Hospital Response = Time versus IGC

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Redlynne
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Hospital Response = Time versus IGC

So something that I've been noodling over for a little while in response to the What Happens When Your Character Is Defeated thread basically comes down to the notion of how "Hospitals work" game mechanically, and should those mechanics even bother making any nods towards real(ish) world expectations of how things "ought to work" in a City of Titans such that it doesn't feel either gimptacular and/or ridiculous.

The first point I want to bring up is ... what is the Hospital Response Time when a PC gets Defeated?

Out in the real world, response times vary pretty widely in terms of how long it takes to get to a hospital, although there are of course different means and methods (up to and including VTOL helicopter flights). But the one thing that I think we can all agree on is that (out in the real world) response time to a medical emergency usually isn't "instant" in terms of how long it takes people to get delivered to a hospital. So a time delay (cue ambulance siren sound FX) would seem to be appropriate if it can be worked into things in some form or fashion.

However, ANY sort of time delay is going to face pushback from Players ... which is where IGC can come in (partly as a sink, but also as an alternative "cost" to the PC). Now we're all familiar with the arguments around "you want faster service you're going to have to pay more" that is linked to the old adage Time Is Money that came into use once clocks became a part of people's daily lives centuries ago.

So why not combine these two things together for determining Hospital Response after a PC gets defeated? The basic way it would work is like this:

When your PC is defeated, a countdown, measured in seconds begins. The duration of this countdown is determined by what combat Level your PC is.
If you're Level 1, the countdown is 1 second.
If you're Level 10, the countdown is 10 seconds.
If you're Level 30, the countdown is 30 seconds.
If you're Level 50, the countdown is 50 seconds.

When the countdown reaches zero seconds, you can be "revived" at a Hospital at no IGC cost.

However, if you do not wish to wait that long for a "free" Hospital trip, you can AT ANY TIME choose to pay IGC for a "faster" trip to the Hospital, thereby "waiving" any of the remaining countdown duration. The IGC cost for exercising this option ought to be on a geometrically increasing scale ... something like (countdown time remaining)2 or even (countdown time remaining)3 depending on how "plentiful" IGC is within the game's economy. Basically, the UI would show you a steadily decreasing IGC cost to be revived at a Hosptial "now" until you press the button, with the IGC cost eventually reaching ZERO if you spend the time to wait long enough to exercise the "freebie" option.

In other words ... TIME equals IGC when it comes to needing to revive at a Hospital.

Because the whole thing works on a sliding scale, it becomes a matter of letting everyone "choose their own pain point" in terms of how much they value the Player's TIME versus the accumulated IGC resource that the PC has amassed.

So if using a square of second remaining metric, for a level 20 character the IGC costs would break down like this:

20 seconds remaining: 400 IGC
19 seconds remaining: 361 IGC
18 seconds remaining: 324 IGC
17 seconds remaining: 289 IGC
16 seconds remaining: 256 IGC
15 seconds remaining: 225 IGC
14 seconds remaining: 196 IGC
13 seconds remaining: 169 IGC
12 seconds remaining: 144 IGC
11 seconds remaining: 121 IGC
10 seconds remaining: 100 IGC
9 seconds remaining: 81 IGC
8 seconds remaining: 64 IGC
7 seconds remaining: 49 IGC
6 seconds remaining: 36 IGC
5 seconds remaining: 25 IGC
4 seconds remaining: 16 IGC
3 seconds remaining: 9 IGC
2 seconds remaining: 4 IGC
1 seconds remaining: 1 IGC
0 seconds remaining: 0 IGC (free transportation to the Hospital)

This would then represent one of the rare instances where an outcome becomes MORE expensive the higher your PC's Level, since using a square of (duration remaining) would mean that a Level 50 PC would need to pay 2500 IGC for an "instant" Hospital trip (at 50 seconds remaining), but would only need to pay 1600 IGC if the Player could bear to wait a mere 10 seconds before getting sent to the Hospital (at 40 second remaining). The key point here is that "instant" Hospital trips are always an option ... but if that option gets exercised past the "starter" Levels of the game, it's going to start costing you IGC.

The other thing is that for higher Level PCs, there's going to come a point of diminishing returns for waiting additional time when you're in a rush. So for a Level 50, waiting the first 10 seconds yields a 2500-1600=900 IGC savings, which might be worthwhile ... but the last 10 seconds only yields a 100-0=100 IGC savings, which might be something that many Players are willing to pay to skip past and get back to playing the game that much faster. The point being that every Player is going to have a different "okay, NOW" point in the countdown when it is worth it to them to pay IGC to hurry things up and get back to playing the game ... and that's by design and intent. By putting everything on a sliding scale in which Players can exchange IGC earned for avoiding time lost "waiting" for a trip to the Hospital (insert ambulance sound FX) it then puts the Player in a position of needing to DECIDE which is more valuable to them ... TIME or IGC ... with a predictable "unit of exchange" put in place between the two so that Players can make informed decisions regarding this question after their PC has been Defeated and needs to be taken to a Hospital.

Now, would this one single solitary IGC sink be intended to solve every problem of economic inflation in the game? Of course not! That would be silly!
But presenting every Player with a CHOICE of spending either Time or IGC after a Defeat would offer Players an incentive to burn their IGC for faster "service" after being Defeated and needing to go to a Hospital, and I'm thinking that such an IGC sink could help contribute to combating rampant inflation in the game, particularly since it would be an entirely OPTIONAL expenditure on the part of the Player. Don't want your Hospital trips to cost you IGC? Well then just wait (Character Level) seconds before clicking the Go To Hospital button and it'll cost you no IGC at all!

So ... Time versus IGC ... in the context of Hospital services. Who's with me?


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Radiac
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I like this idea because if

I like this idea because if some version of it were in place, the game devs could then design all sorts of stuff that works around it or avoids it. Rez powers, SG base med evac, Reserve Wakies, etc. I would add that I think the IGC cost should always be in the form of debt acquired, not actual in-hand IGC lost, as some people might get defeated while broke.

If we're going by CoX INF standards, I think the debt acquired by a level-capped toon ought to come out to like 50,000-100,000INF (the approximate cost of a decent level 50 SO, IIRC). Then you could have a number of ways to reduce or eliminate that.

Having a personal lair med evac kit might cost some up-front IGC, but give you cheaper rezzes, and/or shorter overall "return to the action" time for your IGC. Same for your SG's kit.

Doing missions for the hospital NPCs might get you better rates.

Powers that can Rez allies would become more desirable, just based on the IGC savings alone, not to mention the time factor. I still think they should be usable for other things when people manage NOT to get killed, otherwise the power is terrible, but that's just me.

People would maybe have more reason to try to keep a wakie in reserve (or more accurately, to devote some amount of reserves accumulated to self rez effects).

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I'm sure I've seen this idea

I'm sure I've seen this idea before. Linking the time to the level may be new, though....

But it answers the main problems with IGC sinks in many other games I've seen. It continues to be effective at the highest level (unlike the gear degradation I've seen mentioned that CoX had) and it is as voluntary as even a Libertarian can ask for. Don't want to pay? Wait a minute. ^_^

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A person on a team ought to

A person on a team ought to stop getting team-generated XP, IGC, and loot while they await rez, I think. Really, any time you're not on the mission map and/or unconscious, no loot for you. Because that causes people to NOT want to wait the 30 sec.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

A person on a team ought to stop getting team-generated XP, IGC, and loot while they await rez, I think. Really, any time you're not on the mission map and/or unconscious, no loot for you. Because that causes people to NOT want to wait the 30 sec.

That'd be great if you fall just before the big boss dies. Hey wanted XP, money, or drops from this boss? Denied. You died, so sad, do it again!

Edit: Maybe having a thing where you stop gaining after a period of time to stop/slow down farming missions. I remember joining a farming mission on CoX where I spent most of the time on the floor... But I guess that wouldn't work either as, at least in CoX, you fully heal when you level.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

I'm sure I've seen this idea before. Linking the time to the level may be new, though....

I'm sure if I dig far enough back in the archives, I posted this idea even earlier than that. I'm just reposting it now to bring the notion back into circulation ... and because I had the idea of linking the IGC cost to the Time Remaining counter in a predictably scaling way that makes it easy to anticipate "when to push the button" if the Player is sensitive to price points of either Time or IGC.

Foradain wrote:

But it answers the main problems with IGC sinks in many other games I've seen. It continues to be effective at the highest level (unlike the gear degradation I've seen mentioned that CoX had) and it is as voluntary as even a Libertarian can ask for. Don't want to pay? Wait a minute. ^_^

I like the fact that the "punishment" to low Level PCs is either negligible or non-existent and it only starts becoming something that "bites" once the Player has enough experience with their PC to start making a legitimate difference to the calculus of options. That way, it doesn't hit you too hard when you're "young" but it will hit you hard(er) once you ought to know better (particularly at the Level Cap). It also provides the necessary NEGATIVE reinforcement needed to inform Players that getting Defeated is something to be AVOIDED rather than being a slap on the wrist (by a folded hanky). But yeah, "scaling" it to match the Character Level is what makes it work.


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I personally don't like

I personally don't like timers attached to things that prevent me from being able to rez at my convenience/leisure/whenever I damn well want. Playing CoH/V spoiled me in the sense of expecting to be able to get back up and into the action without much delay with either a readily available inspiration or a rez from the various support ATs. Come to find out, not many other games that I've played since the shutdown support such an idea. Take Secret World, for instance. Even in their relaunch from TSW, SWL still has that during instanced dungeons/raids when you die, you can't get back into the fight, which could actually lead to the failure of the objective and often does. You literally have to just wait and either your team completes the objective without you or they fail and you have to start over. I find this level of accountability draconian and completely unnecessary. I get that they need to have consequences for dying but I've always felt that it was excessive and that failure should be mostly on the player who died and less of an influence of the team or the outcome of the objective.
I know the comparison isn't exact, but I'm basically saying is that I disagree with cooldowns on revivals. Almost a minute at max level for then the inconvenience of having to run back from the hospital? Yeah, no thanks. I believe I've voiced elsewhere that I felt having to trek back to the mission was punishment enough in regards to time lost.

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I can see where Cobalt here

I can see where Cobalt here is coming from. Given a long wait time to rez that'd probably be where I'd switch characters or take a break from the game (as in I'd wait, return the the hospital then log out either to switch characters, make a new one, or do something else). Which the latter isn't what you'd want to foster.

No one enjoys dying in video games (statistically someone probably does, but anyway) and the fact that you went down and now have to trek back to the mission (something I found really annoying to do in CoX which is why I always had 2 wakies whenever I could) is punishment enough.

Maybe (probably suggesting this because I've been playing it) take a page from Borderlands and have rezzing at a hospital just take like 10% of your IGC. Then you could have SG bases take less when they're upgraded or something. And/Or doing missions for certain factions could do that. Then you could also sell in the cash shop either things that lessen this cost for a time and/or negate it entirely for X number of revives.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Cobalt, PH, you two have

Cobalt, PH, you two have misunderstood it.

The count down is only for a zero cost rezz at the hospital, possibly personal/SG base. All other forms of rezz are not affected by this count down and can be done at will.

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You can't fool us, Redlynne.

You can't fool us, Redlynne. You've resurrected an idea you posted back in 2014.

I like the concept of playing the player's motivations against each other. This kind of tradeoff is good in my mind as it creates internal struggle and adds drama to the player's experience..

I do have a fundamental problem with the concept, however; but since I refuse to cast criticism without a positive suggestion for improvement, I have one of those as well.

The problem is the wait. I think that imposing a period of time where the player is logged into the game but is unable to enjoy playing the game is probably the worst form of death penalty there is. Its even worse in multiplayer games where victims get to passively sit there and watch everyone else actively playing and enjoying the game. Making it fungible for IGC is basically blackmailing players into paying money to play the game. Because if they don't pay, the can't play until the timer expires.

One suggestion I have seen other games use is IGC or cash shop items to allow a resurrect in situ versus at the hospital. I'm not sure if that would be a good choice for CoT, however. One reason is because we will most likely have self-rez as one way of spending our reserves, just as we had 'wakies' in CoX. Making in situ rez an IGC or cash shop item kind of messes with that whole reserves mechanic and the already-established tradeoffs that players have to face with it. Even though, I still find it more attractive than making a player stare at a timer or pay to play.

Assuming we're going with your idea of making a player pay money and hospitals are part of the deal, you could pay money instead for an instant-teleport back to the site of your most recent defeat. I think this is a much better scenario than using a wait timer, and it accomplishes nearly the same tradeoff: to wit, time versus money. The difference being that the time we are saving is the time running across the map.

And yes, there is a big difference between running across a map and stewing in your chair doing nothing, so don't any of you lurkers try to say there isn't.

Edit: It took me so long to write this... there were no other posts when I started it.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Cobalt, PH, you two have misunderstood it.
The count down is only for a zero cost rezz at the hospital, possibly personal/SG base. All other forms of rezz are not affected by this count down and can be done at will.

No, I understood it perfectly. As I said having to trek back to the mission is punishment enough. As in having to go back is enough without the wait -or- an IGC payment. And my other idea where instead of a wait or pay you just subtract a percentage of your IGC when you revive at the hospital i feel would be better.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Cobalt, PH, you two have misunderstood it.
The count down is only for a zero cost rezz at the hospital, possibly personal/SG base. All other forms of rezz are not affected by this count down and can be done at will.

Oh, I got it.

Edit: What PH said.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

You can't fool us, Redlynne. You've resurrected an idea you posted back in 2014.

Yup, that's where I first posted it ... over 3 years ago now. Your Search Fu is better than mine in this case.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I personally don't like timers attached to things that prevent me from being able to rez at my convenience/leisure/whenever I damn well want.

/em polite cough

You CAN still rez at your convenience/leisure/whenever you damn well want. If you're defeated and want to rez INSTANTLY ... YOU CAN. It'll cost you IGC to do so, but you can still do that. No waiting, fastest service to appearing in the hospital (Medi-port!). It'll cost you more IGC to do that rather than waiting, but ... and I'm going to stress this in case the point got missed ... YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I'm basically saying is that I disagree with cooldowns on revivals.

If I was talking about putting a cooldown on ANY AND ALL revivals of any kind, I'd be right there with you in objecting most strenuously.

Fortunately, that's not what I proposed.

Revival by Power (either self or from others): at any time, no "extra charge" in IGC
Revival in place by use of "Wakie" Inspiration: at any time, no "extra change" in IGC
Revival in a Hospital: either pay IGC for a quick trip to the hospital NOW ... OR ... wait out the countdown timer for a "free trip" to the hospital ... and you can click the button to Go To Hospital AT ANY TIME during the countdown

The extra charge only applies to use of the Hospital. If you don't go to the Hospital, there's no IGC cost or countdown timer involved (because you aren't going to a Hospital, duh).

blacke4dawn wrote:

Cobalt, PH, you two have misunderstood it.
The count down is only for a zero cost rezz at the hospital, possibly personal/SG base. All other forms of rezz are not affected by this count down and can be done at will.

Correct.

Project_Hero wrote:

No, I understood it perfectly.

Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Oh, I got it.

/em skeptical look

Project_Hero wrote:

As I said having to trek back to the mission is punishment enough. As in having to go back is enough without the wait -or- an IGC payment.

If you HAVE TO go to the Hospital ... who's fault is that?
Granted, not everyone will have access to a rez power (self or otherwise) ... but shouldn't everyone have access to "Wakie" Inspirations? If you don't have any "Wakie" Inspirations on you/in your inventory, who's fault is that? If you got defeated in a location where you can't use a "Wakie" without getting defeated AGAIN almost instantly (so not a viable option) ... who's fault is that?

I'm of the opinion that it's not the Hospital's fault that you got yourself into the condition/state/location you're in under those circumstances ...

Project_Hero wrote:

And my other idea where instead of a wait or pay you just subtract a percentage of your IGC when you revive at the hospital i feel would be better.

/em polite cough

So I just create a mule character to hold all my IGC for me so as to avoid paying "taxes" when I "die" on my main character and have to go to the Hospital. Seriously, deducting a fraction of what you HAVE is something that is all too easy to game/avoid by making yourself "artificially poor" in the first place by playing a shell game with your assets among multiple characters. It's one of the oldest strategies around for avoiding death/debt penalties.

I'll grant you it's a SIMPLER idea, but I'll dispute it would be a BETTER one.


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Redlynne
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I like the concept of playing the player's motivations against each other. This kind of tradeoff is good in my mind as it creates internal struggle and adds drama to the player's experience.

Right. It makes the TIMING of WHEN to rez at the Hospital a CHOICE which has consequences and it's one of the Choose Your Pain variety. If you've got a billion IGC, ponying up 2500 IGC for an "instant" trip to the Hospital is something you probably won't even stop to think about, since that represents only 0.0000025% (or less!) of your total wealth. Yeah, not exactly hurting for cash in that case are you? So yeah, if your wallet is overflowing, of course you'll pay for the quick trip to the Hospital (most likely).

Huckleberry wrote:

The problem is the wait. I think that imposing a period of time where the player is logged into the game but is unable to enjoy playing the game is probably the worst form of death penalty there is.

Good thing then that's NOT what I'm proposing. The player is only UNABLE to enjoy continuing to play the game if they are "too destitute" to pay for faster Hospital service. If it costs 1600 IGC to Go To Hospital RIGHT THIS VERY SECOND NAO!!!! and your character has less than 1600 IGC to spend ... AND there's no one else around with a rez Power ... AND the Player didn't have the foresight to keep a "Wakie" Inspiration on hand (just in case) ... then yeah, you're going to have to wait for the cost to Go To Hospital to fall to a level that you CAN afford (and you'll be able to see it winding down as every second passes).

But that's the only circumstance in which what I'm proposing would lock the Player out of being able to play their character (for less than 1 minute in even the worst case scenario!).

Literally every other permutation of possibilities would not be a case of the Player being UNABLE to continue playing the game, but instead be a case of the Player being UNWILLING to continue playing the game "right now" ... although they may change their mind in just a few seconds. And that's the key thing. This isn't a One Size Fits All Solution. Instead, it's all on a sliding scale that actually scales to the character (and, presumably, the experience level of the Player with the game).

Huckleberry wrote:

Its even worse in multiplayer games where victims get to passively sit there and watch everyone else actively playing and enjoying the game.

There's a HUGE difference between being unABLE to continue playing ... and being unWILLING to continue playing because the Player is just THAT stingy with their in-game resources. The former is the game preventing you from playing. The latter is the Player preventing the Player from playing. Guess which of the two is the fault of the Player?

Huckleberry wrote:

Making it fungible for IGC is basically blackmailing players into paying money to play the game. Because if they don't pay, the can't play until the timer expires.

Yes.

So how many of your City of Heroes characters ran around with zero INF on them?
How many of your Level 50 City of Heroes characters ran around with zero INF on them at all times?

If you CAN pay ... but DON'T ... who is at fault for that decision? I'm looking at you, stingy Player.

Huckleberry wrote:

One suggestion I have seen other games use is IGC or cash shop items to allow a resurrect in situ versus at the hospital.

Please no. I prefer the "Wakies" from spending Reserves before you get defeated to be the solution to avoid needing to use the Hospital in the first place.

Huckleberry wrote:

Assuming we're going with your idea of making a player pay money and hospitals are part of the deal, you could pay money instead for an instant-teleport back to the site of your most recent defeat. I think this is a much better scenario than using a wait timer, and it accomplishes nearly the same tradeoff: to wit, time versus money. The difference being that the time we are saving is the time running across the map.

One IGC sink at a time, please.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Assuming we're going with your idea of making a player pay money and hospitals are part of the deal, you could pay money instead for an instant-teleport back to the site of your most recent defeat. I think this is a much better scenario than using a wait timer, and it accomplishes nearly the same tradeoff: to wit, time versus money. The difference being that the time we are saving is the time running across the map.

One IGC sink at a time, please.

Sorry, in your attempt to be concise, you lost clarity. Could you please explain this comment?

Or did you miss the use of the word "instead," because I used the word "instead" to mean an alternative to your idea, not an option in addition to your idea. Because I don't like your idea.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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How about instead of a timer

How about instead of a timer you could spend IGC to Rez Here (where you fell), Rez at Entrance (if in a mission), or Rez at Hospital for free? That equates to about the same thing: spending IGC to save time. Could even put a count down timer on the "Rez Here" option so that IGC doesn't just become substituted for self res powers or awakens or the like. Maybe after using that option (unusable while your team is in combat) you have to wait a set amount of time before you can do it again (1 hour, 30 mins, or something)

I have a problem with the idea of the game making you wait unless you fork over some IGC, like if you're super close to a hospital anyway but you have to wait the like minute or pay the reaper or whatever to respawn somewhere that'll take you ten seconds to return to is kinda BS. I'd feel kinda cheated out of that cash.

I guess for me the difference is if I have to wait unless I pay, that's time I'm not playing the game. Granted it's a players choice to do that, but I'd just use the time to check my phone, make a cup of tea, or whatever I can do for the time it takes, to which some people will tab out of the game and do something else, then maybe lose track of time and then they're not playing CoT. To me having to pay to have the inconvenience of spending time to return to the game smacks way too much of crappy mobile games. Need to wait for your whatever to recharge (insert amount of time) or you could recharge instantly with gems, or jewels, or whatever bs currency the game uses. I don't think we need stuff that reminds us of free to pay mobile games in CoT.

Edit: on the idea of the Rez Here option. If it revived the character in an incredibly weakened state that would prevent some abuse of the option. If you spawn with 1 health and zero power (energy? Endurance?) And unable to heal up for 5-10 secs there wouldn't be much other than a time saving technique it could be used for.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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I realy don’t think we are

I realy don’t think we are going to place a timer to rez at hospital or pay igc for rez. Our game play lead is quite adamant that the travel from the hospital to your location of activity is a penalty in of itself.

When we discussed it, paying a fee to return back to your location point (or entrance if instanced) was feasible and agreeable.


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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

How about instead of a timer you could spend IGC to Rez Here (where you fell)

You mean like these?
You'll be able to make those by spending your Reserves on their creation before you get Defeated. Note, spending Reserves does not cost IGC.

Any questions?

Project_Hero wrote:

I guess for me the difference is if I have to wait unless I pay, that's time I'm not playing the game. Granted it's a players choice to do that, but I'd just use the time to check my phone, make a cup of tea, or whatever I can do for the time it takes, to which some people will tab out of the game and do something else, then maybe lose track of time and then they're not playing CoT.

So ... it's the Player's fault that they don't want to keep playing. Glad we cleared that up then.

Look, either the Player is going to be held to account for their own decisions ... good or bad ... or they aren't. If you COULD be playing, but you decide that you WON'T ... whose fault is that again?

Project_Hero wrote:

To me having to pay to have the inconvenience of spending time to return to the game smacks way too much of crappy mobile games.

What do you do when Instant Gratification™ isn't fast enough?

Project_Hero wrote:

Need to wait for your whatever to recharge (insert amount of time) or you could recharge instantly with gems, or jewels, or whatever bs currency the game uses. I don't think we need stuff that reminds us of free to pay mobile games in CoT.

Then riddle me this Batman Project Hero ... what do we even need IGC for?

If the in-game currency isn't intended to be used for services inside the game, then what good is it? I'm not asking this as a rhetorical question. Pretty much literally every single suggestion that has been made in the past 3+ years for "here's something you can spend IGC on" has been met with a reflexive wall of opposition to having to (let alone needing to) spend IGC ON ANYTHING AT ALL.

Explain to me what the point of having a currency that drops from every mob defeated in the game is when there isn't anything to spend that currency for in game ... including convenience services?

The flipside to this question is ... how often are you planning on being defeated? If you have to pay IGC to go to the Hospital FAST ... how often do you think you're going to need to do that?

Once a gaming session?
Twice?
Nine times during a single mission?

And if you're going to the Hospital THAT MUCH ... is there anyone who is, I dunno, RESPONSIBLE for you needing to make all of those trips to the Hospital? After all, there will be more than one way to "get back up" after being defeated. Going to the Hospital should be by design the option of Last Resort™, rather than the option of the Least Inconvenience. And the only way you're going to get that kind of negative reinforcement is if you impose some (additional) cost to going to the Hospital as opposed to simply rezzing in place where you fell.

Project_Hero wrote:

on the idea of the Rez Here option. If it revived the character in an incredibly weakened state that would prevent some abuse of the option. If you spawn with 1 health and zero power (energy? Endurance?) And unable to heal up for 5-10 secs there wouldn't be much other than a time saving technique it could be used for.

You mean like these?
You'll be able to make those by spending your Reserves on their creation before you get Defeated. Note, spending Reserves does not cost IGC.

Any questions?


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I realy don’t think we are going to place a timer to rez at hospital or pay igc for rez. Our game play lead is quite adamant that the travel from the hospital to your location of activity is a penalty in of itself.
When we discussed it, paying a fee to return back to your location point (or entrance if instanced) was feasible and agreeable.

Well that's a relief. And a great idea, if I do say so myself.

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Tannim,

Tannim,
I do have a question for you regarding reserves. Redlynne thinks that we need to convert our reserves into inspirations prior to defeat. I assumed that if we had enough reserves at defeat, we could convert them into a rez at that time. Since it doesn't look like you and MWM have actually made an explicit statement about this, could you clear it up?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Tannim,
I do have a question for you regarding reserves. Redlynne thinks that we need to convert our reserves into inspirations prior to defeat. I assumed that if we had enough reserves at defeat, we could convert them into a rez at that time. Since it doesn't look like you and MWM have actually made an explicit statement about this, could you clear it up?

We have several options we want to explore. I can’t get into mnay destails as this may encroach on a possible update.

I can say that one option is that you must have a specific reserve available to for its use (so a Rez reserve). Another is that you can use any Health Reerves to restore defeat status. The other is to allow any Reserve to be used from defeat to Rez.

On the surface this may sound lik there are clearly better option for ease of use for the player. However there are deeper implications to account for in which direction we take. We have the basic system down. Once get to expanding upon it is where we’ll hammer home a final direction.


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Redlynne the difference

Redlynne the difference between the awaken inspirations and my idea would of course be cost. If such a thing was implemented in the CoX game then the ability to pay to Rez now would be SIGNIFICANTLY more than buying (or finding) one. Sheesh it's not rocket science here. Also no idea how inspiration-like things will work in Titans, so who knows their version could have you pop up at half Heath or even fully healed, but if the option to pop up incredibly weakened for a significant IGC cost was already in place likely such abilities to self res would be stronger to compensate.

How often do you die? Depends on circumstance, character, and a whole bunch of other factors. Some of which (which may come as a shock to you) are out of the player's control. Someone agros a group of enemies towards you then dies to them making them then attack you. Has happened to me before in games, guess that's my fault for not being Batman enough and preparing for every eventually. Random crits have killed my pokemon more times than I can count, who's fault is that? RNG.

What should IGC be used for? The Lions share of mine in CoX was dumped into icon. That and enhancements I guess. In game services, yes. But not pay or wait BS. What you seem to fail to grasp with your idea (which, in my mind you seem far too defensive about) you are paying to speed up the process before you respawn at the hospital. So with your idea it's take time to then take time to get somewhere. That severely impacts the flow of gameplay. Waiting around looking at your corpse isn't fun. I can't think of any game with respawn timers where that is. Having to then pay to speed it up is beyond insulting. When without it you wouldn't need to wait or pay at all. It just seems like an idea that boggs down the gameplay experience for no real benefit.

Not that this discussion matters much any more seeing as a Dev has spoken on how it's (most likely) going to function. Die, go hosp, can pay from there to get back fast. Sounds like a good way to drain some of that IGC off characters to me. You can either take your time, take in the scenery, and go back under your own power (something I'd probably do more often than not) or pay to blip back which is nice when you're teaming.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
Tannim,
I do have a question for you regarding reserves. Redlynne thinks that we need to convert our reserves into inspirations prior to defeat. I assumed that if we had enough reserves at defeat, we could convert them into a rez at that time. Since it doesn't look like you and MWM have actually made an explicit statement about this, could you clear it up?
We have several options we want to explore. I can’t get into mnay destails as this may encroach on a possible update.
I can say that one option is that you must have a specific reserve available to for its use (so a Rez reserve). Another is that you can use any Health Reerves to restore defeat status. The other is to allow any Reserve to be used from defeat to Rez.
On the surface this may sound lik there are clearly better option for ease of use for the player. However there are deeper implications to account for in which direction we take. We have the basic system down. Once get to expanding upon it is where we’ll hammer home a final direction.

Thank you. That's interesting. All this time I was under the impression that reserves were an uncolored potential waiting for us to give them a color when we consume them. From your response, however, I definitely get the impression that reserves become colored the moment they become reserves. So it would be relatively random just like inspirations were in CoX. Thank you for clearing that up.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Redlynne thinks that we need to convert our reserves into inspirations prior to defeat. I assumed that if we had enough reserves at defeat, we could convert them into a rez at that time. Since it doesn't look like you and MWM have actually made an explicit statement about this, could you clear it up?

My assumption was based on the notion that you can only "spend" Reserves to create Inspirations while you're not Defeated. So if you're not Defeated, you can make as many Inspirations as you've got Reserves for. You're literally "banking" your Reserves (which can be used in a number of different ways) as a "hedge" against specific circumstances later. This means that you need to (in effect) PLAN AHEAD (or at least plan ahead) for a variety of different outcomes. If the Player can't be bothered to do this, then that's on the Player for not making the effort to use their Reserves while they could.

The flipside to that assumption is that while you are Defeated (and faceplanted) you can't spend your Reserves. If you made Inspirations ahead of time, you can spend those while Defeated, but you can't make new Inspirations while you're Defeated.

My assumption is therefore ...
Reserves: Can be spent at any time when NOT Defeated.
Inspirations: Created by spending Reserves. Can be used at any time, including when Defeated.

Note that such an assumption doesn't even touch on the question of whether or not your Reserves get zeroed out by being Defeated. I'm simply assuming that while you are Defeated you don't have "access" to your Reserves.

This is another one of those Player Choices Need To Have Consequences kinds of things, where you want to engage the Player's brainpower to get them into the habit of anticipating/planning possible futures rather than merely reacting to stuff that's already happened. In other words, it's best to reward preparation and planning rather than creating a "game" where you can mulligan everything that happens after the fact if you don't like how things turned out.


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I haven't heard any devs

I haven't heard any devs respond to the question of whether or not you still get loot while defeated on a team. I still think that anyone NOT on the instance map should definitely not get any, and I would extend that to people who are "defeafed" but maybe not those who are "down but not out", if that's going to exist.

As for the issue of "I got defeated right before the big prize drop at the end" I would say that stuff like the end-of-task-force bonuses in CoX took SO long to get and were such a big reason why people stayed in there and did the long TFs that you have to give the people their lootz for having vested their end rewards, whatever that entails. I would drop that type of stuff on you wherever you are at that point, even if you're logged off when the TF finishes. It's just the oodles of mobs getting defeated type loot I'd shut off while off map or defeated. That said, content that took 4 hours to complete became obsolete by the last year of CoX. By then all the good TFs and such were like 30-90 min, tops. But then some Trials had bosses that could explode and kill half the team at the end too.

That said, I think people should pay a price for suiciding their toons, even if it's a good way to get a tough monster defeated. I mean, if there were a hard rule that said "When the big guy goes down, no loot for dead people." then you'd want to strategize fights to keep people alive and still defeat the boss instead of just throwing more dead bodies at the problem. Also, anyone who DOES agree to take one for the team is really martyring themselves at that point and would probably deserve some kind of reimbursement. Considering the kind of unrest that would likely cause among greedy PUG teams, I can see the problem with it.

So yeah, the big end of TF, end boss defeat type stuff should probably go to everyone on the team. At the very least everyone still currently on the team who hasn't gotten kicked by a vote of the majority of the team.

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Player choice does have

Player choice does have consequence, Red. You CHOSE to use your reserves while up, no reserve Rez. You CHOSE to save some incase you die, you can. That's 100% choice and consequence. Preparation and planning. "Wow, this mission has been tough, I'd better keep some reserves incase I go down."

So I'm all for spending reserves at/after defeat. You probably don't gain any after defeat... Though in CoX you could gain inspirations while defeated that was always a triumphant moment for me. Down, awaiting a Rez, then pop! I can do it myself! Pick self back up, pop a few blues, and you're back in the fight!

Actually yeah it'd be great to gain reserves while defeated if your team's still fighting. Verrr Superhero, verrr Shonen anime. Imagine the whole team goes down but one lone hero, then they keep fighting inspired by that heroes bravery the other heroes draw up what reserves they have and pick themselves up. If that hero can still fight, so can I! Awesome.

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Radiac, there's multiple

Radiac, there's multiple points of interest for what you're talking about, and a substantial portions of picking the best choices for each of those points have dependencies on other things.

For example:
In City of Heroes, when you leveled up you automatically got the buff effects of every type of Inspiration at max (Level 3) value, without spending any Inspirations from inventory in order to do so. This had the curious phenomenon of sometimes being a peculiar form of "backdoor rez" if your character was very close to leveling up, got defeated and took on Debt because of the defeat ... but XP/Prestige/INF/Loot Drops continued to accrue to your character while they remained faceplanted via the dynamic of your team continuing to fight around you. Basically everyone else would earn the remaining XP your character needed and then when you "dinged" to next level your defeated PC would ARISE as the complete set of Inspiration effects upon leveling took effect ... including the Level 3 "Wakie" Inspiration ... making your character Get Back Up in what can only be described as the most impressive Blaze Of Glory with an even better light show accompaniment.

What you're describing precludes that possible (exceedingly rare) edge case from ever happening.

So I think you need to lay down some markers for what you think should or should not be available/obtainable/usable while your PC is in a Defeated State. Here, I'll go first.

While Defeated:

XP gain: continues (as per standard rules for gaining XP)
IGC gain: stops
Reserves: unavailable for use
Inspirations previously made from Reserves: usable (although only "Wakie" Inspirations are relevant in this context, but you can still "use" any of the others)
Hospital service: usable
Movement: no
Powers: self-rez only, all others no
Trade Window: yes, can trade while defeated (so can donate and receive)

The one assumption I'm making here (which Tannim222's reply has muddied) is that Reserves will basically be a "resource bar" (like Health or Endurance) that gets filled, and that "Inspirations" are essentially Inventory Items that you "pay" Reserves to "buy" in order to Save For Later. This then gives you a limited inventory (and thus a limited number of Inspirations on hand) and what you fill that inventory up with is up to the Player to decide, rather than Inspirations being random drops received from defeating mobs.

I may have missed/overlooked something else that ought to be affected by being in a state of defeat, but those are the major ones that come to mind.


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I think reserves should still

I think reserves should still go up (probably really slowly) if you're defeated and on a team. What's the point of having reserves if you can't use them when you need than most?

Edit: Though I 100% agree with you Red about rewards while down/defeated

Edit 2: Ooh! How about being able to convert previously made inspiration like things back into reserves so you could pull yourself up?

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Reserves are not converted to

Reserves are not converted to “inspirations”. You spend the type of Reserve you have set up.

Reserves don’t fill while you are defeated. They only fill when you have Momentum naturally deplete. When you are defeated, any Momentum you have is depleted into Reserves.


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Neato

Neato

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So, when you are defeated,

So, when you are defeated, all of your Momentum becomes Reserves, which you can then spend, if you selected a type of Reserve that is useable while defeated, if there are any.

If you don't (or can't) spend your Reserves while defeated, then are they still available when you get up?

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Reserves are not converted to “inspirations”. You spend the type of Reserve you have set up.

???

Yeah, this is going to require an update for how things are supposed to work (like you said). I say that because this is starting to sound like "fill a rainbow of bars" and then spending from those bars to receive the effects of Inspirations, contingent upon "how full" the respective bars are (more full, greater effect) ... but that starts getting pretty messy in a hurry. How do you decide "which bar" is getting filled? Do all of them fill up "equally" or does the Player have the option to "prioritize" which bar gets filled faster than others (and how do you control that decision via the UI)?

How is this in any way superior to having a single Reserves bar, which fills up when Momentum drains away ... and then expecting the Player to "spend" those Type Undefined (yet) Reserves to create an item (an Inspiration) that gets held in a specialized inventory for immediate (or later) use ...?

Also, if there is no ITEM getting put into an inventory, then the notion that you can "trade a Wakie" to teammate after they fall in battle (from your inventory to their inventory) is no longer operative in the way that we're expecting it to be. Likewise, you can't have downed ally passing your (not yet defeated) PC other Inspiration items (heals, recovery, damage, defense, resistance, accuracy ... anything) to assist a teammate while within trade range of the downed ally. It would mean that you can't "trade a Wakie" to someone who falls in the street as you're passing by.

Tannim222 wrote:

Reserves don’t fill while you are defeated. They only fill when you have Momentum naturally deplete. When you are defeated, any Momentum you have is depleted into Reserves.

Curious, I was thinking that when you are defeated any Momentum would simply be LOST and not converted into Reserves at all, and that while you're defeated your PC will obviously not be generating additional Reserves (so basically turn off the spigot). The point being that whatever Reserves you have (stockpiled?) when you get defeated ... that's it ... there won't be more coming after you faceplant.

Now, depending on how you want to rig things (game mechanically speaking) so long as the "source" for adding additional Reserves is cut off, I can imagine moving the goalpost such that you can "spend" what Reserves you have to create an item that can be used as a Wakie (Inspiration) to get back up where you fell. So you could (theoretically) "craft" a self-rez that you can then use while defeated, provided that your PC had enough Reserves to do so BEFORE being defeated (because no additional Reserves will be forthcoming after being defeated) ,,, I can see that as being a possible way to rig things.

But when your PC is defeated, certain things ought to stop working the same as when your PC has Health greater than zero.


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Maybe you have a set of

Maybe you have a set of buttons like where CoX inspirations go that you can click them it spends reserves? No, wait... That doesn't work with what was said... Hm.

Maybe you have the set of buttons, and click them then reserves fill them up?

Hm.

Yeah, probably going to have to wait on an update for more clarity.

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Yeah, all those issues Red

Yeah, all those issues Red has, we already addressed those in the base system. I could elaborate, but it is better served as an update. Suffice to say, Red’s “you can’t” suppositions are incorrect.


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Some games give players the

Some games give players the ability to help other "downed" players get back up after a defeat. In GW2 this doesn't any special power or skill, you just click on them and you go into an interruptible "I'm helping you" mode until they get up or you break away to go fight, or you get interrupted. If that's a thing in CoT, then you'd want the option to use reserves for other things while teamed and maybe set for "at least give me enough to get back up solo" when soloing.

Of course you can TP yourself to a safe location solo either, so maybe you're just better off going to the hospital anyway.

It would be nice if you could set your reserves to automatically switch to "accumulate wakie reserves upon defeat before momentum predictably flatlines" if that could be a thing.

Also, if we have to set how our reserves fill upon momentum bleed off, I would want the option to fill just one category, or two, or a combination of them, or all of them and I would want the ability to set what percentage of lost momentum goes into each. I'm not saying this is something that should be the default that you get for free though. I could see some form of "smarter reserve management system" being a thing you could unlock somehow, but I would want it in the game at some point, if not right at the start.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Reserves don’t fill while you are defeated. They only fill when you have Momentum naturally deplete. When you are defeated, any Momentum you have is depleted into Reserves.

Curious, I was thinking that when you are defeated any Momentum would simply be LOST and not converted into Reserves at all, and that while you're defeated your PC will obviously not be generating additional Reserves (so basically turn off the spigot). The point being that whatever Reserves you have (stockpiled?) when you get defeated ... that's it ... there won't be more coming after you faceplant.

That surprised me as well. I would think that when you get defeated your momentum was just lost and whatever reserves you had at the time are the reserves you have. To think that our momentum depletes as usual, even after defeat, gives me a new perspective.


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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Also, if we have to set how our reserves fill upon momentum bleed off, I would want the option to fill just one category, or two, or a combination of them, or all of them and I would want the ability to set what percentage of lost momentum goes into each.

Easiest way I can think of to make such a system work would be to use a sort of Player determined "preset weighting" for where Momentum bleeds off into.

Using the City of Heroes Inspirations system as an ... inspiration ... you've basically got 8 types of Inspirations:
Accuracy
Damage
Defense
Endurance
Healing
Resist Damage
Resist Status Effects
Wakie

Set things up on a sort of point scale in which for every X amount of Momentum that gets bled off into Reserves, you get Y points to distribute among all 8 of those types. So lets say you get 40 points to distribute among all 8 effects. A perfectly even balance would look like this:
5 Accuracy
5 Damage
5 Defense
5 Endurance
5 Healing
5 Resist Damage
5 Resist Status Effects
5 Wakie
= 40 total

But each of those parameters would have sliders going from 0-9 on them, allowing you to prioritize which types "fill faster" than others. So if you wanted to get Damage, Endurance, Healing and Resist Status Effects mainly, with the leftover going towards Wakie, you'd just rearrange the sliders for the presets like so:
0 Accuracy
9 Damage
0 Defense
9 Endurance
9 Healing
0 Resist Damage
9 Resist Status Effects
4 Wakie
= 40 total

Set the whole thing up as its own UI window that is accessible at any time (and thus can be changed at any time) and you'd have a relatively automated system handling "how" Momentum gets converted (drained) into Reserves in terms of the proportionality of which Reserves "types" fill up faster, by letting the Player declare their priorities.

Of course, having such a setup would in and of itself suggest some rather interesting possibilities ... including setting all of the Reserves draining parameters to be deliberately low so as to retard the rate at which Momentum gets converted into Reserves (useful for builds that need and use Momentum extensively) so as to "bias" the character towards keeping their Momentum for longer spans of time, as well as the opposite of setting the Reserves draining parameters to all be deliberately high so as to accelerate the rate at which Momentum gets converted into Reserves (useful for builds that don't make much use of Momentum to begin with).

Another possibility that suggests itself would be that the total amount of all 8 settings combined could be no higher than (wait for the drum roll) ... your PC's Level. Got a Level 1 PC? You've got 1 point to spend for where your Momentum "goes" when it drains into your Reserves. Got a Level 30 PC? You've got 30 points to spend for where your Momentum "goes" when it drains into your Reserves ... but you don't HAVE TO make everything add up to 30 (at Level 30) if you don't want it to. You could be a Level 30 character with all 8 settings assigned to be 0-1 for a total point allocation of less than 8, even though you've got 30 points available to spend, meaning that your Reserves build slowly, but your Momentum also drains **slowly** into your Reserves, so as to bias your build towards retention of Momentum rather than towards (quickly) building Reserves.

Hmmm ... now that I think about it, having such a simple system in place for Player assigned "presets" (adjustable at any time, but you have to bring up the window to do it, so it wouldn't be a "free" action in the middle of combat, necessarily) could make for some VERY INTERESTING gameplay customization, even between characters with what amounts to the "exact same build strategy" (Powers picks, Augments, Refinements) as far as the way that the character(s) play.

Hmmm ... the number values assigned to each Reserves preset could represent "how fast" Momentum gets drained into that specific type of Reserves, in effect. Sort of a "convert X Momentum into Y Reserves every 60 seconds" kind of deal. So if the setting is 1, then you get 1 point of Reserves for that type every 60 seconds. If you set it for 6 then you get 1 point of Reserves for that type every 10 seconds. All the setting would be doing is determining "how fast" the transfers from Momentum to Reserves take place. The "size" of the transfer would be identical in all cases. So a setting of 1 generates 1 point of Reserves in a single conversion tick every 60 seconds, but a setting of 6 generates 6 points of Reserves in 6 conversion ticks happening every 10 seconds. So the higher the settings, the faster Momentum drains into Reserves, but the "drain ticks" are of a constant size every single time.

Okay, now THAT is starting to sound REALLY COOL ...


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Redlynne wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Reserves don’t fill while you are defeated. They only fill when you have Momentum naturally deplete. When you are defeated, any Momentum you have is depleted into Reserves.
Curious, I was thinking that when you are defeated any Momentum would simply be LOST and not converted into Reserves at all, and that while you're defeated your PC will obviously not be generating additional Reserves (so basically turn off the spigot). The point being that whatever Reserves you have (stockpiled?) when you get defeated ... that's it ... there won't be more coming after you faceplant.
That surprised me as well. I would think that when you get defeated your momentum was just lost and whatever reserves you had at the time are the reserves you have. To think that our momentum depletes as usual, even after defeat, gives me a new perspective.

It doesn’t deplete as usual, it automatically converts. Now it can be that we don’t go that route and have Momentum lost upon defeat based on testing. The thought here is that being defeated and shunting Momentum to Reserves gives the opportunity to Rez.

As to Red’s suggestions on setting bleed rates of Momentum - no you can’t do that.

Momentum will always deplete at a set rate. You can’t purposefully slow the depletion rate.

Reaerves also fill at a set rate. No fudging with numbers / sliders, adding extea UI elements and so forth. Ease of use here.


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Huckleberry
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

It doesn’t deplete as usual, it automatically converts. Now it can be that we don’t go that route and have Momentum lost upon defeat based on testing. The thought here is that being defeated and shunting Momentum to Reserves gives the opportunity to Rez.

I like the concept. And I like that you are still open to see how things play out in testing. The instant conversion of momentum into reserves upon defeat might make intentional sacrifices or careless risktaking a bit too attractive, but we'll see.

I was actually working on a quick powerpoint picture for my "Momentum Reserves Allocation UI" It's moot now, but I'm posting it anyway, just so the effort doesn't go to waste:

With the idea being that the different colors of reserves get filled up at various rates. It looks like the same thing Redlynne was trying to put forth in text.

I'm not sure if I like it, but it's an idea nonetheless.

What I think I prefer is that Reserves are a colorless potential that we can use up in discrete amounts however we want, when we want. That's what I would prefer having played CoT where I gon a zillion attack boosts when all I wanted was an endurance boost, or vice versa.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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What if the system is really

What if the system is really simple?

Momentum can be used for powerset effects.

Residual Momentum feeds into Reserves.

Reserves accumulate and can be 'spent' for an effect that is chosen at the time of use.

There, no sliders, no numbers, no worries - except if you've not accumulated enough Reserves to power the effect you want.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Tannim222
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

What if the system is really simple?
Momentum can be used for powerset effects.
Residual Momentum feeds into Reserves.
Reserves accumulate and can be 'spent' for an effect that is chosen at the time of use.
There, no sliders, no numbers, no worries - except if you've not accumulated enough Reserves to power the effect you want.
Be Well!
Fireheart

There’s more to it beyond that, but you’ve outlined the basics of it.


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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Some games give players the ability to help other "downed" players get back up after a defeat. In GW2 this doesn't any special power or skill, you just click on them and you go into an interruptible "I'm helping you" mode until they get up or you break away to go fight, or you get interrupted. If that's a thing in CoT, then you'd want the option to use reserves for other things while teamed and maybe set for "at least give me enough to get back up solo" when soloing.

I'm certain they have said that everyone will get a slow and very basic version of resurrection.