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Heroes and Villains

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Gluke
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Heroes and Villains

I read there was a split in the community here early on, with one camp being CoT and the others forming HaV. How did the divide come about?

"TRUST ME."

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Golden_Girl, period. Don't

Golden_Girl decided she didn't want to play with other key figures in the "revival" efforts thus HaV came about. Don't forget that Valiance Online is a third major group that split off to do their own thing as well.

That's the twitter-length version of the story at any rate. ;)

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It depends on who you ask.

It depends on who you ask. Golden Girl views her efforts as the original, and everyone else as a splinter group. We view our efforts as the original, and hers as the splinter. As Obi Wan Kenobi put it, "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

The most I can do is wish her luck. Knowing the challenges we have faced, I can only imagine the ones she is.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

It depends on who you ask. Golden Girl views her efforts as the original, and everyone else as a splinter group. We view our efforts as the original, and hers as the splinter. As Obi Wan Kenobi put it, "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
The most I can do is wish her luck. Knowing the challenges we have faced, I can only imagine the ones she is.

And people wonder why there are dozens of denominations of practically any religion you can name. ;)

With this particular situation I don't really care which group officially "splintered" off from the other - I care more about which one has the best chance for success overall and currently I believe that lies with MWM. I wish the other efforts well - I just don't have much "faith" in them. *shrugs*

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Clear vision is hard to

Clear vision is hard to coalesce around.. it seems to me that CoT is the clearest vision, even if VO appears to have the furthest execution

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I hope they ALL succeed, I

I hope they ALL succeed, I really do. if I was a betting man (and I would have made that bet had I known about the kickstarter :( ) , I would put my money on MWM making it to the end with the best product from what I have seen thus far. it's the reason I lurk around these forums...I believe!

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HaV and CoT started as one

HaV and CoT started as one and got divided by a difference in opinion based on gameplay. HaV wants to re-build CoH with all original machanics from what ive read. CoT, to me, is the best option because of clear and updated CoH feel. CoT is building a new game that uses what worked and fixes what didn't while updating some.

Valiance, again from what ive read, was never part of this effort but started making there game months before CoH was announced to be closed. So Valiance has been ahead of the other projects because they wanted to make CoH 2 way before CoH closed. They have not been faster but started ahead of others.

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And since seeing the gameplay

And since seeing the gameplay of Valiance alpha, im sticking with CoT because the other games, even new, look like it feels outdated.

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Yes, VO had a fantasy game

Yes, VO had a fantasy game that they were working on that went south on them, but since they had worked on assets and an engine and were CoH fans they decided to just redo their graphics and continue working on what is now VO.
HaV is pretty much GG breaking off from the original group of contributors, which are pretty much all here on CoT still, and going for her own version of a game.
There is also Atlas Park Revival. They are a totally different team (much smaller I believe) who are remaking CoH in Unreal. APR is most likely awaiting word on the efforts to get the IP released so they can even have a game without any suing happening. MWM has pledged to help with some assets if they go ahead with it.

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While I can't say I agree

While I can't say I agree with all of either CoT or HaV's direction, having looked them over at the time, HaV felt like ti was trying to be an imitation of CoH in almost every way, but with a new engine.

Truthfully, from what I've seen both need help in the story department (this doesn't mean I'm a great storyteller or think I am, to those who think that's the proper response to such a statement) as so far they all come off as bland and (for lack of a better word) forced, with no real love put into them other than "You know what I think would be cool?"

whiteperegrine
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Truthfully, from what I've seen both need help in the story department (this doesn't mean I'm a great storyteller or think I am, to those who think that's the proper response to such a statement) as so far they all come off as bland and (for lack of a better word) forced, with no real love put into them other than "You know what I think would be cool?"

I can see where you are coming from in this regard. we actually know very very lil about the pre-existing world that will be surrounding our characters. as such, it is hard to get excited regarding that portion. I personally would like to see a lot more art on all the main characters (hero and villain) including more information regarding them.

I would also like to see more on these characters storywise and how they all interact. through these stories we can be introduced to the world at large that our characters will be wandering about in. in an ideal world, this would be done in a comic book fashion, but that probably isn't realistic given a volunteer workforce.

still, they could start looking at taking on volunteers to start fleshing out the characters via art work and stories. these in turn could be placed in either the forums or make a new page on the website dedicated to the CoT world and the characters that inhabit it.

just a thought.

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Looking over at massivelyop

Looking over at massivelyop.net, it seems like GG is spending more time trolling the Wildstar/NCsoft linked threads than anything else.

Makes me (as an outsider) think even less of H&V than I did previously, and she is NOT making the CoX crowd look good doing it in my own opinion.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Truthfully, from what I've seen both need help in the story department (this doesn't mean I'm a great storyteller or think I am, to those who think that's the proper response to such a statement) as so far they all come off as bland and (for lack of a better word) forced, with no real love put into them other than "You know what I think would be cool?"

Just curious, what were your thoughts on CoH's storytelling?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Truthfully, from what I've seen both need help in the story department (this doesn't mean I'm a great storyteller or think I am, to those who think that's the proper response to such a statement) as so far they all come off as bland and (for lack of a better word) forced, with no real love put into them other than "You know what I think would be cool?"

Just curious, what were your thoughts on CoH's storytelling?

Varied!

Freakshow were interesting until they made them a joke because of one ELITE SPEAK name and then the playerbase. Now, I would never have gone with some of those looks (just seemed impractical) when it came to the bosses. Like TWO blade hands.

I hated the ending storyline, because it felt like a total stunt to just kill off Jack characters.

I don't care for publicity stunt storytelling in my comics, not going to care for it in my MMO either.

Didn't care for their "We're making a nazi group but afraid to go with it" Marvel doesn't back away from it. Captain America took on Nazi's! Then they (the Nazi's) have their splintered supervillain group!

Carnival of Shadows felt awesome. Loved the Shadow Shard, though I think there were aspects of it's storyline seemed to be more from a MMO standpoint than if it had been based on a comic.

Hellions and Skullz gangs were great additions! Outcasts not so much. Trolls were also a good villain group.

Basically...gangs formed around a power source...magic, demon worship or a drug is good. A gang based on the idea of just that many thugs being born with elemental powers...meh.

They should've done more with the Mafia and Triad groups imo. I also don't see why we wouldn't have seen them encroaching on some of the areas a bit more often. Like we never saw them try to move in on the more street thug style gangs.

Maybe it made sense with the war walls? Also, war walls was a terrible idea. Would've been better to have an invisible wall that said "Entering the Talos neighborhood...want to continue?"

I liked the Rikti. Didn't care for their different fractions. Not that it was bad. But it was made into to much of a big thing. Would've preferred to have seen that stay a smaller story, with Rikti staying a big bad style alien evil group.

I didn't care for the idea of them turning MMO mechanics into IC things. Enhancements should've stayed OOC. Badges should've stayed OOC. Auction house...well it worked for the Black Market, less so for the hero side of it. Heroes just shouldn't be auctioning off nuclear waste :p

Did not like the idea of heroes being so prevalent that they could not only make a company for them, they could build many stores and be profitable enough to stay in business.

Serious...Paragon City was ONE city and the idea is there's enough of a population of heroes to support 4 individual hero outfiting public stores?

I think a good superhero MMO would be better served with being willing to seperate some game mechanics between OOC and IC. Doing other wise makes it feel like they're trying to slap superhero genre on a D&D setting.

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We don't have just one Nazi

We don't have just one Nazi group, but two, yes, two Nazi groups! Ah Ah Ah!

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

I would also like to see more on these characters storywise and how they all interact. through these stories we can be introduced to the world at large that our characters will be wandering about in. in an ideal world, this would be done in a comic book fashion, but that probably isn't realistic given a volunteer workforce.

Oh god. Please don't ask for more backstory or lore.

Please.

No.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We don't have just one Nazi group, but two, yes, two Nazi groups! Ah Ah Ah!

I know I'm the odd man out, but I do not like Nazis and Zombies (or patchwork people pseudo-zombies) for enemy groups. Seriously boring for me. One of the things I really disliked about the Hero side is everybody wanted to go beat up on the Council. PuG or SG, every time I got into a group we ran endless missions running through Council bases. Then they turn around and do nothing but whine about how there is no magic salvage to be found on the hero side so they have to combine the auction houses and strip mine the Rogue Isles!

Meh. Not very heroic in my opinion.

But hey, I spent most of my game time everywhere except Paragon City, so it worked out just fine. When I played solo on the blueside I spent most of my time either in Croatoa or chasing Carnival of Shadows and Devouring Earth. They were much more interesting enemy groups! Then when First Ward came out it became another favorite haunt.

I know CoT will have Nazis and Zombies because a game like this has to have them, but I will do everything in my power to avoid missions featuring them. There are supposed to be forty-something enemy groups, right? Should be easy enough to avoid two of them.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

whiteperegrine wrote:
I would also like to see more on these characters storywise and how they all interact. through these stories we can be introduced to the world at large that our characters will be wandering about in. in an ideal world, this would be done in a comic book fashion, but that probably isn't realistic given a volunteer workforce.
Oh god. Please don't ask for more backstory or lore.
Please.
No.

Having an adequate backstory/lore for a game like this is important. But like everything else it needs to be in measured amounts that don't get so overblown that it actually gets in the way of the game itself.

Put it this way: It might be nice to eventually have thousands of pages of backstory to absorb for a game that's been around for years. But if gods forbid CoT crashes hard right after launch then any amount of effort it took to create those thousands of pages of backstory before the crash is more or less wasted effort. If CoT proves successful there will be plenty of time to make the lore as detailed as they want later on.

Greyhawk wrote:

I know CoT will have Nazis and Zombies because a game like this has to have them, but I will do everything in my power to avoid missions featuring them. There are supposed to be forty-something enemy groups, right? Should be easy enough to avoid two of them.

Well that's supposedly the hope for having that many groups to interact with. The superhero genre is broad enough that even if you don't like all of the classic villains you're bound to like at least some of them. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Having an adequate backstory/lore for a game like this is important. But like everything else it needs to be in measured amounts that don't get so overblown that it actually gets in the way of the game itself.
Put it this way: It might be nice to eventually have thousands of pages of backstory to absorb for a game that's been around for years. But if gods forbid CoT crashes hard right after launch then any amount of effort it took to create those thousands of pages of backstory before the crash is more or less wasted effort. If CoT proves successful there will be plenty of time to make the lore as detailed as they want later on.

Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% that things need backstory to give it meaning for missions and story progression through the course of a play through. But that's where I want to ingest it. IN THE GAME. There is far too much lore already, and with their lofty idea of having over 40 groups to deal with, I can't imagine how much more we will be subjected to before we get our hands on anything to play.

I just think a lot of it should be saved for us to discover as we play. It's going to lose a lot of its shine if we've read it already during development.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Having an adequate backstory/lore for a game like this is important. But like everything else it needs to be in measured amounts that don't get so overblown that it actually gets in the way of the game itself.
Put it this way: It might be nice to eventually have thousands of pages of backstory to absorb for a game that's been around for years. But if gods forbid CoT crashes hard right after launch then any amount of effort it took to create those thousands of pages of backstory before the crash is more or less wasted effort. If CoT proves successful there will be plenty of time to make the lore as detailed as they want later on.
Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% that things need backstory to give it meaning for missions and story progression through the course of a play through. But that's where I want to ingest it. IN THE GAME. There is far too much lore already, and with their lofty idea of having over 40 groups to deal with, I can't imagine how much more we will be subjected to before we get our hands on anything to play.
I just think a lot of it should be saved for us to discover as we play. It's going to lose a lot of its shine if we've read it already during development.

The same can be said of the art and the gameplay as well. So we do snippets of each.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Zerohour wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Having an adequate backstory/lore for a game like this is important. But like everything else it needs to be in measured amounts that don't get so overblown that it actually gets in the way of the game itself.
Put it this way: It might be nice to eventually have thousands of pages of backstory to absorb for a game that's been around for years. But if gods forbid CoT crashes hard right after launch then any amount of effort it took to create those thousands of pages of backstory before the crash is more or less wasted effort. If CoT proves successful there will be plenty of time to make the lore as detailed as they want later on.

Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% that things need backstory to give it meaning for missions and story progression through the course of a play through. But that's where I want to ingest it. IN THE GAME. There is far too much lore already, and with their lofty idea of having over 40 groups to deal with, I can't imagine how much more we will be subjected to before we get our hands on anything to play.
I just think a lot of it should be saved for us to discover as we play. It's going to lose a lot of its shine if we've read it already during development.

The same can be said of the art and the gameplay as well. So we do snippets of each.

No way! Like to know the art and game play right away!

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I completely understand how

I completely understand how some folks may not want more stories...but I would. it serves as something to show things are continuing to move forward and has the possibility of being entertaining while we wait for the game itself. for those that have no interest...all they have to do is, you guessed it, don't read it!

my suggestion was for the possibility of new volunteers to take this on. as such it would have no affect on the development of the game. this new story/art based information would be separated to a separate page versus using as 'updates'. updates I look as being for updates on the actual game itself and not the backstory...and separating it would keep also keep the two separate for those only wishing to see the technical aspects and not the "fluff".

is it bad to see more, whether in regards to story or art, regarding the world we all want to run around in? I don't think so....and on the art side it may provide a lil of info regarding not only the style they are shooting for but the overall "feel" as well.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We don't have just one Nazi group, but two, yes, two Nazi groups! Ah Ah Ah!

Just as long as one of them isn't so green and boring that it makes them unbearable

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I wouldn't mind seeing some

I wouldn't mind seeing some small previews when it becomes practical

1 minute snippets of zone atmosphere. Short look-ins on the major NPCs, their costumes and general personality emotes. Back-stories to come later

That's a ways off, I think. Getting a good costume creator demo out there is probably Job One PR wise

But, please, make sure you keep a steady stream of youtube posts coming. Remind people that you're still here and that the game looks GOOD

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The same can be said of the art and the gameplay as well. So we do snippets of each.

Whoa I have to disagree with that! Art/graphics and gameplay are what keep people playing, more than anything they hold onto people's interests. Gameplay more than anything should NOT lose it's shine. That was part of the magic of CoH, it never got dull because the power set combinations and resultant gameplay were kept fresh. But the LORE, the backstory, after running those missions and TFs over and over, well I don't have to say that it didn't take long before I skipped them altogether.

Art and gameplay done RIGHT will never lose it's shine.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Whoa I have to disagree with that! Art/graphics and gameplay are what keep people playing, more than anything they hold onto people's interests. Gameplay more than anything should NOT lose it's shine. That was part of the magic of CoH, it never got dull because the power set combinations and resultant gameplay were kept fresh. But the LORE, the backstory, after running those missions and TFs over and over, well I don't have to say that it didn't take long before I skipped them altogether.
Art and gameplay done RIGHT will never lose it's shine.

I see your point, and that is obviously true for you, but, you know, diff'rent strokes... http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6jJIVK-daGk

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Lore is important, but I have

Lore is important, but I have to agree with Zerohour, art and gameplay will hold on to people longer.

Really, anyone who's played an MMO has seen more people who don't care for the story than do. Get into an MMO, even with some RPers, ask them some questions and they'll not know or care.

CoH had those exact players.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lore is important, but I have to agree with Zerohour, art and gameplay will hold on to people longer.
Really, anyone who's played an MMO has seen more people who don't care for the story than do. Get into an MMO, even with some RPers, ask them some questions and they'll not know or care.
CoH had those exact players.

I couldn't agree with this more...Art is 1st, Gameplay 2nd and lore falls into 3rd place in my MMO experience it's always the same!

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I would put Gameplay 1st, Art

I would put Gameplay 1st, Art second, and Lore 3rd.

Case in point Minecraft. Gameplay major fun. Art... well it's nice blocks.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lore is important, but I have to agree with Zerohour, art and gameplay will hold on to people longer.
Really, anyone who's played an MMO has seen more people who don't care for the story than do. Get into an MMO, even with some RPers, ask them some questions and they'll not know or care.
CoH had those exact players.

I tend to see the subset of people who are big into a game's lore just like the subset of people who are big into PvP, the subset who are big into badges/achievements, the subset who are big into crafting, etc. It takes all kinds of players and some people just care more about some aspects of a game than others.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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If low isn't important why

If lore isn't important why wait for a Superhero game at all? There are plenty of games with great art and great gameplay.

Lore comes first for me. As the majority of CO and CoH game time goes right back to doing the same missions over and over. All you have left is being a superhero. If instead I was suddenly a zombie survivor I'd log off. I came for the tights so get it right.

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I care about the lore. given

I care about the lore. given I will be playing a superhero MMO I personally think it is somewhat important to have the background. it is this very background that gives us all those NPC superheroes and supervillains. this is not to mention the scores of various groups out there that inhabit the world and affect the missions we will be taking. I would like to know a lil bit about the folks I am working for and while some of the information we can indeed get in game I think it would be nice to have some information and art prior to the release to get us a better feel for the whole thing and the world that will be surrounding us.

lore and art helps set the tone for the game. I can only hope that when designing these groups and various persons of interest they developed some kind of background for them and how they all view one another. even if just the basics were released I suspect we night see others take that ball and run by creating their own stories. would these stories be cannon...nope...but it would still give more over all life to the world at large. in addition, it would provide a source of continuing "excitement" and interest in CoT, for some folks, while we wait for the day we can actually play the game.

it also appears that some are assuming that I am advocating that this be background and art take some sort of precedence over designing the game itself...this is the farthest thing from the truth. I am suggesting that they look at taking on a few more volunteers to work on this portion so it is developed at the same time. given this could be done much quicker than the actual game itself I would suggest having a separate page for it, like there is one for the Blog (which hasn't been used in quite awhile). given the responces it is readily apparent that this is not a popular subject but I believe it is vitally important as I would find it kinda weird that in designing a game that all this hadn't been hashed out, for the most part, by this point. if lore and art are not your "thing"? that's cool, I completely respect that, just don't read it or look at it. by having it all on a separate part of the website, you don't have to see it if that kinda thing doesn't interest you.

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I think there's a difference

I think there's a difference between knowing a game is based on the superhero genre and having a game where you have to know what Statesman's cousin's brother's uncle's college roommate's hat size is in order to succeed in a mission.

To me "lore" is the narrative backdrop for a game that helps establish the major personalities and general context for the setting. There has to be a bare minimum amount of lore to flesh out a game's universe. But like anything else there can be an excess of detail that serves a diminishing amount of purpose for most people. As I said before there are some players who love to get as much lore detail as they can but that's only true for a subset of players. For better or worse many players can get by with a Tweet-sized lore summary and call it a day.

Nothing wrong with game lore. Just remember that most people don't need a novel-sized amount of it to enjoy a game.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I think there's a difference between knowing a game is based on the superhero genre and having a game where you have to know what Statesman's cousin's brother's uncle's college roommate's hat size is in order to succeed in a mission.

*makes notes to ensure I have that information for a future mission that will never be made* what!?! it's important to know this stuff! :p

some has been put out there, agreed, but in very general strokes, that I have seen. we know there are multiple groups out there but know almost nothing about these. there are still a bunch of other heroes and villains that we know very little about. artwise, we have seen a lil bit about Anthem...but what about the rest? as I mentioned, this obviously is not everyones cup of tea, but it does matter. it matters because this is the world we will be living in...this is the world we will be interacting with. this is the world that MWM is going to be attempting to sell to the world at large and the more art and stories associated to the game makes it more appealing across the board.

some folks like to read...some just like to look at the cool art (and I would say more of the later than the former). if there is very little of either it makes for a shallow feeling world. more art and background helps make the world feel "alive".

I am not saying everyone has to read the stuff, or look at the art, but I would bet that more people would do it if it was provided. if this art and background was done to a high standard level then word of mouth would start to get out there which in turn increases the potential player base.

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I feel like some of my point

I feel like some of my point is being missed. I'm not saying "forget about lore it doesn't matter". My response to Dr Tyche was because he was suggesting that the "shiny" on art and gameplay can fade just as quickly as lore and backstory. I was disagreeing with that statement because anyone who plays MMOs regularly will know that after you've read the same mission dialogue 2 or 3 times, you don't care anymore. You just want to play the game, which obviously consists of the art (graphics), gameplay and sound. Now if these things lost their shiny as fast as the lore and story did, there would be a real problem.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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RottenLuck wrote:
RottenLuck wrote:

I would put Gameplay 1st, Art 2nd, and Lore 3rd.

In terms of competing priorities, this is the way that I would also rank them.

Gameplay ... you're NEVER going to be able to get away from gameplay. If the gameplay is good, you'll keep coming back. If the gameplay is bad, you've got a One And Done. It's really as simple as that.

Art ... is something that gets you NOTICED but it isn't something that HOLDS your interest. So art is good for drawing attention, but it isn't what keeps people playing. Art is good for encouraging immersion and building a sense of "identity" both with and within a specific game, but it isn't something that will keep you exclusively "bound" to a single specific game. Good art makes the gameplay taste good, but ultimately it isn't the art that is going to keep you playing the game.

Lore ... falls into the category of Nice To Have but isn't absolutely necessary in order to keep playing. As already cited, Lore is great the first time through, but after you "know" the story then it's something that can be dispensed with on a repeat play. In the overall scheme of things though, Lore is essentially the "mechanics behind the storytelling" and is what is used to keep the story elements from dissolving into chaos and ruin. Lore is what not only "keeps the Devs honest" about the setting, but also keeps the Players "honest" about how the world works and how all kinds of bits and pieces fit together. Lore is in many ways the "meta" of the game and is thus important, but also not something that needs to be kept front and center at all times.


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.
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I'll buy the general

I'll buy the general consensus that it's gameplay 1, art 2, lore 3 prioritization... but I really like good lore and it greatly enhances my enjoyment of the game.

Especially and "open" lore like CoT is planning where you don't have a pre-fab origin and you're not already pigeonholed in to the world in a very specific way.

So, yes, lore is third, but third like a bronze in the Olympics. Still a big deal.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Revolution wrote:
Revolution wrote:

Yes, VO had a fantasy game that they were working on that went south on them, but since they had worked on assets and an engine and were CoH fans they decided to just redo their graphics and continue working on what is now VO.
HaV is pretty much GG breaking off from the original group of contributors, which are pretty much all here on CoT still, and going for her own version of a game.
There is also Atlas Park Revival. They are a totally different team (much smaller I believe) who are remaking CoH in Unreal. APR is most likely awaiting word on the efforts to get the IP released so they can even have a game without any suing happening. MWM has pledged to help with some assets if they go ahead with it.

You are not talking about Project Gorgon are you? If so, that project is still going forward and I've heard good things about it despite the mediocre visuals.

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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Wait, I want to know who

Wait, I want to know who Statesman's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate was!! I also want to know what that makes me!!!

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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Absolutely nothing, static.

Absolutely nothing, static. Prepare to defend yourself and may our whatever's not get tangled

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

Wait, I want to know who Statesman's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate was!! I also want to know what that makes me!!!

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm not saying lore isn't

I'm not saying lore isn't important.

I think the first important thing for an MMO is gameplay and art (pretty equal imo)...people want to be able to enjoy the art style of the game and enjoy the game play. This is why I think WoW has survived so long...it's art style is very mass friendly, yes you hear complaints about it, but usually from people who play other MMOs :p

Lore sets the background, some will want to delve deeper than others. Most will want to know there's lore there for them to find, but not care to go to deep. Then of course there will be RPers who totally ignore it even if they know it.

I do agree that it's all the parts of the whole that come together to make a successful MMO, but you need people actually playing the game to keep it going. Try to get rid of one of those groups (even the ERPers) and things will begin to break down!

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

lore and art helps set the tone for the game. I can only hope that when designing these groups and various persons of interest they developed some kind of background for them and how they all view one another.

We have had meetings and emails and other things that have discussed *at length* how things interact with one another. Who works for whom. How this factions identifies with that one over there. We even have a spreadsheet to keep it all straight...

whiteperegrine wrote:

I am suggesting that they look at taking on a few more volunteers to work on this portion so it is developed at the same time.

There are a few people on the Composition Team that are part of other departments (gameplay, sound, etc.), and they are free to shift their focus to whichever team needs them the most at any particular time. However, there are many more that are not involved with the other departments in any way. The reason for this is simple: We can't art or code worth anything. We leave that to the people that have those talents. So, as to your statement, we started doing that two and a half years ago.... :)
If there are people that are interested in joining *any* of the teams, they should send an email (including relevant experience and samples of their work that relate to the department(s) that they are interested in joining) to

Emails will get forwarded from there to the appropriate department heads. Also, some of the departments watch these boards more than others, so posting a thread, as I've seen many do, may or may not get a response. Email is best for this. If you are inquiring about space in Composition, feel free to drop me a PM.

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About lore: Please, don't

About lore: Please, don't make the same mistake that the CoX team made fairly early in the dev cycle. Keep a lore bible. Put it in a secure but easily remembered place

As devs came and went, players were left to trip over the dangling fragments of forgotten story lines. There were even contacts out in the game world that had no stories attached to them at all (that guy hanging out on the rooftop in Kings Row? I'm looking at you...)

It's probably the only thing that I found frustrating about the lore

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HornetsNest wrote:
HornetsNest wrote:

About lore: Please, don't make the same mistake that the CoX team made fairly early in the dev cycle. Keep a lore bible. Put it in a secure but easily remembered place
As devs came and went, players were left to trip over the dangling fragments of forgotten story lines. There were even contacts out in the game world that had no stories attached to them at all (that guy hanging out on the rooftop in Kings Row? I'm looking at you...)
It's probably the only thing that I found frustrating about the lore

We keep the lore very safe in it's Wiki. And we read it. A lot.

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everytime I see a post from

everytime I see a post from Beamrider I cant help but think of poor ole...

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Beamrider wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

We keep the lore very safe in it's Wiki.

SO. MUCH. WANT.

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This looks like a job for....

This looks like a job for.... WIKIMOOSE!

Actually, some of us like to make estimates on, once the game opens, how long it will take the fan-run Wikis to exceed the size of the Dev Wiki. I'm thinking about a week.....

________
This looks like a job for SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

everytime I see a post from Beamrider I cant help but think of poor ole...

It's actually the name of my first Superheroic character, from a Champions PnP game in the 90's. Had an ability to teleport along long-distance phone connections, hence the name. Was twin brother to WaveFront, who was played by SpaceMoose. Who, curiously enough, is my twin brother :-). We played both on CoH Triumph server.

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HornetsNest wrote:
HornetsNest wrote:

About lore: Please, don't make the same mistake that the CoX team made fairly early in the dev cycle. Keep a lore bible. Put it in a secure but easily remembered place
As devs came and went, players were left to trip over the dangling fragments of forgotten story lines. There were even contacts out in the game world that had no stories attached to them at all (that guy hanging out on the rooftop in Kings Row? I'm looking at you...)
It's probably the only thing that I found frustrating about the lore

When in doubt, have a look at Winter's Kickstarter Update List. It makes it easy to find such things as Update 81.

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Hail Beard!

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Gameplay will always be

Gameplay will always be number 1 when it comes to games. If the game isn't fun to play or engaging - then it doesn't matter if it looks pretty or has a cross-referenced encyclopedia of game lore - few will play it. Hell - there are some games from my 486 processor/4mb of ram days that I would still play today (Star Control 2 I'm looking at you).

As for Art/GFX and lore/content......one thing I've noticed over the years of playing games is that as a game ages the importance of these can flip. When the shiny new graphics start to lose their lustre, having a well-developed lore and background built from a mass of content that has been added over the years can be a boon to certain games like RPGs; i.e. if there is "Lots of stuff to do" in a game it will make it more attractive to many players.

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When in doubt, have a look at

When in doubt, have a look at Winter's Kickstarter Update List. It makes it easy to find such things as Update 81 -Darth Fez

Sorry. I got here late and didn't do the mandatory reading

Grade: F

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I'm very much a lore type

I'm very much a lore type person, using it as a stepping point for RP when the game's core story has come to an end. While I appreciate that a lot of gamers will want to make their own context through their actions, I can't help but feel like my quest will mean nothing or be more frustrating and errand-like if the proper context is not given to me. I suppose this hits me more in fantasy games than superhero games, but I digress.

Lore is important, but it's not at the top of the list when designing a game. A game's story should be ideally built around the mechanics of the game, and with a Superhero MMO, I think some of the context supports itself, at least in a mechanical kind of way. On a deeper level, Lore is there to support the player's understanding of the world, providing an answer on 'why' when you want to look past the colourful costumes and astounding powers. Why is Raven so emotionless and monotonous? Because her emotions affect her powers, and that can be dangerous; no emotions mean more control.

When that Why is answered, it needs to be handled well, especially when that Why is asked in regards to a specific event that could have likely had a much better solution. As a recent example, The Order 1886 is a game(ish) that handled its context poorly, terribly even. Many questions were left unanswered, and those that were had answers that would only frustrate the player more and more.

As an RP tool, I see the Lore as important as it provides a set of rules that players can all universally agree on, at least for the most part. The Lore allows players an understanding of the world they play in, and can utilise key aspects of the game as springboards for their characters. In the same way that I typically prefer settling fights in PvP, the lore also exists as an unbiased referee. Unscripted text fights can go on forever if neither player feels like losing, and a lore controlled by the community can potentially feel like certain LARP groups can, or run the risk of it; where the close knit group of friends who started it all have the most power over the story and are defacto 'the main cast' and those who tag along after aren't truly given a chance to shine. There's also the fact that a community controlled lore can be chaotic and hard to control while following the game's lore will be as universal as it can potentially be.

On the flip side, this lore needs to be open ended enough for the players to truly express their creativity. A lore that's too meticulous and complex makes it difficult to follow word for word and will stifle their creativity. A key thing to remember is to try and apply rules to a character, but not have those rules necessarily affect other characters. This was a rule that, I think, CoX got wrong towards the end of its life with the Incarnates thing. In a way, it felt very much like DBZ and how the Saiyans are related to the rest of the setting. Originally, it was kind of a footnote, but towards the end it quite plainly pointed to the fact that nothing was better than a Saiyan. Almost. I may need to elaborate on that later.

As for volunteering, as much as I would love to BeamRider, my training is currently restricted to Game Design and Interactive Story Telling, and I feel like you guys have got those aspects covered by now. :P

I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.

Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.

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I think right now we do

I think right now we do indeed have plenty of writers, although we're always open to ideas. Less sure about Gameplay. Connundrum already gave the address to ask about joining a few posts back.

We really do NOT want the game's lore to overwhelm the player's own stories. Most of us are gamers ourselves, after all.

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But good lore can provide

But good lore can provide background for a character's story. I have a character I like, who I wrote up as an ordinary Council recruit, who got turned into a Nightwolf, and then escaped. His whole hook is 'They made me a Monster, so now I fight them!' Good game lore, subverted in service to a heroic background.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

But good lore can provide background for a character's story. I have a character I like, who I wrote up as an ordinary Council recruit, who got turned into a Nightwolf, and then escaped. His whole hook is 'They made me a Monster, so now I fight them!' Good game lore, subverted in service to a heroic background.

...and he really likes to take 'selfies' while on patrol!

Be Well!
Fireheart

fixed! :p

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Beamrider wrote:
Beamrider wrote:

I think right now we do indeed have plenty of writers, although we're always open to ideas. Less sure about Gameplay. Connundrum already gave the address to ask about joining a few posts back.
We really do NOT want the game's lore to overwhelm the player's own stories. Most of us are gamers ourselves, after all.

I asked about submitting via email a couple weeks ago, and got this reply:

Quote:

Thanks for the offer, but no, we've already got as much as we could possibly manage to use (and then some, from the way the Lore team tells it).

"TRUST ME."

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Gluke wrote:
Gluke wrote:

Beamrider wrote:
I think right now we do indeed have plenty of writers, although we're always open to ideas. Less sure about Gameplay. Connundrum already gave the address to ask about joining a few posts back.
We really do NOT want the game's lore to overwhelm the player's own stories. Most of us are gamers ourselves, after all.

I asked about submitting via email a couple weeks ago, and got this reply:
Quote:
Thanks for the offer, but no, we've already got as much as we could possibly manage to use (and then some, from the way the Lore team tells it).

A "large volume of lore" and "overshadowing lore" are two different things. While we have a large amount of lore, it is primarily the background and history, with a general direction. We know the direction we are headed, but we do not yet have all the tracks laid. Those will be furbished as we need them, and not before. Everything we have so far has been written specifically to address "How does this affect, and get affected by, the PC?"

Beamrider is very correct in that we do not want the lore to overshadow the player's stories, but we have to create the world for those stories to happen in. We have chosen to build that world to be as realistic as possible (without all those pesky "hot button topics").

We do want to hear your opinions on what we release, but also keep in mind that we are holding much of it back to reveal during gameplay. We provide snippets of the lore, not the whole saga, in our updates.

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Conundrum of Furballs

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

...and he really likes to take 'selfies' while on patrol!
fixed! :p

Hah, yeah, that's him. That's Dual-Blades' 'Taunt' animation. Nicely dramatic pose, with good posture, instead of the usual slightly 'hunched' position that 'Huge' defaults to. Which is why I used it for the pic.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I really need to finish his

I really need to finish his pic for ya. I've been lazy in the art department. :(