I agree that a tutorial should be engaging enough that it's not a horrible trudge every time. I also think, at some point, you ought to be able to hit "skip." I liked in CoH where if you went through the whole tutorial you came out level 2, and if you skipped you were level 1. I'd keep that.

I would like to see some minor variations based on, for lack of a better term, "projected alignment" choices. So, as you go through the tutorial, you are given a few choice in different situations. How you choose will cause a slight divergence in the tutorial "story." That way, while learning the mechanics, they also learn that choices have consequences in this game. And you get a slightly different experience with each alignment change.

In the end, you come out of the tutorial with a couple levels and an "initial" alignment.

So, I'm advocating some minor additions to the tutorial content that would help keep it semi-fresh. But I don't want lots of time sucked away from general content creation. Easter Eggs and hidden goodies are only new until you find them the first time. I don't want to encourage people to spend time exploring the tutorial by themselves, I want them to spend time playing the game with everybody else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCPcn-Q5nKE&list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5A6vl7OThKEqe5scJXOyg0a&index=9 Just gonna leave this here.

I'm probably going to make Gangrel spit take all over his keyboard and screen by mentioning this again, but Lin Chiao Feng knows this story (by having been present when it happened).

So at the Tabula Rasa War College in 2008, I was sitting with [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/CuppaJo]CuppaJo[/url] in the restaurant we'd all gathered at with the other Players who had been flown into town for the event and explaining to her that the Tabula Rasa tutorial was great ... except that now we had this new [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Veteran_Rewards_Program]Veteran's Reward[/url] of Brass Knuckles for having been subscribed for six months. You lose a bit from not having the voice and emote options available from being in person for the re-enactment, but the details of the Mission can be found in [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Basic_Training_101]Basic Training 101[/url].

[b]"Equip your weapon!"[/b]

{I shrug and make a fist with my right hand and slap the palm of my left hand against the knuckles of my right hand, "equipping" the Brass Knuckles weapon}
{I hold up my fist to "show" that I've got the Brass Knuckles equipped}
{Everyone listening to me tell this story nods their head, because they know this part of the tutorial, but the grins are starting}

[b]"Target the Supply Crate!"[/b]

{I mime centering the boresight on my screen onto the $Target and hit TAB to lock onto the Supply Crate}

[b]"Shoot the Supply Crate!"[/b]

{I look at my right hand, confused, and then quirk an eyebrow at CuppaJo}
{CuppaJo puts her hand over her face and just DISSOLVES INTO EMBARRASSED LAUGHTER...}
{The other Tabula Rasa players at the table are doing their version of LMAO howling, knowing what's coming up}

{I mime punching my arm forward and then make a big [b]*KABOOM!!*[/b] noise indicating that the dreaded Supply Crate has been destroyed, on schedule}

[b]"Reload your weapon!"[/b]

{I look at my fist}
{I look at CuppaJo with a priceless "[url=http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/7/72/Orly.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081126173842]O RLY?[/url]" look}
{CuppaJo is NOT having an easy time of it and just can't show her face to the rest of us}
{All of the other people at our table are laughing so hard that we're the noisiest table in a very noisy restaurant}

{I mime swapping my Brass Knuckles for the standard issue pistol, then mime discharging a round, then mime reloading the pistol}

[b]"Use your Sprint ability!"[/b]

{I roll my eyes and start miming that I'm hustling to the next stop in the tutorial}
{Everyone around me is just [b][i]DYING[/i][/b] of laughter and howling at the tops of their lungs}
{CuppaJo still has a hand over her face, is sliding down in her chair, and is visibly QUIVERING because she's trying so hard not to completely lose it with the rest of us}

What made this whole joke just so unbelievably funny (for those of you who never played the game) was that the first Tabula Rasa Tutorial was written with a very rigid script in mind. You started the game with a Pistol and the Tutorial was there to teach you how to use it. Simple enough. But it wasn't designed for there to be a weapon option OTHER THAN the Pistol. So when the 6 month Veteran Reward came along and you could suddenly equip a weapon OTHER THAN a Pistol, the logic chain of the Tutorial broke down in a most hilarious fashion (as evidenced by the joke I told above describing the breakdown).

I didn't want to say that myself
I've been chastised for such a comment in the past.
but seriously yeah

I mean most of the badges are totally worthless anyway.
If you got locked out of a useful badge, I could see being upset
but heck you probably never even look at most of your badges.
So, it's not even cosmetic.

I'm not trying to make fun of someone's hobby,
and if it gets you to play it has to be good
but seriously could someone explain to me what the attraction is?
I'd love to know.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

I mean most of the badges are totally worthless anyway.

I know at least one of my friends who would get into a screaming match with you, he is a completionist, and getting all the badges is very important to him. My personal goals don't involve badge collecting.

However, I must remind you of my tagline: "Know thy users for they are not you." I want our game to be as fun as possible for as many people as possible, which includes things I don't find fun at all. I know lots of people don't enjoy the optimization game that I loved in CoH. Getting my Dark Tank to 45% S/L/E/N was a huge goal for me, and when I was done, that's where it was. Not 44.9%, not 45.1%, but 45%. Lots of people would find that maddening.

Just my 2 IGC.

Felix

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

As I said, I don't want to insult anyone's hobby
I'm just asking for some explanation
If any exists.
If it's just something you can't explain that's fine I'll accept it
But With so many people devoted to the hobby
and so emotional about it
I thought there might be something to it that can be explained.
If you're friend started shouting at me
what might he say?

I must say, from a psychological perspective, there is no *one* reason. Some people do it for completeness. Some people do it as a manifestation of OCD. Some people do it as a competition. There are as many reasons for badge-hunting as there are the people that do it. It is unlikely that any two people would do it for the exact same reason.

Short version: There is no one answer.

Gangrel wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
I'm probably going to make Gangrel spit take all over his keyboard and screen by mentioning this again
Clean up in Aisle 3 please!

Ah ... satisfaction! *^_^*

Brand X wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
I never understood badge hunting (I only intentionally pursued the ones that boosted power), but I also mostly solo, and some people don't understand soloing an MMO (I don't understand it either, I just enjoy it :P).
The ability to solo most content (not every single bit--I'm not strict solo, just mostly) is important to me.
So... if some people can't sleep at night unless they have all the badges--don't cramp their style, let em have the ability to pursue all badges on all characters.
And, yes, +1, make the tutorial fun!

I understand the reasoning, but since it was easy enough to lose out due to badges like the Anniversary Badge, with no way to ever get it again, I think part of it is realizing it's not a 100% thing.

I tend to agree. I think there could - maybe even should - be a distinction between "account level" badges and "individual character" badges. Account level stuff like "length of time subbed/played" or "Here for X Anniversary" should be displayed on all of your characters - but if you missed something - you missed it.

TheMightyPaladin wrote:

How did this become all about badges?

It's called [b]Learning From History[/b].

Ever heard of the concept?

threads get derailed...not the first time and it won't be the last. :p

Given that there is a plan to have a tutorial, and allow it to be skipped, and we recognize there are badge hunters out there we have several options.
Don't have a tutorial badge.
Make the tutuorial mandatory once, award an account-wide badge, after which the tutorial can be skipped.
Allow the tutorial to be skipped, but revisited as a solo instance which reverts the character to level one.
Don't have a separate tutorial zone, but design the tutorial to begin with direct entry to the game with the option to skip / ignore the tutorial script and missions. These will be made a ailable via some form of flash back system.

Tannim222 wrote:

Allow the tutorial to be skipped, but revisited as a solo instance which reverts the character to level one.

Even if there is no tutorial badge, I'd think this option would offer good opportunity for future development. I.e. if MWM ever decides to change the tutorial, anyone who wanted to try it out with a veteran character (appropriately exemped) could do so.

Yeah that's part of why I solo a lot.
People expect you to reply to private messages and crap like that.
I Can't play and type, at the same time.

And I do NOT want the lore pushed on me during the tutorial
or any other time either.
my characters are not going to fit into your lore and I don't care
the idea of game lore is too at odds with giving my character his own background

Oh and Greyhawk WASD is weird to me
and gives me finger cramps after only a few seconds.
Mouse clicking to move is crazy in a 3D world without a fixed overhead view
and the arrow keys are arranged just like WASD so there's no difference
unless I want to play left handed
that's why we've all said we want fully customizable keybinds
I use QWES, and I've quit games because I couldn't set they keys that way.
(Terra was the worst)

OK then I'll try this again:

After I've completed the tutorial once.
Give me the option to click beginner or veteran
If I click veteran let me do the mission without all the instructions
That way it's not a bunch of boring text, about stuff I already know.

Then make the mission actually engaging
not just a walk from one instructor to the next.
And no freeking training bots.
Don't make it feel like training
make it feel like playing the game.

Did any of you ever play Freedom Force?
It's tutorial was one of the best I've ever seen.
You start out in a park full of bad guys,
and a narrator tells you what you need to do
Not instructor NPCs.
You can follow the instructions if you want
or just go on and do the mission your own way
if you've done this before and know what to do.

Maybe space out the tutorial over several missions in an introductory zone
where the earliest missions require the least knowledge and new stuff is added step by step.
And being sent to talk to another NPC is NOT a mission.
Have the contacts really give you something to do.

At this point it's probably necessary for me to point out what I see as LORE.

Information pertinent to the current adventure is NOT Lore.
Information about the world at large is Lore.

I know that to some extent lore is inevitable. The devs want to be creative and I can't blame them. But that's not why I'm here. I'm not interested sorry. My toons already have their own background stories and I really don't care if it doesn't work in this world because it conflicts with the lore. Also I have no interest in who the devs think are the main characters because in the game I'm playing my toons are the main characters.
Lore will always be there for us to find when we look for it. It will always be present as window dressing. There is no need to use the tutorial to cram it down our throats.

If the thugs are funded by an evil development company etc.... that's part of this mission.
and there's no reason to tell us about it except in this mission.
The same group of thugs might have a different boss and plan in another mission.

I don't see why what happened in Freedom Force couldn't translate to an MMO
There were differences like there was only one mission available at a time
and lore was a bigger deal, but it focused on the characters you were playing, so it wasn't a problem
I did not consider the cutscenes to be part of the tutorial, but an intro to the story
Obviously that wont work in a world where you make your own character but that get's into why I don't want to see lore at all in an MMO. Lore is THE thing that doesn't translate from regular games to MMOs and shouldn't be used.

As far as I was concerned the tutorial started when you took over the character in the park.
from that point on everything that was done in that game could be done in an MMO

1) the park was an open but finite area to explore
2) it told you how to move around, look around, interact with objects and attack people
3) it could be ignored if you already knew what to do

More instructions could easily be added as needed, I was only using it as an example.

Dungeons & Dragons Online makes the tutorial into a set of missions.
In the first one you team up with a group of NPCs who show you the ropes
then you arrive in a tutorial setting called Korthos where there are several missions to be done
You have to interact with several NPCs who tell about things you need to know and give you missions
but at no time are you ever hitting practice dummies or just walking from one NPC to another to learn about stuff.
Also the game has tips that pop up from time to time to give you advice
and you can turn them off if you don't need them.
Loading screens also offer tips.
and the screens that open to let you interact with utilities are very self explanatory.

The main thing is that apart from the first very short mission where the 3 NPCs are showing you the ropes
Korthos never feels like a tutorial, it feels like an adventure.
and a big part of the reason for that is that the narrator just tells you stuff instead of a bunch of NPCs giving you stupid busy work chocked full of more info than you can digest at once.

In Korthos a character gives you a sword and tells you to swing it around
a tip box tells you how to do it.
this helps make the NPC's advice seem more natural, and breaks up the text into smaller easier to swallow bites.

also when you get a sword you're told how to use it but you don't have to sit through the whole description of weapons and how they work. It's a lot simpler than getting your first enhancements and inspirations in COH.

I think my favorite part of the n00bl4r zone you start out in when playing TERA is that you have to cross a bridge before you even get to your first hostile mob. What's fun is that there's an NPC parked on one end of the bridge and another NPC who walks back and forth (longwise) on the bridge patrolling it. If you talk to the NPC standing on the end of the bridge, they'll tell you to try and not get yourself killed by crossing this guarded and well patrolled bridge. Considering the fact that the only way to do so would involve suicidally jumping off the bridge into the abyss below (which invisible walls prevent you from even trying to do), I always thought it was hilarious how much condescension that NPC managed to put into their Chat text. It was the humor value equivalent of "try not to choke yourself to death while being spoon fed you pathetic baby!"

Because if you couldn't move across a bridge THAT SAFE then you had no business even trying to play an Action Combat System game like TERA.

Greyhawk wrote:

If the interface design is done well, it will be possible to not have a tutorial because the game itself becomes the tutorial.

This pretty much encapsulates a larger part of the game, and makes a lot of sense in the long run. A good UI on an MMO will typically be self explanatory, an an observant player will be able to learn as they go.

However, given the inherent need for one, since most might believe that the very nature of MMOs is so different to conventional games, the perceived complexity behind it will require a tutorial, so there might as well be some thoughts on how to make such a thing entertaining in the eyes of the player.

After all, there are very few, I believe, who will be aware what the word 'Tutorial' is in the context of a video game and not sigh, and I'll explain why in a second.

So, here are a few thoughts of my own in regards to the tutorial, should there be one.

[b]1) Don't make it mandatory, but offer incentive.[/b]

One of the reasons why gamers might bemoan a tutorial is that the inherent meaning behind it can be patronising, as well as the fact that it is seen as something the game is making you do, rather than something you want to do. While players who have never really played games before might see it as necessary, gamers who have played for a while, and especially MMO veterans will feel that they need to desperately skip it.

Alternatively, you can offer an experience that is easy and teaches the basics, but also guarantees a kind of reward for doing it. City of Heroes, in this context, offers a badge or two and a guaranteed level by the time you get to the other end.

Mandatory tutorials in these situations also find themselves making the most out of what they provide. Guild Wars 2 would generate a tutorial experience by having your character be the defining hero in a major crisis or the winner of an event, not only teaching you how the game is played but also kicking off your adventure in the long run.

Sure, the larger game will have far more levels to gain and many, many more badges to collect, but the tutorial won't leave you with nothing, and defining what to reward your players with by doing the tutorial, regardless of the player's prior experience, should be a larger part of the pulling power into doing it.

[b]2) The right balance between telling the player, and letting them experience it[/b]

Certain aspects of gameplay the player will need to discover for themselves. Cramming every aspect of the game into your tutorial will make a tutorial that will go on for too long. Really, all that needs to be done is to give your player enough information to move their character and interact with the world; information that the UI will not explain by itself.

[img]http://www.cityofheroes.ca/global/includes/images/mt4/game_info/UI.jpg[/img]
[i]Image Pulled from City of Heroes Canada Website[/i]

With the image above, there's a lot of things here that can be discerned without the tutorial immediately explaining it, depending on how well the player had been paying attention during character creation. The compass, the health bar and the chat window are self explanatory, especially during game play. In that same instance, the powers tray contains icons representing powers, icons that the player will have seen and made associations for when picking powers during character creation.

What needs to be explained that the UI has no indicator for is how to move and how to interact with the rest of the world. The cursor becomes another factor of the UI as it changes colours to indicate friend or foe, but you might need an explanation on what kinds of things can be targeted. As Greyhawk said above, the design of the UI can be a tutorial in and of itself with appropriate context clues. Want to teach the player about Leads? Have the journal flash to indicate a new lead has been found, maybe have a jingle to boot. The player will want to click on the journal to see what's up, at which point it will automatically highlight and select the lead upon opening. There can be buttons within that Lead to select it as a focus, which will put an obvious marker on the Nav Bar for the player to follow.

[b]3) Have the tutorial mimic the main game's core mechanic as best it can[/b]

While it doesn't have to be entirely randomised, perhaps a series of three branching paths can be taken in this scenario. With the core game being a largely open world, find your own way experience sort of deal, the tutorial needs to have a little bit of slack in that regard. Making it linear might cause first time players to think that, perhaps, the game has a linear aspect to it as well.

What I suggest would be a small city zone with a few points of interest capable of producing leads, which in turn lead to maybe another lead that results in a final mission. These can be mobs, contacts etc and the player will proceed to explore this area given a singular, driving context.

What that context is depends largely on what the tutorial is meant to mimic. If it's meant to contextually be a tutorial for the character as well as the player, perhaps it's a mentor teaching a sidekick or otherwise new hero by testing their abilities. Perhaps it's the PC putting on the costume for the first time and going on their literal first patrol. The over arching 'mission' would simply be 'find crime' or, in the context of a villain, 'get rich/make trouble'.

What you then have to decide is if the players are secluded in this, or share a city zone in this fashion.

[b]4) Allow for an in game manual[/b]

While I say all this, there are players that might need everything spelled out for them. I can't deny that perhaps I have fallen into this category, either through not paying attention or the desire to get absolutely everything right. For everything that needs to be explained in greater detail, maybe a 'Hero's/Villain's manual' within the journal tab can contain appropriate references to functions not immediately explained during the tutorial section.

I apologize in advance for this long post, but this whole aspect of the game is important to me, and the other Super MMO's have failed me.

Champions Online doesn't have a separate tutorial, as I recall. It just starts you out with a very easy linear mission and gives you some instruction along the way. It's all about the Qulaar Invasion, which of course, you miraculously put down in a few minutes. You meet a handful of the signature characters and you generally have an idea of how the major mechanics work by the time you're halfway through. I have justified my hero's presence in Detroit (which is where the invasion is happening, oddly) because, as a hero, I'm going to where help is needed. The tutorial story pretty much allows this and simply introduces me to the conflict at hand. His/Her origins are mine to imagine. The problem is that they become heroes of the struggle and (originally) you got a big reception lauding your exploit at the end of the tutorial. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!

DC Universe Online starts you in the middle of, guess what, an invasion. Brainiac this time. So, apparently you've gotten your powers BECAUSE of the invasion, and have been captured. (You've also apparently had time to put together a costume and think of a catchy hero name) But now, you must escape the mother ship, while at the same time reducing its defenses so that Superman can make a big entrance and help you destroy it. So you get the basic mechanics again and, not surprisingly, the lore is crammed into every aspect of your introduction to the world. Consequently, everyone has essentially the same origin. Your body is infected with some kind of nanite that manifests differently for different people. ::shrug:: (not much depth there, I know, but it is DC after all)

There are problems with both of these approaches, besides their obvious similarities. They relate, in large part, to the overall design of the game, their respective lore and how the two are integrated.

First and foremost, you can't skip them. The intro mission IS your FIRST mission. You can't enter the world any other way, and there are no contacts for you if you did. Both are pretty long. Much longer than CoH, Maybe as long as CoV, I don't remember that one clearly.

DCUO doesn't even recognize that you could have an origin outside the lore or the immediate opening story. Worse, The DCUO world has a clear and immediate threat that is constantly hanging over the earth, and you spend most of your time putting out minor fires while the Big Kids (ie Justice League) presumably take on Brainiac directly.

CO, conversely, puts you right at the heart of the main problem right out of the gate. Aaaaaand...you solve it. Kaboom. Just like that. You defeat the world threat in your first 20 minutes of play. (Well, you press a button that allows some signature hero to solve it.) Anyways, congratulations, now random NPC's will come up to you and thank you for saving the world. Just like everyone else.

For me, both of these scenarios make it difficult to insert my vision of a character into the world. So what would I want?

Well, we have a city. That's a given. It's a particular city. I can't pretend that it's Harlem or Latveria or Central City. Or at least, it's more energy than I want to spend trying to pretend the reality constantly presented to me is actually something else. So, I need a reason for being here. I can certainly supply my own motivation. I would say that as a generic base, the city is teetering on the edge of destruction due to the inexplicable number of super-beings popping up. So as a Hero, I've come to "help." Restoring order, protecting the innocent, whatever. (Yes, we can overlook the fact that my presence is actually contributing to the problem) As a Villain, I've come to take advantage of the impending chaos; tipping it over the edge, gathering power in the vacuum of authority, the usual.

Since I'm level 1, I am apparently newly come into my power or have not found sufficient challenge to push me to the next "level." so getting used to how they work, and how much I can DO with them is essential. But I also need some idea of how this new city "works." I'm not going to walk up to the first costumed freak I see, proclaim my presence and attack. No, I'm going to look a round. Talk to people. Now If I see a gang of unruly thugs bothering some innocent citizen, well... As a hero, I'm going to intervene, natch. Even as a villainous type, I'm going to try and establish a "rep", and these punks are either exploitable or expendable. But I'm also going to learn how the "authorities" react to my actions and what are the consequences.

So, the tutorial needs to tell me how my powers work and how I can expand them. And a little about the city and it's politics. After that, I should be on my own to write my story (within the confines of the missions I acquire, obviously) and discover (or gloss over) the surrounding lore that doesn't impact me directly.

Hiya Sam!

I think, a good way to run a tutorial is to have it as a sort of 'overlay' that can be applied to any mission. SWtoR does something like this. There is no 'tutorial mission', there is simply the first mission and a bit of 'prompt and show' to point the way, which a player can toggle on and off.

That way, a player can plunge directly into the story.

And, please, no earth-shattering alien invasions where we save the world as our first action and everything afterwards is anti-climax.

Be Well!
Fireheart