All right you all know I don't like PVP and the things that might make me like it will change it completely but don't worry. I'm not out to ruin anyone else's fun. There can be different types of PVP in the same game.
Anyway one of the other threads got me thinking that I would like to go up against some actual costumed villains more often than I could in COH, without it always having to be a complete mission. Of course other players will be playing villains, I could just fight them, but that's PVP and I don't like PVP so What to do?
So first lets talk about why I don't like PVP than we can look for solutions together.
No I'm not going to be able to propose a solution for every problem. Sorry.
If I could do that I'd volunteer to join the Devs.
Since characters in PVP are generally around the same level, you'd think the fights would be fair, but I like to solo, and if 2 or 12 other players close to my level jump on me I don't have a chance. This is the biggest problem, so:
1) It would be nice if there was a way to limit the number of opponents who can engage one target.
2) Or maybe allow high level toons to fight a crowd of lower level toons
3) maybe have PVP missions instead of JUST Zones
4) Allow people to duel.
5) Let people make themselves targets in public areas when they want to, for an XP bonus for the time they survive.
6) Even have some activities that make you a target for a while when you do them (With an appropriate warning before you start them of course)
If there are heroes, villains and vigilantes all running around in the same zones all of the time, it doesn't make a lot of sense for PVP to be limited to certain Zones.
I'm open to ideas, and I hope the Devs have some.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
There was a kickstarter update about PvP once. Warcabbit tossed some ideas around what might be possible to do.
Some of those seem to be exactly what you want. #4 seems to be a 'friendly' kind of PvP, to settle minor disputes. I am not a big fan of PvP myself, but I look forward to what they plan for this.
Here is [URL=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/639751]a link[/URL] to the Kickstarter update. I think you will find it interesting and reassuring.
My biggest problem with PVP was that in CoH your toon acted and had very different capabilities in direct PVP than it did in PVE. I would like to see the very same game mechanics for both. Although PVP will probably never be a big draw for me, I don't want to discard it because some seem to think it essential for their enjoyment and I want a diverse player base with lots of options for all. I do not think it will ever be fair because no one ever wants a fair fight. I will by my very human nature shamelessly take every advantage offered, while at the same time try very hard to minimize my disadvantages. I do not think that the PVP environment should be dumbed down to make everyone equal and enforce fair fights. Some builds and ATs by their very nature will be very powerful in PVP, while others will be very hampered and I think it should be that way. I do want to say that in my time in CoH it wasn't a very concerning matter for me to PVP or not. I did not PVP most of the time. Usually, if I went to a PVP zone it was for some type of badge or reward. This is not really in reply to your post Paladin, just my opinion on the broad subject. Thanks to any and all who bother to read it though.
I reserve the right to have an opinion. You reserve the right to not agree.
I have never encountered a PvP that I enjoyed.
I like your idea of a joint mission where the villain and hero start on opposite sides of the map. Equal levels and equal numbers. that works.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
The only PVP I ever enjoyed worked that way, but half the players had to be zombies, and which side you were on switched every time.
That was fun for a while.
it was in Champions Online
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
PvP is really fun and can be enjoyed by everyone... If done right! CoX's was a great example of the complete opposite of correctness. Game started off with SOs and some special ones as the highest thing to achieve and that ruined the possibility of, what could have been, a big community. Any PvPers who played in the beginning left because the game was horrid and CoX probably lost, im gussing, 75% of its population due to lack of game design (first impression). CoX was not designed for PvP in mind and was implemented to satisify the few which ended up being broken so their fix, i believe issue 4, was put in. By then it was too late.
PvP needs to be deigned in the very beginning with all the systems to make it work correctly (ex. IO and IO sets). This will bring more satisfaction of PvP and more fun for everyone.
-AlienMafia (Justice Server)
Main: Thorns 13xx Badges
I loved the concept of that ''Battleground'' it was my favorite as well. If anyone does not know, Champions has a battleground that is pretty much zombie survival with players in the mix. It came out on Halloween (if I am remembering this correctly) and essentially what would happen is that you would be in a snowy (you could barely see) climate getting hunted by NPC zombies and a single player one. The NPC zombies ranged from just standard slow zombies to an zombie that would pull flying heroes out of the air with his tongue (Yes that zombie was indeed based off the Smoker from Left 4 Dead) and of courseif you died you would become another player zombie. You win if you survive for a certain amount of time as a survivor, or if all the survivors get eaten by the zombies.
You could apply that with some other factions. I imagine CoX could of done it with the Rikti or the Devouring Earth
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
I have never been really into the whole PVP thing, but the idea of a team of heroes going against a team of villains in a mission-style map intrigues me...
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
Making power mechanics work the same in PvE and PvP is actually not a good idea. That is, unless you want to make the game revolve entirely around PvP.
The problem is that computer opponents are utterly stupid, while human opponents (generally) are not. Also, the kind of things you as a player might enjoy doing to a computer opponent would be met with a lot of very vocal protest if you were able to do them to another player. Sneaking your way over five minutes into the perfect position for that one-hit kill? There will be players who love that, but it would neither work in PvP (no player stays put for that amount of time) nor would it be enjoyed by the player receiving that instant kill. Stun locking your computer opponent and make another beat it into submission? Par for the course for a controller, but a player who sees another player control his character will blow a gasket. Pet classes? No player will ever be confused by it and will go straight for the pet controller.
I could go on about all kinds of interesting archetype concepts that would utterly fail in a PvP arena. There is a reason why PvP centered games typicallly go with three archetypes: Tanky DPS, ranged DPS and Ambushy DPS. Because in PvP DPS in king and only heavy tweaking of the mechanics will help a little in making PvE archetypes work in that environment (but it will never really work).
In Dungeons & Dragons Online, when you select your class
the character creator tells you which characters are good at soloing
and which ones are going to be really hard to solo with.
We could do the same thing with PVP.
I mean why does every class have to be equal in PVP anyway?
What's wrong with some classes being better than others at what they do?
Isn't that why we have classes anyway?
Oh, and above I suggested that there should be a way to limit how many toons can target a single opponent in PVP
Then I said it would be cool if one high level toon could take on a team of lower level toons
Maybe the number of attackers allowed could be based on the relative levels
I'm also kind of hoping for some evening out of levels in PVP like we saw in giant monster fights and the Rikti invasions.
I honestly don't know if these suggestions conflict or if there's a way of resolving a possible conflict with different types of PVP
but these Ideas might help with the problem of powers working differently in PVP.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
CoH never was designed to have PvP, so it is no surprise that it didn't work at all when it was finally introduced. But the existence of SOs as the highest rank of enhancements was not the reason for it. IOs made it easier to spec your character for extreme speed and DPS, so they made it easier to be competitve in PvP, but the underlying problem was that four out of five archetypes had no business being in a PvP area to begin with because their classes lacked one those two qualities (Scrappers had the dps, but needed to get into melee range to deal it, tankers and defenders lacked the dps and controllers relied on pets and stunlocking, both of which were effectively taken away in PvP).
You are vastly, and I mean vastly, overrating both the appeal of PvP and the size of its community. Sony games for the most part haven't been able to fill a single PvP server through most of their existence SW:TOR pushes its PvP very hard but the open world PvP zones are effectively wastelands too. Outside of battlefields PvP in WoW is almost non-existent, even on PvP servers. City of Heroes never had PvP and when it finally was implemented badly the number of people who left because of that could be counted in the single digits. Players concluded that despite the arena and duels, and later the three PvP zones the game continued to not have PvP. Which they were mostly fine with because that was no different than the game they were playing before.
The ideal PvP game is one where you can quickly jump in with a minimum of fuss, where player skill is the only determining factor and where the recovery time after a kill is close to zero. MMOs are about the worst possible game to try to shoehorn into that model. As such there is only a tiny percentage of players who are dedicated PvPers in those game. Depening on the game, community and the way the PvP is set up typically between a quarter and a third occasionally join a PvP battlefield queue but because MMOs are -gear- driven they typically don't enjoy the experience enough to become dedicated, simply because it takes a lot of dedicated and time consuming work to build up the equipment and spec to be able to hold your own against dedicated players, and until you put in all that work you are going to be wiped. A lot.
There is a reason why I feel that you can't really mix a PvE and a PvP game without at least one of those playstyles suffering from the attempt. CoH never managed to get its PvP to be entertaining (or even playable). SW:TOR PvE feels flat because it has been made subservient to the needs of PvP (which also explains why each of their 8 archetypes are DPS classes with a flavour of DPS, Tank or Heal thrown over it. The developers of MWM have already said that they do believe they have a system which will allow PvE classes to play more or less the same in a PvP environment, so we will have to wait and see if they are right. I won't have anything to do with PvP regardless but for what it is worth, I hope they are right.
PvP. just like forming a gang! :P
To beat on other people for Funzies? :{
BTW, i play Street Fighter (B+ rank) and i still hated CoH's PvP.
League of Legends, Starcraft 2, Dota 2, Counter Strike GO, and Hearthstone are among the "normal top 10" on twitch. All of which are PvP based and some the most popular games in the world. Call of Duty and Battlefield are others. PvP community is Gigantic!!!!
PvP community in MMOs consist of a fraction of a percent in comparison but mainly due to failures in design. I believe there are ways to even the playing field and others to provide a fun or competitive for all.
I have 1 idea that i will be posting later.
-AlienMafia (Justice Server)
Main: Thorns 13xx Badges
And yet MMORPGs with budgets measured in the millions haven't found the "secret sauce" recipe needed for this yet.
Well this ought to be good then.
/em popcorn
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
When i made the suggestion to have primarily Arena style Teams with the same AT's on each team before a match could be started, people shot it down. :(
Reason given was, "It's BORING if Both Teams are evenly matched in power!"
"It will take Us toooo long to Gank one n00b. Want to gank as many as possible in the least amount of time." :{
*If one team has a Troller, the Other team will need a troller... Tank Tank, Damage Damage, etc...
I tried using my mastermind (my favorite character) a few times in PvP....let's just say it did not go well at all once scrappers and blasters noticed me. I wouldn't even try to take a Controller or a Defender out on the field because I knew I'd get nuked just as hard.
And yeah, I do not like the PvP community that much (I am so going to get called a ''carebear'' for that) so count me out on anymore suggestions other then fun battleground concepts.
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
I like Care Bears.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
One of our design goals for powers is to make them operate the same whether against a PC or NPC as much as possible. Even in what traditionally may have been a behavioral effect on an NPC is for the most part meant to alter capability to then produce a desired behavior. To take things a step further, if the heuristics driven AI works properly, the AI will actually be taught behavior based on observing human interactions.
Which is why powers are being designed the way I described. Even if we end up with more traditonally designed AI, the power designs are still meant to provide a basis for pve or pvp. We want the barrier of entry to pvp to be as easy as possible so that players will at least have a reasonable understanding of how powers operate (in the xase where values may need to be changed, mechanics should still remain valid). Barring exceptions due to changes made during extensive testing of course.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
...and it shall be known as the time of the great Barrong Nerfing...fear for your pvp my erst while heroes, Barrong is coming!
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Where's his brother, Barrite? :|
;)
Once again foiled by my nemesis: the smart puone with auto-correct turned off! (I've since edited the post).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
This sounds like you are attempting to do for PvP what CoH did for teaming.
Which... is... AWESOME.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
MM's had a STEEP learning curve in PvP! I too learned PvP on a Merc/Dark in the zones. Took a few days before I made my 1st kill in BB. I was lvl 17 and he was 50. I evened the odds by dragging him across a tar patch that was difficult to see in the water.
Once one was past the learning curve however, MMs were beasts in casual PvP. The only real limitation was the inherent lack of speed due to the pets. I addressed that with Group Fly + TP Foe in zones and Team Teleport in base raids. (Team TP was AMAZING in PvP in a way it could never be in PvE.) It was all a matter of maintaining the initiative, but that's basically true for any class.
So I had fun with PvP for a few months and mastered it to a level I was comfortable with and then basically dropped it. I had an unusual problem in that I suddenly couldn't equate pushing buttons with being in a fight. After that I only entered PvP at the request of friends.
*sits down next to Redlynne and steals a handful of popcorn*
Here we go again!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
The funny thing is that judging by my experiences in PvP in most MMOs (I had a hard time with GW2, because Necromancers at the time I played were outrperformed by every class and the only builds they had were incredibly boring) I have played I actually seem to be pretty good provided I figure out my most effective fighting style. I excelled at Wildstar with an Spellslinger and an Esper (healer) at any level other than cap (PvP balance in that game at the level cap is broke beyond belief). At that time period when I played CoH though (I was pretty young) I didn't want to put the time into it because I did not know were to even start.
I imagine if I tried nowadays I would of managed to make a good Necromancer mastermind in PvP. A shame I never got that chance. And yeah I don't really like the PvP community in any game. Most top PvPers I have seen are grade A egotistical assholes (I have seen a few pretty nice guys) and don't get me even get me started on the attitudes of gankers.
Still expecting to be called a carebear
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
Well, my main question for this subject is:
Who are we making PvP fun for? If it's for Me, then we don't need to bother. I have never understood the point of doing damage to another player.
The one time I recall agreeing to a duel, it was this needy newbie who just would NOT go away. And, when I finally consent to demonstrate why my level 30-something Bard is so awesome, he starts by saying, "Just don't kill me, please!"
But I'm still constrained to be generous, so I give him a whirlwind tour of the receiving end of a half-dozen of my songs and he's complaining that he can't even hit me, so I sigh and stand still, and invite him to hit me... and the newb tries to take my head off. So I Charm him and send him off to fight a Hill Giant, screaming filth at me the whole way. And all he has to do to escape is concede the duel that I never wanted in the first place...
In the end, to keep him from dying, _I_ quit the duel, triggering a zone-wide announcement saying that he had defeated me in a duel... and the idiot starts talking Smack in broadcast.
I logged out in disgust.
EQ Bards rule! But I can count the number of times I've seen PvPers acting like real Heroes on one hand.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Bleddyn, if that what you describe makes one a carebear, I will have to paint a heart on my chest...
Agreed. I like care bears.
While it's logical that PvP is where people who enjoy harassing others would gravitate towards (not saying all PvPers enjoy harassing others, just that PvP is where people who enjoy harassing others would get their best opportunities), that doesn't mean it's ok or that it's a good thing for PvP.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I never did much PVP in any game I've ever played online and I don't intend to do much in CoT. For all I care, they can handle the PVP any way the PVPers want, I just ask that they don't let it negatively affect my PVE experience in the trade-off.
There are a lot of ways PVP could be handled by the PVPers so as to ensure some degree of fairness and balance in matches, even if the game itself isn't fair and the classes aren't balanced. You could have "weight classes" of different classes, levels, etc. I wouldn't force that on anyone, but I'd give people the controls for setting up matches with restrictions like "no controllers" or "only scrappers" or whatever. That way any unfair/imbalanced fights are the responsibility of the fighters themselves to police. If you don't think your Defender can possibly ever beat most tankers, then don't fight them, or when you do fight them, don't expect to be able to win. Or do large team stuff where the different class balances can be handled in the aggregate.
All I'm saying is, I personally don't want to see them change the way the PVE version of the game works just so that the PVP will be less imbalanced, because you'll never get it right and you'll never get to the point of well-balanced PVP either, so you're ruining BOTH PVE and PVP for what? You gain nothing. When the classes aren't all the same and there is imbalance, and that leads to problems, the PVPers should be tasked with handling those problems themselves anyway, in my opinion. The fact that most competitive people like to just dominate the competition through min/maxing and obeying only the strict letter of the rules is an issue there, though, I realize. But anyone who agrees to "no holds barred" as a rule should know what they're getting into. The only people who are losing anything there are the PVPers who are losing matches, and the competitive losers are going to complain and say the game is unfair no matter what you do. As a friend of mine once opined "There are two types of Mortal Kombat players: those who foot sweep, and those who complain about those who foot sweep."
As far as PVP zones with "bait" to lure people there, I'm not crazy about that idea, but as long as the bait is not something 100% necessary to have, and/or is only temporary (go to the zone get the thing, it gives you a buff for like a few minutes, etc) I think it would be okay.
I think one big improvement would be having some sort of game-sponsored PVP event schedule for people to participate in at regular time intervals. Possibly with prizes for the winners. I personally don't understand the phenomenon of video game spectating, but I've seen people sit there and watch LoL matches on their laptops, so it happens. If that sort of interest could be generated in this game, it would probably earn some money.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
PvEvP
You "fight" other Players through the medium of the environment. Make the competition happen through indirect means, rather than through direct means. Even a game as simple as Tug-o-War happens through the medium of a rope between the contestants, so that the competitors are never in direct contact with each other ... unlike Arm Wrestling.
Most PvP you'll ever find is more like Arm Wrestling, where the PCs are pitted against each other very directly.
I want to see a PvEvP where the PCs are pitted against each other [i]indirectly[/i] through the medium of the game's environment [i]and NPCs[/i]. That way, the PCs act more like field generals than boxers or wrestlers. The PCs are supposed to LEAD the fight and direct its ebb and flow, rather than just "merely participate" in the fight and are the only deciding factor that makes any difference whatsoever (because the NPCs are hopeless and useless and only exist to be cannon fodder).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
You mean, like by beating up or aiding different factions and their squads in various areas of the city to help them gain or force them to lose control of various areas?
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Hey Bleddyn here are some Care Bears just for you.
https://www.google.com/search?q=goth+care+bear&newwindow=1&espv=2&tbm=isch&imgil=ArbMyMDIpvGpRM%253A%253B2Ild2MOvJwRg-M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Faecopmr.buzznet.com%25252Fphotos%25252Fdefault%25252F%25253Fid%2525253D6132381&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ArbMyMDIpvGpRM%253A%252C2Ild2MOvJwRg-M%252C_&usg=__Ems6hV986Qf8D_OEmrw0J4qhVYc%3D&biw=1280&bih=899&ved=0CCwQyjc&ei=-0ctVee2EMyuggSGvoGgCw#imgrc=_
Man that's a long link but it just takes you to some google image search results.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
So at the end, is there a big "final confrontation" between the two players leading the armies, or is it me versus your end boss NPC and you versus my end boss NPC? I'm fine with that. Hero leads Longbow regiment against some badguy faction led by villain, etc.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Amateurs learn tactics.
Professionals learn logistics.
Segev, that is [i]functionally[/i] akin to what I'm talking about, without necessarily limiting things to just that one interpretation or mode. In other words, "leading armies" would be ONE of the options available, as to being the ONLY option available. Mind you, the whole idea of "leading armies" in this case would be somewhat akin to being a Mastermind, without being exactly like being a Mastermind.
And yes, this still ties back into the idea of using Control Points which can fly different flags at different times after having been captured by different factions ... of NPCs ... with or without the aid of PCs in the fight. So you're on the right track.
I have mentioned Control Points and the battles for them before, right?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
this is the first question that needs to be answered, imo. are you striving for the hardcore pvp'rs out there or are you trying to bring in the casual crowd that pvp's only on occasion. once this is determined it will set you on the path that needs to be followed as there is a difference between the two.
I personally do not believe you can appease both crowds...as such you have to choose between the two. my choice would be to go for the casual crowd as the hard core folks are but a small (percentage wise) portion of your player base.
I am not a big pvp'r. the extreme element it tends to always attract does not suit my tastes, not to mention the never ending string of complaints about overpowered, underpowered, ad nasuem... which then inevitably affects MY gaming experience as various things are nerfed.... makes me a sad hero when I see that happen....an it always does. :(
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
I'm all for just focusing on making PvP fun for casual PvPers. The way CoH made teaming so fun that casual players teamed a lot and even the soloers still teamed once in a while.
I mean, I don't even think we can realistically successfully satisfy the hardcore PvPers with this game anyway, and they will never be a big portion of the game community. So...
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
PvE is going to be designed for casual players.
In that spirit, it would be counterproductive to design a PvP system that doesn't cater to casual players.
Hardcore players can play casual content without many problems.
The reverse is not true.
Casual players have a history of not being able to play (seriously) hardcore content without problems cropping up everywhere (starting with Gear Elitism).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I think the goal is to make PvP fun for us carebears. To make it interesting enough that even those who normally would shy away from it compelled to try it and pleasant enough to have some fun with it.
Redlynnes PvEvP idea would be a good start. I prefer a battle campaign where one has to apply strategy and logistic over quick and dirty arena fights.
And I like some of the ideas of the Kickstarter update that I quoted above. Especially points four and six.
AlienMafia
We're running out of popcorn.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I will admit I am half joking. I surfed around the GW2, SW: TOR, CO, and Wildstar PvP forums and I have seen some pretty nasty, toxic arguments started by ''hardcore'' PvPers (they were not what I would really call respectable players) over PvP topics. If anyone in those threads mentioned anything about disliking the overly competitive nature of MMO PvP or the unnecessary trash talk I'd see them branded as a ''carebear'' in an instant.
This was especially prominent on the topics on World PvP gankers [b]who would harass new players into quitting [/b]. I'd urge the devs to be a bit careful about there handling of World PvP as those guys kill it really fast.
Thanks for the carebears Paladin, I found the amusing.
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
We had a few toxic folks like that here, but then we got mods for these forums. Thanks for all you do mods!
There were actually player groups in CoH that specialized in helping new people get involved in PvP and easing them in. What a great community.
Someone should make an ubber PvP group in CoT who all look like Carebears and who help new players in PvP.
And the bonus is, when people PvP them, when they loose, they got stomped by a Carebears :P!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
My ideal solution to PvP griefers would be that zones with sufficiently "safe" levels of control for one group or another would have extremely strict, IC enforcement by NPCs.
An alternative, less satisfying aesthetically but perhaps more practical, would be to phase-shift players who get PvP'd without permission so that the PvPer gets to fight an NPC that looks like you in one phase while you don't get attacked and go about your business in the other.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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In Star Trek Online, the "redside" (ie. Klingon Defense Force) has a Fleet simply known as the HOBOs. It's the [b]House of Beautiful Orions[/b] and it is apparently one of the most elitist PvP Fleets in the entire game. It was always funny reading any of the PvP Forum threads and almost inevitably, a mention of being pwned by HOBOs would come up at some point. Not being conversant with the acronym until later, I kept thinking they were talking about "actual" [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo]hobo[/url] styled Players (ie. this) ...
[img]http://hobojeepers.tripod.com/images/Hobo.jpg[/img]
... instead of this ...
[img]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/c/ca/Orion_slavegirl_ENT.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20041031181901&path-prefix=en[/img]
Imagine how silly I felt when I realized my mistake.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I remember back in Wildstar that there was group like that on the server I played on (although they weren't forum famous) which was literally just a coalition of Chua. On the same server a coalition of Aurin started up to combat it.
Something similar happened in Guild Wars 2, a guild full of Asura went on a rampage in one the WvWvWvW matches. I hear that there was a guild full of Sylvari like that too although those guys just did it for fun.
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
I had an idea for a sort of challenge-mode Indirect PvP between heroes and villains, where there was a set of linked Parallel missions which could be run in a combination of race and point-gathering. Actions in one side of linked missions could trigger events on the other side, like clues, or more dangerous opposition and the final mission could result in a Doppelganger-match-up.
Gah, where did I put the chat-log... Found it. Read it if you're interested.
Be Well!
Fireheart
As a player who really doesn't care to PvP all that often, even I have to say, if you log into a world PvP server, then you better expect to get ganked by higher levels.
Most (not all) players HATE to lose. They can't stand it. That's why some players won't even pvp and that's why you have whining rage quitters in PvE. They can not handle losing. They think everything has to be handed to them and only feel like they tried. If they even care if they felt like they had to try more than press a button.
Hell, look at the thoughts on having non tab targetting "What? I wouldn't be as awesome at that! That makes it suck!"
It does kill the world pvp servers, but then, those players were never going to be good at world pvp anyways and constantly crying. Even at 50 you will find 50's who constantly lose, even with a good class, cry that they always lose, but don't accept that they just suck :p
Also, what might work, is not letting the n00b's Die. n00b's HP goes almost All the way down, but never to 0.
PvP gankers might eventually get tired of getting No Kills, and move along.
So basically, they can still harass n00b's, but PvP'ers cant gank n00bs anymore.
I know, its not a real solution, but as long as the n00bs movement speed cant be debuffed, it will at least let the n00bs get to the mission door thats in the PvP zone.
ohh.. or just have a Red Bubble machine at the entrance of a PvP zone. (respec tf's reactor)
Personal Force Field kinda thing. You cant be attacked, or attack others either, for as long as you're in the PvP zone.
i dont like timers for this, instead, just leave and come back to the PvP zone to remove the bubble. ;)
This way, you can have more and more PvE'ers entering PvP zones that just want be spectators. And maybe a PvE'er might SEE something (PvP strategy*) and say, "Hey that looks fun. But i bet if i DID THIS, instead of THAT, I might Win.. where s/he failed!"
etc, etc, etc...
*offers TMP a bag*
Caramel coated popcorn?
I think it is not about hating to loose, it is about the feeling of having no chance to win at all. If I take my first look at PvP with level ten and instantly get onehitted by a level 50 camping at the spawn point and picking of easy kills, that is not a very motivating experience. But most games today do not allow this kind of thing anymore, there is some kind of mechanic that makes sure everyone participating is on roughly the same level. And I would like to see it handled this way in City of Titans too.
If a level 50 character looses against another level 50, they should look at the battle and analyse what it was that made them loose. And then try to improve on that. Or, if they do not want to do that, accept that gracefully and keep away from PvP. Thats what I usually do, because PvP was not worth the effort. I played City of Heroes to wind down and relax, PvP (and most non tab-targeting games) tend to be very exiting and somewhat exhausting to me.
What we're basically talking about with respect to making PvP "fun" is finding ways to prevent CURB STOMPING.
Unfortunately, curb stomping is the de facto "best" way to win PvP in ANY game ... including real life. Don't believe me? Try World War I battle tactics for fighter pilots (1915-1918) which include [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke]attacking out of the sun[/url] so as to score an easy kill. After all, an opponent who never saw you coming stands little chance of surviving your alpha strike, no?
Curb stomping is the entire POINT of being a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper]Sniper[/url]. One life. One shot. One hit. One kill. How is that not curb stomping at its finest and most pure? "They never saw it coming" is the whole point of being a Sniper!
These behaviors and "rewards" for victory are fundamentally incompatible with anything even remotely approximating a "friendly" casual gameplay experience. They are, to put it politely, antithetical to casual gaming. Indeed, the vast majority of these behaviors and rewards (and attitudes towards playing the game) share more in common with Griefing than they do with anything else.
If you want to PvP, go play Team Fortress 2 ... or Counterstrike ... or any of the other PvP designed games on the market.
MMOPvP really doesn't work all that well when you pit the PCs against each other directly. A few "easy kill" strategies will emerge and then become the Flavor of the Month for how to defeat opponents in PvP ... and then that's all there is to do and be in PvP, a few cookie cutter builds that can curb stomp opponents and "RULE" the battlegrounds. If you're LUCKY there will be a sort of Rock, Paper, Scissors going on between the most popular cookie cutter builds ... which then inevitably leads to a drive towards "working the refs" so as to break the balance in your favor.
I am Scissors.
Paper is fine.
[b][i]NERF Rock!!![/i][/b]
The BEST possible way to design a PvP system that gives everyone a chance to fight back would be something akin to a [url=https://medium.com/war-is-boring/you-have-to-play-this-1-600-year-old-viking-war-game-cef088ae4e2d]Hnefatafl[/url] game that requires asymmetry in order to win, such as the "it takes 2 in order to defeat 1" rule. That way you in effect rule out soloists being able to gank other Players ... and exchange that for [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_Duo]Absolute Duos[/url] taking the field in order to gank other Players instead, and you're right back to square one.
It's just a measure vs counter-measure situation in which there is no way for the Developers to prevent ganking in an equitable fashion. That's because in PvP, at least one Player needs to be defeated ... and everyone wants to believe that only the OTHER Players ought to be defeated, not themselves.
Casual PvP in which the PCs compete against each other directly is simply a No Win Scenario in the context of PvP in a MMORPG for a game's Developers. Why? Because humans are CLEVER little bahstids and will do everything they can to tilt anything they can get their hands on in their favor ... which is inherently anti-thetical to "casual" gameplay.
PvP is a heavily "evolutionary" style of gaming in which the strong survive and the weak are culled. The stakes are high and the pressures enormous ... even when there's a near instant respawn option ... simply because of Keeping Score.
Just about the only way to keep PvP "friendly" in an MMORPG is to keep it Low Power and "equitable" where the only variables in the equation are what the Player DOES as opposed to what the PC's GOT. [url=http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Friday_Night_Fights]Friday Night Fights[/url] in Tabula Rasa were a shining example of this. Barriers to entry were for all intents and purposes non-existent and the playing field was kept as egalitarian as possible to encourage "friendly" sparring matches between contestants. This ensured that victories were won by Player Choices, instead of by Unfair Advantages.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
One of the ideas we have is to use our level lens that effectively "greys out" lower level characters to higher level characters, making them unaffected by pvp effects. It provides a clear delineation in who can affect who. The only difference being exemplar characters trying to "hide" their level by teaming up with lower level characters. Go ahead and team up and take on lower levels with your exemplar effected character but don't expect to be safe from higher level opponents either. Sidekick up and better be on your game with you wan to take on the higher level characters.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
What if there were a COST associated with curb-stomping?
This is an incomplete thought, and likely has gaping holes through which exploits could be driven, but as a conversation-starter...
What if it cost IGC to attack lower-level PCs, and the more they were below you in level, the more IGC it cost? Narratively, it could make a certain amount of sense if IGC is a representation of reputation/favor/accolades. Heroes picking on the weak are looked at as less than heroically celebratory, and villains who pick too much on the weak are seen as cowardly (and thus less worthy of respect).
Maybe the victim of the cub-stomping even GETS some portion of that IGC as they get some sympathy or even respect for standing up to somebody so much more powerful than they are.
The obvious exploit here that I can see is emptying your IGC reserves before going in for a bullying run. If there were other costs - perhaps XP (which could de-level you) or even HP or End (which could be suicidal if anybody steps up to stand up for your victim) - when you lack the IGC to "pay," that could resolve some of it.
(Would have to have it be solely based on STARTING the fight, though; a high-level PC who is attacked by a low-level guy doesn't lose IGC for putting the twerp in his place.)
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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Why not design something similar to smite gameplay wise? IMO the moba style is a pretty fair system that forces players to to rely heavily on teamwork and skill to accomplish their goal, which is what competition is about right? That's why these games do so well I think and why they are so much fun. Maybe allow players to choose three powers out of their pool and give each archetype ults that they can unlock the more "pvp experience" they acquire from playing games. Start everyone in the arena at the same level "0" allowing them to only be able to use one of the 3 powers they chose to enter the match with and let them advance in level during the match and each time they level in the arena they can pick to either unlock one of their powers or increase one of the powers levels stacking up to a certain amount. Give people temp power ups that they can purchace with currency they earn within the pvp area. It could be a fun and dynamic pvp system that would be at least a little bit more fair than the typical mmo pvp. Also what would make it different from the competitors is that players can play with different builds and power combinations in order to figure out what works best for them while advancing by unlocking different ults (each with it's own pros and cons to keep the game balanced). Interesting, fresh, fair and fun. I wouldn't even mind if it was a system that was implemented after launch. I just think it's a way that both casual and hardcore players can play the way that works for them that relies on skill and their personal play style while maintaining a sense of competition.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMcQdRLgVpMwXi_3yTCN5iA/videos
Would a PvP player be able to HALT XP Gain.. so it doesnt show him/her as being above a certain level? And then Gank n00bs while pretending to be n00b him/her self? :D
I could be mistaken, but I am under the impression that actual curb-stomping requires more than just a skill disparity; it requires a level-based one. I do not doubt that an experienced player will beat out newbies all the time, but that it would be a gank-a-second spawn-point camping romp that doesn't let any newbies even try to play seems impossible. Am I wrong?
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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I'm the wrong person to ask. I would be considered a n00b in PvP. :(
I was just wondering if many PvP players would keep an ALT handy that wouldn't get penalized for being too high in level, because of the level Gap. :P
Everyone has their limits. I have mine. There are two things MWM can do to make me instantly vanish.
1. Declare that City of Titans will be an open world PvP game
2. Partner with NC Soft
It has been my understanding that both of these are pretty much impossible, but I'm seeing this thread devolve into ways to make open-world PvP practical. Some of your suggestions Segev, official or not, imply that open-world PvP is a consideration.
I know the game will have PvP. Nothing I can do about that. So keep it in Arenas and battlegrounds or on a separate server. If you have PvP then you will have PvP bullies and thugs. They are part and parcel of the PvP population. Not every PvP fan is a thug or a bully, but far too many of them are. So don't bother trying to come up with game mechanics that discourage them. You won't discourage them, just challenge them, because for the PvP crowd, defeating the game mechanics is just another form of PvP.
Are you making a Street Fighter style game or an RPG style game? Because the only thing the PvP crowd really likes is Street Fighter style games. They don't care about narrative and they don't care about signature NPCs. They don't like to level, craft, run missions, or deal with common items. The only thing the PvP crowd really enjoys is logging into a game, making a top level character, outfitting it with every power-up the game offers, then stocking their inventory with heals and attack boosts. They don't want a story. They want a battle arena with pretty graphics and lots of blood spatter.
Keep the PvP completely separate from the main game. A good RPG and a good PvP game are opposite ends of the spectrum and there is no human way to engineer a middle ground. Guild Wars is closest compromise I've ever seen. EVE Online and WoW both compromise the quality of the RPG in order to preserve the PvP aspects (although in both games the PvP crowd declares the opposite is true, thus proving my point: no compromise is humanly possible).
As long as there is PvP there will be gankers, griefers, thugs, and bullies. So keep the PvP game off in its own little world or don't include it all. Because no matter how you design the game mechanics, the gankers and griefers will find a way around it. They are just as smart as the game designers are and just as determined to ply their craft.
My suggestion for making PvP fun would be to include in the game package instructions for setting up a private PvP server and then not allow PvP on the MWM servers. I won't go so far as to demand such a solution, but to my mind it is the best solution possible.
*goes back to sitting on the sidelines eating popcorn*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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I'd rather have large scale, instanced PVP matches or events that are scheduled well in advance and well advertized, approved, authorized, organized and manged by the game devs than have a zone or instance that is persistent where people can go to do PVP all the time. The "sandbox PVP" zones in CoX were often empty to the point where you could waltz right into Bloody Bay and refill your jellomen pretty much any time. Open world type PVP actually requires many other players to show up and actively participate in it for it to be fun or even worthwhile to do. For this reason I'd rather NOT have a persistent "all PVP all the time" gankification zone set up. Those only frustrate everyone because the people who go there thinking they might get into some "fair" PVP get ganked and then stop going, then the people who go there to victimize lowbies have nobody to harass, so they eventually stop going too. It's a self-destructing piece of content that behaves that way.
If you had a PVP event, you could have like a big free-for-all type thing, and maybe side events with different rules and so forth, you could make a whole night out of it. If all you do is build a public playground and walk away, the bullies beat on the little kids, who then get scared away, and then since no little kids are going there to get bullied, the bullies go somewhere else and the whole thing goes unused because it was a breeding ground for it's own demise from the start.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Alternatively, make the PvP "arena" a single boxing ring and enforce a Exemplar/Power Down that reduces all PCs who enter it to being Level 1. The only Powers that you can use are Brawl and Rest, neither of which "counts" any Enhancements that have been slotted into them.
Congratulations, you've now recreated Friday Night Fights from Tabula Rasa. By removing builds and equipment from the equation, you are left with a "pure" and level PvP playing field. To quote [url=http://princessbride.wikia.com/wiki/Fezzik]Fezzik[/url] ... "no tricks, no weapons, just skill against skill alone."
[youtube]lISBP_fPg1s[/youtube]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Taking off any dev hat I may have, here, and simply discussing preferences as a person...
The reason I like the concept of PvP is that it adds to verisimilitude. Two heroes who mistake each others' actions for villainy might fight over whether it's right to interrogate a prisoner using intimidation tactics or threats. A villain might be in danger of being attacked and taken in before he can do any harm if he walks through a well-patrolled area full of reasonably-comparable heroes.
The lack of real-world consequences (or even in-game ones beyond the annoyance of losing) means violence is, however, a lot easier to resort to for far less reason, up to and including griefing and bullying. It is a sad reality that the protections that enable people to walk through the real world without worrying about some jerk randomly ganking them just for grins don't really exist in an MMO. He will cause more nuissance than he'll suffer from others' retaliation, as a general rule.
So while I am not a huge fan of PvP, personally, as a play-style, it's something my ideal MMO would have for immersive reasons. But solving the very real problems that it being "just a game" brings up is a non-trivial design challenge. Possibly an insoluble one, or at least one which costs too much time and (maybe) money to resolve.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Ohh, you're gonna go see BvS also, when it finally comes in theaters? :D
[img]http://i.imgur.com/k4wYJNS.png[/img]
Egad, what is that? The Fortress of Solitude Mobile?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Greyhawk, Warcabbit promised us in the update concerning PvP that no one will be ever forced to do PvP. I expect that if there will be something like open world PvP it will be in an instance seperated from players who do not want to do PvP.
Honestly, Chris Nolan's interpeteation of Batman made for decent movies, but always felt disappointing as...[i]Batman[/i]...to me. And I was grossly disappointed in Man of Steel on a number of levels, from the gaping plot holes to the ardent idiocy of the villains (who carried villain and idiot balls bigger than even Kryptonian super-strength could handle) to just the sheer lack of a sense of Superman as more than a vaguely superman-shaped hole in the setting into which the audience was expected to project characterization...
I'm not sure I will see the BvS movie. I might, if I hear good things about it or have a group of friends or family who want to go. But I don't know that I'll go out of my way for it on my own recognizance. :/
Now, when Avengers: Age of Ultron comes out, I am definitely going to see that!
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I actually like this idea...although I am sure the hard core pvp'rs would hate it given they are restricted in level. so perhaps go the other way. just have a open world zone with pvp only events happening. if one enters the zone they are sidekicked up to the max level for the game. while a level one would be at a serious disadvantage, only having a power or two, at least they couldn't be totally curb stomped....although they would still get beat silly given their lack of offence/defence.
game wide open world pvp? pass...exception being if there is an option to "turn on" OW!pvp (Open World PVP)...meaning you are now targetable by anyone. obviously, this same button would also "turn off" OW!pvp....the default setting being OFF.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
I just don't like it because I can't understand the mentality of purposefully targeting players that are at a extreme disadvantage. It comes off as cowardly to me. I do have issues with the players who are absolutely awful at PvP and constantly cry about it too but they are not whom I was talking about within that comment.
I used to play FPS games extensively and I experienced a lot of the latter type of players (hell it still occurs every now an then when I play Team Fortress 2 out of boredom) so I know what you are talking about but they are not the same as gankers or pubstompers (the FPS term for when a group of highly skilled players goes into a server that is full of new players or low skilled players).
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
Believe it was Redlynne who posted it, but really it's just typical human behavior. Most people can't handle losing. Either they're poor sports about it when they do or they just don't play. They target the weak because it's the easy kill (and thus win).
Let's go with team play. All equal level. Who gets targeted? The weak defender who can't take more than 2 hits, not the tougher scrapper.
Yes there's a few who want a somewhat fair fight or some such when they PvP, but I'd say most just want an easy win. It's why you get people who can't even finish a match if they know they're going to lose. "Can't win this, we've lost, no point in finishing the match. Going to drop here."
Though, going back at some comments made in this thread...casual does not mean people can't try to optimize. CoH was considered casual and people still optimized and other people whined they didn't want to optimize that they just came to relax and play easy mode.
It's why you would see people keep the difficulty down low, for easy times. There are just a lot of people who say they're casuals who really mean "I want my game on super easy mode" :p
And anything that requires me to change my concept character or takes away powers from my concept character is a terrible idea. :p
Not all concepts are created equal and if someone needs to make some god awful mish mash of a concept (or just not have one) to have their optimal best build with a garbage concept (and sorry, I found most builds in CoH and CO that were based on best power picks over anything else...even if concept was put around them...were generally the suckiest of concepts), but damn if I don't want to have to choose new powers just to PvP.
Red, I agree that a blindside team attack on a weak target is a good tactic, in real life,
It's also a the act of a coward and I'll never consider it heroic.
This is a game about superheroes and that tactic hardly ever works in the comics
(I did not say never)
unless it's a hero taking out the villains security on the way into the lair.
(even then half the time the villain expected it and has a trap waiting)
When a superhero get's ambushed he usually gets knocked around for a short time
until he "gets his bearings" "gets his second wind" or just gets away.
Then the real fight starts.
I think that's the reality we'd like to see in a superhero game,
I'm not sure how we can hope to achieve that,
but unless we do, I don't think there's much hope to make PVP fun.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I will say this, one of the reasons I never really got into PvP much wasn't losing, it was that the fights rarely felt heroic the way PvE did in CoH. Don't know if that's even a possibility, though.
I had the most fun on my fire tank because, even though I didn't win too many fights, surviving 3 guys ganking you does feel decently heroic.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Maybe if the game threw that back in their faces
by giving people stacking buffs when they're attacked by more than one opponent.
That way the more people there are attacking you the more powerful you are
and the more likely you'll kick all of their asses.
Of course that would only be in PVP.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I think we need to avoid a free for all zone. Always thought that distracted from Heroes & Villains aspect of the game. If heroes want to battle heroes, take it to a duel/arena.
Anti-heroes still don't tend to just attack other heroes.
I agree who CAN target who in pvp needs to be alignment based.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I want a battleground with sharks with FREEKIN' LASERs!
PvE combat felt "heroic" because the PC(s) were always outnumbered. The minimum "gearing ratio" of Foes vs PC was the basic 3 to 1 (ie. 3 Minions equals 1 Hero). This meant that every PvE encounter stacked the [i]quantity[/i] deck against the Player. You didn't get that in PvP. Everything was either 1 on 1 (in which case you MIGHT emerge victorious) or else it was Many on One (in which case you had NO CHANCE whatsoever). Either way, the "secret sauce" of always feeling like you were the underdog fighting against insurmountable odds of superior quantities of cannon fodder (that you routinely mopped the floor with) was gone, and that changed the whole "flavor" of the experience of playing the game.
There's a reason why PvE "does not play nice" with PvP.
Star Trek Online has SPACE DINOSAURS with [b]FREEKIN' LASERs![/b] on their heads in the Voth Ground Battlezone.
[img]http://images-cdn.perfectworld.com/www/1b/0a/1b0a963b0fe8e023bc504900db52b12e1381948772.jpg[/img]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Wait, I am a genius! Make PvP a purchasable option, and you can PvP anywhere anytime as long as the other guy also purchased the option.
It comes with a toggle for on/off.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
How easy is it to toggle off?
Would people turn it off to keep from loosing?
Any reaction to big stacking buffs when you're attacked by more than one opponent?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Ironically, Tabula Rasa ran into exactly this problem. Although in that case, what people did was Log Out to avoid losing.
At first, Tabula Rasa had no log out timer. You hit log out and would instantly go to the main menu for character selection. Needless to say, it didn't take long for that to become the "go to" way to avoid being defeated in PvP.
Did I ever mention that PvPers are [i]clever little bahstids[/i] and that expecting them to play "honorably" can be a Fool's Errand?
Anyway, the Devs noticed and instituted a 10 second countdown timer for EVERYONE when logging out.
Oh man ... the supertankers that could have floated all the way to China on the tears that fell because of that one!
The hilarious thing was, City of Heroes (which was 4 years old by that point) still had a [b]30 second[/b] log out wait timer, which few people griped about ... yet a mere [b]10 seconds[/b] was The End Of The World and a massive time sink that didn't need to be there ... blah blah blah blah ... QQ ad museum exhibit.
Fortunately, the sane majority said "suck it up you whiny PvPerz" and the game was better for the change.
As for being able to detoggle PvP flagging, I'd defer to the World of Warcraft system as being a good example to follow. You have to have done nothing PvP [i]relevant[/i] for 5 minutes before you have PERMISSION to toggle off your own PvP flag. Until then, you can't toggle out of PvP Flag On mode ... but once the time limit has expired, you have to affirmatively toggle out of PvP mode.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Is anyone else running out of popcorn?
It's been 4 (going on 5) days. Too early to call "shenanigans" yet?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
But then again it is also (at least on PvE servers) a toggle that you have to consciously HIT to enable PvP mode on as well. So the toggle on/toggle off is normally not something you do accidentally.
There are special area's of zones (and a couple of dedicated zones as well) where your PvP mode gets enabled whilst you are in there, but as soon as you leave the area this special mode generally ends as well. If I remember correctly on the detoggle that is.
If not, then this can be something that could be enabled.
*supplies a fresh batch of popcorn*
Buttery, caramel, or plain?
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Given the topic at hand, buttered fingers seems appropriate ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I think it's AlienMafia's Last Theorem. The margin wasn't big enough for it.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Perhaps if AlienMafia re-Fermats the document?
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
We have all the time in the world.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Why are we getting out popcorn again? Are the rude hardcore players coming?
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
Yeah, popcorn counts as a MAG 4 Placate. Quite useful.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
What are the rewards/penalties one might expect for winning/losing PvP, particularly (for the sake of argument) open-world PvP? If it's [i]only[/i] the inconvenience of being defeated and having to respawn (which, I'm sure, those who've fallen victim to griefers will say is not insignificant), what does logging out to "avoid losing PvP" accomplish?
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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Mainly denying your opponent the victory and the associated reward and to keep your statistics positive. Sometimes there is a ranking system that shows how good somebody is in PvP and it counts victorys and defeats to do so. And if you manage to log out before you get beaten, you could keep that rating at 100%. In other cases there might be a good reward for defeating other players. And you do not want them to get that because then they will get even better.
In Guild Wars 2 it was very common to log out during the largescale PvP battles, they called World versus World. Just because you suffered minor gear damage and had to spend a little money to fix it and your opponent had a chance to get a token that you could buy very useful things with. So now, if you log out or have a disconnect during a fight, the game counts that as you being defeated, damages your armour and spawns loot for the winner. It is not nice to those who have an unstable internet connection, but it prevented a lot of griefing in PvP.
This varies too much from game to game.
Some treat them as a normal NPC mob (so you can be corpse looted) others treat them as a normal PC, so some currency and possibly a PvP only item.
Penalties are the same as if you were defeated by an NPC.
On, PC, in Street Fighter people log off as soon as they are about to Loose to you.
You are Denied the Satisfaction of the Closing Victory, which in a way makes you feel like you Loose!
And you dont get any of their Points. As if the battle didnt take place. :<
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