Just saw these trying to do a (what I guess) is a very early mission and getting completely lost because they didn't pay enough attention:
[youtube]QjIjIaGy5jw[/youtube]
This got me thinking, how much should CoT be guiding players in the early levels after the tutorial so that players who skip or rush through it aren't completely lost?
Now a big difference to STO would be that CoT won't have such different environments between guiding the players character vs. their ship so in essence only a little bit of "hand holding" in the form of pointing in the right direction and a few tips (mainly for new mechanics and/or "unlocks") would most likely be more than enough.
And of course there should be a setting where you can completely turn this off so that you aren't "pestered" with it for your umpteenth character even though you know it by heart.
IMO, you have got to consider that there may be (hopefully will be) players coming into this game that aren't folks who play a lot of other games. You do have to have a basic mission where you sort of hand-hold a new player while they learn to move, attack, slot an initial power, or whatever it may be. I grant it gets tedious for experienced players, but new folks need to be made welcome and made to feel comfortable.
I recently played the Secret Wars Legends game, and they way they provide a bit of lore and walk you through the use of powers and the like was pretty good. I like that the "intro" mission is essentially broken up into a couple parts, the second where you are in your faction zone and can explore, etc. while still having the mission to find the base of operations and then slot (and can test) your primary/secondary powers.
Breaking it up into a couple parts keeps it from being too long and monotonous, and provides a means for new players to explore an area with no foes that they will be coming back to from time to time to get assignments. The veteran players can just fast pace through it since they will know exactly where to go and what to do to move on from there.
(insert pithy comment here)
I remember when I first played SWG, I was dropped into Mos Eisley with the clothes on my back, 1500 credits and a level 1 blaster.
The instructions were little more than "Have fun!".
With where the bar was set for me, I was really taken aback by the tutorial missions of CO and STO and thought they were a bit much.
Some people, however needed a lot of hand-holding. I can still "hear" the cries on ESD of "Where's Sulu?" (so frequent it became a meme).
There's always going to be people that need a LOT of help but too much hand-holding can be a turn-off for people that don't need or want it.
Perhaps in CoT we could start the tutorial with a few big buttons offering different levels of assistance and then move them off to the side afterward so you can change your mind if you picked wrong.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
I enjoyed how City of Heroes made it possible to skip the tutorial. When they went back and added badges to the tutorial (making it mandatory for badge addicts!) that sort of messed up the original design, but then they corrected that with Ouroboros "flashback" missions, so it all worked out in the end.
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I used to waft in and out a lot with CoX. I think I did the tutorial, on purpose, like 4 times all tolled. One time, just because I had been off for a few months, I jumped on my main, realized I had forgotten a lot of the controls, so I made a new toon, did the tutorial to get caught up, and was like "Wait, this isn't the outbreak I remember..." but I still learned it over. I like being able to skip the tutorial, but I like being able to do it more than once when I want to as well.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I can't remember which game it was, but as you ran through the various steps of the tutorial, you would get gear items as a reward and when you were done with the tutorial you had a good complete set of starting gear. If you skipped the tutorial, all you got was a basic weapon and some skivvies.
I liked that, because veteran players really don't need more than that to start and rookies appreciate the little bit of help it provides.
Likewise with CoT, there could be augments and refinements awarded as part of the tutorial and learning how to select a power and then slot an augment into it would be part of the tutorial learning experience. I think it would also be nice if your account was awarded a costume item and a pet of some sort during the tutorial. This way players would only need to do it once to unlock the costume item and pet for the rest of their characters. And as far as pets are concerned, I think a reference bot would be a great choice, such that you could click on it and go to a UI screen for maps, mission briefings, case files and to contact your informant network.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Whoever those people are in the video, they are talking head idiots (sorry, I didn't watch all 8min of it). They are trying to get views/viewers. The haphazard approach to everything is just there to rile up the viewers to get them (or keep them) engaged so they can tell them how to do it 'right'.
As far as hand holding the players...
I agree with Huckleberry's comments about allowing the user to decide what level of engagement they want in the tutorial.
If CoT goes a similar route as CoX, I think it will be important that the intro scenario be really well scripted. I remember the CoV prison breakout being well crafted and on rails that the user could not deviate from and get lost. One of the problems with intro scenarios is that you only ever get to do it once per character. If the user forgets or gets flustered and doesn't remember all of the mechanics of playing the character they can get stuck not knowing how to solve the problem (or worse oblivious that they are missing something). The easiest option is usually to ask a friend. If that option isn't available, do a web search. If that doesn't answer the question, post on the forums or query a GM.
A solution is to have an in-game menu option/button that gives you a mission to go to an easily accessible low level starting point (hall of justice, den of thieves, etc). You'd have a way point to get you there. The quest could be to go into an instanced door (or heck, just get teleported there if you are hopelessly lost). Inside that instance you can walk through any/all basic tutorials for anything to refresh your memory.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
In a few other threads there's been requests for a system similar to CO's Powerhouse.
For anyone not familiar, it's an instanced place where you could train abilities (later updates let you train anywhere) and respec. There were several training areas where you could try out your powers before "locking in" your respec by leaving the Powerhouse.
If we had something similar, it would be nice to also have a lite version of the tutorial anyone could hop into to refresh their memory without having to run the whole tutorial again; either on a new toon rolled expressly for that purpose or through an Auroboros-type system.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
A skippable tutorial would be nice, and whomever mentioned the Testing Area for new powers before picking them, that would also be certainly appreciated. All good ideas.
I am picturing a tutorial that is not an immersive experience, but is rather like formal training. It breaks down the fourth wall and literally tells you that you are playing a game.
Then, when the tutorial is finished, the camera backs away and your screenshot appears to be literally the screen on the monitor of a computer. And as the camera backs further away, there is your character, in costume, standing up from the computer desk. Your character turns around and you are given some dialogue options with some techie who is standing behind you with a clipboard asking your opinion about the "game".
Then you step outside and see [b]Titan City[/b] in all its sunrising glory, you get an alert that something is happening and you are out the door, off onto your first mission.
I went with this idea because it doesn't assume any origin or alignment for you. You are just a subject matter expert.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Most of the game PORTAL is Tutorial. It just was written and designed in such a way it never dawns on you that it's almost all Tutorial.
I would love to see a tutorial that like that for CoT. Where it's fun and entertaining enough you want to do it more then once.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I agree - have the tutorial be an actual mission(s) or event(s) that introduce gameplay mechanics organically - not a dry instructional course.
Say there is a bank robbery/hostage situation taking place - give the player a taste of combat and stealth (or different ways to approach the mission), and introduce concepts like momentum, augmentations, refinements and alignment (different dialogue choices and how they can affect your character) as they play through it.
Add in an in-game help/tooltips, possibly an online manual as well, and between that and the inevitable "COT Wiki" people should be alright.
You're -basically- right that the issue of pre-Issue2 characters getting the [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Isolator_Badge]Isolator badge[/url] eventually "worked out in the end". But that glosses over the fact that the semi-reasonable Ouroboros flashback solution to this took 3 YEARS to finally happen (the rough time between Issues 2 and 11) and completely ignores the first so-called attempt to fix this via the "RV Isolator" debacle which was arguably one of the most sadistic (and I don't use that word lightly) scenarios I've ever seen devised by a Dev (in this case Positron) for his players.
I doubt there will ever be a clearer "lessons learned" case for the CoT Devs to learn. This is the very definition of "this is kind of thing you don't ever want to repeat again". Trapping a badge behind the wall of the no-return tutorial was bad enough - coming up with RV Isolator as a "solution" to that mistake was the equivalent of someone accidentally shooting someone in the arm with a gun and then "apologizing" for that by then shooting the same person in the face on purpose.
For what it's worth I take every opportunity the Isolator badge gets mentioned to remind everyone of the specific failures in that case in the hopes no Dev will ever repeat the same mistakes again.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It would be interesting if there was more than one 'Tutorial' mission.
What if the 'Tutorial' was a sort of 'UI' (or, to re-use a previous term, an 'overlay') that could run on top of any of a dozen beginning missions? It might inject some pauses for instruction, or extra goals and way-points, into the regular mission structure? Then, a player that opts to skip the Tutorial doesn't 'lose' a mission they might otherwise do?
Be Well!
Fireheart
I like both ideas - a tutorial in the form of an optional dedicated mission or as a "extra help GUI" option that includes a bunch of extra pop-ups and tool tips that might not appear in "normal" mode. My only serious concern (carried over from my last post on this thread) is that if there's going to be a dedicated tutorial mission there should be nothing (like a badge) trapped in it such that there's no reasonable alternative way to get it. No "one-time" content/reward should ever be trapped in a place that you cannot return to.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I always thought the badgers took the isolator badge problem WAY to seriously.
You missed a badge. Not a big deal. Last I recall, it was impossible to get all the badges as it was. For sure impossible to get all the badges possible without doing PvP, without going to the opposite side, which would then mean, they weren't really keeping to character anyways, so after that, I was kinda, well, meh. :p
The issue was to get every badge [b]available[/b] to your toon.
Not doing PvP is fully ones own choice, and you were never locked out of it. As long as those badges a purely PvP oriented then it's perfectly fine to have them in PvP areas.
Badges from the other side were not available to you until Going Rogue, and then it was just some time to be able to access the other side.
The RV Isolator was a single enemy in a PvP zone with a 45 min respawn time, that's little over 74 hours (or a bit over 3 days) to get 100 kills. The main issue was that you were not only competing against the other side to stay alive but also against other heroes for the kill. All to get a PvE badge that new toons could comparatively speaking get very easily in the tutorial. It wasn't really the specific parts of it but rather the combination of them coupled with how easy it was in the tutorial.
l just spent three days stumbling through the multi-stage tutorial for The Secret World: Legends. I had to delete my character and restart twice for game-stopping bugs (although in one case it was just a badly worded mission script).
Yes, I'm a slow learner. Also, the controls are far too twitchy for my ancient hands. I'm not arthritic (yet!), but I am slow and stiff.
Whatever is decided for the tutorial, just make sure it works!!!!!
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I wonder if there ought to be a distinct difference between two "styles" of tutorial ... straight up instruction versus demonstration.
Straight up instruction is the kind of thing that is teaching the PLAYER things, where the game is talking to the Player in a direct fashion. Look at this here. This is what this means. Observe this. So on and so forth.
Demonstration is when the game asks the Player to take what they know and have learned and put it into practice so as to "learn" how to use what they know intuitively/effortlessly.
Outbreak (and Breakout, for that matter) incorporated both elements within the same zone/instance. First the game gives the new character/Player a walkthrough of the UI elements and a "practice run" of doing things on dummy targets before needing to do it all "for real" as part of a mission.
I'm wondering if City of Titans might want to do a little bit more separation of elements that make up a Tutorial.
Since we're going to have the functional equivalent of the Powerhouse, any sort of UI and Powers Tutorial can be incorporated into the Powerhouse as elements that are accessible while in the Powerhouse. That way, you're not confining access to the Tutorial Info to a specific (and never to be revisited) Tutorial Setting/Mission/Instance/Zone that you can't get back to if you want to DEMO the game for a friend. So rather than making up a (series of) mission(s) to fulfill the job of Direct Instruction, simply make that an optional component of the Powerhouse functionality. That way, even Players who drop the game [i]and come back[/i] can get a refresher course on how the UI functions and is laid out and so on upon their return. The game doesn't make a presumption of continuous uninterrupted play in which nothing is ever forgotten.
The Demonstration side of things then becomes the "go do stuff" part that involves structured missions, where Players are called upon to "drive" their characters through events and circumstances successfully. This is where you stop learning ABOUT the game and start DOING the actual game play. This side of things hardly calls for any sort of "refresher course" if Players take a break from the game and come back and don't remember how everything worked, because every mission made in the game will be using the common elements demonstrated in these first missions. Specifically, there is a sort of "you never forget HOW to ride a bike" ... even if your skill atrophies due to a lack of practice. It's a case of Play The Game to get back into the groove again of knowing how to play your character skillfully again.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Others have mentioned the Secret World tutorial. I think there's something else to be learned from it besides what has been mentioned, although Greyhawk did allude to it.
I am referring to its length. I've done it three time so far in the past week. It should take the average player about an hour to an hour and a half to get through the Secret World tutorial. Why is that? Because there is more to the tutorial than just telling you how the controls work and how to interact with the game. The tutorial also introduces the player to the world and lore and also to the playstyle and mindset that is necessary to succeed in the particular game design architecture.
It takes you through the three basic kinds of missions, an investigation mission, a sabotage mission and an action mission.
The reason I bring this up in this forum, and why I think it has bearing upon CoT is for the following reasons:
First, City of Titans will not be a basic trope fantasy that requires negligible background story to understand what is going on. Rather, as a superhero game set in a world like but unlike our own, MWM will need to provide more background lore an make more effort at immersion than most MMO out there, especially if we are supposed to know who the paragons are. So the tutorial needs to set the stage.
Second, MWM has already admitted that there will be a stealth mechanic and the potential to run some stealth missions. A tutorial that familiarizes us with the basics of stealth and discovery, traps and switches would be necessary. MWM has also said that we will be collecting clues as we progress and that when we put some clues together we will unlock more missions. I don't know if that will be automatic, they will give us the answer or if we have to work it out for ourselves, but there should be some sort of help function to introduce the whole concept of clues.
Third, there will be alignment repercussions to our actions. With a three-axis alignment, there will be nothing saying heroic or villainous, only how lawful, violent and honorable we are. So the tutorial will need to walk us through dialogues, and how we choose to prosecute our missions and how both will affect our alignments. And what difference it makes what our alignment is at all.
For these reasons, I would expect that the CoT tutorial will probably need to be a bit more immersive and involved than most MMO tutorials we are used to.
Another game that had a lengthy tutorial was Wildstar. I use past tense because when they went free-to-play they hacked it down into the bare minimum to get people out onto the planet Nexus, and instead used a bunch of situational tool-tips that would pop-up during gameplay when certain criteria were met.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
The mistake was, they never should have put that one enemy in the PvP zone to be killed and just said "Sorry, you missed it."
I've always felt that every MMO tutorial needs a main path that describes how to play [i]this[/i] MMO, and a side room at the very start that describes how to play [i]an[/i] MMO. Please don't make me slog through WASD, Space to Jump, Tab Targeting, yada yada yada [i]again[/i]. Just get me to what makes your game special, whether it's character progression, combat mechanics, mission styles, or lore.
Here's where I digress to point out that CO's tutorial started out with a Shift to Block section in a safe location. Then they "streamlined" it out in favor of a popup in the middle of the boss fight against Black Talon at the end. Then revamped the Power Armor power set and accidentally gave Black Talon the full rotation he has when you meet him again on Monster Island instead of the cut-down tutorial set he previously had. Then moved the Shift to Block popup back to the beginning of the tutorial, but left in $#!^-Kicking Full Power Black Talon, because bosses with abrupt difficulty spikes are CO's thing now. At least it's honest.
But I told you that story to tell you this one: CO did a much better job of getting you into the lore than CoH did, because you met every member of The Champions before the tutorial was over. You immediately learn that Defender talks too much, Ironclad is loud and brutish, Sapphire is more useful as a pop star, the writers don't know what to do with Witchcraft and Kinetik, and that the Overwatch team ripped off Dr. Silverback, not Grodd, to create Winston. The Freedom Phalanx passed you off to The Vindicators until you got out of Kings Row and met Positron in Steel Canyon or Synapse in Skyway City. (The only saving grace of that progression is that it indirectly prepares you for the revelation that Statesman is actually kind of a jagoff.)
Twitter: @SisterSilicon
My problem with the CO Tutorial is that they have you [i]Save The Whole City[/i] on your very first day, get a parade and get saluted by the Champions... and then you wake up to the reality that you're fighting street trash and the Champions never heard of you.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Ha ha! Yes - exactly!
How about this.
There a start tutorial with basics. This is an Outbreak/breakout type setup.
Then you have a Power Hub where you can get fine tuning training. More detail info, guided leveling guides. An Optional area where you can get a much more detail aid into learning the finer things in the game. The Auction House would be included here with a fake guide to posting and buying. More aid in the Augment system and so on.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Why not start building on the UGC system right off the bat. Say, to get your "super card" you go through the equivalent of AE to do some "testing" and simulations which provides you with the basic mechanics and then it spits you out into the real world. Then later on when you come back to UGC it's something familiar to everyone who has run the tutorial. It's not as exciting but it's also not defining enough that someone who wants to play a bad guy feels like they have to role in as a hero and then go bad. It's just step one on whatever journey you want to take.
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