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Have the devs seen this?

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Brainbot
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Have the devs seen this?

I was looking at the unreal site for a project I am doing when I came across this.

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/unrealdevgrants

If you haven't looked into this it might be a good idea to check it out.

Cyclops
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there is a brief animation.

In the about section, there is a brief animation. one has a gal with a floating robot orb..it has arms and hands...i really like that little robot. that would make a great firing point

avelworldcreator
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Yes, as a matter of fact we

Yes, as a matter of fact we have. :) At least I have anyways.

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Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.

Lin Chiao Feng
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We'll probably haul in way

We'll probably haul in way more than that from y'all when the Second Chance hits.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Doctor Tyche
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Frankly, we have not needed

Frankly, we have not needed it. It seems unfair to compete for a grant that would make or break it for someone else when we are doing ok. The main reason we're doing Second Chance at all is because you guys have been begging us for one.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Brainbot
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It's not the money (which is

It's not the money (which is only 50k max), it's the advertising that comes with it.

Doctor Tyche
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And when would advertising be

And when would advertising be better suited? Now, over a year from when people will be able to access it, or next year?

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

Brainbot
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How about from now until next

How about from now until next year?
Being able to say you were chosen as an Unreal grant recipient doesn't go away. Unreal will probably be advertising this grant for at least a year.
This could be a nice little addition to put on the Second Chance to calm naysayers.
It's your choice ultimately but I can't see any drawback to at least applying.

ThunderCAP
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The first time is important

The first time is important and you may burn it, an advertise too soon may eliminate some players instead of adding them (they got an adv but nothing else to try or see? They'll remember they already checked City of Titans and didn't get impressed, in release they may not give a second chance). This is the drawback I can think of.

It's the same for an open-beta test too soon, the player says "bad game" and never comes back. Final releases are best suited for the open public, testing must be done by few imho.

Brainbot
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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

The first time is important and you may burn it, an advertise too soon may eliminate some players instead of adding them (they got an adv but nothing else to try or see? They'll remember they already checked City of Titans and didn't get impressed, in release they may not give a second chance). This is the drawback I can think of.

How is letting unreal show the same stuff MWM has been showing already going to suddenly result in people turning away in numbers greater than it brings in? Your argument makes no sense at all.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what the grant is exactly. They have forums which go into more detail about the grant.

No argument used in this thread show logic.
The same videos, images and release information MWM has already released would just reach a larger audience through Epic and Unreal. Epic and Unreal do not release anything that MWM does not want them to.

Getting the grant (which is not a guarantee by the way) is NOT taking money away from more worthy/needy developers, that's not the way this grant works. Grants are decided upon by measure against other applicants. If MWM was chosen it is because they were deemed more worthy than others. This grant in particular is not about making someones dreams come true, it is a marketing strategy by Epic and Unreal to showcase their product through developers innovations. To be clearer, Epic and Unreal are looking at creative uses of their product and rewarding developers for it which lets them say to potential developers/customers down the line 'Look what you can do with our engine.'

The money the grant offers is nominal but to have Epic and Unreal stand up and say 'Take notice of this game' is damn big. And it doesn't go away after a few days or months. There are reasons why entertainment awards are plastered all over games, movies, books and so on.

Saying 'some might not like what they see and will turn away' is narrow sighted at best, if for no other reason than those 'some' are unlikely to be equal to the 'others' the early advertisment brings in. Car companies preview new models years in advance, Authors will release unedited excerpts from up comming novels, movies have trailers within the first few days of filming and other games begin building recognition immediately (unless they are Blizzard). The point is that advertising (with exceptions) do not turn people away, the product does. If MWM was able to secure a grant from Epic and Unreal then their product has a worth that Epic and Unreal can exploit for their own gain and are not going to put forth something that will not only hurt MWM but themselves in the process.

These are the things that MWM should be thinking about when considering this grant (and probably are/have).

ThunderCAP
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Maybe I didn't understand you

Maybe I didn't understand you, my comment was specifically about: "advertising the game now: good or bad?".

The question of Tyche imho makes sense. Many peoples (casual players?) need to be impressed the first time they hear about a game. They don't give a second chance for a game they think they already checked once, they don't care if they checked it while it was in "alpha" stage or even a previous step, they don't see if under the video there was the sentence "work in progress", one chance is all you got.

I can't see how you would say such simple reasoning "doesn't make sense at all". If they'll manage to impress the peoples at the moment of the advertise then everything will be fine, I'm surely impressed already with all their work but I'm not a "casual player", I'm more an old time follower, so I think I can't be an example for what may happen with the masses.

I'm not telling they shouldn't do what you suggest Brainbot, you may be right (and the money is always good I guess^^), I just replied to a question since I know one possible drawback of heavily advertising a game when you're not ready. You can see it like: "make sure you're ready if you begin to heavily advertising your game" which extends to "also make sure you're ready when you open your game to the masses for the first time".

Brainbot
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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

The question of Tyche imho makes sense. Many peoples (casual players?) need to be impressed the first time they hear about a game. They don't give a second chance for a game they think they already checked once, they don't care if they checked it while it was in "alpha" stage or even a previous step, they don't see if under the video there was the sentence "work in progress", one chance is all you got.

I think you are assuming some things you really shouldn't. Specifically that MWM wouldn't choose to put their best foot forward and only release polished (not finished, just polished) material for this grant. Here is an article about marketing an indie game which is relevant.
https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/marketing-your-indie-game-the-single-most-important-thing-to-learn--gamedev-7157

Waiting too long to market can (and usually does) have a negative impact on sales. In fact, MWM is already marketing the game. They have social media, a website, developer blogs, crowd sourcing, convention appearances and released teasers. The only thing they haven't really pursued is press exposure (something a grant from Epic and Unreal would help with). In fact I would be suprised (and disapointed) if MWM did not have a marketing plan already. If you don't know what a marketing plan is here is a summary:
https://www.gamesparks.com/blog/game-marketing-strategy/
So when I say it makes no sense to dismiss this as too early I have a solid reasoning behind it.

You are right that poor images/demos would have a detrimental effect on the games future but that assumes a fundamental failing of the MWM team in knowing what would be detrimental. Just to clarify, MWM is not going to release images/demos that look like crap in conjunction with this grant.

Your anecdotal argument that 'Many peoples (casual players?) need to be impressed the first time they hear about a game.' is not a fact. Games tend to have the most vocal of all consumers (with exceptions) and as such every game with open development goes through periods of positive and negative exposure. First impressions are not the final decider for the vast majority of those consumers, casual or not.
You can find evidence of this here:
https://ourarchive.otago.ac.nz/handle/10523/2238

ThunderCAP wrote:

I'm not telling they shouldn't do what you suggest Brainbot, you may be right (and the money is always good I guess^^), I just replied to a question since I know one possible drawback of heavily advertising a game when you're not ready. You can see it like: "make sure you're ready if you begin to heavily advertising your game" which extends to "also make sure you're ready when you open your game to the masses for the first time".

There wasn't a question to be answered. I didn't ask 'what is the downside' I stated 'I don't see a downside'. Keep in mind I said this about applying.
I hold this position because I have investigated marketing for a project I am working on. What I found was that first impressions are not as valuable as exposure in terms of marketing. If you can do both that's good but faced with a choice moderately positive exposure is worth more than an overwhelmingly positive first impression in marketing.

Regardless of all this, MWM will get to choose what marketing material would be used in conjunction with this grant exposure. They will give talking points they want discussed, images they want seen and gameplay videos they want to show. This grant won't require giving anyone access to the game that MWM doesn't want them to have. Your concerns over first impressions are firmly in MWM's hands.

One final thing, you didn't explain how Epic and Unreal using marketing for CoT is any different than MWM releasing this info on their own. Something MWM has been doing for years now.

dreamcatcher
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

One final thing, you didn't explain how Epic and Unreal using marketing for CoT is any different than MWM releasing this info on their own. Something MWM has been doing for years now.

I'm not weighing in on the wider topic, but the above challenge is disengenuous at best. The answer to this is obvious; brand recognition. Epic is well known; established; they've been around a while and when they showcase something, like a game, people notice. It has a cascade effect.

MWM, while being a disruptor, is a complete unknown, and not only are they a new player, they've also adopted a risky development strategy. People will be sceptical. However, if a big name gets behind the work they're doing and says "This is cool stuff. This is innovative. This is ground breaking" or something along those lines, that changes things significantly.

of Phoenix Rising
Am I

Brainbot
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dreamcatcher wrote:
dreamcatcher wrote:

I'm not weighing in on the wider topic,

The problem with cherry picking one point without considering the context in which it was made is you completely miss the point. It's easy to call something disingenuous when you disregard the reason why it was said.

The question I made directly relates to ThunderCAP's and Tyches position of 'too soon to market the game'. As I have said, MWM has already begun to market so saying it's 'too soon' has come too late.

These fear based arguments of 'too soon' come from the assumption that MWM is incapable of presenting positive marketing material at this time. From what I have seen (and what the devs have said themselves) MWM could bang out some professional quality marketing material in a matter of days. They haven't yet because it was not a priority but the possibility of free marketing should at least give them pause to reconsider.

I am just getting frustrated with what I perceive to be short sighted, uninformed, illogical or (in this case) out of context arguments. I am not looking to start some kind of war on this topic and my ire is leading me in that direction. So, unless personally questioned, I am done trying to explain the merits of Epic and Unreal's grant offers.

Lin Chiao Feng
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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Being able to say you were chosen as an Unreal grant recipient doesn't go away.

Being able to say we pulled in over $600k from 5000+ backers on our Kickstarter doesn't go away either. Personally, I'm way prouder of that than I'd be of a handout from Unreal for one tenth of that.

Brainbot wrote:

This could be a nice little addition to put on the Second Chance to calm naysayers.

We're not doing the Second Chance to calm naysayers. Naysayers won't be calmed. We're doing Second Chance because we have a lot of fans who missed the Kickstarter and really want to contribute and it only seems fair since this game has taken twice as long to develop as initially predicted.

Brainbot wrote:

No argument used in this thread show logic.

Okay, now you're just being offensive. I'm out.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Brainbot
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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Being able to say we pulled in over $600k from 5000+ backers on our Kickstarter doesn't go away either. Personally, I'm way prouder of that than I'd be of a handout from Unreal for one tenth of that.

Lacks comprehension.

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

We're not doing the Second Chance to calm naysayers. Naysayers won't be calmed. We're doing Second Chance because we have a lot of fans who missed the Kickstarter and really want to contribute and it only seems fair since this game has taken twice as long to develop as initially predicted.

Misrepresentation of the quote

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Okay, now you're just being offensive. I'm out.

Misplaced outrage.

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

It's your choice ultimately but I can't see any drawback to at least applying.

This is the most sensical thing said in this entire thread. Not sure why a suggestion that could help with more funding and raising the profile of the project was met with such hostility. ????

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Kid Rad wrote:
Kid Rad wrote:

This is the most sensical thing said in this entire thread. Not sure why a suggestion that could help with more funding and raising the profile of the project was met with such hostility.

Thank you.
To be fair, the only hostility in the thread has been from me, others just disagree with the suggestion for various reasons. Others may have, to a very small extent, tried to talk down to me in their arguments (which I provided counter points to), but they were not, IMO, hostile.
In my defense, my hostility was born of frustration for what I see as an egregious lack of comprehension to the merits.

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So hostile brainbot, sheesh!!

So hostile brainbot, geeeze!!!

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Frankly, we have not needed it. It seems unfair to compete for a grant that would make or break it for someone else when we are doing ok. The main reason we're doing Second Chance at all is because you guys have been begging us for one.

Here is a reasoned response to the OP.

Be Well!
Firehart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Here is a reasoned response to the OP.

No that isn't a reasoned response. It's an emotional response masquerading as an ethical decision. This wouldn't be so bad if the ethics were not wrong as well. According to ethics, ignoring opportunities like this is harmful to all parties involved.
It's posts like this that really get me. At first they seem sound and right but if you dig below the surface you see all the holes in the 'logic'.

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This topic has turned toxic.

This topic has turned toxic.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Well, someone has a toxic

Well, someone has a toxic feeling about it, yeah.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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/e barfs a rainbow all over

/e barfs a rainbow all over the ground and then passes out in his own filth

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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I think some people

I think some people overanalyze and rip apart what is posted on this forum too much. Maybe its the reality of how much longer until we can get online and bash things that is causing this, or the users themselves, but let's just have a little more trust that MWM knows what they are doing and can make decisions that will benefit everyone in the end.

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I amend my earlier statement

I amend my earlier statement to acknowledge that the hostility was solely emanating from brainbot, and that my blame was misplaced there. If they don't need it, they don't need it, and shouldn't be lambasted for not pursuing funding they don't need.

I mean, I get it. Some people are frustrated with the progress and timeline, and think that if they could just get this funding or that high profile spotlight on their project, it will finally get finished. That is clearly not the case, and they will be done when they're done, no matter what happens. So sit back, relax, and rest assured that they are more than good on funding, and despite this fact they have another fundraiser coming soon that you can promote the hell out of when it comes around.

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Quote:
Quote:

This topic has turned toxic.

I take my share of responsibility for that. It would be nice if others could as well but I guess not.

My initial suggestion was for MWM to look into the grant because as I said in the OP I am doing a project using unreal and saw the grant. I asked for additional information and realized that it did not apply to me and my project (it's not innovative).
But in that additional information I found things that might be beneficial to MWM and thought at least MWM might seek the same information.

To which I was told the money wasn't worth it, even though the possible 50k is, if nothing else, enough for a single developer yearly salary.
Then told that applying for the grant would be taking money from people who really need it, despite 'dream fulfillment' not being a reason a project would be chosen.
Then told it's too early to advertise at the same time MWM is advertising. Not to mention that Tyche's response seems to indicate they intend to wait until release to do any major advertising, which is a marketing mistake.
Then told first impressions will make or break a game even though this is not historically accurate, and frankly already too late to worry about.

Each time someone brought up a point I provided linked information to give evidence to a what I perceive to be a mistake in their thinking. No one was able to provide evidence to support a counter point to my arguments or even just say 'I hadn't considered that'. Keep in mind, the suggestion was not to apply for the grant. It was simply to look into it.

My frustration grew because what I thought would be a simple 'here look at this' post became the forum game of 'find a reason to shoot down a suggestion'. Many of which tried to be superior in the way they did it. Tyche himself tried to blow off the idea of advertising before a games release as a ridiculous idea with his 'And when would advertising be better suited? Now, over a year from when people will be able to access it, or next year?' post. If he had simply said 'We are/will/have looked into it.' I would have no issue. But to dismiss a point as ridiculous when evidence shows otherwise and not even back up the argument with a counter point... well that's just fuel for frustration fires.

I reached my limit when a reply specifically states they are not going to discuss the actual topic but instead nit pick an out of context quote. While that post basically parroted and expanding back the point I was making they did so in a way that made the entire point their own. This is something that happens a lot in my profession and it disgusts me. The company I work for was the victim of corporate espionage and is now seeking restitution, which has made my job exceedingly difficult (sharing information is essential to cancer research and having an increasing number of restrictions on how we share is problematic at best). So when it happens in a friendly forum it touches that special place in my heart I reserve for people who cut me off in traffic and old ladies who block the grocery isles with their motorized scooters. It may not be intentional but it is still immeasurably ignorant (as in lacking knowledge not rude).

For those that don't know, I am a research assistant for a private cancer institute in Canada. My duties are to research and put together presentations in order for our projects to stay current. This means I spend my days reading published work by scientists, industry releases, medical study after medical study and so on in order to understand the information I research.
In addition I have to put together presentations for donors, government officials and even the BoD of the company I work for in order to secure funding. As you might expect these presentations require a different, often less technical slant as the information in them is for those who are not specialists in the field.
And before anyone wonders, no I do not give the actual presentation as my personality and temperament do not suit doing so.

The reason why I explained my job is because it is research, that's what I am good at. When I make an argument it is a good bet that I have looked into the subject to a decent degree and came to my conclusions based on the facts. To be clear, I am not saying I am always right. I am saying that I have facts to back up my points.

So yes. I take my share of responsibility for the toxic in the thread. But I don't stand alone.

EDIT- yes this was a rant.

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/em nods sagely

/em nods sagely

Confusionist Say:
"Man who fart in church, sit in own pew."

/em lotus


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.