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How are we working INVISIBLE powers? w/Tertiary discussion.

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Cyclops
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How are we working INVISIBLE powers? w/Tertiary discussion.

In COH you moved at half speed when invisible. It bugged me, but I couldn't argue with it because an invisible type doesn't want the enemy to hear him coming. Invisibility = stealth...got it.
Ninja types always became visible after a back stab...That was fine too. Invisibility ends with an attack.

How should it work here?
Should there be a movement penalty?
Will I see a ghostly image of myself, or nothing?
What if everyone in PvP is invisible?

I have an invisibility centered character in mind. not for PvP.
and I always wanted to try an invisible Shadow-style gunslinger.

Tannim222
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There is a difference in CoT

There is a difference in CoT between being "stealthy" and being invisible. Stealth by means of attempting to avoid detection, will require slower movevement on the player's part. It has not been determined if any specific "stealth powers" will be designed which enforce a slowed movement pace, or if a crouched-walk tied to a particular key will provide basic stealth. Both are possible.

There will always be a way for the player to detect their own character in some fashion while also being able to know at a moment if they are using stealth or invisibility.
Stealth deals with Perception range, which players may be able to improve with certain powers (or have debuffed). Improved perception will result in stealthy targets being noticeable quicker. But may not directly combat invisibility.
Invisibility will offfer certain advantages over stealth, including ease of avoiding detection vs perception. However, we do plan on having a series of Super Senses powers in Tertiary Sets. Certain Super Senses may be able to detect Invisibility while others may not. Stealth may still be usable against certain Super Senses while others may not as well.

Stealth and Invisiblity will be more of chess game with Super Sense powers in play.


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Tannim, you are the best.

Tannim, you are the best. Super senses! I want some!

and PS, thank the other Devs. This is a brilliant game!

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That brings up a follow up

That brings up a follow up question. At what level do we get out first Tertiary power choice?

Further, you mention Tertiary "sets."
Can we pick and choose powers? or do we pick a Set and choose from the powers offered in the set?

If I was building a Brute, and just wanted infravision could I do that? or would I be limited to the Brute sets?

PS, if we are on a set system, can I suggest that some Tertiary powers be ala carte just to spice up the game.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

That brings up a follow up question. At what level do we get out first Tertiary power choice?
Further, you mention Tertiary "sets."
Can we pick and choose powers? or do we pick a Set and choose from the powers offered in the set?
If I was building a Brute, and just wanted infravision could I do that? or would I be limited to the Brute sets?
PS, if we are on a set system, can I suggest that some Tertiary powers be ala carte just to spice up the game.

MWM has mentioned tertiary sets a few times and pretty sure those powers will be organized into sets that has a certain theme, but otherwise you are "free" to pick and choose. My understanding is that it will be effectively the same as CoH in this regard, tertiary sets will be the same for everyone. The main reason for this is that tertiary sets represent the more common and/or baseline powers. Sure there might be AT specific versions or modifiers to them, like it was in CoH.

Not sure if MWM will keep the max 4 tertiary sets limit or not but sure hope they won't. Even if they do it will be less of a "problem" than in CoH since we won't need to spend those slots to get travel powers.

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Hmmm. Good points. BUT I have

Hmmm. Good points. BUT I have a solution that will bring a bit of cash to MWM.
If we are stuck with 4 sets max...maybe we can pay COT to mix and match tertiary powers freely.

a free to play game needs cash to keep operating and this little convenience ought to help.

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I wonder if that wouldn't be

I wonder if that wouldn't be crossing over into Pay 2 Win territory? In that that they will have a game-play mechanical advantage over those who don't pay for it due to the combinations they can form.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

I wonder if that wouldn't be crossing over into Pay 2 Win territory? In that that they will have a game-play mechanical advantage over those who don't pay for it due to the combinations they can form.

I don't think most people will go for this. they will focus on base powers and the tertiary sets will be good enough. My main, Black Falcon is a brute and I will focus on the brute abilities...She likely will not have the slots for a lot of crazy abilities.

besides, tertiary powers are convenient but do not seem to be game changers. Night Vision might be cool, but the city has street lights and you do not need it to win.

thats why I think Super Senses do not need to be a set. You really only need one, not 20 Super Senses.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
I wonder if that wouldn't be crossing over into Pay 2 Win territory? In that that they will have a game-play mechanical advantage over those who don't pay for it due to the combinations they can form.
I don't think most people will go for this. they will focus on base powers and the tertiary sets will be good enough. My main, Black Falcon is a brute and I will focus on the brute abilities...She likely will not have the slots for a lot of crazy abilities.
besides, tertiary powers are convenient but do not seem to be game changers. Night Vision might be cool, but the city has street lights and you do not need it to win.

Doesn't really matter how popular it is or if they are individually game changers, just the fact that certain combinations may give a clear game-play advantage that are only available to those who pay for it.

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thats why I think Super Senses do not need to be a set. You really only need one, not 20 Super Senses.

That depends on how one defines "super senses" in this regard. One can easily make the case that having perception accuracy and defense as separate "super senses" and thus needs one power each.

Though my suspicions about tertiary sets is that they are more for convenience than they are for restricting us. Rather than having one long list of say 30-40 items they'll be organised into easy groups, or "sets", that adhere to certain themes.

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

That brings up a follow up question. At what level do we get out first Tertiary power choice?

I can't provide the specifics at this time, we have a couple of progression charts we need to analyze before one becomes final. But your first pick is "early" in the game.

Cyclops wrote:

Further, you mention Tertiary "sets."
Can we pick and choose powers? or do we pick a Set and choose from the powers offered in the set?

You select a particular set and must choose one of the starting powers of that set. These srarter powers are requirements in order to unlock later tiers of the set.

Cyclops wrote:

If I was building a Brute, and just wanted infravision could I do that? or would I be limited to the Brute sets?
PS, if we are on a set system, can I suggest that some Tertiary powers be ala carte just to spice up the game.

Tertiary sets are like power pools. Except over time, we will have more sets than thenold game had. Most of our Tertiary Sets are smaller, simplified versions of Primary Sets. There will be Super Senses, Combat Mobility, and others. There are currently no specific Class-based Tertiary Sets, or any other restrictions except for when a Tertiary can be selected by level, and the total number of Tertiary Sets. Yes we will have a limit on them for a couple of reasons.


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Thanks Tannim! and here I

Thanks Tannim! and here I thought I was all jiggy with it.

One last question: is Invisibility a tertiary power? or do we know yet?

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Invisibility will most likely

Invisibility will most likely show up as a Tertiary power, but it may also show up within a power set.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Invisibility will most likely show up as a Tertiary power, but it may also show up within a power set.

Thank you!

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Good to hear, Tannim!

Good to hear, Tannim!


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Tannim222

Tannim222

Quote:

You select a particular set (tertiary) and must choose one of the starting powers of that set. These srarter powers are requirements in order to unlock later tiers of the set.

This is the one thing that causes me grave concern. The WORST thing about the power pools in CoX was the fact that most initial powers were an absolute waste. Unfortunately, they were the gate keepers to the actual powers that we wanted and NEEDED. Therefore, it often required us to spend (waste) 2 or 3 power selections just to get the power we needed or wanted. I have no issue with tertiary powers being level locked. Are you using this same design philosophy for the Primary and Secondary Pools?

All I can hope for is that MWM doesn't make those required choices absolutely useless powers.

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This is less of a concern for

This is less of a concern for me, for several reasons:

1. Some powers are worth having to take another power to unlock them. For example, a travel power that also gives you a combat buff while active, like Super Speed, and which can also be enhanced using uniques and procs to the point where you get basically full invso out of it. That is worth having to take Flurry of Fists to unlock it, even if you almost never use Flurry. The speed and the invis are basically two different powers, so you're still getting three powers for the price of two, and the Flurry og Fists can still have a unique or proc slotted into it too, possibly giving a buff or some other effect based on set bonuses or something.

2. The assumption being made is that you have to take a "bad" prerequisite first in order to unlock the locked "good" power you really want. This is not necessarily always required to be the case. Hasten, even after all the nerfs and so forth, was a still a REALLY GOOD power in and of itself. They could have made Hover or Air Superiority better, I'll grant, but Combat Jumping was a power that pushed people into a less-desirable travel power just because it was a combat-effectiveness power and min/maxers were all about that. Recall Friend was a GREAT power, it just wasn't a great COMBAT power.

So I have faith that the powers will be fine, even if you have to take one to unlock another. That adds a certain amount of puzzle-solving to the build process, and I like that. Also, it conveys the feeling of mastering a given skill or developing one's talent level in a given area to the point where you go from crawling to walking to running as you progress. I would personally not give people the 4th or 5th power in a given Tertiary set until they took a few of the more basic applications of that power set first. I think it just makes sense.

Where you run into problems with that philosophy is when the next power in the set is just a strictly better version of the first power. Like Hover and Fly. Once you have Fly, you never use Hover anymore, and that's a problem. I would avoid that type of power progression wherever possible, or else try to make Hover-like powers (i.e. ones that get straight-replaced later when you unlock the next power in the set) the kinds of things that can be used as "mule powers" to house various rare and valuable Augments and Refinements one might want for one's build but find it hard to make room for in a power that deals damage. If I had a Proc in hover that made me Invisible while in the air (whether flying or hovering) I might take Hover to unlock Fly with and put that proc in it so that I could put speed enhancers in Fly. Sometimes you have more power slots to waste than enhancement slots, after all. Or, maybe there's a small three-enhancement set that gives overall endo and hit point buffs I want, so I take Hover and Fly and three-slot both to get two copies of that set working for me, etc.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

This is less of a concern for me, for several reasons:
1. Some powers are worth having to take another power to unlock them. For example, a travel power that also gives you a combat buff while active, like Super Speed, and which can also be enhanced using uniques and procs to the point where you get basically full invso out of it. That is worth having to take Flurry of Fists to unlock it, even if you almost never use Flurry. The speed and the invis are basically two different powers, so you're still getting three powers for the price of two, and the Flurry og Fists can still have a unique or proc slotted into it too, possibly giving a buff or some other effect based on set bonuses or something.
2. The assumption being made is that you have to take a "bad" prerequisite first in order to unlock the locked "good" power you really want. This is not necessarily always required to be the case. Hasten, even after all the nerfs and so forth, was a still a REALLY GOOD power in and of itself. They could have made Hover or Air Superiority better, I'll grant, but Combat Jumping was a power that pushed people into a less-desirable travel power just because it was a combat-effectiveness power and min/maxers were all about that. Recall Friend was a GREAT power, it just wasn't a great COMBAT power.
So I have faith that the powers will be fine, even if you have to take one to unlock another. That adds a certain amount of puzzle-solving to the build process, and I like that. Also, it conveys the feeling of mastering a given skill or developing one's talent level in a given area to the point where you go from crawling to walking to running as you progress. I would personally not give people the 4th or 5th power in a given Tertiary set until they took a few of the more basic applications of that power set first. I think it just makes sense.
Where you run into problems with that philosophy is when the next power in the set is just a strictly better version of the first power. Like Hover and Fly. Once you have Fly, you never use Hover anymore, and that's a problem. I would avoid that type of power progression wherever possible, or else try to make Hover-like powers (i.e. ones that get straight-replaced later when you unlock the next power in the set) the kinds of things that can be used as "mule powers" to house various rare and valuable Augments and Refinements one might want for one's build but find it hard to make room for in a power that deals damage. If I had a Proc in hover that made me Invisible while in the air (whether flying or hovering) I might take Hover to unlock Fly with and put that proc in it so that I could put speed enhancers in Fly. Sometimes you have more power slots to waste than enhancement slots, after all. Or, maybe there's a small three-enhancement set that gives overall endo and hit point buffs I want, so I take Hover and Fly and three-slot both to get two copies of that set working for me, etc.

Thank you for reinforcing the very concerns that I have with this choice in design. It was my pet peeve with the old city.

Hasten. Totally Worth a slot. Hated SS, but I would sacrifice an entire pool just for hasten.

I don't want to hover. I want to fly. Don't want to skip; I want to SJ. Don't want to TP you; I want to TP me. (Granted they solved that problem towards the end.)

Fitness. Only power I wanted was Endurance, but it was so necessary that it was worth three power choices.

Whether or not they choose to lock higher tier tertiary powers behind the lower ones, the principle point is that no power should be useless and the design should not force meaningless powers on the player base. Too many of the lower tier powers in the old city were useless and meaningless.

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There is an arguement that

There is an arguement that one could make about any tiered structure in a levelled system. Inunderstand the desire for more freesom to choose whatever you want at any point. The framework for aquisition of powers mist also coincide with the tyoemof encounters available. Sometimes certain powers provide unique benefits which are not suited for certain levels of play.

The key here is to make powers in a pool desirable by providing a useful purpose for the possible beneift of the level of play when the power could possibly be ovtained at its earliest.


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I dislike the idea of mule

I dislike the idea of mule powers, and I'll cycle back to that. With aesthetic decoupling I don't really see a good reason for hover to exist at all as a "base power." If "flight" is slow then you should be able to make it fast with augments and refinements the difference between fly and hover in COH was body orientation, until flyposes. I am not sure hover and flight is a great example either since they are travel powers which will be treated differently in COT. I think the "fitness" set is probably a better comparison. You had to take sprinting or hurdle which were pretty lackluster (early on before you could pair them with ninja run) before you could get to the meatier powers of regeneration and stamina. Eventually this was all changed up as you could take the t3 PP power at level 7 rather than waiting until 14 and having the prerequisite filled. Though I think you still had to take two powers from the pool to get to the t4 power in the pool. If anything that right there shows that we should not be locking the sets down with prerequisites. It's one of the things that COH had to change because it wasn't what was wanted from the playerbase.

I disagree with having the sets locked up but paying to unlock a power set like this is absolutely a pay-to-win. Imagine paying to unlock Focused Accuracy and Tactics from their respective pools out of order and taking those powers to a PVP zone. Such a player would have a huge advantage over stealthed players. And since they would not have to have fulfilled the same prereqs as other players they would be free to pick up more attacks or utility powers that would give them an even greater advantage. changing the power acquire mechanic via RMT is pay-to-win.

Mule powers just shouldn't exist. A power should stand on it's own merits maybe it's not useful all the time in every situation but it's benefits have to exist to such a degree that a player wants to have that power for a reason greater than "I can throw a proc" in it. Otherwise you might as well create a mechanic for applying extra slots to an existing powers or creating a system for holding global augments. Which is the jist of something in a warcabbit post that was brought up in my hold X to charge thread. But that post was from 2014 maybe so who knows if that is still a thing.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

A power should stand on it's own merits maybe it's not useful all the time in every situation but it's benefits have to exist to such a degree that a player wants to have that power ...

+1!

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The argument of (I want

The argument of (I want Stamina, not Swift) is basically asking to make Stamina, which was a REALLY good power, available without any pre-requisites, and I don't agree with the idea that all Tertiary powers should be available up-front like that. Stamina was basically worth 2 power slots in your build, even when it cost zero and everyone got it for free. If there was a failing of that earlier system (the one when you had to devote a pool slot to Fitness and then take Swift to unlock Stamina at level 20) it was that Stamina was SO good it was practically mandatory, because very few builds would not be improved by making room for it, even with the pre-requisites you had to take to unlock it. So they just eventually let everyone have it for free. Ideally, there should have been more ways to build toons that completely avoided Stamina and Health because they didn't need them, but since endo recovery rate and regen rate are such fundamentally useful things, those two powers were must-haves for almost everyone.

I have no fundamental disagreement with the idea of having to take one or more earlier powers in a Tertiary set in order to gain access to the later (one assumes better) powers in the same set. For one thing, it conveys the idea of getting better at a given skill, and for another it makes the build process more interesting and deep. Also, passive "auto" powers that cost no endo and don't have to be activated or toggled are inherently powerful in the sense that they just make you strictly better, period. Some of the minor stuff like jumping higher and moving a little faster aren't going to noticeably effect your combat numbers, but the Stamina and Health powers definitely do, and they have almost no overhead cost to run them. You didn't have to toggle them on, they didn't drop when you got stunned, they didn't cost any endo to activate, etc. I have no problem with a game design that makes you pay extra for that in the form of pre-requisites.

Would it be more efficient to not have to take Swift to unlock Stamina, sure. But making the build process easier to optimize is not the game designer's job. Their job is to make it fun and interesting, and making it TOO easy operates against that purpose, actually.

In GW2 you have to earn and then use Hero Points in order to progress through a set of skills that are arranged on a track. You spend 15 points, you get the next two skills on the track. You have no choice as to which two skills come next on the track, they're laid out for you in an order you didnt choose and cannot change. You just get the prescribed ones in the prescribed order, when you choose to pay for them, and that's that. You have like 8 or more different tracks you could spend points on, but no say in what order the skills fall into in those tracks. Clearly they've put the best powers toward the end of the track inmost cases, and clearly we'd all like to just take the powers we're going to use and forget the rest, but that's not how they designed the system so it is what it is. You play the game by the rules they set up for you.

A progression system like that might be a better way to do powers that get better as you progress, like Hover into Fly into SuperFly (now with +Stealth and better speed and control). Of course, that would not be much different than just making one Fly power that just improves with age as you get more levels. You could even make it work in such a way that if you take Fly at a low level, you'll be able to get enough post-Fly levels to make it really good by the time you're level capped. But then if you take it later in the build, you don't have enough levels left to actually grow it to full potential and might be stuck with less effective Fly at level 50 than the theoretical maximum, while maybe being able to make some other power better that also improves with age. Of course, with respeccing, this can all be incorporated into the final build, which might be vastly different from the builds you actually used to level up. I guess the fact that you get Augment slots to throw around as you level up accomplishes this.

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There is a primary difference

There is a primary difference between GW2 progression and COH and ostensibly what will be COT's. That is in GW2 the user can earn all their powers without question given enough time. I've fully maxed out all the skills on my ranger and gone on to earn all the skills for the elite class Druid. So in the end, even though I didn't get to choose what order to earn those powers, I have access to all of them. Which is perfectly counter to COH's character building style which a player is only allowed to take X number of powers.

Really the GW2 unlocking of skills is more akin to the level gating of powers in COH. IE you couldn't take a t9 power before level 35. In GW2 you have to earn a separate currency (hero points) to unlock each skill. I'm fine with level restrictions. IE you still wouldn't be able to take stamina until level 20 but you wouldn't be required to take hurdle to get it.

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Another factor in this is the

Another factor in this is the idea of putting some Tertiary powers in Primary or Secondary sets in such a way that you don't have to take Hover to unlock Fly IF you have "Air Manipulation" as a Primary or Secondary set, because that set contains a power called "Gaseous Body" which effectively turns your body into air, which makes you transparent enough to grant Stealth, phases you out so that you take no damage from most attacks, and allows you to fly, even at zero overland speed, so Hover is included. A power like that in a primary or secondary set would make plain old Fly obsolete for you, and thus take away the need to take Hover, in effect allowing you room for two different powers and a whole different Tertiary or Pool if you want it.

I don't know if such powers will show up in Primary or Secondary sets or not, but in places where they do, it should be noted that they provide a lot of flexibility in builds without necessarily being good attack chain type powers. A person who takes Gaseous Body now has room for two more Tertiary or other powers, which might be attacks from the secondary set or something that they would not have taken otherwise. But that's only true of the Fly power has to be unlocked by the Hover power in the first place.

Another idea is to allow people to BUY temp powers like jetpacks that run out of fuel and thus are less efficient than just taking the Fly power in the first place, but save you build space. So like, I might want to avoid Hover and Fly and just buy a jetpack, but it will run out of time eventually and I'll have to buy a new one or respec into Fly, etc. That's not "Pay to Win" to me, because you do have the choice of just taking Fly for free, but you also have the choice of paying extra for what essentially amounts to more build space without having to sacrifice the power of flight. And in any event, what you're paying for might cause you to Win more, but since the game is not really PVP-driven, your added "Winning" makes me win more too when we team up. So we both win. And in PVP, you could just have gating options for events that prevent the use of store-bought powers, or limits them in some way, or allows you to compete but suppresses your purchased powers during the fight, etc. There are ways to make PVP fights "fair" if you want to while still allowing powers to be purchased.

Edit: and then of course you could have a way to grind for the temp power jetpack too, but I would make it a fairly large amount of grinding for a fairly small flight duration, because people with too much time on their hands can grind for a ton of hours for stuff like that.

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Just so everyone who reads

Just so everyone who reads thisnthread is clear, don't read too much into the examples given for movement powers as Teterary selections. Movement powers are their own optional choices.

One of the driving factors in how we set up Tertier tier selections is based on the design structure of Tertiaries. Many Tertiary sets being versions of primary sets with no classification requirements or restrictions will allow players to have a wide range of choice and also potentially potent combinations.

Even a just gated by level tier system may end up where players wait out levels to pick tertiaries and once the upper Tertariy tiers are unlocked, pick multiple particular power selections which might have untintended consequences for build performance. Now, we have something of a hybrid of level unlocks by level gate for tier selection and prerequisite tiers. Each selection allows for more than one tier to choose from. An example being at level (x) you can choose tier 1 or 2. One of which is needed for the next tiers.

Indo understand the concern of being forced to pick unwanted powers over the one desired power. Because of the combination possibilities we have to take care of the potential edge case becoming a norm die to the performance gains. But there is the underlying assumption that these early tiers will be superfluous.

It is also entirely probable that at a certain point there will be nomprimarynor secondary power selections at a given level, requiring the player to pick a tertiary. And even with the concept of unlock any tier by level, the placement of this selection may not be enough to have unlocked the highest and therefore more-likely to be desired, tier. If we have done are job well, then even these early tiers will offer something of value to a player's build. Granted that value may not be equal to all players.

Please keep in mind we are still evaluating and things may change.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

But there is the underlying assumption that these early tiers will be superfluous.

Convert your overlying assumption to a concern and a well placed hope that the errors of the old city will not be replicated. As indicated in the underlying ...

Tannim222 wrote:

If we have done are job well, then even these early tiers will offer something of value to a player's build. Granted that value may not be equal to all players.

Ding. Ding. Value.

The value (beyond min/max) is also dependent on the character concept (as potentially indicated in your above statement) for those of us that want to remain true to the concept. That is a valuation that cannot be taken into account in the design of the system since said valuation is solely within the purview of the player's own mind. Based on concept, a power that is perfectly fine value wise in a min/max mentality may have absolutely no value to a player that wishes to remain true to their character concept. With the designs ability to allow the player to choose the animation for their powers, it makes it easier to pigeon hole powers into a concept. I do not like the idea that I must "potentially" (emphasis added to indicate a concern and not an assumption) choose a power that breaks concept and which can not in any manner be deformed, twisted, or defamed into complying with the character concept. Even the wildly creative among us may have to break the logic of our character's concept to include a power not of our own choosing in order to obtain the power that is a defining ability for the concept. I would prefer to remain true to concept. I would prefer that my time manipulating stalwart would be allowed to remain true to concept and only choose tertiary powers that support that concept.

This is a concern and not an assumption. I have hope and faith that MWM will deliver.

If tier locking tertiary powers is such a good idea, will the same philosophy be applied to the primary and secondary powers? Why or why not?

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Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

If tier locking tertiary powers is such a good idea, will the same philosophy be applied to the primary and secondary powers? Why or why not?

I stated why prerequisites are applicable to Tertiary powers.

Quote:

Even a just gated by level tier system may end up where players wait out levels to pick tertiaries and once the upper Tertariy tiers are unlocked, pick multiple particular power selections which might have untintended consequences for build performance

There is only an upper limit to the total number of tertiary sets a player can access which is the only other restriction other than prerequisite tiers. Since many Tertiaries are designed off of Primary Sets, if there weren't prerequisites, and only a level gate, then after a certain level, players can access a number of powers which can result in the quote above. We need to provide some constraints in this part of the framework of power selection because of the potentially (over time as we make more tertiaries), huge selection that will be available. With somewhat of a limit in the vast array of combinations, it allows us to at least "grasp" the potential of lower and upper bound builds to make sure everyting performs well. Even then I expect players to find combinations which will require some additional review as the game ages and power sets are released.

Nyxz wrote:

. I do not like the idea that I must "potentially" (emphasis added to indicate a concern and not an assumption) choose a power that breaks concept and which can not in any manner be deformed, twisted, or defamed into complying with the character concept. Even the wildly creative among us may have to break the logic of our character's concept to include a power not of our own choosing in order to obtain the power that is a defining ability for the concept.

I truly do understand the concern of potential of ended up with powers that break character concept. But there must be limits even so far as trying to provide room for conceptualized character design within the constraints of performance bounds. Just because some players have a concept which dictates only particular powers doesn't mean it is best for the game design to always allow any possible combination. The entire framework of power selection already has multiple constraints which can rub up against anyone's particular concept. We have classifications which will restrict certain combinations of the types of power sets available. There is a level system which will eventually result in players having to pick something out of a primary, secondary, or tertiary which may not be the power they absolulely want to get, but it doesn't mean the level requirement.

For example, say by level 20, a player has only taken their t1 from a primary, a couple of their secondary, and a bunch of tertiary powers, but they are now at a point where they must choose a power from their primary, no more secondary or tertiary selections are available (this is a bit hyperbolic because I don't think this is actually possible, but it illuminates the example). Yet, this player's concept only called for the t1 and t9 of their primary power set. Yet, because of the way the level-gated system works, they've been forced to now pick another power. Another simplified example is that if anything, a primary requires the selection of at least one of the first 2 tiers in order to begin power selection. It is unaviodable, even if the player's concept doesn't call for those 2 powers, but powers in the upper tiers of that set.

Even with our system for power visualization, aesthetic decoupling, there will be some limits on what is possible in certain combinations. Just because this doesn't mesh with someone's concept means that it is bad design. I would think, if anything, even when certain power effects may not be completely desirable, with aesthetic decoupling, players may find ways to visually build their character. And as a result, that particular power with an effect that didn't quite mesh in any other game, can end up working well because at least visually, it works within the concept. This breaks down the barrier of conceptualization a bit within the bounds of reason (as in being reasonable in thought).


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Invisibility will offfer certain advantages over stealth, including ease of avoiding detection vs perception. However, we do plan on having a series of Super Senses powers in Tertiary Sets. Certain Super Senses may be able to detect Invisibility while others may not. Stealth may still be usable against certain Super Senses while others may not as well.
Stealth and Invisiblity will be more of chess game with Super Sense powers in play.

Does this mean that we will see villains with Stealh/Invisibility? That would be pretty awesome! This would add a layer to both the usefulness of the Super Sense powers and the variety of missions. You would need a team mate with these powers in order to get through some areas or the entire mission.

It's been a while now so I can't recall, did the Arachnos villians in CoX have the ability to go invis?

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Thanks Tannim.

Thanks Tannim.

The disparity in the knowledge of the game's system(s) is vast: between infinite ( a DEV such as yourself) and limited (those of us following the project). All we can do is express our concerns based on our limited knowledge. Even going so far as nudging for further information or clarification. We are so appreciative of the Devs willingness to communicate with us and shed what little light they can on the process, design, and logic behind the decisions that are going into the design process AND the new city of hope and light called Titan City. Keep up the good work.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

It's been a while now so I can't recall, did the Arachnos villians in CoX have the ability to go invis?

Widows had smoke which made mobs go invisible and required the burning of acc insp to overcome the effect OR heighted acc/perception from inherents or pool powers.

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Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
It's been a while now so I can't recall, did the Arachnos villians in CoX have the ability to go invis?
Widows had smoke which made mobs go invisible and required the burning of acc insp to overcome the effect OR heighted acc/perception from inherents or pool powers.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I remember something like that happening. They would become like a transparent grey right? I guess invisibility with villains could be handled similarly.

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I understand some of the

I understand some of the concern about useless powers being prerequisites for useful powers. I see two ways to avoid this.

1. Make subsequent powers be improvements over prerequisite powers. I know Tannim told us not to use movement powers as an example, but I'm going to use hover and fly as my example anyway. It made sense that before you could fly you learned how to hover. And I could imagine a third teir to that which would have some assortment of more advanced flying maneuvers, such as a dodge or a superspeed or a divebomb. So we could do this with perception abilities. Start off with improved senses, and then expand into more specialized sight, sound, mental, etc as the second tier, and then for the third tier include defenses against sensory deprivation debuffs, etc.

2. Avoid prerequisites that are unrelated to the subsequent tiers. Fitness was a good example of a bad example. As Grimfox stated,

Grimfox wrote:

You had to take sprinting or hurdle which were pretty lackluster (early on before you could pair them with ninja run) before you could get to the meatier powers of regeneration and stamina.

How in the world did hurdle help get regeneration? These powers should not have a prerequisite relationship unless they are related or make a logical sense to branch out to better, higher-tier powers. Since I'm not one to sling stones without proposing an alternative, let me try that here. If we want to get regeneration as a higher tier tertiery of the fitness set (pure speculation for illustration porpoises only) then the prerequisite in the lower tier might be faster out-of-combat recovery of hit points. That is useful by itself, and is a naturally logical set up for the subsequent in-combat regeneration.


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Reading the commentary here

Reading the commentary here makes me very glad for the design work we've done.

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I agree with Tannim222 that

I agree with Tannim222 that the game designer has to design it such that you can't just let everyone make Gishy the Tankmange who has maxxed defense, resistance, dps, regen, endo recovery, and movement because of the judicious choice of cherry-picked powers that the player took.

Saying "But..... that was my CONCEPT!" is not an excuse for allowing such ubertoons to exist. The onus is squarely on the devs to make that type of overpowered build impossible in the game system as designed. One good way to prevent OP builds while still allowing a fair amount of freedom of choice is to place limits on what you can have and when you can have it, so I feel like we have to allow them that leeway to make those calls.

I would not be against making rules preventing certain classes from taking certain Tertiaries, for this reason. Your class already dictates which Primaries you can choose from, and we don't expect that all secondaries will be available based on what class you are, so Tertiaries could be limited in that sense too. Maybe tanky types aren't allowed to take ranged DPS as a tertiary, or maybe they can't have access to damage resistance Tertiaries, or maybe they can't have the defense Tertiaries, etc.

I'm not against making the tier 1-2 power in a Tertiary set like Fighting (Punch and Kick) mandatory in order to unlock the "better" stuff like Tough and Weave (using Fighting to try to get away from the Travel power examples). I would be okay with that if the Fighting set were available to everyone. I would be okay with it if we limited Fighting to certain classes and disallow it for others and STILL had mandatory tier1-2 power to unlock tier 3-4 powers, etc. also, you could allow every class to take every Tertiary but with tier-gated unlocking as described, and ALSO nerf the power numbers for different classes differently to make different Tertiaries more/less valuable for different people. All of that is fine by me.

Art is form. You can't write a 15-page thesis on refrigerator maintenance and call it a haiku. There need to be limitations and restrictions placed on things in the base rules to make the game a game and not a pre-won snoozefest. Limitations imposed by game rules maintain game balance for one thing and they make the build process deep and interesting for another. They also create the possibility for making exceptions and shortcuts to be built in later in the form of new powers, new Augments, etc. I'm generally in favor of more restrictive base rules with the possibility of having individual powerups that trump them later. When people complain that something is a restriction, I say "Yes, it is. And we need it as such." because removing too many restrictions, or not building them in in the first place, is tantamount to handing the players an Easy Button (TM) which will make the game too easy and basically cause it to be won faster, and thus cause players to run out of things to do faster. Game players are like otters, we WANT to have a relatively deep, but tenable, puzzle to solve. That's true of missions, builds, and even designing SG bases to a large extent.

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I tend to think you can

I tend to think you can explain away a concept-breaking power choice: e.g. based on CoH, if your toon only has a sniper rifle. You slot single shot and sniper, and maybe others when you're forced, and, if you're so RP intense, simlpy don't use the other powers.

The biggest thing is travel powers, in CoH anyway. A martial artist with super speed or can leap over a building? Nonsense, but you need to get around. My answer: jump jet or flight ring ;)


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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Another factor in this is the idea of putting some Tertiary powers in Primary or Secondary sets in such a way that you don't have to take Hover to unlock Fly IF you have "Air Manipulation" as a Primary or Secondary set, because that set contains a power called "Gaseous Body" which effectively turns your body into air, which makes you transparent enough to grant Stealth, phases you out so that you take no damage from most attacks, and allows you to fly, even at zero overland speed, so Hover is included. A power like that in a primary or secondary set would make plain old Fly obsolete for you, and thus take away the need to take Hover, in effect allowing you room for two different powers and a whole different Tertiary or Pool if you want it.

Hmm - being able to use certain Primary or Secondary powers as prerequisites for Tertiaries is interesting. Not sure if this would overly complicate things or not but it could open things up a bit. There could still be level gates, but it might free up a power slot or two and avoid some overlaps. Of course - maybe the player WANTS a little overlap if the two power effects stack.

Quote:

I would not be against making rules preventing certain classes from taking certain Tertiaries, for this reason. Your class already dictates which Primaries you can choose from, and we don't expect that all secondaries will be available based on what class you are, so Tertiaries could be limited in that sense too. Maybe tanky types aren't allowed to take ranged DPS as a tertiary, or maybe they can't have access to damage resistance Tertiaries, or maybe they can't have the defense Tertiaries, etc.

I half agree/disagree with this however. From what I understand the Tertiaries are not going to be as powerful as Primaries or Secondaries, and they are there specifically to "plug some holes" in a character's build. Besides - unless the plans for secondaries have changed, a "Tank" WILL have access to select ranged dps or controll-y powers via their specifications. Now - there may be some concerns with said Defense-based class taking some defense-based tertiaries - but that may all come down to how they stack and what the defense caps are. If a player really wants to spend a power slot getting those last few percentage points to max cap against a certain type of attack? Let em I say. On the other hand - maybe a character who is strong against punches and bullets finds himself getting dropped by psi a lot and would like a means to shore up that defense a little bit - maybe a tertiary power would be a good fit.

Quote:

I'm not against making the tier 1-2 power in a Tertiary set like Fighting (Punch and Kick) mandatory in order to unlock the "better" stuff like Tough and Weave (using Fighting to try to get away from the Travel power examples).

I myself was hoping for more open power selection regarding the tertiaries - but I completely understand the potential pandoras box that could open on the game. That said I would hope the prerequisite powers would be, like Huckleberry suggested, more coherent and valuable - either in and of themselves, or by some kind of accumulated bonus. For instance, if issue 24 ever came to light, you would have actually gained a benefit (Fighting Synergy) from taking more of the attacks in the Fighting pool.

I also like Tannim's point about aesthetic decoupling adding to the ability to shape those prerequisites into something a bit more thematically applicable to one's own character. So maybe if you take "Boxing" to get to "Weave" - boxing doesn't have to be a plain old bare-knuckle punch.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

For example, say by level 20, a player has only taken their t1 from a primary, a couple of their secondary, and a bunch of tertiary powers, but they are now at a point where they must choose a power from their primary, no more secondary or tertiary selections are available (this is a bit hyperbolic because I don't think this is actually possible, but it illuminates the example). Yet, this player's concept only called for the t1 and t9 of their primary power set. Yet, because of the way the level-gated system works, they've been forced to now pick another power.

I could understand someone generating this concept in COH. A player only wanted SotW and GDfly from katana and wanted to draw everything else from the secondaries and power pools to make some sort of abominable scr-ank. However! With aesthetic decoupling a player that is building a character concept with only a t1 and t9 primary power from a set, that could almost literally be anything they want, needs to pick a different powerset for their primary. Or more likely a different class. Certainly there would be another set that still offers the benefits of the abominable build whilst drawing more and better powers from the primary set.

I base this on my understanding that a primary powerset will be more effective than a similar powerset taken as a tertiary powerset. IE a defender taking a martial arts tertiary would not be nearly as effective with it as a scrapper taking a martial arts primary. That MA set might give that defender an edge in CQC that defenders only working with only their primary and secondary set lack. At the same time you wouldn't want to build a Defender that only used that MA tertiary and a pair of powers from their primary because it'd be a far more effective to build a scrapper with MA as a primary that took a couple powers from a healing tertiary.

I think the arguments thus far are dealing primarily in hypotheticals and past grievances, there's just too little specific information. I believe level gating powers is probably enough. A power behind a tall level gate is in direct competition with high tier powers from the primary that would ideally be more desirable to the class. Which makes it a compromise to take one of these tertiary powers. (this is assuming that lower tier powers are not as "game breaking")

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I agree that we lack enough

I agree that we lack enough specific info about CoT to make any decisions, or judgements of the devs' decisions, at this point. Therefore I disagree with the assertion that making tier 1-2 Tertiary powers mandatory to unlock the tier 3-4 powers is somehow not necessary. While it's true that we lack the information to prove that it must be necessary, it's also true that that same lack of info also makes us unable to rule it out at this time, from what I can tell.

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This of course assumes that

This of course assumes that invisibility itself is a power.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Reading the commentary here makes me very glad for the design work we've done.

My smile is beaming!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

This of course assumes that invisibility itself is a power.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Yeah, the skins are easy to make, its that darn cat AI that's practically impossible to get right... :P

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
This of course assumes that invisibility itself is a power.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Yeah, the skins are easy to make, its that darn cat AI that's practically impossible to get right... :P

Yeah that and Americat might get all angry too.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

This of course assumes that invisibility itself is a power.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

The Legion of Catgirls formerly protests and condemns the skinning of cats in any way, form, or fashion. Don't skin cats. They need their skin...and cheezburgers. Please give us the cheezburgers.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
This of course assumes that invisibility itself is a power.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
The Legion of Catgirls formerly protests and condemns the skinning of cats in any way, form, or fashion. Don't skin cats. They need their skin...and cheezburgers. Please give us the cheezburgers.

Well in the animation world skinning a cat could mean giving it skin. If that makes you feel any better :D

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After being chided by cat

After being chided by cat lovers, I guess I should be more detailed.

If you ever looked at the classic CoH Invisibility by the numbers, taking away the visual of "can't see me" a moment, it becomes clear that it is, at its heart, another defensive set. So, consider the implications if the perception alteration were not tied to a particular set, but instead to a defensive set augmentation. Combine with the tertiary approach, and you can gain the same result of "can't see me" without needing to dedicate an entire set for it. That's one possible way to approach it without producing a niche set, one which opens up new options. Not saying this is set in stone, but it is how the winds are currently blowing.

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Invisibility Cloaks for

Invisibility Cloaks for everyone! And the Catgirls get to keep their skins. Yay!

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

After being chided by cat lovers, I guess I should be more detailed.
If you ever looked at the classic CoH Invisibility by the numbers, taking away the visual of "can't see me" a moment, it becomes clear that it is, at its heart, another defensive set. So, consider the implications if the perception alteration were not tied to a particular set, but instead to a defensive set augmentation. Combine with the tertiary approach, and you can gain the same result of "can't see me" without needing to dedicate an entire set for it. That's one possible way to approach it without producing a niche set, one which opens up new options. Not saying this is set in stone, but it is how the winds are currently blowing.

Does this mean that if you have a high amount of evasion(or something of that nature) in your defenses than you inherently become invisible? Rather than needing to get the power itself?

If so that would be coooolllll!

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No. Doc is referring to Set

No. Doc is referring to Set Augments. Every power set has its own Aug socket in which a unique tyle of Augment can be placed which works in conjunction with powers in the set. If you have a Protection set and place say a special Stealth Aug in the Set socket, then each of the active powers that provide protection in that set will get improved capability against perception, potentially turning hour character invisible.

The other option is if there is a Tertiary with an invisibility type power.


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What about sets like Storm

What about sets like Storm Summoning, with 'Mist' powers that make you 'stealthy', will we still be getting Invisibility and demi-Invisibility powers in our Primaries and Secondaries?

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Yes, there may be powers

Yes, there may be powers within sets which provide stealth capability. Doc was pointing out that there will be more options than having to choose a particular set to get a stealth power.


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Excellent! Be Well! Fireheart

Excellent!

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So if you have a power like

So if you have a power like Maneuvers that is a defensive PBAOE and slot it with a stealth augment would that "cast" stealth on your allies within range? Similarly for Bubbles? Or are augments tied more directly to classes and their powersets rather than a broader type of power. IE a given augment would only work for guardians defensive sets and not defensive set in general. Another question would the augment scale the level of stealth directly to the power or the total defensive attribute? IE if the power is slotted with lots of defense refinements but isn't particularly powerful IE boosts defense only 10-15% then the level of stealth provided is only "mild" whereas a power with a high contribution to defense 40-65% would render the character "superbly" stealthy OR If slotted in Maneuvers and cast on a support player with low defense would that player become only "mildly" stealthy and if cast on a stalwart with high defense would that tank vanish from existence for all time?

Really in any form or function picking up even a minimum amount of stealth via an augment like this would be highly desireable as such I expect prices on such augments to be astronomical. The equivalent of Luck of the Gambler procs in the IO system. I suppose you could also introduce various tiers of this as well where one augment only converts 25%, another 50%, and another 75% of defense to perception reduction to create a range of prices and uses depending on function this could make 50% more desirable to some classes and 75% to other classes while leaving 25% to anyone who wants to get their foot in the door. Interesting possibilities.

Kiyori: Good point. LoCG rescinds it's previous statement and amends it to: LoCG supports the skinning of cats where it implies that the cat is being given a skin. And condemns the skinning of cats where it implies the removal of skin. And continues to support the provision of chezburgers.

Redlynne
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Joined: 10/28/2013 - 21:15
Hover Snipe from Stealth.

Hover Snipe from Stealth.

Just saying that if you're going to be a Sniper, you need to be able to attack without being discovered. Now, it's perfectly fair if the Guards get "alerted" to your presence by your attacks, but it is NOT perfectly fair to just hand them your exact location (at all times!) simply because that's easier to program and they all bumrush towards you "just because" ...


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.