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How or is this game still doing free to play after F2P's burned rep.

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LaughingAlex
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How or is this game still doing free to play after F2P's burned rep.

Title says it all. So many free to play titles actually resorted to predatory practices over the years aimed at the especially vulnerable, that laws were passed somewhere along the line, although aimed at the wrong crowd and actually damaging more legitimate developers. Whats everyones stance on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtXyv0Q1Eg

I recall most everyone to watch this series, or many do, but I wanted to bring this up here because of just how bad of a reputation free to play has gotten over the years. From "Pay to win" to general predatory tactics(often, a combination of the two), free to play became dark and infamous that now laws are starting to creep up specifically aimed at such games.

Edit: I also wanted to bring this up because of how a certain game I played(and mentioned it's main problems here before) had gone down such a path of generally predatory behavior. And then a few days ago this video was posted.

I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.

Radiac
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My opinion on this, having

My opinion on this, having thought about it a lot, is that, for me, a monthly sub makes the most sense and is not a problem at all. That said, I know, as it has been pointed out in many places, that many, many teenagers would like to play a game like CoT and cannot, by themselves, supply a credit card for a sub.

I've also played the grand-daddy of all "free to play, but more expensive over time than paying a sub, mua-ha-ha!" games, namely Magic Online, for a while. The almost constant need to buy more product that that system imposes upon people to keep up with the rotating Standard format, coupled with the Booster Draft format and the fact that it uses "Event Tickets" as an ad hoc (currency like cigarettes in prison) makes it a gawdawful money machine for WotC, I have to assume.

If I were a parent, I would much rather pay for my kids to play CoT with me than let them have their own Magic Online accounts on my credit card. At least then I know how much money per month I'm spending.

I feel like if they could keep the monthly sub at like $10/month, it couldn't be all that onerous. I feel sorry for the kids who can't play in that case, but I dislike the predatory BS and I'm not sure the F2P games can survive and make a profit without it. I mean, you're competing against those shady games which do take advantage of the easily manipulated in the same marketplace, and the only rule of that particular jungle is, the shark who makes the most money, by hook or by crook, wins.

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Empyrean
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Hasn't it already been stated

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it already been stated that CoT is going to be Buy to Play with your choice of Sub option or a non-pay-to-win Cash Shop with mostly cosmetic and QOL items? I think that's a pretty elegant way to toe the line so as to get good revenue with as little cash shop evil as possible.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Nyktos
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It's been mentioned before

It's been mentioned before yes. More akin to Guild Wars 2 payment model (unless they changed it)

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TheMightyPaladin
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Been mentioned before but

Been mentioned before but come on this forum has been around a long time and we really can't expect new people to read through 10,000 old posts to know what's been said before. Just tell them what you know without beat them over the head with "It's been said before", as if they shouldn't be bothering you with this question.
We're going to get repetition after so long a time.
So long a time.
When oh when with the game be playable?
I'm getting old waiting for it.

Zekna
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My take on this - I have

My take on this - I have experienced both pay to play and free to play games. I would have to say that I have spent more money on a free to play game than a pay to play. That being said I have still purchased items off the store even when I was paying for the sub. Either way you are going to have people pay for both or pay for one or the other.

If the game is worth putting money into it then I would probably continue with what I am doing by paying for both the sub and spending in the store. Besides putting money into the game keeps it going.

It is more expensive depending on the persons choice. If they choose to spend the money then that is their decision and it supports the company to continue with what they are doing. If you have a problem with it then stop spending money. I have spent almost 1 grand within a month on Rift because of how well they made their system. I noticed how it was affecting me so I had to use a little bit of self-control and not spend money, plus it was getting boring. You also have to think the business side of it, we need the money to hire employees to release content sooner and we get the money from the player base, in turn we make a system that people will like and will be willing to spend money on because of the quality of the game.

All I'm really saying is that if they do a subscription rout only they will lose a lot of players over it because the people WANT free to play games. That's why ESO had lost a lot of players at the beginning was because they went that rout of subscription only. Now it is free to play with an in game cash shop and they are getting a higher player base.

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Redlynne
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ESO did a lot of things wrong

ESO did a lot of things wrong at launch. I know ... I was there.


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Empyrean
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TheMightyPaladin wrote: We're
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

We're going to get repetition after so long a time.
So long a time.
When oh when with the game be playable?
I'm getting old waiting for it.

Yes, they need to step up the pace making a AAA level game for all of US to play on just a bit more than 1/6th the normal budget and with a largely volunteer staff in, oh, about half the time that a fully funded professional studio would expect to realistically get it done.

And, in keeping with the thread topic, they picked a perfect funding model with buy-to-play with an optional subscription and non pay-to-win cash shop. So, there's that.

But WHAT is keeping those lazy bones from coughing up the game they are making for us to enjoy?

I just can't imagine.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Zekna
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Redlynne wrote: ESO did a
Redlynne wrote:

ESO did a lot of things wrong at launch. I know ... I was there.

I was too, I also played beta so I know all about that XD

Zekna, Black Mana Guardian. (sewer power leveler)

islandtrevor72
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The type 'predatory'

The type 'predatory' monetization that online games use (not just f2p) is hardly unique. Its been used and perfected by every type of Business imaginable. From casinos to travel agents....even the current cult of the Prius engage in forms of predatory practice. Schools have even shown they are not above it with the recruitment on athletes.

Its easy to point the finger and blame the companies for the problems, but its seldom that simple. The ones hurt by these practices are the ones susceptible to them. Yes the predatory companies target these individuals and that makes them morally guilty. Its the laws themselves that are the issue....laws that simply do nothing to discourage or even hinder this practice.

Most protective laws against this practice have only hurt those who are not preyed upon and businesses that don't engage in predatory practices. They are either toothless and easily circumvented or are draconian and destroy the honest business while limiting personal freedom. Whats more, those who are preyed upon seldom get the help they need until the damage is done because the laws are not designed to help victims but focus on punishing perpetrators.

Currently new laws are starting to be passed that focus more on transparency that prevention. Companies are starting to be required to present pro and con evaluations to clients as well as business history and practices. These laws are still in infancy and require a bit more oversight to be effective but I think this is a step in the right direction for a free market.

Sadly online gaming will probably be the last to benefit from these new laws as they are unique in what is being sold. Intangible consumables such as expendable weapons, IGC boosts ect, are the biggest cash sink online games have but by their very nature are not properly defined in law. Still classified as separate software purchases which means any refund requests is a separate request. That is a HUGE deal in the legal arena. The fact that these purchases disappear upon purchase and the fact they have no real world value (by law) makes any kind of legal action improbable.

Once the law catches up with the concept of intangible consumables and online gaming requires transparency coupled with oversight, then f2p will become a safer and less suspect option.
Until then the only thing we can hope for is an honest company and responsible players.

TheMightyPaladin
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I wasn't criticizing anyone

I wasn't criticizing anyone just venting my sadness and frustration.
I really am beginning to wonder if I'll ever be able to play this game.
I really am getting old and my eyesight isn't what it was.
There is a real possibility, that I might not be able to play by the time it's ready.

I'm sad.

Empyrean
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I understand, and also what I

I understand, and also what I wrote might have come across harsh when in my head it was just teasing. Needed more smileys :P.

Anyway, they really are going to hit a tipping point where the pace picks up considerably, it's just a matter of when.

Also, with the forethought they are putting into accessibility, maybe they can make a high-contrast mode with enlarged HUD text for those with impaired vision?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

TheMightyPaladin
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how do you put smileys in

how do you put smileys in forum posts?

islandtrevor72
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Like this

Like this
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
:P

Fireheart
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TheMightyPaladin wrote: How
TheMightyPaladin wrote:

How do you put smileys in forum posts?

Some people have smileys that they host on an image-sharing site and then paste the code into their posts. Check out ChristopherRobin and Darth Delicious in the Media/Arts section for some examples.

Be Well!
Fireheart

WraithTDK
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Just about every MMO is more

Just about every MMO is more or less F2P these days. Despite the negative connotations, it's par for the course now; and I don't think anyone's going to doubt the quality of COT just because it uses a business model similar to games like World of Warcraft.

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Except that World of Warcraft

Except that World of Warcraft is not free to play, unless you count the trial accounts that only let you go up to (currently) one fifth of the maximum level. If you want the whole game, it's buy the box and pay a subscription, and be prepared to buy an expansion pack every couple of years...
Of course, as the 800 ton dragon on the block, they have the development budget to keep cranking out material...

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Zekna
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WraithTDK wrote: Just about
WraithTDK wrote:

Just about every MMO is more or less F2P these days. Despite the negative connotations, it's par for the course now; and I don't think anyone's going to doubt the quality of COT just because it uses a business model similar to games like World of Warcraft.

lol the only business model that wow does is it is free to play up to lvl 20 and after that you HAVE to subscribe. I know I play it lol.

The business model I would suggest is something more along the lines of Rift and how they do their stuff.

Zekna, Black Mana Guardian. (sewer power leveler)

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With the store I mean.

With the store I mean.

Zekna, Black Mana Guardian. (sewer power leveler)

islandtrevor72
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Check out the dev section or

Check out the dev section or just click here
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/dusting-forum
Tyche goes into the games business model a bit there. He is planning to unlock the reply so we can discuss it there but hasn't yet.

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Arenanet has done pretty well

Arenanet has done pretty well with the by the box, pay for goodies model. Twice in fact with Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. Honestly, when I was playing it hard for the first two years, I would have loved a subscription that gave me a stipend of gems and a few extra goodies every month.

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LaughingAlex
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islandtrevor72 wrote: Check
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Check out the dev section or just click herehttp://cityoftitans.com/forum/dusting-forum
Tyche goes into the games business model a bit there. He is planning to unlock the reply so we can discuss it there but hasn't yet.

Sorry if I hadn't replied earlier, as I tend to spend 90% of my time on the titan forums. I read a lot of the posts here, and am glad Tyche has started a thread here. He's right about the temptation to cut corners, you see this a lot in quite a few free to play games. Hell, one game many don't like to speak of in the titan forums absolutely went down that path and the amount of corners they cut is unreal anymore. It also gives them a very bad business rep.

Which once it happens, they end up staying in that path and it gets hard to get out of. Even more-so if 'pay to win' happens. Once it does, the developer is trapped. We saw what happened in CO, for example, when they nerfed vehicles excessively(vehicles being a store exclusive) to try and curb the feelings of it. They lost over half their player base overnight due to trolls rubbing it in and the general feelings of being conned.

In a way, the kind of corner cutting free to play but pay to win games, whale exploitative games and the predatory ones can often be seen morally declining like Walter White did in breaking bad. It starts out small at first, as Tyche says, but then explodes and falls down the wrong path.

Hell free to play is broken as it is with the whale path that EC posted earlier, they didn't mention the negative backlashes for the company rep. Or how difficult/dangerous it is to back out(older video fyi):

I'd happily discuss it in his thread or a discussion thread.

I realized something today(5/8/2014) that many MMORPG players, are not like us who enjoyed CoX. They enjoy repetitiveness and predictability, rather then unpredictability. We on the other hand enjoy unpredictability and variety.

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Many of the issues that both

Many of the issues that both these videos bring up have a limited scope in discussions about MMOs.
They tend to apply to MoBA, mobile games and first person shooters. These are games are designed around the concept of instant gratification and the subsequent denial of that instant gratification. This second video you present is very much correct that the business model the developers program directly into the game specifically target certain aspect of the human condition in the most exploitative way possible.
The most exploitive and sadly profitable present the game as a free model and your first experiences in those games tend to support that concept. It is not until the game is played for a while that you meet your first true 'denial' in terms of experience and the real money way to remove this 'denial'. Once you pay for the right to ignore this 'denial' of experience you are able to play for a slightly shorter period before you meet your next 'denial'. These periods between 'denials' progressively get shorter and shorter requiring more and more investment of real world money to get the same experience you got when you first began.

That said, my original post still outlines what I consider to be issues and the resolution of them.

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I hardly think they plan to

I hardly think they plan to turn us in "Whales".

A buy to play with subscription options seems ideal. But it needs backing up with things like a trial that gives enough content to get people interested, a version you can buy in that gives players just enough of a leg up to make it worth it (the buying giving you some play time seems ideal, maybe also some claimable travel powers or similar), an easy way to pay (I stopped playing everquest 2 for 6 months because I didn't use a credit card and they would only accept subscriptions at that point via credit card or paying an extra £3 quid a month via paypal and only got back into it when I worked out how to use steam to do it).

An option to acquire "gift codes" or similar might also be an interesting option, letting people buy access time for their friends, contests, etc. But that opens the whole issue of people selling these for in game currency which can lead to massive in game inflation (and I always liked CoH didn't do that).