has this been covered ?
i'm just wondering if it has nor not anyway this topic tends to go two ways either some like it or some hate it.
since tanks,healers,dps, support all tend to be a must at some point in games how will this be handled where players can party up together and work it out properly ?.
i've played all these roles in different games and some it works out well and some it doesn't and usually the ones that it doesn't is because of a shortage of one of these but DPS is never on the shortage since that tends to be the easiest way to play games.
The plan is for (ideally) every team to be viable.
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Just like City of Heroes, City of titans is shooting for a game that doesn't need the Trinity set up. With so many different types of classes in the plan (Only a handful will be at launch due to difficulty in programing all for release). Each class should be able to function with any combo of the other classes. The types of powers and how they could be modified by the player reduces the need for a trinity set up. A Healer type could have so many debuffs and buffs in the powers that they could do some good Damage and not take a lot of damage for example.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
oh no. i feared the day when this topic would come here.
no trinity. always have a way around it work, or work even better than it.
the people who love the trinity also seem to hate any high-end npc/mob A.I.. if that mob kills the "healer" first, they will freak out.
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
your way late MasterGhostartist. This topic been talked about long before now. long story short no Trinity unless you want it. There be power sets for the "Tank" builds that fit, there be Healer builds, and of course DPS. Over a year ago the Dev teams got together and talked about every aspect of MMO gaming and even single player games. Subjects like Gold farming, Power Leveling, The Trinity, Grifting, badge hunting, and many more. Not just should we have them, but why people use such tactics.
The Trinity works. Plan and simple it became a standard battle tactic and when players demanded content for such tactic the games they work on shifted farther into that becoming the only tactic. Sure you could form a trinity style team and run thing. City of Titans primary goal is to give as many options to players as logically could. I said Logically because too many options leads to confusion and frustration. From solo players, to Pugs, to Supergroup teams. A player would be able to play almost all the content on their own (Might have team based tasks forces), or join a team at any time with any combo of other classes. The system being designed to adapt. So the Trinity will not be the only tactic that will work.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I've been playing some games DCUO being most recent with the trinity but i'm mostly a small group player on that game i've been a tank,healer,controller its all fairly balanced but that doesn't mean i really want this for titans.
i've also been playing warframe and the powers on that game are pretty good although not a superhero game still for the jobs at hand do work.
Even CoX had a lot of stuff that was easily dealt with by the "tank and spank" tactic, which though not strictly trinity, is done in much the same spirit.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
as long as it all works out right i'm cool with it.
on CoH i always played rather squishy characters because i liked being high DPS but usually got me killed lol
hopefully every powerset will have maybe a heal button and maybe some sort of heal over time because i myself do tend to solo a lot and die a lot without good heals.
Not sure that a great idea... but i hear Boosts will exist, kinda like Inspirations in CoH, so that might help.
yeah i suppose it may or may not be a good idea.
thank the dark gods.
What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau
In CoH a team of Tanks could do Task Forces.
A team of Defenders could do Task Forces
A team of Scrappers could do Task Forces
Etc
Etc
There will be no NEED for the Trinity style of teams. Also while I have not seen any Dev state the max team size for normal content I am assuming that it will be 8 or around 8, rather than the usual 4 for most Trinity based games.
Also there is no guarantee there will be a "Healer" set. CoH didn't really have one, even Empathy wasn't only Healing.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I see your points about not needing the trinity of any sort however i still like having some sort of heal button in case things get kinda ugly when i'm playing.
so its a precaution since i tend to solo a lot and die now and then so a heal button for anyone is a good idea and it could have a timer so not to just spam it.
the inspiration system CoH had was good i totally forgot about that lol.
the soda can heals in DCUO were pretty good varying on healing based on level and amount per use and had a timer.
Don't forget Inspirations (COH term). While this topic has not been discussed at length with a Dev confirming how CoT will handle them (at least as far as I know there hasn't been any confirmation) its probably safe to assume that CoT's Insp/Potion/TempBuff/etc option will be somewhat similar to CoH's.
Even if they instead go down the road that most other MMO's do with Potions (1 healing potion every 60-120secs) then there is your "Self Heal" power, only in potion form. I REALLY hope they don't go down this path - the CoH system was much more open and allowed ME to play as I want. If I want to burn all my Insps for a single fight and have none left over for the next fight that's my choice.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I think it was mentioned somewhere here instead of inspirations they are calling it boosts or something
Yeah the new Inspirations are called Boosts. A power boost!
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
As was the case in CoH, I expect this will primarily be a function of choosing the appropriate classification/specification.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Or tertiary abilities.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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No Trinity ever needed ... or it is [i]not[/i] the spiritual successor to CoX, the goal of CoT, simple as that.
We need to start calling it the "Unholy Trinity." "Infernal Trinity?" The "Evil-which-may-not-be-spoken-of-but-is-more-than-two-and-less-than-four?" Often accompanied by the "Horror-which-may-not-be-named-but-limits-team-size-to-more-than-four-but-less-than-six."
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
TRINITY OF NIGHTMARES!
;) There's a reason there's only 3 in the Nightmare Guard...
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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As a point of interest, part of the reason CoH played so differently from many other games, in certain respects, is that it pretty much never *had* the holy trinity. They were there, but they were not the sole dominant mechanic.
The reason why is very simple: Controllers
It introduced a significant additional set of resources that needed to be managed in real time in order to succeed, but it also opened up a far wider variety of approaches to out-resourcing your opponents. Although I'll bet that most folks had no understanding that an MMO is, mechanically, not especially different from an RTS — admittedly, that is in the same sense that a doughnut is the same as a human.
As for what we're going to have, I'm not the person to speak about it. But I can say that the folks designing the system and the math are quite aware of just how CoX differed from trinity MMOs, including some ways that most folks probably never really caught as being significant (or at least not as significant as they were).
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[color=#ff0000]Developer Emeritus[/color]
and multipurpose sheep
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Oh, and regarding team sizes: the social dynamics of teaming in CoH were a *very* significant factor in the overall social structure, or at least certain parts of it. I can't tell you what the team size limit will be, but I can say that it won't be blindly defaulted to a low number.
Interestingly, the team size actually turned out to have a lot to do with why you could run TFs with "a team of X" for so many values of X and have reasonable confidence that it would succeed. True, some values of X could do it reliably with a lot less than 8, but the number 5 is related to the number 3 (as in, dps/tank/heal trinity) and 8 was related the fact that CoH's number was *not* 3. Among other things.
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[color=#ff0000]Developer Emeritus[/color]
and multipurpose sheep
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The thing with the larger groups is that it allows you stack the deck differently as well, so that is why "ALL X" teams worked... because you could over compensate enough to be able to just power through the problems when they would crop up.
Although with a smaller team, you might find that you would have to play more tactically than you might well prefer to play. That is not necessarily a *bad* thing though, making the group think about how to complete X problem.
Hell, I have done Veteran Adventures in Wildstar in a "non trinity" group. These are the "hard mode" version of the normal adventures, and without a "healer" as it were... it definitely made it interesting. Sure, we had a couple of players who had a *single* heal on their bar... but that was it. Hell, if need be and the tanker dropped... I am sure that we could have done it differently as well.
What I am trying to say, is that with the exception of the Veteran Dungeons and Raids system, you don't really need to have "Tank/Healer/DPS" setup... infact, if you do a total guild run, and enter via the dungeon entrance... you could go in with all healers... or All DPS if you really wanted (thinking of that... a 5 man Engineer Team would be extremely interesting to see). If you use the LFG interface though, you do end up being put into the "Healer/Tank/3 DPS" setup.
And that actually brings up another problem... how could an LFG interface (ie auto teaming) work to see who would be suitable for what group... or would it just throw X people together without actually paying attention to what they were?
An entirely reasonable question. The answer, unfortunately, general boils down to one of:
[list=1]
[*]Be stupid about it and jumble
[*]Be stupid about it and insist on a fixed mix
[*]Be stupid about it and force one player to "form" the queue team and specify what they want
[*]Be semi-smart about it and apply "think through it" based heuristics (semi-smart because *at best* it is limited by "what can we think of?")
[*]Be stat-geeks and try to analyze the results of an existing system to tune it (requires there to be an existing system…)
[*]Be insanely ambitious and attempt to build a limited AI / expert system to do it
[/list]
Unfortunately, I cannot offer any meaningful commentary beyond that set of statements, at this point.
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[color=#ff0000]Developer Emeritus[/color]
and multipurpose sheep
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You know, I think I like "All of the above" as a potential answer. The trick would be in having an interface that exposes the team-building process, so that members of the team, or the team 'leader', can modify it on the fly.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Like Fireheart I too think all those options (to an extent) have a place.
If Im LFG for a normal PuG, non TF then I probably don't care if I join a team of the same Class/Spec so let the randomness commence.
If Im forming a TF and want certain roles/class/specs then allow me to flag 1x Tank, 1x DPS, 1x Support, 1x Control as a minimum. Assuming we have teams of 8 and I am a Stalwart that means there are 4 random spots for I don't care, and the other 3 are reserved. If the first 4 people to join are Support then the remaining 3 spots are limited to a DPS and Control and Random.
Im sure the game can say for this TF we recommend the following, but it may not even be needed. CoH didn't need this. Most people knew that you needed an Agro Magnet (usually Tank/Brute/Scrapper), and damage (Brute/Scrapper/Stalker/Blaster/Corruptor/MM) at the least - even then NEEDED is a strong word and you didn't NEED anything but it was recommended. You didn't NEED Support or Control but it did make it easier. You don't NEED an Agro Magnet but it did make it easier.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
Like a team of 8 illusion controllers with 8 phantasm and phantom army that was just complete madness
It would be useful if, in the LFG/Team-building system, I could flag myself as looking for a Small group. Or a large one. One thing I detest is being invited to a group and then sitting on my ass, while the leader tries to cajole enough others to fill the team to whatever spec they have in mind. I'm usually perfectly content with a Duo or Trio of any sort. Of course, I'm usually a Tanker or Controller, so all I 'need' in a teammate is a bit of DPS or Support.
On the other hand, if I want/need to join a TF, then I'd want to flag myself to only accept/join large TF-type groups.
A problem I've seen with many team-building systems, in other games, is that there's no way to say, "I want to join this group and not that one". Mostly because we can't See those groups forming. We can't see how an existing duo would naturally fit with another duo floating around the city, to create a potent pick-up team. We can't say, "I want to do this sort of task and not that one," or "I want to play with people from this list and I won't play with people from that one".
I do think some form of (semi)automated team assembling system would be great, but I'd like more choices and Controls than the other games I've seen allow.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Its worth noting that with the LFG system, the only waiting around you would be having would be waiting for it to find suitable people. It might not necessarily be *instant* or quick, but it will keep on looking for you. A confirmation window of "Group found, do you want to join them" is essential as well of course. That means that if you have to dive off for *any* reason, it won't necessarily drop you from the queue instantly, but at least leave you there to wait for another group to be found (and then maybe one or two more attempts to get you to join).
I do agree with you that the whole waiting around whilst the rest of the group is being put together is annoying. Which is why I like the LFG stuff. I skip that waiting around *being in a team* and instead get a team ready made for me... Sure, I have to keep myself amused in that waiting period, but the same happens in other games (ie the manual search for players).
I know that in Wildstar if you want to join a group running X dungeon (or X adventure, or X PvP scenario) you can do. You just select which ones you want to join in for. Hell, you can say "First available Vet Adventure" if you wanted. But unfortunately you cannot queue for multiple categories at the same time (Ie no looking for Dungeon/Adventure/PvP setup. I really should suggest that though!)
You can also end up joining a group partway through (Player quits/drops for any reason). On top of that, I believe that their system also *tries* at least to avoid putting people together who are on an ignore list (not tried this, as I don't have this). I have ended up teaming with people in my Guild via the LFG interface as well (strange, but fun as well... I keep on saying that the other person is trying to kill me in party chat).
Anyway, the reason why I believe that you don't see anything more detailed happening is because the interface is designed to throw people together who might not be in the same channels/servers together so that they can at least do the content that they *want* to do. Anything more, which requires player co-ordination is typically left to the chat channels (or spamming local LFG)
The preference list would be an interesting addition though.
I think that is because the other games only really allow you to *join* a queue for one type of content at a time. So making it so that you can join *multiple* different queues would be a nice addition. So in terms of WoW setting, this could mean queueing for Raids, Dungeons AND PvP at the same time. As far as I am aware, this is pretty much missing across the game worlds. This would give you your "small team" setup, and also your *raid* sized/TF sized setups if you so desired.
Now for 2/3 man setups.... that would indeed be an interesting thing. And this is where the CoX style of "Player status" window would be handy. Or chat channels. I can see someone flagging themselves for a duo/three man, and another team flagging for "One more player".... and neither of them joining up because they are looking for something that neither side can offer.
Just my explanations/reasonings for why stuff might be done as they are being done.
As opposed to the team of five Masterminds in a bank mission. Folks could barely move for all the pets, but it didn't matter; the instant something came in range it was just *vaporized*. Benches, signage, cars, heroes… buildings would have been on the list but they didn't support it.
I'm almost afraid to think what a full team of eight (or worse, a full league for iTrials) would have been like.
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[color=#ff0000]Developer Emeritus[/color]
and multipurpose sheep
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When we did mothership raids we use to do 8 masterminds it was fun but oh the lag
I have to say that is one of the things I LOVED about CoH. They didn't say "you can't do this because it's a bad idea", they just let you do it if you wanted. I LOVED that you could put together a team if 8 Masterminds IF YOU WANTED TO--but if that sounded awful to you, you just didn't do it.
There was an outdoor open map mission set to 4/8 with 7 Masterminds and me (I never played a Mastermind. I'd come to terms with the fact that I'm a Scrank at heart and always will be) that I will never forget, and that I was privileged to have been a part of.
The endless Zerg horde swarming over the hills to converge on the AV smelled like...
Victory.
I think the single thing that I loved the most about CoH was that, instead of putting you on rails, whenever they could they let you play fast and loose like some kind of jazz Dalek*.
This produced good times like I've never even come close to in any other game.
* composite Old Gregg reference
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I was part of an 8 MM ITF, it was awesome! And not just for the shear number of pets; I think we had most of the MM secondary represented, making us an unstoppable army of destruction..
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Oh I know what you mean it was fun to go all blaster or controller team I just mentioned illusion cause of phantom armies we had indestructible tanks lead off then we would just go to town
I hopped onto a pug team to find 6 MM with 6 pets each already there (so 43 of us)... thankfully I was a corruptor. As it was I could barely see the targets and operated almost entirely by tabbing to find my targets (which often were becoming vaporized as fast as I could find them).
Then those sadists :D invited a brute who gamefully stuck around though I can only imagine how hard it was for him to get at anything.
edit: The one unusual team I never actually got a chance to run with was a team of 8 Fire/Sonic Resonance controllers.