it with the others.
And while some degree of control was necessary to make it usable, it was always weird to me to be able to jump and then change directions so easily in mid air without webs or glider wings or something. So I liked the fact they made the control at least minimal.
But, to each their own :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Honestly if you're happy to let the CoT Devs decide this why on earth are you even contributing to this thread? It's not to give an opinion because you clearly don't have one, you're just telling me stuff that I already know. Theres clearly a lack of communication here, or more obviously a lack of understanding on your side.
My suggestion: CoT's version of SJ has the same control abilities that IR had, or a travel power that is the same as IR if so many people just loved moving really slowly from side to side with SJ.
Your input: WHAT? HUH? WHY? IMBALANCE, RANDOM PVP SHOUT OUT, COT DEVS WILL KNOW BEST, STOP SUGGESTING THINGS.
go away please
So if you jump up on a trampoline you can't change direction at all without using your webs or glider wings or something? Also SJ was a far better travel power than fly, ss or TP by a long shot, so anyone who took anything other than that (unless they paired SS and SJ) did so for thematic reasons most likely, so really their idea of balancing SJ between the other travel powers wasn't balancing it at all, as it was still better.
so you can also go away..
In fact to any potential readers please don't contribute to this thread unless you're agreeing with me or have a logical valuable explanation for why SJ can't work in the same mechanics that IR did without it being a click to activate and AoE buff.
Actually, once you've left the ground (or trampoline or what ever) and you're already in the air, there isn't much you can do to significantly change your direction. Not much at all. That's basic physics.
And of course there is no reason why a SJ travel power in CoT couldn't work with the mechanics of IR without it being a click to activate and AoE buff. If they design it that way, that's how it will work.
Going away...
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Because you've posted this thread in a public game forum where future players are essentially encouraged to respond to each other? Didn't read anything to suggest that only Devs could respond here...
If I didn't have some kind of favorable opinion on this game I wouldn't be here.
If you knew the things I was responding to you about you might have reconsidered posting this faulty suggestion to begin with.
On this point I could agree with you...
And then we swing back to disagreement.
You post a suggestion in a game's public forum and only want responses that blindly agree with your position? Do you even understand how the Internet works?
Next time you want to suggest a new feature for a game like this you might want to spend a little time thinking it through the same way the Devs might and offer some reasonable evidence for why your suggestion makes sense and wouldn't have any problems from a game mechanics or balance point of view. Believe me my relatively minor (yet obvious) criticism to your idea is nothing compared the gauntlet the Devs would put this through to make it workable for their game.
P.S. Throwing a tantrum and begging people who don't agree with you to "go away" is almost the surest way to make sure people will continue to pick on your posts. Again don't you know anything about how the Internet works?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
[quote=Lothic]Psycho Jas wrote:
Honestly if you're happy to let the CoT Devs decide this why on earth are you even contributing to this thread?
Because you've posted this thread in a public game forum where future players are essentially encouraged to respond to each other? Didn't read anything to suggest that only Devs could respond here...
Psycho Jas wrote:
It's not to give an opinion because you clearly don't have one
If I didn't have some kind of favorable opinion on this game I wouldn't be here.
Psycho Jas wrote:
you're just telling me stuff that I already know.
If you knew the things I was responding to you about you might have reconsidered posting this faulty suggestion to begin with.
Psycho Jas wrote:
Theres clearly a lack of communication here
On this point I could agree with you...
Psycho Jas wrote:
or more obviously a lack of understanding on your side.
And then we swing back to disagreement.
Psycho Jas wrote:
My suggestion: CoT's version of SJ has the same control abilities that IR had, or a travel power that is the same as IR if so many people just loved moving really slowly from side to side with SJ.
Your input: WHAT? HUH? WHY? IMBALANCE, RANDOM PVP SHOUT OUT, COT DEVS WILL KNOW BEST, STOP SUGGESTING THINGS.
go away please
You post a suggestion in a game's public forum and only want responses that blindly agree with your position? Do you even understand how the Internet works?
Next time you want to suggest a new feature for a game like this you might want to spend a little time thinking it through the same way the Devs might and offer some reasonable evidence for why your suggestion makes sense and wouldn't have any problems from a game mechanics or balance point of view. Believe me my relatively minor (yet obvious) criticism to your idea is nothing compared the gauntlet the Devs would put this through to make it workable for their game.
P.S. Throwing a tantrum and begging people who don't agree with you to "go away" is almost the surest way to make sure people will continue to pick on your posts. Again don't you know anything about how the Internet works?[/quote
Get off my thread please!
Please could Lothic go away and stop trolling this thread.
I dont need this kind of stress in my life right now
I think you should lock the thread before this gets out of hand. This isn't a place for arguing guys.
I think if you're stressed you're taking it personally.
Lothic is simply giving you constructive feedback. I think what they have to say is a good point. Negative feedback with good reason behind it is good for the discussion. The disagreement can be handled civilly.
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I think for the build parity IS an important factor. Combining the benefits of different powers into one power is not good for balance. I hated how in Champions Online teleport was handled as invisible, intangible flight. It had too many benefits to what was essentially the "flight" mechanic.
I actually like the idea of the devs creating a separate travel power to give the benefits you're looking for.. perhaps the devs will allow two travel powers in a build and they can combine in fun ways to achieve what you're looking for, but I do not support having it as the default option of Super Jump
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I was gonna ask for a reminder about exactly what 'IR' and 'TS' refered to, cuz I pretty much only flew.
But now I'm afraid that I'll be yelled at :(
Phoenix Rising's Model Citizen
IR= Inertial Reduction. It was the 8th power in the Kinetics set and was an AOE buff that granted Super Jump. It did NOT suppress speed during it's duration.
TS= Travel Suppression. Most travel powers slowed WAY down while you were attacking (PvE reference).
TS existed in PvP
This is a dictatorship. The rules of the thread was not to comment unless you are agreeing with me or somehow through sheer stupidity and boredom disagreeing with me.
You broke the rules, leave.
You are mistaken, sir or madam. This is not your thread. As soon as you posted it, it became common property and we may mock you freely. The only way to escape is to... escape.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yup it absolutely did, but I was out of love with PvP well before the I13 changes and only wanted to speak to what I know.
Speaking of which, I want to correct myself and clarify that IR was the 7th power in Kinetics and not the 8th. Not that it's a big deal as it was only slightly more popular than Repel. (I liked them both.) My favorite use of IR was to buff newbies in Mercy with it to give them a taste of what a travel power was.
I don't really have an opinion about SJ vs IR. But I see the "you may not comment unless it is to agree with me" approach to threads all over the Internet, and I don't get it. It doesn't make your argument stronger, let me leave it at that.
Captain of Phoenix Rising
Thanks for the comment buddy, i'll cherish it forever.
SJ was a power anyone could get early in their career. It was a "realistic" power in that once you jumped you had limited control apart from when to end the jump. Also with SJ you didn't suffer much Falling Damage (although I may be wrong on this point?).
All Travel powers had "realistic: effects
- Flight made you glide for a bit when stopping - there was no "stop on a dime".
- Teleport made you fall after 2-3 secs and you had to point/click where you wanted to TP.
- SS made anything more than a chest-high wall a pain.
This shows that all Travel powers were balanced.
IR gave you more mid-jump controls but that was a T7 power so you had to be at a mid to high level to unlock it - plus you HAD to have that powerset.
Now there is the OPTION that CoT MAY allow more powerful Travel Powers that we chose as we level up. MAYBE we get SJ1 at low levels, then we can upgrade with a power pick to get SJ2 and then SJ3 and each is better than before.
There was talk that every X levels CoT will grant a Travel Power pick and that can chose ONLY Travel powers. IF they do this then again you could either go from SJ1>SJ2 or pick Tunneling1 so you have two Travel powers.
Psycho this is a discussion forum for ideas to be discussed and talked about with ideas and feedback on those ideas flowing freely.
If you don't want other ideas or people to disagree with you you will need to make your own forum and have that in the Forum Rules for all Posts. Just like I cant make everyone be considerate when walking in public you cant make everyone behave as you want them to in a public forum.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Again, I think if there's any argument to be made here, it is the defense of "bad" travel powers in terms of their right to exist, side by side, next to the "good" ones. I mean, sure SJ would be strictly better if it had inherent IR, but the fact that it didn't made two good things happen: 1. it made Super Jump look, feel, and do what most people would expect a power called "Super Jump" to look like, feel like and do. It also made IR a good power in it's own right, as a way of improving your own or someone else's travel abilities. Kinetics had a lot of that. Speed Boost made you move faster in addition to being awesome in other ways, Increase Density made you harder to mez in some ways, etc. This gave the buff side of Kinetics some super-powered goodness of its own. I mean, who DIDN'T like speed boost (answer: people with low frame rates... ).
Saying "All superjump powers should have inherent IR because that makes it better, so why not, who wouldn't want that?" is a true statement, but not a compelling reason to make SJ have inherent IR all the time, to me. You could easily make the argument that "and you should get to jump in the air with vertical altitude control and never come down until you choose to come down, because that's better too." and then it wouldn't be Super Jump, it would be Flight.
In a game, if a guy activates a power called "Shoot Gun" by pulling out a 357 Magnum and pulling the trigger, we all will expect that a bullet will come out at great speed and put a hole in the target. If the gun shoots ice or fire or psionic energy, that might be better, but that power isn't "Shoot Gun" anymore, it should be called "Shoot Psy-gun" or whatever and it's a different power then. When a person jumps vast distances like the Hulk, for example, the assumption of most people is that he can't just change his mind mid-jump and make a 90-degree right turn, in mid air. I can see that happening if there's some OTHER superpower at work, but not just strictly from a power named "Super Jump" as I expect such to work.
And going back to my last post on here, it's actually more fun, more roleplay-immersive, and more interesting from a character build perspective to have multiple different travel powers that all behave somewhat differently with different advantages and disadvantages. I'll go as far as to GIVE you a SuperJump power that has inherent IR, call it "Magic Jump" or "Kinetic Jump" or whatever. But as a designer, I'd want to give people some reason why they might want to NOT take that one and take say "Winged Flight" or "Jet Pack" or something instead. Your "Awesome Super Best Jump" power would then probably be designed in such a way that you get more out of it, but you pay for that somehow. Maybe it's harder to unlock, or has different enhancements that go in it, or uses more endo, or you don't jump as high, or it needs more enhancements for speed because it's slower, etc. I would do this in order to make it flavorful and in order to make the question "So which travel power do I want" get an answer of "It depends..." rather than an obvious "well duh, you take Awesome Super Best Jump, because it's the best, everybody knows THAT" response.
That's how I'd want it as a player and how I'd do it if I were designing it.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
The only time Super Jump should be allowed to have more control over the directional descent is if you slot Flight Like enhancements. Now... instead of slotting Flight Like enhancements in Super jump, you could just slot Jump like enhancements... and not have much control over the angle of Descent, but be able to Jump much Higher / Farther. :)
Super Jump wasn't the best travel power, it was just the most well rounded--it wasn't best or worst at anything. They were balanced differently, with different strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I liked flight the best; it was the best in several ways [hoverblasting, breaking lines of sight in vertically stacked rooms, avoiding aggro while traveling through higher level zones, worked on autopilot for long trips, worked in all terrain types like the shadow shard/giant oranbega cave maps] and the worse in several ways [slowest, had more powers that disabled it].
I always felt bad for superspeed. It was slower than teleport, had the most trouble getting to hard to reach places, and, post travel suppression, had less combat utility than flight or super jump. It was good for ghosting missions, though.
I wouldn't mind having an IR like reduction available for superjump, although I feel like maybe making it an enhancement would be a better idea, so people could still get jumping that acts more like jumping unless they want the IR effect. Also, I would expect there to be an effort to balance the overall utility of the different travel powers, so a more effective superjump would probably lead to a more effective everything else. I am generally in favor of making travel powers better, but you have to figure out how to do it mechanics wise, and also consider the effect of making it too easy to get places and skip over what is going on in the open world.