He is way overpowered compared to the rest. At one point there were THREE Kryptonians in the League.
Supes is a character with no real weaknesses. Sure they invented Kryptonite to give villains a chance...but nothing else really stops superman. A Superman Level villain is nigh unstoppable.
The rest of the league are good solid heroes. They have strengths and normal weaknesses and none are as invulnerable as ol' Big Blue.
I love the super hero Original Characters. I first ran into them in COH and again at Deviant Art. in COH no one was overpowered. That's mostly true at DA, but there are DA Superman clones that irk me to no end. I collect OC in my favorites, but I refuse to take a Superman clone.
Clones at DA: I won't name them because this is just a rant...But essentially I see them as uncreative, Mary Sues made to be the best wherever they go.
Who can team/RP with an overpowered Mary Sue? Nothing ever hurts them, Every punch always hits/is an earth shattering kaboom.
I loved the X-Men because most of them were NOT bulletproof. and they were still bada$$.
To close, all I can say is, [b]thank goodness for the City of Titans.[/b] All hail the balance and the might Nerf. No Supermen in Titan city.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Superman fighting isn't the compelling part of his character. It's his compassion. Him punching the bad guy should be incidental to the emotional weight of what's happening.
Superman is compelling because he wants to save everyone. He wants the system to work and he wants everyone to be safe and better.
If you think Superman is boring because he has no physical weaknesses you have missed the entire point of his character.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Yeah that and he does have more physical weaknesses other than kryptonite, for a good while he had no protections against mental attacks until he started training his, sonic attacks can shred his eardrums to pieces due to his heightened hearing, he has no protections against magic and any magic attack would affect him like it would a human, radiation can screw him up pretty bad, and enough gravity control on him can get rid of his ability to fly, if he doesn't access to the earth's yellow sun then he slowly loses his powers. A lot of stuff can screw over big blue.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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On the surface, yes. There are other extremely powerful JL members, but their weaknesses are easier to come by. Doctor Fate? Go for the helmet. Martian Manhunter? Fire is very common and easy to come by. Heck, just lure him to a gas station. Wonder Woman? Literally anything that's sharp, even a pointy stick, or a regular stick that you split to make pointy, or a pen. Flash? Cold. Levitation. Mind. There are many ways to incapacitate a speedster.
However, when written poorly, almost every member of the JL has been a Mary Sue. Batman sometimes knows every skill and combat and science and engineering known to man. Given that many of these skills are in developing fields or require physical practice, he would need roughly 90 hours every day to keep up with that, assuming inhumanly perfect eidetic memory. He's also shown complete clairsentience and precognition in being "prepared" for something he's never encountered before and shouldn't have known existed, making him arguably more of a Mary Sue than Superman when poorly written. But, he's not alone. The Flash in many stories is even more OP than Superman with truly broken speed. Use cold, he'll vibrate through it (which makes no sense because it's still the lack of energy). Levitate him, he'll free himself by flailing (again, what?). Mind control? Nope, he'll just think really fast, which for some reason the person controlling his mind doesn't tell him not to do. One of the writers also decided at one point that Martian Manhunter, who can phase, become invulnerable, control minds, shapeshift, etc, should just not be vulnerable to fire anymore... just because. This isn't just a Superman problem.
That said: the point of Superman isn't if he'll win, but how. Meaning, can he stay true to his ideals even though victory might require something else? Can he identify with a world that he ages slower, that the people are "like cardboard" compared to him, and still not lose himself and become a tyrant. It is very much a story of a god trying to be a good mortal. Is that even possible?
In many ways Superman is the same as The Doctor. I don't just mean superficially... that they're both aliens who look like humans and chose Earth as their second home when their homeworld was presumed dead, or that their people were once noble but turned before the end, or that they both have a hard time relating with normal people and could potentially live forever.
What I mean is, the subtext of their stories are similar too. The Doctor can straight up be stabbed with a rusty shiv, sure, but still is immensely powerful. The Doctor has the power to erase your great grandparents from existence while they were infants, or trap you in a mirror, or leave you forever perpetually falling towards a black hole, or freeze you in time, but leave you conscious so you go insane for eternity but can do nothing about it, or destroy an entire space armada in a lazy afternoon using a phasing ship and hacked systems. Despite this, The Doctor constantly struggles to be "a good mortal" and not to use this beyond inter-galactic technology to become a god tyrant. Sure, it helps that Timelords can straight up be shot and can potentially run out of lives, as opposed to Superman's rail-gun-proof eyeballs, but the heart of their stories are basically the same. Superman is challenged again to be a "good mortal" whenever someone he cares about is threatened. The Doctor has to learn to be a "good mortal" anew with each regeneration, and every time risks becoming a god tyrant, hence the reluctance to regenerate.
Unfortunately, often times the writers don't use these sorts of characters for the character studies that make them interesting. Instead, they try to throw them into a typical adventure, which is where it falls apart. Also, since RP in online games is often centered around typical adventures and not complex character studies, I agree that a Superman/Doctor type wouldn't be the best choice there.
One of my favorite (at one point) titles to read was Supergirl. It's not a matter of how tough they are. It's about the character.
Hell, forget the weaknesses or strengths of a character, because, really, do you expect them to lose? :p
Also, if one is going to talk about unbeatable, I'd point to how one of the most beatable heroes out there (Batman) is always winning :p
DING DING DING
we have a winner!
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
It's just the way comics are. Take another nearly omnipotent being but in Marvel.. Silver Surfer. he can do pretty much anything, even create life in some cases, and arguably more powerful than almost any single Marvel Character, but I've seen him lose a battle to a magician who encased him in a bubble. He can essentially break all rules of time and space, teleport, and has strength comparable to Hulk, but he was trapped by a "magic bubble". As he was part of the defenders(not the netflix ones), he teamed with others that were seemingly close to his strength level, yet run of the mill enemies give them pause in some comics.
The problem is, the most powerful of characters need some kind of resistance, no matter how dumb it may seem or else there's no reason to write about them.
It's also why Batman is one of the most popular characters. He's "only human" yet he's able to overcome enemies way above his abilities. Granted we've only just seen this happen in films, despite him taking more of a diminished role in most fights, but in the overarching tone of being an "underdog" I think he's popular because he's way more relatable, even if few really can relate to a multi billionaire with seemingly endless resources that lost their parents in a back alley when they were kids.
In the new JL movie, Bats does fight less than the others.
Personally I think it's a flaw with many of the DC superheroes. They're all just too good, too perfect, always right, makes them unbearable and boring.
Overcoming flaws makes a hero, not having no flaws at all.
[color=red]PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team[/color]
I had a Marvel/DC crossover book that included Batman fighting Hulk. Of course Batman won. He did so by putting on a breathing mask (in the middle of a fight) and throwing down a sleeping gas pellet. The Hulk held his breath and Batman kicked him in the solar plexus, which caused Hulk to reflexively inhale the gas. He fell asleep and turned into Bruce Banner.
Okay... I know Batman is pretty strong, like an Olympic athlete. But Hulk can shrug off a tank shell to the face. I don’t care how “skilled” he is in combat, Batman can’t get through Hulk’s hide to hit any sort of nerve clusters or whatever with a kick. And if sleeping gas worked on Hulk then that’s what everyone would use on him rather than creating a huge military task force with heavy equipment just to try contain him when he goes on a rampage. I’m sure they thought about sleeping gas before inventing new kinds of tanks and robotic exoskeletons and whatever.
But he’s Batman and can do anything. I like Batman but sometimes DC treats him like the ultimate Mary Sue. At least Superman has a reason to beat everyone, he’s just that powerful. Batman’s greatest power is his real-world popularity among fans.
I am glad I never read that book. That's just terrible.
Batman just can't beat the Hulk without possibly using his own version of a Hulk-Buster Iron Bat suit :p
I never understood why people couldn't accept that Batman can be beat. Or at the very least, have him put on an Iron Bat suit when playing with the league. That can easily be explained away as, "It's to powerful to fight street crime"
I mean there is something to be said for the whole brains over brawn thing. That even without powers Batman can pull his weight alongside powered people because of smarts and ingenuity... But then there's usually super geniuses on the team, like the Atom, Mr. Terrific, etc.
Batman being the brains of the outfit is fine when the team doesn't have smarter heroes around.
But even then sometimes you can't think your way around some problems, or you don't have time to. Which I guess they attempt to fix the latter part of the problem by having Batman already have a plan for everything. Which is dumb.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Batman is one of the least believable superheroes.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I did a Google search and found the end of the fight. It went pretty much how I remembered.
[img]https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/2532/2431543-batsbeatshulk.png[/img]
The Batman vs Hulk story is an example of the writer not being as smart as the character he is writing so it comes across as stupid.
Here is a better example of the Hulk being 'defeated' by someone much weaker than him who uses his brains. It's not a perfect example...just better.
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d89bf5b643cd5c5d62eba9924b77db07-c[/img]
I don't have a problem with Batman coming out on top vs the Hulk.I mean he has vs DC's version of the Hulk Solomon Grundy more than once after all. It's how poorly written it was.
In the end, the powers a character has are less interesting to me than the development of that character. What I mean is, the fact that Superman can punch people into orbit or how Batman is unrealistically prepared for anything is not as important as exploring how those things affect the choices the characters make, which is something DC is usually pretty good at.
Like Project_Hero said, Superman's powers and weaknesses are not the point, it's what motivates his actions. For those who haven't read it, I suggest checking out 'Kingdom Come' to see a very well written (and beautifully illustrated) story about the struggle it is to be Superman.
It's just how they portray the characters. Remember The Hulk died in the show from a giant rock. These comics were way before there was a glimpse of a World Breaker Hulk.
The TV show?
Cause Hulk died after falling from a plane in that. I mean I guess you could call the Earth a giant rock that killed the Hulk but I don't think that is what you meant.
But yes, power consistency hasn't ever been good in the superhero genre. Especially when dealing with different writers. That's why I think the powers and weaknesses of these characters are of much less importance than their motivations and actions.
There was an interesting (if a bit heavy handed) story where Batman and Superman switch powers. It lets the writers explore the psyche of the characters. As you might expect, Batman goes overboard and Superman isn't exactly upset with the situation. The point is, Batman is still Batman even though he is faster than a speeding bullet and can jump over tall buildings in a single bound.
What the heroes can do pales next to why they do it.
All true! Moral compasses, ethics, and motives are the things that drive characters. How they react to situations based on who they are on the inside, not just what they can do, is what makes a story good or bad. There are a lot of pretty weak characters that have more moxie than a lot of the “super” heroes.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
I remember the fall from the helicopter, but I thought that was a tv movie... I can't recall the whole crushed by boulder thing killing the hulk, but I need to look into it.. I remember that being a big scene in the show. It's been a long time haha
There were two cartoons, one where Superman takes over for batman when he goes missing, which is a great episode, and one where Batman finds himself on another planet where the sun there gives him the powers of superman, but I think it's Quartz that is batmans kryptonite? That was a cool idea, but I didn't particularly like the execution.
Yes it was a TV movie called The Death of the Incredible Hulk (1990 I think) which is a continuation of the Hulk TV series. Also It was actually an airplane not a helicopter. It is often remembered wrong because as the Hulk is falling in slow motion a helicopter is in the background.
You might be remembering the original Secret Wars comic series in which the Hulk and friends get an entire mountain dropped on them and the Hulk Holds it up long enough that the other heroes can escape. Other than that I honestly can't think of a time the hulk was 'killed' by a rock.
I am not sure I remember the first one but it easily could have been in the less impressive (and for me ultimately forgettable) Superman the Animated Series (from the mid 90's).
The second comes from Batman Brave and the Bold. That series was a throwback to the campy style of the Adam West Batman series and the comic run at the time. It was never meant to be anything more than a fun lighthearted show. I mean it had this guy called Hammertoes (complete with metal sticking from his toes) and there was even a crossover with Scooby Doo at one point. That show revisited all of Batman's worst stories and characters from the 60's and gave them a silly but fun treatment. For those who have not seen this show I do suggest it if for no other reason than to see the funniest version of Aquaman ever done.
But I was actually talking about the 4 part comic book story where Batman and Superman swap powers.
https://www.dccomics.com/comics/supermanbatman-2003/supermanbatman-53
Like I said, the story is a bit heavy handed and more than a little predictable but it does have some interesting dialogue and one hell of an amazing scene where you see the Justice League get it's ass beat by a superman without the same morality as Clark Kent.
It's not a 'must have' storyline like COIE or Watchmen but it is relevant to the OP's comment on what makes a comic character interesting. I was just offering an alternate take on the discussion. Or rather a broader take because Project_Hero's reply was pretty much perfect in it's succinctness.
Batman Brave and the Bold was awesome. It's probably my favorite Batman series. And yes, I have seen both BATAS and Batman Beyond.
I'd love to see a Batman miniseries with him and Jason Todd Robin, the flash back parts in Under the Red Hood were so good.
But back on topic, Superman is great. Best Supermen are Superman in Superman vs. the Elite and Superman in All Star Superman. There were also some good Superman bits in Superman Doomsday. That movie is a gem.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
While not my favorite series, it was fantastic at at taking the dumbest parts of Batman's past and making it a lot of fun. It poked fun at itself but never got annoyingly campy. It also, IMO, had one of the better animated series finales ever, I mean it actually managed to tug at ya emotionally if only a little.
I'm still partial to TAS mostly because it pretty much defined the modern Batman mythos, along with JL and JLU. The 'ever prepared' Batman that many here are decrying was defined in those series as well as the entire 'crime fighting is the mission and nothing matters but the mission' insanity. The series excelled at turning the more silly characters of Batman into modern and interesting archetypes. The Penguin became a fantastic crime lord, Clayface evolved throughout the series, Scarecrow stopped being goofy and became more terrifying, Scarface's insanity seemed more tragic than gimmick as well as giving us a more well rounded characters in Ra's Al Ghul and Mr. Freeze. This all in addition to the best Batman and Joker performances (Sorry, Christian Bale and Heath Ledger you guys are great but Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill were perfect IMO) and the invention of Harley Quinn (wonderfully portrayed by Arleen Sorkin). Bruce Timm's lead and art style coupled with Paul Dini's writing is unique in that they are able to adapt popular characters to a new medium while still staying true to the core of that character. Their influence will be felt for years as is evident by the obvious homage you see in Young Justice (which is finally getting it's 3rd season this year).
It's a shame that the live action DC movies seemingly are unable to understand these characters well enough to adapt and portray them. Batman doesn't crack wise and Superman doesn't brood. Superman is the eternal optimist, always looking for the best in everyone. Even the irredeemable. Batman doesn't see the good in people, he is always waiting for them to succumb to their baser instincts at which point he will pounce. At least that is how I see them.
Both Superman vs the Elite and All Star Superman were great. I still think Kingdom Come has the best depiction of Superman but when only discussing animated portrayals I gotta agree that All Star was amazing. I really didn't care for Doomsday much personally. I mean it's not bad, just not what I wanted. I did love both Superman Batman Public Enemies and Apocalypse. Both of those managed to explore the characters deeper than many other movies. Still I gotta say my two favorites are The Batman Superman Movie: World's Finest and Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. I am a complete fanboy of Dini and Timm.
Batman can crack wise but it should be a rare/unique occasion ("Did he just make a joke?")
Kingdom Come (I wish they'd make an animated movie of it) Superman was good, yeah.
Didn't much care for Apocalypse and Public Enemies personally.
World's finest and return of the joker were both great.
There's a new take on the Superman Doomsday thing coming out: Death of Superman, that may be more to your liking. I just hope it's good.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
What I meant was he shouldn't be littering his crime fighting with one liners like an 80's action star.
I guess, it's such a complex story that I fear it's execution.
I would be happy if these new DC movies just took a hint from it and understood that you can have a dark gritty Superman story without compromising the character. Use the morality of a situation to inject the dark and gritty, don't make Superman himself dark and gritty.
I will see it of course, but I just dislike the overwrought, predictable and melodramatic death/rebirth aspect of these stories so much that it taints any enjoyment I might have.
I also find Doomsday to be a fairly dull antagonist. They started out writing him interesting with an air of mystery, like a incomprehensible force of nature, but in less time than it took for him to be noticed he turned into a strongman with adaption abilities. It's a character that has no depth beyond it's powers and the story suffers for it IMO. The overly complicated origin that they came up with later does not help matters either.
Whoa whoa whoa. "Something is definitely bleeding." was a great one liner from Batman! :)
Yup, right up there with Storm's lightning/toad line. I love Whedon but sometimes his jokes just fall flat for me.
I will say the 'What's your superpower?' 'I'm Rich.' was pretty good.
I prefer this answer to the question of "What's your power"
[img]https://bicrunaway.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/tumblr_lnktw3u3p01qm57qio1_500.jpg[/img]
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I'll look into it, but the batman cartoon I was talking about was a batman TAS episode, though it was a newer one.. I think when they were doing the batman/superman adventures show. If you can find the whole episode it's one of my favorites. I'll have to look up the hulk rock thing. I don't think it was a comic, it certainly was really old though.
[youtube]wlcXA_iokPc[/youtube]
Ok, this episode is called Knight Time and it's from the Superman series like I thought. I don't think I have ever seen it but from what I have read it is considered one of the best episodes of that series.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0713563/?ref_=ttep_ep2
I'll check it out when I get a chance.
Hope you can find the rock hulk thing cause I have no idea what it is.
Didn't they also switch costumes in the World's Finest movie? I seem to remember they did.
Definitely not the same as switching powers though.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I'm a huge fan of Superman, a recent one too. For me I read Superman comics not for the fights, I have accepted Superman as being powerful beyond the scope of most other characters, but instead I read it for how he uses his great power to do good.
I think I see it a little too often that folks assume the purpose of a superhero is to overcome a physical challenge, thereby meaning Superman is a boring, overpowered character because his level of power dwarfs others to such a degree, but that's not exactly true.There are also those that might say Superman is unrelatable, and shouldn't be because he is a powerful alien from another planet, but I kinda have a problem with that too, and this sometimes falls in line with those that might say "Superman's only interesting when he's evil."
I apologise if I go on a bit of a rant here, I tend to get away from myself in certain topics.
So, the thing about Superman isn’t really about his power. There have been plenty of characters who were of great power that are relatable, whether they had that power from the beginning or had to earn it over time. Superman isn’t an exception here, and it’s kinda unfortunate that people want to see him as the bad guy so much. In fact, a part of me feels that a sizable portion of Superman hate is the word of mouth of others, being told that Superman is a dull, over powered character and just rolling with it. It kinda does a fair disservice to the character, and it’s a perception many writers given the task of producing media about the character might result in things going a little… grim.
In essence, when reading or watching superman, you just need to know that his character’s greatest weakness and complication isn’t a green rock or magic, but it’s his Moral Code. Superman is defined primarily by how he views the world and his role in it, a perception granted to him by his adoptive parents, the Kents. A lot of people will decry Superman for doing too little with his power, but that’s kind of a hang up he’s developed over time; human morality is a complex and fluid thing, an abstract concept that varies from person to person. Superman can change the world, but he can’t do so without compromising the individuality of humanity, the freedom of opinion and the like. I believe it was on supernatural where an Angel explains how “You can have freedom, or you can have peace, but not both.” Superman understands this, that making too big a change will just make more problems for everyone, and as tempting as it might be to pull an Injustice and forcibly change the world to follow a single, peaceful ideal, he wants the eventual uptopia humanity will achieve to be achieved by humanity, so he does what he can to set an example so that the world can be inspired to be better in their own way.
Imagine it, having the power to change everything and anything, with no fear of anyone stopping you, but knowing that if you do you could make things worse. In that same swing, the types of powers Superman has can only do so much, with people still dying despite his best efforts to stop that. In the pre-flashpoint comics, and in the original movie, Jonathan Kent dies of a heart attack, something Superman cannot prevent despite his immense power, and it's stuff that like that that pains him so much.
Superman’s personality stems from this Moral Code. He is kind and optimistic, and he goes out of his way to help anyone, be it putting his life on the line to save the world or even just being a shoulder to cry on. He works to inspire those around him into doing great things, and I for one find it remarkably uplifting that a being whose origins are completely alien to us, whose power dwarfs us to the point of insignificance will find that significance in us; someone who should be aloof, uncaring, simply beyond us will make it his core priority to see us safe and happy, growing in our own way. When you think about it, with how Superman lacks a connection to Krypton besides his blood, the world may question whether we need Superman, but I feel like Superman also kinda needs us, and considering how xenophobic and angry Krypton was before it blew up, and that Superman was built on the morals passed down by his human parents, I doubt that a kind of pride in his homeworld was the driving force of his superheroics.
That’s not to say Superman is a perfect literary character, and part of that I feel might be with his other weakness, being Kryptonite. I feel like there is the possibility you can write a decent Superman story without the application of Kryptonite. The thing about it is that it seems so contrived compared to other weaknesses that Superman has, and the way it works feels like it simply adds an artificial tension to a scene. Magic doesn’t need to be explained, and Red Sunlight seems like it could be created by someone of high enough intelligence, and while it takes his powers away it doesn't utterly disable Superman letting him try and figure a way out of the situation with guile. Kryptonite is a little too powerful, considering it utterly disables him; Batman using a chunk of Kryptonite, for example, isn't making the fight 'fair', it's actually stacking the odds in Batman's favour, as not only is Superman reduced to being a normal person but also so racked with pain he can barely function.
As for Superman in the league, well, there are still traits of him that actually need them. He needs peers in the superhero community to familiarise himself with, more people he can confide in when it comes to the difficulties or superheroics. Despite his ability to move faster than the speed of light, he can't be in multiple places at once, so he may need backup when dealing with certain situations, and the league allowing all heroes to communicate and more efficiently stop crime is never a bad thing.
I think a good Superman story to read should be 'What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?' or watching the animated adaptation 'Superman vs The Elite'. No kryptonite is used, and it perfectly illustrates the kind of character Superman is, especially when faced with a more modern way of thinking.
I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.
Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
As much I can laugh with pictures like this Justice League Mockup:
This:
This is what he is about. As much fun as it is to see him punch someone really in need; defining him only by that and his overall raw power is not understanding him.
Also: Has Batman not founded a 2nd Justice League (of America) specifically to show the people that everything is possible even without gods and aliens? (I'm not sure why he said this and shows Lobo as a member in the next panel but... well... probably because he's Batman).
AFAIK they did in an Superman TAS episode. Or rather Superman did on Robins request since Bats was not found for some reason. Banes worst day ever :P