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How instanced maps affect PvP

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Potato-Girl
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How instanced maps affect PvP

I've been thinking about update 13's use of instanced maps to separate PvE and PvP players in the same zone/district. That should solve most (if not all) of my concerns regarding possible exploits of the conventional PvP-flagging mechanism.

I do think entering/exiting a PvP instance should probably be limited to only certain areas, such as a zone boundary or special cross-over points. To me, one of the fun aspects of "open range" factional PvP is trying to keep the enemy players out of certain areas, or ambushing them as they travel across the zone. If a player can simply switch to PvP from anywhere in a PvE instance, instantly appearing int he same location in the PvP zone, we'd lose that aspect.

I admit that movement powers like flight, super-leap, and teleport make area-denial and ambushes more difficult, but it is still possible, and great fun when you can pull it off.

chase
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One concern that I have is

One concern that I have is attaining 'critical mass.' If every zone can be a PvP instance- and only PvP'ers actively looking for this sort of PvP at that moment are using those instances- will there be enough PvP'ers in any one zone at any one time to have the "critical mass" to bring sustainable enjoyment?

HarvesterOfEyes
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That's a function of the PvP

That's a function of the PvP population. If few care to play the game, what then?

Get yourself right; the world has enough problems.

Zombie Man
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Remember, Zone PvP isn't the

Remember, Zone PvP isn't the only type of PvP. If there aren't enough on (at the moment) for a Zone PvP to sustain itself, there's still arenas and games and duels.

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chase
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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

Remember, Zone PvP isn't the only type of PvP. If there aren't enough on (at the moment) for a Zone PvP to sustain itself, there's still arenas and games and duels.

Understood. My concern is just that part of the PvP design might need to include methods to facilitate generating "critical mass." If we spread people out too broadly, then nobody has a good experience.

If you're in a PvP-instance of a regular city zone, you're hoping to run a few quests & possibly have a chance-encounter PvP experience while doing so, or you're hoping to hunt questers in that zone. If you never have said chance encounter, you have a negative experience, and while you still may be able to PvP at an arena, you have to wonder about the negativity and frustration that is built up in the zone in the first place.

City of Heroes had what- 4 PvP-enabled zones? and even had badges and temp powers that encourage non-PvP'ers to enter them, and they often weren't filled sufficiently for a reasonable experience. If you make every zone have a PvP-enabled instance, how will they be used?

Personally, while I enjoyed the casual PvP and spent many hours in the CoH zones, I wouldn't use a PvP instance when doing my PvE quests for the simple reason that it is too self-gimping. These battles are very number-oriented, and if I'm PvE'ing and then attacked, I'm not going to be at my prime HP, I'll have some of my best powers recharging, and my buffs are already midway through their timer. I've set myself up for failure unless I'm very selective in what PvE foes I pull, avoiding any foe of any meaningful challenge. Why subject myself to that? I'll be in the PvE zones where I can focus on that, and then be in the PvP zones only when I'm looking for zone PvP. If everyone does that, then that again reduces the chances of "critical mass" being reached in any one of the 20-odd zones.

Part of the PvP design is not just giving them a space and saying "PvP is enabled here" but doing things to try to encourage the critical mass to form... or let people find where the critical mass IS.

Some things to possibly consider:
1) Don't gimp the People that choose to actually PvE in the PvP-enabled instance. What would be the impact of having PvP hit points (for example) differ from PvE hit points? It might mean that I could safely engage NPC foes while waiting for a PvP'er to show up without essentially handing victory to the other player, but what would be the downsides?

2) List the number of participants in a PvP instance, so people don't have to spend time to learn which are active and which are dead.

3) Help PvP'ers more effectively encounter one another in a PvP zone. it could be cues indicating the direction some "commotion" is coming from that would otherwise be out of visible range or a scanner reporting the activity. If you're looking for an immersive reason- there are celebrity sighting feeds, so why not hero feeds- players tap into them to learn the last known sighting of a generic hero.

4) Good PvP should be a social event, not a rage-fest. You want to encourage the social element, because if someone's defeated by a friend, they'll consider that part of the fun and continue. if they're defeated by an asshole, they may just decide its time to move to a different zone. Do not gimp chat. People assume the worst about their foe when nothing is said at all. Let them chat. Yes, there will be some trash talk-- that can be part of a friendly sporting event, or not.

5) Consider ways to reward and recognize good sportsmanship. I've heard about PvP games that let you rate your opponent's "fun" -- both the victor and the vanquished -- If I beat you and you felt I'd cheated, unfairly taken advantage of your situation, etc, mark me down. If I found you a fun opponent that I'd like to encounter again, mark me up.

You can use this feedback for a number of things:
- if you use timers to prevent someone from being ganked repeatedly by the same person, you can make the timer shorter if both parties had fun. If each enjoyed the other's competition, there's less reason to keep them apart.
- you can offer players warnings. If someone you've rated down a dozen times is in a zone you're about to enter, you may both find yourselves having a more enjoyable time if you chose another instance/zone.
- you could use this in leaderboards (properly filtered to remove the outliers and the rating-farmers) by offering non-weighted "PvP leaders" and those weighted by their fun-index-- sometimes the "best" PvP'er as it matters to the health of your PvP community isn't the winningest.
- by seeing the other players' feedback, you may provide a positive feedback loop. I may not realize that the "witty banter" I provided and use all the time with my standard PvP friends was taken too personally by this random encounter. If I know it does, I may be willing to tone it down just so he'll stay in the zone and keep participating with me.

jag40
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chase wrote:
chase wrote:

Zombie Man wrote:
Remember, Zone PvP isn't the only type of PvP. If there aren't enough on (at the moment) for a Zone PvP to sustain itself, there's still arenas and games and duels.

Understood. My concern is just that part of the PvP design might need to include methods to facilitate generating "critical mass." If we spread people out too broadly, then nobody has a good experience.
If you're in a PvP-instance of a regular city zone, you're hoping to run a few quests & possibly have a chance-encounter PvP experience while doing so, or you're hoping to hunt questers in that zone. If you never have said chance encounter, you have a negative experience, and while you still may be able to PvP at an arena, you have to wonder about the negativity and frustration that is built up in the zone in the first place.
City of Heroes had what- 4 PvP-enabled zones? and even had badges and temp powers that encourage non-PvP'ers to enter them, and they often weren't filled sufficiently for a reasonable experience. If you make every zone have a PvP-enabled instance, how will they be used?
Personally, while I enjoyed the casual PvP and spent many hours in the CoH zones, I wouldn't use a PvP instance when doing my PvE quests for the simple reason that it is too self-gimping. These battles are very number-oriented, and if I'm PvE'ing and then attacked, I'm not going to be at my prime HP, I'll have some of my best powers recharging, and my buffs are already midway through their timer. I've set myself up for failure unless I'm very selective in what PvE foes I pull, avoiding any foe of any meaningful challenge. Why subject myself to that? I'll be in the PvE zones where I can focus on that, and then be in the PvP zones only when I'm looking for zone PvP. If everyone does that, then that again reduces the chances of "critical mass" being reached in any one of the 20-odd zones.
Part of the PvP design is not just giving them a space and saying "PvP is enabled here" but doing things to try to encourage the critical mass to form... or let people find where the critical mass IS.
Some things to possibly consider:
1) Don't gimp the People that choose to actually PvE in the PvP-enabled instance. What would be the impact of having PvP hit points (for example) differ from PvE hit points? It might mean that I could safely engage NPC foes while waiting for a PvP'er to show up without essentially handing victory to the other player, but what would be the downsides?
2) List the number of participants in a PvP instance, so people don't have to spend time to learn which are active and which are dead.
3) Help PvP'ers more effectively encounter one another in a PvP zone. it could be cues indicating the direction some "commotion" is coming from that would otherwise be out of visible range or a scanner reporting the activity. If you're looking for an immersive reason- there are celebrity sighting feeds, so why not hero feeds- players tap into them to learn the last known sighting of a generic hero.
4) Good PvP should be a social event, not a rage-fest. You want to encourage the social element, because if someone's defeated by a friend, they'll consider that part of the fun and continue. if they're defeated by an asshole, they may just decide its time to move to a different zone. Do not gimp chat. People assume the worst about their foe when nothing is said at all. Let them chat. Yes, there will be some trash talk-- that can be part of a friendly sporting event, or not.
5) Consider ways to reward and recognize good sportsmanship. I've heard about PvP games that let you rate your opponent's "fun" -- both the victor and the vanquished -- If I beat you and you felt I'd cheated, unfairly taken advantage of your situation, etc, mark me down. If I found you a fun opponent that I'd like to encounter again, mark me up.
You can use this feedback for a number of things:
- if you use timers to prevent someone from being ganked repeatedly by the same person, you can make the timer shorter if both parties had fun. If each enjoyed the other's competition, there's less reason to keep them apart.
- you can offer players warnings. If someone you've rated down a dozen times is in a zone you're about to enter, you may both find yourselves having a more enjoyable time if you chose another instance/zone.
- you could use this in leaderboards (properly filtered to remove the outliers and the rating-farmers) by offering non-weighted "PvP leaders" and those weighted by their fun-index-- sometimes the "best" PvP'er as it matters to the health of your PvP community isn't the winningest.
- by seeing the other players' feedback, you may provide a positive feedback loop. I may not realize that the "witty banter" I provided and use all the time with my standard PvP friends was taken too personally by this random encounter. If I know it does, I may be willing to tone it down just so he'll stay in the zone and keep participating with me.

yup to all these points here.

Although, many cases in PVP a player give their feedback about either real or perceived insult, and instead of toning it down the player turn it up or dismiss it as the person being too sensitive. All that do is create more tension and less fun. But in a way the pvp community do play a big part in the health of pvp. If they act like buttholes, insulting people or no respect for others, then pvp will rot and stay small.

Trahs talk and banter- What many don't seem to realize is that trash talk and banter is not one size fit all. Whiel among friends, and people that know each other, they can tell when it's a joke or just a harmless ribbing. In some cicles they can go all day talking about how they screw each other's mothers (very common talk in COX pvp) and no one get offended but go outside that circle and say that, it can be viewed as a grave offense by another, and it's nto because the person is being over sensitive or care bear. They don't know you and you don't know their situation. For all the trash talker could know is that their mother just died from cancer and last thing they want to hear or need to hear is how someone is going into great detail of how they screw her in all holes every day. Of course it happens and when the person protest the polite thing to ease the tension would simply be "sorry for offending you. Not my intentions." Instead usually it went "well stop being overly sensitive. I'm still screwing your mom because your dad wasn't up to the task."
Trash talking is an art that seemingly everyone wants to do, but 98% of people have no clue of how to do it. First thing is to know your audience. Second thing is to know your audience, third thing know your audience, fourth thing, keep it funny, general population funny.