Hey, everyone. Recently I've been hearing that character respecs on City of Titans will allow for users to not only alter what powers in their primary/secondary powersets they have and completely change their power pools, but also let them change their secondary powerset to another. This is definitely a wonderful and convenient thing, but I think we could do better...
...How about changing primary powersets, classifications, and specifications outright?
I understand that if we go this far, we might as well create a new toon, but that's the problem- some of us don't want to lose our character levels, plot progress, etc when we go back to re-choose our abilities. It's been a pain in the arse to constantly wipe the slate clean just to test-drive the first few powers in an entire set of raw potential, and seeing the same old newb zones (ex. Atlas Park, Galaxy City, Mercy Island) after every wipe gets to be dull and repetitive after awhile.
If it's not too much trouble, could we allow for full respecs? Or is it not worth it?
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http://cityoftitans.com/forum/respecs-yeahi-went-there
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Vets started to complain about that in CoH i believe, so the DEVs found ways to allow the VETs to level up newly rolled toons faster to level 22, and the Sewers Trial was born. :)
The Sewers Trial was not meant for players New to the Game, but DEVs must have felt bad (or caved under pressure) and let everyone participate. :/
And new to semi-new (8% in total) players were also complaining about Everyone just doing the Sewers Trials and not going to the Hollows anymore (or other zones that were under level 22).
The CoH DEVs were strongly against allowing such respecs, as it would lead to level 50's rerolling into a totally different set of powers without having to actually EARN THEM. Its a right of passage that cant be given away so freely.
Well, my sense of balance states that you have to EARN that power by leveling up to it. So, if you level up on that toon and decided to respec to a totoally Different Specification, I say No. You gottz'ta Put in the Time, if you did the Crime. Err, wait thats not the right saying is it? :<
Ancillary, or Epic pools, or whatever they are called.. were used to let the Player Decide how to Smooth out their character in the high levels. I dont know if CoT will use that approach or try and provide the players ways of smoothing their character out in the Classifications/Specifications.
Plus, if players can get really high in Level, no one would ever play content at the 1 to 20 levels anymore. It would be WORSE than having Sewers Trials for All.
So, there are some BIG Negatives to allowing Mid Life Crisis Respecs. :P
The OP went on about respecs, but I don't recall there being any specific mention to this idea...
Thank you for pointing that out. The low-level maps would be very empty, now wouldn't they? I suppose there could be instances of toons at a lower level generated to compensate, but those wouldn't be real players... There's no easy way around that, huh?
*IDEA*
How about we make people purchase full respecs so as to discourage it but still leave it on the table for toons too broken for the player to tolerate? That could keep things balanced!
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My complaint is the destruction of the altaholic part of CoX that, i believe, most enjoyed about CoX. Need to limit the ability to change primary and secondary powersets. Powers yes and masteries is yes but not the powersets themselves like fire melee, willpower, and such (however is works).
-AlienMafia (Justice Server)
Main: Thorns 13xx Badges
The current aim is to allow everything EXCEPT Primary, both in the Class and Powerset.
So I make a Gunner (RangedDPS/Def) with Burning/Avoidance* as my sets.
I can respect to a Partisan (RangedDPS/Support) and change to Burning/Resistance*
I cant change from Ranger (RangedDPS/X) to Stalwart (Def/X).
* Set names are pulled from nowhere just as examples.
Like AlienMafia I agree that allowing Primary Respecs should not be allowed - however I am open to the idea of a complete respect being available BEFORE level 10-12 as by this time you should have some idea how the Class/Spec/Mastery plays and be able to decide to swap everything. Even though the first 10 levels wont take THAT long it could take 1-5+ hours and after 5 hours of slogging it through as something you don't like you can instead swap everything, try something else and if you still don't like it after that (must chose to respect again before gaining another level) then try again. Maybe. Not sure.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
This has been brought up before, and as myself and others responded - total respecs would probably be a bad idea. Secondary powers/specifications? Sure. Masteries? Sure. Re-jigging your primary powers within the selected set? Sure. But burning the entire thing down and re-selecting everything? Might as well just roll a brand new character at that point.
Besides - do we really want max level people suddenly respeccing into a completely different classification without learning how to use the powers via levelling? If you thought the "AE Babies" were bad - at least they had SOME experience with their powers.
Edit: And Izzy's thoughts on the potential effects on the populations of lower-level zones is insightful as well. You would get people simply re-rolling the same max-level character over and over instead of trying out different characters at different levels.
Another concern is how something like this would interact with Builds? I mean - I don't think it would be a good idea to let a single character have a Defense/Ranged build and a Melee/Support build. Swapping out Specifications - maybe - but a complete primary role change? I think it would be a little abusive.
Or the DBL-XP babies going from lvl1-50 in a single weekend wondering why all of a sudden when not Steam Rolling with others that they are running our of End when they don't have Stamina slotted at all, let along with extra Slots added.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
...Never heard of that crowd before. I seriously had no idea you could go from 1-50 in a weekend! The most I ever jumped on those Double-XP weeks was, like, 20 levels.
Ah yeah, that's a new problem. If you could respec on the fly, then you could change to whatever role you want when you enter a supergroup or team. Team has no healers? Switch to a Buff class. Team has no tank? Switch to a Defense class. Multi-classing would be a major issue there.
[hr]
So if I'm reading everything right, everything but changing classes is permissible. Possible exceptions allowing for changing primaries includes being low-level enough to the point where it doesn't matter, waiting a month or 6 before being allowed to change primaries, or paying with in-game points or real-life dollars to discourage rampant respec'ing.
Any other complaints? Any objections to the possible fixes? Or have we reached our conclusion?
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I think the developers are being more than generous enough on the respec front by effectively allowing us to switch within an achetypeal grouping (Blaster/Corruptor/blaster-scrapper-semi-hybrid) which couldn't be done in CoH, as well as allowing us to actually change an entire powerset with a respec even if we don't change from the subgroup that we're entrenched in.
Asking for more when we're already being given this much is just acting like Veruca Salt, and what you are asking would be detrimental to the game as a whole. To the developers I say keep going as planned and ignore those that demand even more when what we're being given is already more than what we lost.
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
I've already voiced my opinion on this in the above-referenced thread. I will repeat my stance here: I'm against the "full respec" idea for the reasons people above have pointed out, and because I feel that it eliminates the need for alts, extra server slots, etc. Not to mention the effect it would have on PVP. if people could respec their toon every day or two to try to change tactics and keep the competition guessing. also, badg hunters would be able to spec intoa blaster to get damage and defeat badges, then spec into a tanker to get resistance and damage received badges, then spec into a defender to get healing badges aall on the same toon. I don't want that. I am also against the "free partial respec" idea that had been floated whereby one would be able to try out a power for a level or two then decide against it. I think the general base rules should be fairly restrictive and then there should be various purchasable items in the store that would free up some of those restrictions for money, etc. Frankly I'm not even really a fan of the ability to respec out of a secondary set. There is such a thing as mucking a toon and starting over.
Ideas like the full respec, etc are an example of the gamer mind trying to win the game in the design stage so that it comes pre-won out of the box and doesn't need to be played. It is the equivalent of the prisoners designing the jail.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
You always could do this 'full respec' in CoH. It's called rolling an Alt.
Remember, CoH didn't have the sort of 'Endgame' that games like WoW and others of that ilk had/have. There's no reason to have a 'Conservation of Grind' mechanism.
Be Well!
Fireheart
On the first DXP weekend we ran a group of 8 level 1s 1-50 which was an absolute blast just doing content (mainly TFs), so it could be done without PLing from higher level people. My character had 40 hours of play on the clock at the end, but some of that was in WWs. I was not the best PLer in the world, but I could level a character 1-50 in 6 hours in AE without exploits, so it wasn't the fastest way to do it.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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Well, thanks for sharing that! I'd be amazed if I got to see it for myself on CoT...
Anyway, I presume from the commentary that full respecs are a [i]"no"[/i] regardless of what aforementioned twist (READ: My last post) is implemented.
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Full Respec = Make an alt.
There's your full respec. Be happy they're even working on replacing what we lost.
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
Im down for full respec option (not primary) prior to lvl 10-15 and only powers/masteries respec after this point to allow for alting. Not the powersets themselves but just the powers like CoX. Power pools is respeced in both cases just like CoX
-AlienMafia (Justice Server)
Main: Thorns 13xx Badges
Yes, thank you for repeating that. The only problem is that the whole point of respecs is to fix up your character WITHOUT losing all your progress. However, seeing how this thread is going, that's the closest we will ever get to a full respec.
Good riddance.
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You can go a long way towards fixing your character with a CoH style respec, what you want is to be able to try a different character, which is not what respecs are for. In CoH terms, being allowed to alter your fire/empathy controller to a fire/cold or a fire/kin would shorten the lifespan of the game significantly.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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Hence, starting a new character appears to be the closest we can get to a full respec.
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Starting a new character is a new character, a full respec is the same as a respec since every respec is a full respec, it's just that YOU want a respec to mean 'I change everything I want to about my bit of data here' while everyone else knows that the devs plan for a respec to allow for everything except your primary powerset to change. Since your primary powerset determines your classification, that can never change as well.
YOU want more when this much is already far more than what CoH allowed. We're going to be able to switch a blaster into a corruptor set of power choices with a respec, this is already an issue with reducing the need to make alt characters.
You want to make it so that one need never make more than one character, ever, in order to try every combination the game has to offer. That will kill this game since every hero would be able to do everything rather than having one thing as a signature and a few other things that they can do in a more limited fashion.
You want to be able to take a scrapper or whatever the easiest class to level to 50 is and then be able to use that to make whatever is needed rather than having to play the game to be able to have alts that you can bring in to handle the variety of possible tasks at hand.
You are, in essence, demanding that the devs make the game all about getting to 50 so you can do anything at 50 with one character being able to do anything you want at any time you want rather than making the game about the experience of your hero as they grow into their powers and how they fit into the world around them with different heroes having different experiences.
The devs want to give us a great big world with a ton of options as well as having less restrictions on the definition of a single hero than we had in the past, and you want them to make the game smaller by requiring that every player ever need only a single hero. Would some player still alt? Yes, but they would be laughed at for doing things the old way by those neanderthals like yourself that want everything to be easy and done at maximum power all the time with no setbacks.
You are the cancer that is killing gaming by demanding that choices have no impact and that everything be handed to you on a silver platter with all options enabled rather than having to EARN the right to use those options.
We're already being given the option of turning a brute into a scrapper just by switching masteries. Nevermind the fact that we might be able to turn a Blaster into a Corruptor or a Dominator into a Controller; you want to be able to turn a Blaster into a Mastermind because these aren't characters, they're tiny little pieces of data to be manipulated the way you see fit. They have no personality or iconic features since they're just data. There's nothing setting one apart from another because they're just data.
I find your point of view about how the game should work to be offensive and extremely narrow-minded about long-term consequences.
As for being able to fix a character with a respec? YES, you can DO that, you just can't change every single possible thing about them. You can turn your Fire/kin controller into a Fire/Psi Dominator, or your Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster into an Assault Rifle/Stone Armor pseudo-VEAT called the Gunner specification, but you're throwing a tantrum over the fact that you can't turn it into a Fire Melee/Willpower Brute because FUCK HAVING UNIQUE CHARACTERS, I WANT EVERYTHING!
The original Lady of Ysgard. -Virtue
[img]http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/203/c/5/Updated_Homage_by_Voldine.jpg[/img]
[b]Full: [i]ifo͝ol/[/i] adjective: Not lacking or omitting anything; complete.[/b] By definition, [i]"I change everything I want to about my bit of data here"[/i] would be a [i]full[/i] respec, since it covers all powers and powersets. As CoT plans on allowing you to change your secondary powerset it has injected powersets into the values affected by a respec and therefore including only a part of that value would not make it [i]"full"[/i] in the CoT respect. In CoX, however, choosing a new powerset- primary or secondary- would be [i]"overflowing," "excessive,"[/i] or what-have-you. Therefore I technically did, in fact, ask for a [i]full respec[/i] for this game, although at the same time- depending on perspective- I asked for an [i]excessive respec[/i] for CoT, as well.
Yes, Captain Obvious. Thank you for pointing out- once more- what everyone before you just uttered.
First of all, sandbox games/modes are built around such principles. If CoT ever released such a mode, then everything you just said would be moot. Other than that, you've once again paraphrased everyone else. [i]Argumentum ad nauseam.[/i]
Second of all, cursing is the last resort of a weak mind. By cursing- which literally means to utter offensive words in anger or annoyance- which thus technically includes insults- you have lost my ability to respect your argument.
This was designed partly to see the flaws of such an idea. I was unsure what the long-term effects of a full respec would be, so I created this thread for the express purpose of determining what to do about full respecs. As I had mostly positive facts to go by, I was obviously initially an optimist looking for an excuse to look more critically at the subject. As people like you (in regards to argumentative position, at least) have pointed out the flaws, I have learned what to and not to do in a MMORPG.
This, of course, demonstrates [i]unintentional[/i] offense and a [i]broad[/i] mind looking for answers. Note how I posed the last line of my OP for proof.
After being forced to endure a merciless bleeding-heart tirade for making a naive request and gently pushing for it with a polite, professional demeanor, [b]you[/b] mean to tell [b]me[/b] that [b]I[/b] am throwing a tantrum?
[i]"....................................."[/i]
You know what? Fuck this. If this goes on any longer, then all I'm going to get out of you is a wall of bold, angry profanities written in all caps. It would damage my IQ to even read it. No, seriously, I can't continue this debate until you get your act together. I'm done with you, and with that I'm excusing myself from this conversation. Bye!
[img]http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/582/418/b51.gif[/img]
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Tell us how you really feel don't hold back
...Well, as I said, I didn't know all the effects that a full respec would create. I heard few objections to it and was initially optimistic, but now I feel it would be practical to only allow it in single-player or sandbox modes unless if some serious restrictions like having to purchase it or waiting 6 months are put in place. So long as the method of application renders almost all arguments against it moot, then I'm all for full respecs.
[b]Overall, I feel hopeful that we can find a safe way to implement it.[/b]
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It's cool I know we all can't wait to see more as the game is being made and it's killing us all to find out more
Ummm. Maybe I am just throwing gasoline on a fire here but let me ask this: So the answer is just roll an alt and get power-leveled to 50 (legally or illegally) and have what you want anyway in short order? Cause that is what happened in CoH all the time. Heck we have even had devs in this very forum say how easy it was to do the 1-50 thing. Seemed to me that didn't do the game very much good either. If you do not allow this then you can bet money there will be people who will offer it as a service for a fee. Frankly, I'd rather see MWM make a buck. So, how about you pay real money, every time, no exceptions for a full respec at the CoT store?
WOAH!!! Voldine that was uncalled for.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion and should NEVER be abused for it.
AAlbusUUmbra asked/proposed a question/suggestion. He/She never got offensive or abusive, only asked questions to expand/clarify the idea and others viewpoints. You know like a discussion.
Unfortunately most ppl here disagreed with AAlbus so it could appear we were 'jumping on her/him' especially in some of the replies 'reading' as abrupt/harsh (you cant insert the correct tone in the written word).
Also AAlbus you shouldn't get defensive when people disagree with you. Unfortunately Respecs was recently discussed so for many this was a re-hashed discussion going over the same points. Just like you didn't like having the same disagreements repeated multiple times some people didn't like making the same disagreements multiple times.
But to err is to be human and we all do it from time to time.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Well, that was one of my proposals. I like the idea up until Bill Gates abuses the hell out of it.
A wise set of words, Cyber. Also, forgive me for having to ask this, but I'm not entirely sure where exactly I got defensive at. Could you clarify?
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Hi Fire Away, I believe the answer to wanting a play a new Classification should be to create a new Toon and play the game :).
Some people will always want to or try to PL, whether the game allows this with things like DBL XP sessions, or an AE type feature that can be exploited, etc, however that is not in the spirit of the game. The game is being designed so Alting is a main function. Making multiple characters to cover different aspects/playstyles, versus a single character like The Secret World or FFXIV can do. In those games there is no reason to make more than one character. No benefit outside of occasional Story-Line content or appearance. In FFXIV there are Races but the differences are very minor (Race A has 22 Str, Race F has 17 Str - that's about as big a gap as exists so its not a whole lot).
Im playing FFXIV and my main character is learning all the roles. I chose a race that is big and large (Rody something - cant be bothered Googling lol) as I went Gladiator (Tank) first and the Rody has a high Strength score. Im now doing a Pugilist and about to start an Archer. Archery is best served by Dex which my Race is OK with.
Sure I could make a new character as a Race that is High Dex but when I talk to my mates they look at me like Ive got 4 heads!! "WHY would you do that?" they ask is shock. "Just swap to a new class on your current character". Ohh yeah that's right - there are only 9 (soon to be 10) Classes (not going into Crafting classes people :)) plus 9 (soon to be 10) 'Jobs' (think prestige Classes) that require you to have levels in more than one class. So eventually on a single character I can be 10 Classes and 10 Jobs and swap freely between them. So that 10 times going through Level 1-50 (the Jobs don't level up, rather they are based on the Jobs Primary Class - Paladin is a Glad (Pri) and when I train my level 30 Glad to become a Pal I become a level 30 Pal). Sure I could then make a new Race and start again but it will be almost exactly the same. The Stat differences between Races will mean almost nothing.
In CoT my replayability will be HUGE. We will have 18 (current) Class/Specs. Each Class/Spec will have (at launch) 5 Pri and 5 Sec powerset options. Each Class/Spec will have 30 Powerset Combinations so that's 540 different combinations, not including Masteries. Each Class/Spec can chose from up to 36 different Mastery combinations. Now we have the option for 19440 different Pri/Sec/Mas combinations (I hope my math is correct lol).
If we also then look at common build types (PvE, PvP, Solo, Team) that's 77760 options.
With the current idea from CoT of allowing Respecs to include changing your Secondary Set, along with multiple Builds there is SO much you can do already with 1 character, however the playstyle will be similar for that one Character. My Stalwart, no matter what Spec I chose will still be a Defence based Primary and will still be able to perform the Tank role/playstyle. Spec A may be better than Spec B or C, along with whatever Masteries but in the end the PlayStyle is still similar.
If you then want to make a Ranged Damage dealer then then it a whole new playstyle and, in my humble opinion, a new character should be rolled.
Its been mentioned before as well to have different types of Respecs such as:
Specification Respec (Gunner > Hunter) + Mastery
Powerset Respec (Burning > Freezing) + Mastery
Powers Respec (rechoosing what powers from your current Powersets and Tertiary Sets along with all Slots)
Powers Respec2 (swap < 15 powers and all associated Slots)
Powers Respec3 (swap < 5 powers and all associated Slots)
Slots Respec (rechoose all Slots but not changing Power selection)
Slots Respec2 (rechoose < 50% Slots but not changing Power selection)
Slots Respec (rechoose <25% Slots but not changing Power selection)
Mastery Respec (Masteries only)
Edited the math :)
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Hi AAlbus,
lets me start by saying that the way I read the post to ME seemed defensive. Again it may have been the way I read it but that's the way the written word goes :)
Emphasis is mine.
Getting into who said what first wont help here. Everyone can read the thread if they want to.
Lets move on and let bygones and bygones.
This reminds me of moderating the Australia Channel on the Justice Server with Minotaur and others - ahhh fond memories... :)
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Hmm... isnt that the same approach that Fly By Nights take? ;)
And anyways.. if MWM would allow for Full Respects for Masteries and Specifications and whatever else mentioned... there wont be a long future for CoT. The longer you stay on a Toon at a certain Level, the faster the game becomes Dull, since Only So Much Content Exists for that level range.
LMFAO, you gotta hate those soulless walls of text! They don't say crap about how you're really feeling.
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Very true AAlbus.
Unless you spend a lot of time explaining in depth what you mean to avoid miscommunicating or flooding your posts with emotes, which even then may not help, someone will always misinterpret what you mean.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I'd always wondered how it might work, and occasionally wished I could do this in CoH.
Then I got Rift, which I've been playing for a while. With any of the four classes (Warrior, Mage, Cleric, Rogue), you can have any of the major specializations as of the most recent patch (DPS, support/heals, tank). If you buy the expansion materials, of course.
There is no reason to roll an alt, as near as I can tell, unless you really want to do something you can already do with a different set of icons.
I've made myself new "roles" on my single level 60. Having a ton of new powers and abilities is fun. And compared to how I play the version I leveled all the way up, I'm *terrible* with them until I've had sufficient time to inflict my terribleness on enough teammates to figure out how to be somewhat less terrible.
In theory, I understand the appeal. Having now tried something very similar in practice, I'm finding that it really diminishes the fun of the game to suddenly have a max-level character I don't know how to play well, and actively discourages me from making new characters to try the different play styles because it seems like a waste of time.
I dunno, the whole thing strikes me as weird. People seem happy and content (even brag about) the whole idea behind the power-leveling thing. I don't get the rationale that it's ok as long as it's a form of play they practice and acknowledge. But let somebody mention a full respec (under any circumstances) and it's suddenly like they are breaking the game somehow.
Every level based game will have PLing to some extent, whether the game wants it to be there or not and those that can or do will often brag "Yeah I got to max level in X hrs by doing Y". If the game allow that then good for them. If it is a loop-hole then good for them and 'soon' the devs will block it.
I don't think that the Devs will find PLing 'OK' - sure they may have DBL-XP weekends 2-3 times a year or allow for sale from the Game Store XP Boosters (+x% XP for 2 hours of gameplay, etc) but that's different to exploiting something.
Don't forget that for a lot of AT's and the individual Sets they played differently. Changing a Lvl 50 Inv Tank into a Fire Tank without learning the differences will result in the player being VERY surprised by how squishy they are.
Making my Lvl 50 Blaster into a Lvl 50 Controller is also very different.
I personally don't see why you would want to do a Full Respec as it will WIPE your old character, only keeping the Levels/badges/accolades/Boosts/etc. It means that If you Full Respec your Enforcer (meleeDPS) to a Ranger (rangedDPS) that you can no longer use that Enforcer. "ITF lf1m - melee dps preferred" = you are now out of luck.
Doing things like TSW/FFXIV is not a Respec but is making an additional aspect and going back to Level 1. You can still swap back and forth between Melee and Ranged but that is NOT a respect.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
You will always find somebody that will find some way to PL a character. CoH Devs tried their best to keep people from doing it, but every time they shut one down another popped up. Towards the end I believe the Devs started giving up trying so hard to shut it down. While I would hope and understand that the Devs of CoT will want to try to curtail this as much as they can, inevitably I believe people will always find some way to PL. Something I'd like to see CoT do that CoH didn't would be to allow us to purchase something that would allow us to instantly make a max level character once we have achieved max level on our own in the game. I had over 20 level 50's on CoH, the constant grind to level 50 wore on my nerves after a while and many times I wished I could just start out at level 50.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Hi oOStaticOo, I was the same with a large number of 50's and was 'getting over' the low level stuff.
I'd like to see a way to skip the first X levels (15-20) when we have Max Level 50 but only after:
1) You already have 5+ Max Level characters
2) You already have a max level character with one of the Powersets (50 SD/BA Tank I can make a lvl 20 DM/SD Brute) - maaaaaaybeeee??
3) You can only skip levels for a Class you already have at max level
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
My suggestion is that we wait until we have a game to play, and then postpone the discussion about some kind of official PLing (be it purchasing a max level character or a full respec) for at least 36 to 48 months.
I have to admit, I am a little flabbergasted that people are already discussing ways and means to skip content.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I have no problem jumping off this bridge when we get to it. I just wish out loud there was a way to avoid the "seedy" side of gameplay. In CoH it was a familiar pattern. The devs flat out refused you the abilty to do X. Doing X was pure evil under any circumstances and there were people ready to point out the error of your ways for even mentioning it in the strongest of terms. But... (nod-nod, wink--wink, nudge-nudge) if you were a "smart' player there was a way you could accomplish the equivalent of X. Of course that sometimes meant doing something "shady" and was more of a detriment to the game than allowing X (under controlled and well thought out circumstances) in the first place. A level 50 pl-ed Fire Tank has little or no more play experience than one converted in a full respec. If people want to change from AT A to AT B they are going to figure out a way to do it... as quickly and as easily as they can... even if it means a trip to the seedy side of town.
Hmmm.. that argument sounds too close to the one to Legalize Pot. :/
Darth,
I think a lot of people are also coming in from the stand point of lost characters from CoH once they shut down. I know I had a lot of favorite level 50 characters that I enjoyed playing. Now I can't play them anymore. CoT will hopefully give us back to some extent those characters. I, for one, would love to have back my level 50 characters again. I'm not saying I'm not going to roll up new characters and play them to max level so I can enjoy all the new content and experience the new world. I'm just saying that after a certain point in time after playing all the different types of alts there are, you already know how they are supposed to be played and grinding them all to max level gets repetitive and boring. Why not reward a player that's managed to get several characters to max level by allowing them the option of being able to roll up a new character either at a certain level they want or max level?
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
hehe.. maybe after 8-10 years.. when the game starts to die out, and not many people are invested in what happens, DEV's could allow it. ;) But if it was up to me, I'd find OTHER ways to make CoT interesting, and never give in to such a request. Because, to me, as soon as I would do that.. i would feel like im the Rich Parent spoiling his brat child who grows up like Billy Madison. ;)
[img]http://www.90smovies.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/key_art_billy_madison.jpg[/img]
In 8 to 10 years there would be no need for this as most people who are still playing this game will have already achieved 20 or more max level characters. They are already planning on introducing a system where you can unlock stuff through regular game play as well as purchase through a cash shop. So why not introduce this concept as well? You can either pay MWM X amount of dollars to be able to instantly make a max level character, or X level character, or you can grind your way to max level yourself and have the option unlocked. For those that don't want to grind that's X amount of dollars per max level character somebody is willing to dish out. For those that don't mind the grind, well they've earned the ability to now have the option to start out a character at either max level or X level. It's not a matter of making the game more or less interesting, it's allowing options. Some people love playing the game and enjoying all the content, some like having a max level character and running all the "End-game" content with fellow friends. As I've stated, I had many level 50 characters in CoH. This in no way diminished my love of CoH. I PL'd lots of my friends to level 50 and vice-versa so we could all run ITF's or Incarnate Trials as often as we wanted because that's what we loved to do.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Actually this tangent discussion, which I myself took part of, regarding skipping content is not covered by the topic and should be moved into its own thread if someone wants to make one. This thread is about the idea of allowing FULL Respecs of every part of your character.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
+1
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I was mislead I came because I thought it had to do something with Rodney dangerfield !
A lot of good stuff said here. On the one hand, there WAS PLing in CoH and the RMTs made money from it. Maybe if CoH had had a system where they could just buy it at the same price that money would have stayed 'in house?' We'll never know.
I used to be in the camp that PLing and Pay to Level are always bad for the game but some of what has been said here is making me pause. Let's examine WHY we think PLing and paying for levels is bad:
1) Fewer players in the early levels. This is always a bad thing because it means nobody using the content and new players (who may not WANT to PL) have nobody to team with. An empty game is unattractive.
2) Players don't know how to use their powers properly. This has ALWAYS been a problem. I remember one epic team where the Tank bragged about having 3 ACC enhancers on Taunt...an auto-hit power...because the description was not totally clear that it WAS auto-hit.
3) Fewer alts means less player retention. This is also common. How many of us were still around when they made The Announcement? 100,000? Why was that if the game was SO great? Maybe because it was 8 years old and some had moved on? Maybe because many of the features promised never arrived? Doesn't matter. The point is that literally MILLIONS of characters were in the system when the lights went out. The players would not have made so many if alting were not a big part of the game.
So...IF we were to do the 'Total Respec' thing and allow a character to basically be rebuilt what would it harm? Point 1 would happen for sure. Fewer low-level toons means an empty game right when potential new players are poking their nose in to take a look. I don't see how the Total Respec idea can NOT conflict with the Empty Game problem. The two are directly opposed. Point 2 will ALWAYS be a problem to a certain extent. We can try to minimize it but it'll never go away completely. Like bad weather, we need to cope with it and move on. Point 3 is also directly opposed to the Total Respec. I don't see any happy medium between the two.
Now there are a couple of circumstances where I WOULD be willing to support the Total Respec option: One is as a Vet Reward for staying with the game. At the 1-year anniversary players would get the chance to do a total rebuild on exactly ONE character in their stable. That character would have to be at 50 and would have to have been created a year earlier (so this would be a rolling reward at the PLAYER'S 1-year anniversary, not the game's). So no chance of it being a brand new toon just built and PL'd up.
The second time would assume that we're using some sort of Merits or Points system to earn currency for the store. At some milestone (1000 Merits or whatever) the player can completely respec ONE toon. Said toon would have to undergo a fairly arduous TF and then spend the Merits. This would simulate the rare but viable comic book idea of a character undergoing some great transformation that completely changes them.
So there we go...a happy medium. All players would be able to completely respec TWO and exactly two characters per account. The first would take a year to earn, the second likely much longer based on the Merit system. This can be used to retain those few players who only build a few toons and resist Altitis without turning character recreation into a free-for-all. I can't see it being available to everyone all the time, even for a fee. That would kill the game for sure IMHO.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Hmm... you those card games... especially the ones you just started today and DONT know how to play? But they have a Hint Button you can click to show you what you can do next.
What if there was something like a hint n00bs could select and it could show them a complete slotting using generic enhancements? (or Boosts Enhancements, or whatever CoT will use)
ex:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/7bYt68l.png[/img]
As far as Comicsluvr's second problem ("2" above), I don't consider it a problem for me if some other person doesn't understand how I think they should try to utilize their powers for what I consider to be the optimum effects. I prefer to let them organically figure out for themselves what they feel works best on their own or else look up advice on the forums/wiki and try to make a more-informed decision if they' want to. That's what that stuff is for. In any event, it's their toon, and how they build it and slot it is not for anyone else to call "good" or "bad" really, especially not me, because it's not my toon and this stuff is really all subjective anyway. I'm not against a MIDS-like thing that lets you see the stats, etc when trying to pick powers and/or when respeccing and/or just whenever you want to look at that stuff, but I disagree philosophically that people should be taught what the "good" build is for their chosen toon. That's for me, the player of the toon to decide, and nobody else. You think my build is "bad"? Well, you can go F@$K yourself. This is how _I_ want it to be. Me--the guy who PLAYS the toon--not you. Where do YOU get off telling ME how I have to build MY toon anyway?
As far as the "one time only, vet reward full respec" idea, I'll admit it doesn't have the same issues that the earlier "any time you want, as often as you want" idea has, but if I knew it was coming in a year and didn't want to wait that long, wouldn't I just scrap my toon and make a new one with the same name anyway? I could probably get him to level 50 or whatever in the time it takes me to wait for the one-time only veteran respec to kick in. As a future subscriber I'm not against it as a possible reward, or even as a possible "one per account" purchaseable thing, but I don't know if I'd ever use it.
Anything where players say to themselves "If only they made THIS part of the game different in THAT way, then I wouldn't have to play it as much, I could just have my toon in the state I feel is perfect quicker and more easily, then I'd finally be done." is not a way of improving the game. Things like this are something the human brain constantly tries to do to make life easier for itself and be more efficient, and in life this is often a boon for oneself when you can eliminate unnecessary work. In the game design process, all it does is shortcut the game to "completion" faster, and that's actually counterproductive from a game design sense, because it's not the end but rather the journey that's the fun part of the game. The fun to be had in a game is in the playing of the game, if you eliminate that, what are you left with? What we should be doing is trying to figure out ways of making the content itself more fun, not trying to figure out ways to reduce or eliminate the need for it in the first place. If anything the respec process should be something that's limited and complicated enough that you have to plan for it, think about it, and strategize over it, that way its an interesting and fun challenge to try to optimize your guy while also staying somewhat true to your original concept and storyline.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising