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How NOT to do a superhero MMO

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Ktzza
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How NOT to do a superhero MMO

Firefly of Phoenix Rising

jag40
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Yeah, that is the problem

Yeah, that is the problem with building a game with established super heroes. How do you make them not over powered like they are supposed to be and are in their comic while not making them get beat up by petty thieves which the guy in the article made a good point. Hulk would have made their internals turn to soup with a flick. The other side though, play hulk, you'll run into nearly 100 more but even give players customization, all the options in the world, there seem to be a group that still will insist on making things like Hulk and still will run into a great many of them. Which begs the question, do people really want customizations or do they really just want to recreate their favorite comic hero? While in most games it's supposedly illegal, it seems depending on the game, it's mostly a laxed enforced rule and only do a then amount to make it look like legally they are not encouraging clones...until they get a cease and desist order from the owner of the IP then they go on a rampage enforcing the rule. Maybe instead of reporting clones to the mods which probably will do nothing, report it to the IP owners. But then the legal aspect is why many game makers don't delve too much into customization because it takes work to ensure those group of people are not merely making clones of someone else IP. Then if ya give them pre made options, it irks the people that want to customize. In a way in games with customization, the players themselves make it seems risky because people make clones, and people that don't make clones that ignore them don't realize they are hurting themselves because it make it seems cloning is acceptable and more people do it, and make it a risk for the game makers to provide deep customization options especially if they get laxed themselves or depend on only player report. Because more than likely when it gets down to it, the player wont get sued but the game makers, and that money probably will affect the game with customization option's budget and risk it being closed (WorseCaseScenario).

Number 4- Yeah kill stealing the likes is usually not against the rules but is annoying and immersion breaking. I guess one way to solve that problem is that enemies targeted and or aggroed by the player cannot be attacked by players. And if another player indeed "wanted to help" they can always be asked. Although that excuse is usually used as a shield by kill stealers in fact most just wanted to steal that kill and or show off how awesome they are. But without mechanics, it's more a social problem/ While it would be nice for other players to have some semblance of respect, it's a pipe dream to expect that type of behavior across the board.

#2-definately especially with super hero stuff. Seem like they sometimes they go too far with shoving the social aspect down the throat and talk about sticking to lore and sticking with how super heroes are supposed to be and realism while conviently forgetting that most super heroes in their lore mostly work, ALONE. Now, the villain that the Hulk fought many comic issues and movies alone and prevailed, now it's required you must get a few batmans, a Green Lantern, and three more hulks to even stand a chance or even get the mission.

And an addition-I think super hero mmos sometimes forget you are playing a super hero. IN a certain one, it seemed the focus is playing through everybody's and their momma's contact storyline and barely any missions that focus on the plight and adventures of the player's hero. It's nice to know the nice old lady lost her magic ring and need it back because her daughter or something gave it to her. But in all what does that have to do with the player or their war on crime? It's nice to know and uncover the background on some police contact that used to be a cape but again, what does that have to do with the player or their progress? There is not enough especially in games with a bunch of customization where the player can build their own hero and stuff but in game in story progression, it seems the game maker make it all near irrelevant by having to play though every contact story but none focus on the player. Instead of feeling heroic or something it felt like "good job, now bill in the next map over wants you to uncover his background. and solve what is bothering him." It's like I have to go seek out villains rough them up and tell them to leave the contact alone. Instead of uncovering villain plots that they are trying to kill me or build a super weapon that may cause some damage that goes beyond some contact's selfish problems.

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Superhero Genre MMO's

Superhero Genre MMO's

You make some interesting points in your post.

Customization will always carry risk. People can't seem to resist trying to recreate those favorites they hold dear. It just goes with the territory. Personally I would rather have the risk and make it clear to the community that IP infringement is not tolerated than reduce the flexibility of the system to prohibit it. I also feel it is better to simply force name changing to those that outright use names they shouldn't (i.e. Batman). Like the next time they log in they are forced into a change the name or delete scenario which may seem harsh but if it is truly infringement then there is little argument to be made. Alternately, if they believe they are not infringing on any IP then there should be a way for players to refute the challenge. Then their character will simply remain unplayable until company reps have had a chance to scrutinize the character and make a final decision. Of course for the sake of protecting all I would imagine the choice would nearly always fall in favor of deleting the character. I'm afraid this pretty much falls into the category of, it is what it is, like it or not. Personally, I prefer to create my own self branded characters, I just like that kind of creativity.

Kill stealing I have always thought was a rather rudimentary issue to resolve but I may be completely wrong. The idea of an algorithm for establishing the degree of involvement made by each player attacking a single target seems like a simple numbers game. I'll elaborate... Player A has done some degree of damages and spent some amount of time attacking target X. Player B comes in and “helps” Player A retire target X. Each has invested some amount of combat time, damage, and number of attacks, etc. Given enough time to work the algorithm unless I'm missing some important considerations then simply adjust the doled out experience points based on the percentage of participation. So yeah the kill stealer gets some experience but only a small fraction compared to the player that did the work getting that target so close to the defeat. I'm thinking this would allow for a better representation of the people that truly are trying to “help” someone other versus the true XP stealer. If there isn't any experience/drop rewards for the steal they are less likely to do it. A little tough to work out the mechanic but I think possible.

I also like the idea of story lines or arcs that center around the characters you play more than simply including the name in NPC scripts like so many MMO's do.

One of my favorite parts of COH was making bios for my characters. A unique name isn't all that hard to do for me. The storyline behind your character, now that was real fun. flavor came from. Some of the best bios I've ever seen for custom characters were in COH. I wonder how hard it would be to develop an algorithm to pick keywords out of the bio and develop a story arc say three missions around it. Just think of the immersion it would give to players to start a new character from scratch make the bio up and then the first couple of missions were catered to them like playing out their own origin story. Difficult at best I'm sure but what a great idea if it could be pulled off.

Expanding on that what about teaming up with your Super Group or maybe a crossover arc with someone you just met playing and both of you have the time to do a short “Team-up” arc. Like the one offs you use to see all the time in comics. There could easily be a number of generic team-up arcs developed and then the lore from that encounter could be incorporated into the rewards as some form of trophy for each players base of operations or something.

These are just thoughts. I can't help but imagine how many cool ideas there are to try to incorporate into an MMO. Many of which I'm not sure have been done successfully before.

"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle

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I agree with the IP

I agree with the IP infringment thing. I rather have the customization offerings and make it clear that that IP infringement is not tolerated , not only buried deep in some EULA, like some MMOs makers do it, but by action. Some names that are abvious Copyright infringements should nt even be allowed and should be blocked even before exiting the character creator, like certain obscene words. Then if they do make it in game and it comes to attention, then actions and investigation should be placed swiftly. If's if xxxHuulkxxx with big green dude and purple pants and even copied bio, that obviously should be genericed and they shouldnt be allowed to walk around for months upon months reports upon reports un Marverl C&D hits the desk. It's not really fair to even the rule breaker, although they shouldnt be breaking the rules in the first place, to get to near top level and lose the character all of a sudden.
And yeah, a refrute process. A sleect few might have actually asked permission. You'd be surprised of what Marvel and DC will simply say "sure go ahead, buddy." if people stop trying to get over and simply asked persmission properly. I seen one guy get genericed but her actually asked Marverl to use a lesser known character. He went through a bit to get his character back and a few people wonderign how he get ot walk around with the obvious rip off, but come ot find out, he actually contacted Marvel, asked for permission, told them he wanted to makea charcter in such and game using such and such character, they said yeah and he went. But using without permission is same thing as taking without permission and taking without permission is stealing and stealing is a crime whether somone gets hurt or not. Enforcement is key.

The picking of he key words, I woundt imagine it would be too hard, even excel does it.

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To be fair, despite what that

To be fair, despite what that article claims, Marvel Heroes isn't an MMORPG. It's an Action Game, like Diablo 2 (and built by one of the Diablo 2 creators). Lots of Action Game conventions would be silly in a RPG, and vice versa. Heck, the conventions of an MMORPG like City of Heroes are hardly compatible with tabletop RPGs -- try persuading your GM you want to spend hours defeating hordes of Council Empire soldiers for drops. Different animals.

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Sailboat wrote:
Sailboat wrote:

To be fair, despite what that article claims, Marvel Heroes isn't an MMORPG. It's an Action Game, like Diablo 2 (and built by one of the Diablo 2 creators). Lots of Action Game conventions would be silly in a RPG, and vice versa. Heck, the conventions of an MMORPG like City of Heroes are hardly compatible with tabletop RPGs -- try persuading your GM you want to spend hours defeating hordes of Council Empire soldiers for drops. Different animals.

yeah. Although farming isnt neccesarily a product of Role Playing per se.

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I think the biggest problem

I think the biggest problem in Spuerhero games can best be summed up by a quote from The Incredibles: "When everyone is super, noone will be." Basically, when everyone hits cap, it'll be trite to be a super hero. We need a reincarnation system of some sort. Maybe Legacy characters, like Batman or Robin or the Green Lantern or something? You pass down the title of whichever hero you are, rerolling to a different class and gaining a minor boost based on the class you just rerolled from called "Legacy: [Whatever class you just rerolled from]" These bonuses persist, and when you've done all the classes, you get the "Great Legacy" boost, which is either purely cosmetic or a much more spread out minor boost than the dedicated ones based on class. If additional classes are added, the "Greater Legacy" boost comes into play, and so on.

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Nah. The problem with them

Nah. The problem with them (that only 2 worked to fix.. DCUO and CoH) is finding more things to do once you hit the cap. DCUO continually has new arcs and events for virtually every month which breaks from the monotony (if there is any besides how easy the game is for most of the missions..) and CoH... well damn we all know how CoH worked. I can honestly say I never got bored in it and never ran out of things to do.

CO greatly suffers from a huge lack of things to do, especially in endgame.

But then again, it's also a problem of a lot of MMOs today.. especially free ones.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

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Yeah, but you won't feel

Yeah, but you won't feel powerful at cap if you're only one of, say, five thousand others on the server. Also, it means that the devs are more likely to add more content for low to mid level characters, which will also entice newer players to the game. It also means you can get more use out of the game as a whole, and it means you're required to play and learn playstyles that you're not used to in order to get 100% within the game.

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Another big thing is that

Another big thing is that lack of endgame content is only noticable to people not trying for 100%, and the devs get time to add more in whilst everyone's getting maxxed out.

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Zanton wrote:
Zanton wrote:

Yeah, but you won't feel powerful at cap if you're only one of, say, five thousand others on the server.

Isn't the whole point of playing a MMO that there will be many other players?

If you gauge how powerful your character feels by how many others can do what you can do, and you want a character who feels powerful, then a MMO is the last place you'll want to be. Find another reason to play such a game or I can only predict disappointment for you.

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Zanton
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Zanton wrote:
Yeah, but you won't feel powerful at cap if you're only one of, say, five thousand others on the server.

Isn't the whole point of playing a MMO that there will be many other players?
If you gauge how powerful your character feels by how many others can do what you can do, and you want a character who feels powerful, then a MMO is the last place you'll want to be. Find another reason to play such a game or I can only predict disappointment for you.

This is the point of an MMO, and it's completely what I expect. However, I'd rather there weren't five thousand people running about with Superman-esque power levels, each and every one relegated to saving people from muggers when they could easily rip the planet in half. It's stupid and unrealistc (he says when discussing the superhero genre, I know, but still, internal realism) and besides, large ammounts of end game content and no ability to use your already acquired spoils on a new life encourages powering through the story and ignoring any mid or early game content. A good content distribution encourages people to take their time and play through the story at their pace, and the ability to NG+, effectively, encourages people to keep playing again and again, thus earning MWM a lot of money and keeping the game in use, thus keeping the servers open.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Zanton wrote:
Yeah, but you won't feel powerful at cap if you're only one of, say, five thousand others on the server.

Isn't the whole point of playing a MMO that there will be many other players?
If you gauge how powerful your character feels by how many others can do what you can do, and you want a character who feels powerful, then a MMO is the last place you'll want to be. Find another reason to play such a game or I can only predict disappointment for you.

True ideally the reason people play MMO is for the other players. But more and more I'm finding people really not playing to be social but more that the style of game an MMO offer cant really be found in other format stand alone yet.

Unfortunately I think rude people, and people acting stupid, snobby in MMO is starting to take it's toll, While people used to consider playing with people as a good part of the experience, now more and more people consider it merely a necessary evil. Because the ranks of the "fools" are increasing while those that are not fools are not helping and either encourage the behavior or shrug and do nothing about it...until it happens to them, but by then that "fool" gave bad experience to 30 off people at least already.

Eventually someone will build a MMO that is stand alone single player (probably where other players are optional) and traditional MMOs outside the powerhouses will be in grave trouble unless the most visible of the mmo crowd get their act together and act a bit more civilized.

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Zanton wrote:
Zanton wrote:

This is the point of an MMO, and it's completely what I expect. However, I'd rather there weren't five thousand people running about with Superman-esque power levels, each and every one relegated to saving people from muggers when they could easily rip the planet in half. It's stupid and unrealistc (he says when discussing the superhero genre, I know, but still, internal realism) and besides, large ammounts of end game content and no ability to use your already acquired spoils on a new life encourages powering through the story and ignoring any mid or early game content. A good content distribution encourages people to take their time and play through the story at their pace, and the ability to NG+, effectively, encourages people to keep playing again and again, thus earning MWM a lot of money and keeping the game in use, thus keeping the servers open.

Clearly we could debate how far realism can and should extend in MMOs, but that's not going to advance the point one way or another.

I agree that adding new content in the early to mid levels is important, especially given how many people in CoH had alts (I dreaded actually making villain alts because, after the second or third time through, the first three zones of the Rogue Isles were dullsville). So long as there is some kind of level adjustment this could also be interesting for those people who are not inclined to have multiple characters.

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Darth Fez<p>Clearly we could
Darth Fez wrote:

Clearly we could debate how far realism can and should extend in MMOs, but that's not going to advance the point one way or another.
I agree that adding new content in the early to mid levels is important, especially given how many people in CoH had alts (I dreaded actually making villain alts because, after the second or third time through, the first three zones of the Rogue Isles were dullsville). So long as there is some kind of level adjustment this could also be interesting for those people who are not inclined to have multiple characters.

Oh god, don't remind me. I ran one of everything for a bit in order to decide what to play for my actual character. Bored senseless of all the starting zones for CoH and CoV

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I think a Superhero MMO

I think a Superhero MMO should have one feeling to be about the level of Spider-Man, SpiderGirl, Wolverine, X-23, Gambit, Jubilee. Content can have a difficulty slider, one can build to solo the higher difficulty or not and use a lower diff, or team.

Then add in the cosmic level threats. The Galactuses, the Godzillas etc etc. Basically content that is all about those heroes previously mentioned, teaming up! If one wants to be weaker Power Pack level heroes, it's possible. Those who want to play Superman level, well, they'll have to stick to RPing it or living with just writing it in their bio.

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Thanks to this thread and

Thanks to this thread and that rediculous review I have thrown 120 bucks at that game. The new loki character is the closest feeling I have found to an MM, it plays a lot like an MM in bg mode.

Having said that it also plays like Diablo 2 and I don't feel a need to team at all.
But it's still great to have something to tide me over till the true successor comes out.

__

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-The wiseman.

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Heck, if the objective in

Heck, if the objective in this thread is t explore "How NOT to do a superhero MMO," then my suggestion is: Make everyone do one playstyle that the lead developer likes best, whether it's pvp, pve, character stories, badges/achieves/collectibles, etc.

The things that allowed me to play CoX constantly was (1) the variety of content that supported different player preferences, (2) radio/newspaper missions where I could pretend the reason for the mission was whatever I wanted for RP purposes, (3) the sidekicking system where I could play with my friends with any character at more or less any level, and (4) the opportunities to try out different things as a hero or villain.

That might be a tall order for a newly developed game, but at least MWM goes into it knowing what's possible.

A Wing and a Prayer, A Strong, Strong Wind, All Forests are One, Power Struggles - Venture City metahuman novels in the spirit of City of Heroes and other comic book superhero fiction. (http://bit.ly/sdpbooks)

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Another thought: I've now

Another thought: I've now played a number of MMOs, and I am struck (again) by how rare the CoX system was where gear did not matter.

The THEME of being a superheroic game trumped gear, even as enhancements and inventions allowed us to tweak ourselves and (in some cases) collect and craft to our heart's content. I hope we keep that concept, because a hero should be dependent on her conceptual powers--the character theme--and not on constantly upgrading the toolbox of trinkets hanging from her utility belt.

A Wing and a Prayer, A Strong, Strong Wind, All Forests are One, Power Struggles - Venture City metahuman novels in the spirit of City of Heroes and other comic book superhero fiction. (http://bit.ly/sdpbooks)

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Kartanian wrote:
Kartanian wrote:

Another thought: I've now played a number of MMOs, and I am struck (again) by how rare the CoX system was where gear did not matter.

The funny part of this statement is, while people said this on the CoH forums, there were people who thought gear did matter because they felt they couldn't keep up with those with IOs, nevermind none of the content in CoH required anything more than SOs and possibly a team.

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I really like the idea of

I really like the idea of being able to re-incarnate my capped hero. Sort of like a New Game + mode. Maybe it's just small inherit bonuses to my powers (read: training level enhancement or less), or maybe as a re-incarnate I gain a new "power pool" set to choose powers from. Maybe it's just a small bonus to XP earned for all members I'm teamed up with. Just some type of reward for having hit max, and to show that my character *was* someone very powerful, and some remnant of that remains but nothing that truly unbalances the game because of it.

It's totally my choice if I want to do this. And when I do, and I hit the cap again, it's my choice again to start over or keep playing at max. The option makes for great RP and story lines, and why your character can suddenly be vulnerable to their old villains. And speaking of which, how much fun can the writers have with that?

"In the last battle with her nemesis, the heroine was forced to reincarnate. Unbeknownst to her, her nemesis survived and saw the re-incarnation and he is now pumping his resources into taking her down now that she is in a weakened state."

This flexibility also gives content creators more reasons to add content *throughout* the game. It's not just for new comers. It lets players keep using this persona that they've gotten attached to and explore the new content, over and over again.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Kartanian wrote:
Another thought: I've now played a number of MMOs, and I am struck (again) by how rare the CoX system was where gear did not matter.

The funny part of this statement is, while people said this on the CoH forums, there were people who thought gear did matter because they felt they couldn't keep up with those with IOs, nevermind none of the content in CoH required anything more than SOs and possibly a team.

Yeah.

But then again it's understandable. Because when someone said they were having survival problems with their blaster for example, the answer was IOs, someone wanted to farm efficiently, the answer given was IOs, how to beat an AV or GM, the answer given was IOs, how to get perma dom, the answer given was IOs, how to tank with something other than tank or brute, the answer given was IOs, the builds posted of how to build and tips on building involved IOs, thus given the impression that IOs was needed and or mattered. Not to mention the premium that IOs demanded which also made it look like IOs was sought highly after because they was better and was needed to fill gaps In builds that otherwise couldn't have been filled.

And many people noticed the difference between an IOed out toon and a regular SO toon in PVP. Sure skill had something to do with it but a skilled guy with a knife can by definition beat a unskilled guy with a gun but baseline, the IO toon had upper hand. Now IOed out skilled player, good luck for even a mediocre player with only SO standing much of a chance. IOed vs IOed skill came more into play again. And again, on the forum, when someone said something about going into PvP with SO against IOed toon, the replies were, they were gimping themselves by using only SOs, which again gave another impression that IOs were needed.

Baseline gear didn't matter. Even with SOs. SOs were not needed to make it through to 50 either. But the thing is that players made it matter. Many people got kicked because they didn't have IOs, or called gimped because they didn't have IOs. And many teams refused to allow anyone that didn't have IOs set listed join the TF because as the ysaid "they would have to carry the SOed toon, they cant contribute well, they cant tank well for this TF, they will slow everyone down, they will die too much, they are playing gimped and etc."

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jag40 wrote:
jag40 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Kartanian wrote:
Another thought: I've now played a number of MMOs, and I am struck (again) by how rare the CoX system was where gear did not matter.

The funny part of this statement is, while people said this on the CoH forums, there were people who thought gear did matter because they felt they couldn't keep up with those with IOs, nevermind none of the content in CoH required anything more than SOs and possibly a team.

Yeah.
But then again it's understandable. Because when someone said they were having survival problems with their blaster for example, the answer was IOs, someone wanted to farm efficiently, the answer given was IOs, how to beat an AV or GM, the answer given was IOs, how to get perma dom, the answer given was IOs, how to tank with something other than tank or brute, the answer given was IOs, the builds posted of how to build and tips on building involved IOs, thus given the impression that IOs was needed and or mattered. Not to mention the premium that IOs demanded which also made it look like IOs was sought highly after because they was better and was needed to fill gaps In builds that otherwise couldn't have been filled.
And many people noticed the difference between an IOed out toon and a regular SO toon in PVP. Sure skill had something to do with it but a skilled guy with a knife can by definition beat a unskilled guy with a gun but baseline, the IO toon had upper hand. Now IOed out skilled player, good luck for even a mediocre player with only SO standing much of a chance. IOed vs IOed skill came more into play again. And again, on the forum, when someone said something about going into PvP with SO against IOed toon, the replies were, they were gimping themselves by using only SOs, which again gave another impression that IOs were needed.
Baseline gear didn't matter. Even with SOs. SOs were not needed to make it through to 50 either. But the thing is that players made it matter. Many people got kicked because they didn't have IOs, or called gimped because they didn't have IOs. And many teams refused to allow anyone that didn't have IOs set listed join the TF because as the ysaid "they would have to carry the SOed toon, they cant contribute well, they cant tank well for this TF, they will slow everyone down, they will die too much, they are playing gimped and etc."

I never ran into a group that said "No IOs, kick" and I PuGed A LOT! Often! I ran random people through ITFs, where most of the team was using it to level, so didn't have the IOs.

Goes back to Forum Goers are loud.

When the correct answer to Blaster couldn't survive was always "Well duh, GLASS CANON. Want to be tougher, use IOs."

And of course IOs gave an advantage in PvP over the SO user. As it should've been.

PvE wise, get a team, all use SOs, everything was beatable.

I always found it funny how people think getting gear (in CoH's case enhancements) made the game so unworkable. It's part of what makes it an MMO. CoH tried the no "gear" route and it lost because of it. People didn't have to chase after SOs, you made some influence and bought them.

In an MMO, people need something to chase after, more than just hitting max level. CoH was great in that it's gear didn't effect your look. There's a reason you see MMOs starting to have the "reskin your armor" options...most people want the gear chase, they just don't want it to crappy (TERA) and they don't want it to change their look. People want their avatar to look how they want them.

*Note: Yes, there are some hold outs who want everyone looking the same so they can place themselves as having completed such and such content or make it easy for them to spot who is who in PvP. We generally call them dumb though >_>

Lord Nightmare
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I will say that I am guilty

I will say that I am guilty of farming for IOs to be "The VERY Best".. but >_> you must understand my idea of what was the best is...unique.

Not PvP superiority, not the ability to massacre giant monsters solo (..got TWO! \o/ Babbage and Kraken), not being able to make the Rikti need new underwear...

It was to dominate the leader of the opposing faction. To defeat THE greatest threat to villainy... the Freedom Phalanx.. one at a time. Alone. THAT was my goal. And I did it. And that took a LONG while (as. It. SHOULD.) to get to that level. Lord Recluse SF.. multiple runs before I knew what to do. >_> I actually wished that Recluse himself would be like "...Holy hell, we need this guy in Arachnos." and opened up some new arc or something. Oh the amounts of farming I had to do before I had enough inspirations to get through.

So, I would like a system like IOs around.. but I'd also prefer that feats like that to take an EXTREMELY long time to set up (8 months... no seriously.).

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain

Brand X
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Lord Nightmare wrote:
Lord Nightmare wrote:

I will say that I am guilty of farming for IOs to be "The VERY Best".. but >_> you must understand my idea of what was the best is...unique.
Not PvP superiority, not the ability to massacre giant monsters solo (..got TWO! \o/ Babbage and Kraken), not being able to make the Rikti need new underwear...
It was to dominate the leader of the opposing faction. To defeat THE greatest threat to villainy... the Freedom Phalanx.. one at a time. Alone. THAT was my goal. And I did it. And that took a LONG while (as. It. SHOULD.) to get to that level. Lord Recluse SF.. multiple runs before I knew what to do. >_> I actually wished that Recluse himself would be like "...Holy hell, we need this guy in Arachnos." and opened up some new arc or something. Oh the amounts of farming I had to do before I had enough inspirations to get through.
So, I would like a system like IOs around.. but I'd also prefer that feats like that to take an EXTREMELY long time to set up (8 months... no seriously.).

Less unique for me (always others who had done it) and more of just being an awesome accomplishment!

Solo ITF? SWEET!
Solo all the Recluse Lt's and Sidekicks at AV level? NICE!
Sadly, never soloed STF or LDGF, but I did duo the LGTF which I thought was still just as awesome!

Lord Nightmare
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:) Thank you. I've always had

:) Thank you. I've always had this insane desire to conquer the unconquerable. Should have seen me in WoW trying to get through Ironforge alone on my DK. Woulda made it too until PLAYERS got involved around the marketplace.

The Statesman TF would have probably been just as hard (never did more than level my heroes... no IOs, no special "raids", just needed them at 50).. maybe harder because you have Ghost Widow and Black Scorpion to contend with.

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain