Take a look at these videos for a different game.
[youtube]SAYRTgxp2GI[/youtube]
[youtube]pgcTZnv8EgU[/youtube]
Now ... I don't know about anyone else, but to me this looks like a rather novel way to handle a "Gravity Controller" in a way that is much more appropriate for a gap closing melee fighter, as opposed to a City of Heroes styled [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Controller_Control.Gravity_Control]Gravity Controller[/url] who was all about Mez, Knockback and (*ahem*) ... corpse blasting with [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Control.Gravity_Control.Propel]Propel[/url].
The whole ability to "null" gravity (so as to float/fly), "invert" gravity (so as to jump really high), "redirect" gravity (so as to change the direction of "down" away from the typical nadir), "increase" gravity (so as to add power to strike with) and so on just looks really interesting. Add in the destructible environment and the inclusion of "auras" of gravity that can be redirected and stuff has the potential to start getting a little complex.
So ...
Are there any ideas here on display in these videos that INSPIRE possibilities for a Gravity powerset in City of Titans?
Even if Gravity Rush 2 is a mediocre game (I hadn't heard of it before today) with boring gameplay, I'd still be intrigued by the idea of (*ahem*) ... borrowing ... (*cough*) some of the power concepts on display in the above demo videos.
Thoughts?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
When one takes into account that we will probably have fairly free and generous choices when it comes to travel powers, I would find that making some kind of travel power a part of a power set to be a cop out in the vein of, "We couldn't think of anything interesting to put here, so let's throw in a poor man's fly."
There are some potentially interesting ideas in there but, as always, we need to keep in mind that it's one thing to do cool stuff with "X" when "X" is a major feature of that game, or the entire game is dedicated to "X", and quite another to be able to go that far when "X" is one of a dozen (or dozens of) options. 'cause if you make "X" super cool, then all the other options will also need to be super cool.
However, in the vein of throwing gravity control ideas out there, I'll share this video again.
[youtube]ZPozlCvMqlY[/youtube]
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I like these ideas.....
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
Precedents:
Kinetics - [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Kinetics.Siphon_Speed]Siphon Speed[/url]
Kinetics - [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Kinetics.Inertial_Reduction]Inertial Reduction[/url]
Now, if [b]all you get[/b] is an exact copy duplicate of an existing Travel Power ... then yes, it would be redundant. If all you get is a "worse copy" duplicate of an existing Travel Power ... then yes, it's worse than redundant.
But if you get something ELSE that [i]incorporates[/i] the function of a Travel Power [b]plus more[/b] ... it gets a lot harder to justifiably say you're only getting a "poor man's copy" of that Travel Power.
Siphon Speed DID MORE than just Superspeed.
Inertial Reduction DID MORE than just Superleap.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
These look like some interesting powers for a Gravity Control Stalwart/Enforcer. I see movement-based attack powers and not so much 'movement powers'. I also see that the hero is barely controlled in her movements and a strange disassociation with inertia and momentum, which a 'Gravity' power would not do. I also see a Dependence on destructible terrain for some powers/effects.
Mostly, I see a single-player console game character, and not one designed to play in a persistent-world MMO. You get to be 'This Character' with 'These Powers' rather than your own character with powers selected from a menu.
Perhaps another way to discuss Gravity powers is to look at applications? You've got your 'Ambient' gravity, which affects the environment, there's 'Personal' gravity, which affects how you relate to the environment, and 'Target' gravity, where you mess-up the other guy's relationship with the environment.
CoH 'Gravity Control' was all 'Target' centered. It was aggressive, not defensive. That simplified a lot. In fact, the way it was implemented, it did not have to be visualized as strictly 'gravity' control, but could be seen as 'mysterious forces'. Also, whether the User was resistant to gravity effects never became an issue. Is the user strong enough to function while weighing twice their usual weight? Does the user explosively vomit in a micro-gravity environment, or when gravity is variable? Instead, all that had to be considered was the effect on the enemy targets and that, Mostly, just ran the gamut of Controller effects, like immobilize and hold, with some special effects and damage powers thrown in.
I can imagine applying Gravity effects Ambiently and Personally, as well, but let's discuss those as we go on. I'm suddenly feeling the gravity of my bed.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Perhaps we should develop a vocabulary to help define terms and perspectives on things.
First up is STANDARD GRAVITY. This is whatever is "normally" imposed within an environment and usually defines "down" as pointing towards the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir]nadir[/url]. This is the "use a [url=http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plumb+line]plum line[/url]" method of of figuring out which way is "down" and therefore which way local gravity is attracting (usually the ground or the floor).
After that you get ALTERED GRAVITY (obviously), which would be the whole point and purpose of a Gravity Control Powerset. The simplest things to do, game mechanically speaking, would be to:
1. "null" the Standard Gravity ... so as to "float" in zero gravity (momentum, inertia and friction still apply though)
2. "add/multiply" the Standard Gravity ... so as to increase gravity acceleration, resulting in "faster falls"
3. "subtract/divide" the Standard Gravity ... so as to reduce gravity acceleration, resulting in "slower falls" (and higher jumps?)
That just modifies the "strength" of the Gravity vector, which is usually a constant in Standard Gravity. After that, there ought to be options for changing the orientation of the Gravity vector, including such tricks as "up is down" allowing walking on the ceiling (indoors) as well as redirecting gravity to work "sideways" so as to walk on walls without actually Wall Crawling.
The simplest means I can think of to pull off this trick of redirecting gravity using a stock 'n' standard City of Heroes UI element would actually be the Teleport Rings kind of effect so as to define a vector direction to reorient gravity onto for the $Target (which could be Self Only, or could be a VoE of some kind). The placement of the Rings defines a vector direction between the $Target and the Rings, so that "that way" is the new nadir for that $Target. Run the use of the Teleport Rings UI element as a Toggle Power, meaning once you define Gravity as pointing "that-a-way" it continues to do so until you choose to stop doing that (by use of Toggle OFF). Set the recharge time for this toggle to be 1 second (to tamp down on "twitchy" use) and you're set.
Rig the 1/2/3 options mentioned above to work as Toggles ... so you Toggle ON the "add/multiply" Power and it just keeps running until you either Toggle OFF or choose to Toggle ON either "null" or "subtract/divide" Gravity. That way the Toggles are mutually exclusive of each other (toggling on one toggles off the other two automatically, kind of like Kheldian Shapeshifting).
I could [i]easily see[/i] this sort of arrangement being handled much like [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Ranged.Dual_Pistols.Swap_Ammo]Swap Ammo[/url] or the aforementioned Kheldian Shapeshifting (Nova Form, Dwarf Form) where you take 1 Power Pick and receive "multiple Power options" that come as a package deal. So you get a Gravity Manipulation Power and it includes the 1/2/3 Toggles as subsidiary Powers plus the Teleport Rings directional control Power as its component parts and pieces.
This setup then lets you control vector DIRECTION as well as vector STRENGTH (or length, for the mathematically inclined) [b][i]independently[/i][/b] for ALTERED GRAVITY affecting a $Target ... whether that be Self, Ally or Foe. After that, it's just a matter of defining the "shapes" of the ALTERED GRAVITY field:
Self Only
Point Blank Volume of Effect
Cone Volume of Effect
Target Volume of Effect
The "Self Only" option is basically the default in the absence of any of the Volume of Effect options being Clicked ON. The Volumes of Effect would each be their own Power, would all be Clicks, and would also be mutually exclusive of each other. Again, all Clicks would have a 1 second recharge time. For the Target Volume of Effect (Ally, Foe or Location), the difference is purely based on what you are TAB Locked onto at the time. If you have an Ally selected as your $Target, then the ALTERED GRAVITY only affects Allies within the TVoE and is "anchored" to your $Target. If you have a Foe selected as your $Target, then the ALTERED GRAVITY only affects Foes within the TVoE and is "anchored" to your $Target. If you have nothing TAB Locked then you anchor the effect onto the Location your cursor is pointing at ([url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Trick_Arrow.Disruption_Arrow]Disruption Arrow[/url] comes to mind for how to handle this sort of thing).
The Powerset would "do damage" via Falling Damage, with the faster the velocity upon impact, the higher the damage inflicted.
So, Click to choose your VoE type (in the absence of a VoE selection, Self Only is the default). VoE type selection persists until a Gravity Manipulation function is Toggled ON. Click same VoE type again to cancel.
Click to choose your Altered Gravity direction relative to your $Target (using Teleport Rings UI element). Required before Gravity Manipulation function can be Toggled ON.
Toggle ON your chosen Gravity Manipulation function ... "null" or "add/multiply" or "subtract/divide" as needed or desired.
A bit man/machine interface intensive, being something of a three step process of "build your Power use" every time you want to change things, meaning that Gravity Manipulation wouldn't be the "fastest" possible battlefield control ability ... but its ability to "rearrange the battlefield On Demand" would perhaps be unrivaled, since it would effectively almost be Direction Controlled Knockback ON DEMAND in a lot of ways.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
But, the problem I see with applying any sort of 'Altered Gravity' to yourself, is that you are physically affected by that gravity.
Micro-gravity causes bloating and discomfort, although, once you get over that, I understand it can be relaxing. A problem is that it can be difficult to move with any control, and it's easy to injure yourself, since you still have inertia. Also, let's not forget that all gravity works both directions. If you actually reduced your personal gravity=attraction vis-a-vis the Earth, you would immediately be flung into space by centripetal-force. Gravity is a two-way deal.
Gravity higher than 9.8 m/s^2 can cause serious injury, even if you don't fall down and crash into a surface. Using yourself as a missile means that You are subject to Newton's Law, as well. How do you keep from splattering yourself all over the destructible environment?
As for adding a Vector to ambient gravity... that would require that you be able to Generate gravity on your own. All known gravity fields are caused by the presence of mass. Speculative sources say it may/might/should be possible to generate gravity effects through a permutation of Magnetism, but we have no idea how it might work.
City of Heroes never tried to emulate actual gravitic forces, they simply applied control-conditions and hand-waved (Woo-woo-woo, it's Gravity, man!) the effects.
*Now, there is a possibility... one might declare that the Gravity Manipulator establishes and maintains a capsule of stable gravity around themselves and then applies 'altered gravity' effects around/to that capsule. That might keep the effects of 'altered gravity' from affecting them, personally, but that only works for up and down movement. And they still suffer from Inertia effects. *boom-splatter*
So, hit the bad guy with a Forklift and leave my tender corpus out of it.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Alright, now, instead of 'assault' powers, let's talk about 'defensive' ones. I cannot imagine a way to use Gravity as a defense, it's pure attraction between masses, no repulsion. However, Mass is related to size and Density.
Low density wouldn't cause you to fly off into space, because your mass=gravity stays consistent. That is, unless you reduced your density to lighter than air, for instance Helium,which 'floats' in air.
High density has a different problem, that of Sinking. A person-sized object with the density of Lead would be extremely heavy and tend to sink in dirt. One with the density of Osmium, or Uranium, might find itself sinking into Concrete (or just exploding). One with a density approaching Neutronium would perturb the orbit and rotation of the Earth, if it didn't just sink straight to the core.
Wait, but Tractors and other heavy equipment are highly dense and don't sink into the earth... Right, because they spread their weight over large areas, with giant tires, or treads. So, Mister Lead-man could go for a walk in the park, _if_ he wore Snowshoes, or something...
Anyway, controlling one's personal density ought to make one Very hard to hurt. You can 'float like a gas and sting like a mineral'!
Be Well!
Fireheart
From the videos provided, and some of what has been brought up, what I mostly see are things handled mostly by the animation system.
Designing sets for this game you have to avoid being too specific on the outset. You take a concept, like gravity here, and you peel back the layers of the specific concept to it s basic theme. Fire is no longe Fire, it is Burning. The next step is defining the effect and application. Burning Blast has the effect of ranged health damage and is relies heavily on damage over time. Next we plug sets into a frame work which focuses the playstyle of the set. An attack set may be single target focused or are focused just as an example. As such having a wildly alterable set would certainly be a break from the most.
We try to avoid creating too many sets with variable requirements and extra UI elements like multiple toggles. We do intend to use such when thematic, but sparingly so. I can guarantee we won't see any standard set where the attacks change effect based on targeting self, friendly, or hostile. It would actually end up rather detrimental to the effectiveness of the set based n how our power designer results in output. Though it can be used to make a power that can have different effects based on the target type, I would highly recommend any developer using the designer to avoid such. At best you may see an attack that has an effect on the target and on the user and / or friendly targets either in the vicinity of the initial target or the caster.
We wouldn't create a gravity set that actually utilizes the gravity actor and affects vectors differently. That isn't how the power designer works exactly. Instead the effects such as knocks are distinct with the power designer, separate from affecting actors directly, though they may utilize the physics engine (may be required to be kept separate from the power designer too). Yes,me can make a power that does knock up, but give it a toggle to change the effect to knock down. As I said, it is something we are avoiding as much as possible.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Uh ... that's kind of the point?
Purely a costume editor issue. Has nothing to do with game mechanics or the animation and FX of Gravity Powers.
"Normally" ... yes. With Gravity Manipulation ... not necessarily.
If the game environment were a planetary sphere rotating in space ... sure. However, when the game isn't even going to bother with incorporating the curvature of the Earth into its elevation mapping, the point effectively becomes moot at the game mechanical level.
Curious that this question never came up for the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leaping]Leaping Pool[/url]. By the same token, why weren't Fire Tankers and Ice Tankers constantly taking Fire and Cold Damage from the effects of their own Damage Auras, even if they were highly resistant to those damage types?
Short answer: superpowers.
No no no no no. Not "add a vector to Standard Gravity" ... ALTER THE VECTOR of Standard Gravity.
You're not doing this ... [img]http://cdn.mysitemyway.com/etc-mysitemyway/icons/legacy-previews/icons/high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icons-arrows/008743-high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icon-arrows-arrow4-left.png[/img]
... plus this ... [img]http://cdn.mysitemyway.com/etc-mysitemyway/icons/legacy-previews/icons/high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icons-arrows/008742-high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icon-arrows-arrow4-down.png[/img]
... to yield this ... [img]http://cdn.mysitemyway.com/etc-mysitemyway/icons/legacy-previews/icons/high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icons-arrows/008746-high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icon-arrows-arrow4-southwest.png[/img]
Instead you're taking this ... [img]http://cdn.mysitemyway.com/etc-mysitemyway/icons/legacy-previews/icons/high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icons-arrows/008742-high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icon-arrows-arrow4-down.png[/img]
... as the STANDARD GRAVITY and "overwriting" it with this ... [img]http://cdn.mysitemyway.com/etc-mysitemyway/icons/legacy-previews/icons/high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icons-arrows/008743-high-resolution-dark-blue-denim-jeans-icon-arrows-arrow4-left.png[/img]
... to be the ALTERED GRAVITY affecting the $Target. You aren't taking multiple vectors and averaging them together as a Gravity Manipulator. Instead you're taking the existing vectors and directly "editing" them to point in a different direction (and with a different length/strength) at the game mechanical level. So game mechanically you're very directly ALTERING Gravity, which is ordinarily a constant.
Um ... you mean like Fire users create their own Fire, and Cold users create their own Cold and Storm Controllers create their own Storms, and Earth users create their own Earth ... and so on and so forth for every other superpower that generates thematic effects? Should I throw in a mention of Kinetic Melee and Energy Blast for good measure?
Not really seeing the contradiction here ...
All known NATURAL sources of gravity fields are caused by the presence of mass. Superpowers, by definition break a lot of ... rules ... for how things "work" if relying solely on "natural causes" ...
In other words ... Fluff Text™.
Still not relevant to how Gravity Manipulation powers ought to work at the game mechanical level, let alone what kinds of animations and FX ought to pertain to their use.
Exactly.
Game mechanically speaking, "chucking a forklift" using Gravity Manipulation isn't all that different from "throwing cars" using Super Strength. The only real difference is that Gravity Manipulation can be Ranged (no touch required), while Super Strength is Melee Only (requires touch) to hurl the object. In other words, if you allow Super Strength to "tear up the scenery" for missile weapons, there's no reason why you can't allow Gravity Manipulation to do the same thing ... except that with Gravity Manipulation it's "spooky action at a distance" rather than being something done through muscle strength alone.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
;)
The assumption would be that you have enough control to operate in a way akin to Star Trek's inertial dampeners, and counter the force modifier in your local area so as to create whatever gravity field you want for yourself. It's akin to hitting a baseball with a bat without forgetting to maintain your own balance so you don't become the catcher's new best friend.
Maybe "gravity control" isn't that great a name, because it's really more like telekinesis or force beam (tractor/repulsor beam) kind of operation.
Mathematically, it's the same thing. Further, it's easy to apply a delta vector to everything in a target volume and leave the rest of the world alone. It's hard to stick code in that has to go through every moving object in the game and check what its gravity vector should be for where it is.
This probably needs to work with whatever system is in place to handle knockback/up/down, which also deals with external forces applied to moving objects.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
The alternative, of course is to do an IF-THEN-ELSE check of whatever the STANDARD GRAVITY is in the environment, and then apply an inverse of that vector so as to "null" the STANDARD GRAVITY by default as a precursor to "overwriting" it with something else. Then simply apply the ALTERED GRAVITY vector(s) to the affected $Target(s)/Location and pass the popcorn.
Alternatively, as Lin Chiao Feng points out, there is the possibility of leveraging the Knockback system in a way that yields similar results via different means. I would expect this application to be used more for "attack" powers than for "control" powers. Thus a lot of the "force vector attack" powers would use Knockback, while a lot of the "mez" powers would rely on ALTERED GRAVITY to enforce their effects. Note that ALTERED GRAVITY could very likely be a source of Slow/Run/Jump Debuffing, in addition to Immobilize and Hold type effects.
A lot of the Gravity Smash!™ kinds of "vector attack" powers could instead be broadly similar to things like [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Defense.Shield_Defense.Shield_Charge]Shield Charge[/url] for use as a Gap Closer, and I could even see defining a lot of the [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Blaster_Ranged.Energy_Blast]Energy Blast[/url] and [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Blaster_Support.Energy_Manipulation]Energy Manipulation[/url] powersets, with their heavy emphasis on Knockback, as essentially being Gravity Manipulation styled powers. Same too with the [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Scrapper_Melee.Kinetic_Attack]Kinetic Melee[/url] powerset having several ideas incorporated into it which could be [i]proliferated[/i] into a Gravity Manipulation powerset. I'd even go so far as to suggest that [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Blaster_Support.Martial_Manipulation.Ki_Push]Ki Push[/url], [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Blaster_Support.Martial_Manipulation.Storm_Kick]Storm Kick[/url] and [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Blaster_Support.Martial_Manipulation.Burst_of_Speed]Burst of Speed[/url] powers out of the [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Blaster_Support.Martial_Manipulation]Blaster Martial Combat[/url] powerset could be proliferated into a Gravity Manipulation powerset in some form or fashion.
The larger point I'd like to make is that there isn't any Good Reason™ why Gravity can't be used as melee, ranged, or a mixture of both as an assault powerset, in addition to the familiar Controller style set of powers that we remember from City of Heroes. Using Gravity as a Protection Scheme, whether it be Defense/Resistance/etc. might be a bit of a challenge, unless using it as a "keep away" method of PBVoE Knockback (similar to [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Storm_Summoning.Hurricane]HERDicane[/url] in Storm Summoning) or using it as an analog to the "flypaper" strategy used by [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Defense.Ice_Armor.Chilling_Embrace]Chilling Embrace[/url] in Ice Armor to ensure that anything around you has a hard(er) time getting away from you. Basic idea being that the Gravity Defense is either at the "top" of the gravity well around the caster, with everything hostile preferring to "fall away" from them and struggling to get closer, or they're at the "bottom" of the gravity well and everything hostile has to "fight upstream" to get away from them or be pulled closer. Obviously, the "push away" works better for Ranged powersets and the "pull closer" works better for Melee powersets, but that's the basic shape of what synergizes well.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
[youtube]DwN6efmhp7E[/youtube]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
My point about using Your Body as a missile, is that your body impacts the target and, unless your body is made of something very durable, then the 'destructible environment' is YOU. Squishy human goes Squish!
Lin's suggestion of a 'personal kinetic dampening field' would be a good solution. Such a field would also be a powerful defense against physical attacks.
Red seems to be so enamored with the Effects he's envisioning, that he's willing to ignore the sense of 'Gravity does not Work that way!' Still, if we postulate some form of 'encapsulation', which allows us to manipulate Local gravity without affecting the Ambient gravity field of the planet, then that might allow us to do things that are 'indistinguishable from magic'. And we could just as easily call it 'Telekinesis'.
I just want to make sure we all realize that, if we actually change Gravity in a spot, then Everything 'above' that spot is affected too. Atmosphere, airplanes, satellites, moons, planets, stars... everything that depends on the mutual attraction of masses goes 'whoopsie!' if you change Gravity.
That said, I Agree that 'Gravity' would make a terrific power for a Tanker. I think tightly localized gravity effects would be More Powerful at melee range than at a distance. Inverse-Square Law applies, if I recall correctly.
Gravity is all about 'Pull'. The only way to 'push' with it, would be to set up an attractive resonance with a distant object, like Mount Rushmore, or Pluto and have the 'pushed' object Pulled towards that distant object. We can get vertical 'Lift' by neutralizing gravity in a location and letting the Earth's spin hurl the affected object towards space. Selectively, delicately, controlling the strength of gravitic pull between the Earth and an object would allow a sort of pseudo-hover, or actually 'orbiting at a ridiculously low altitude'.
Anyway, if we get selective enough about which rules of science we want to pay attention to, there is no reason not to go the route of CoH and simply choose the Effects we want to apply and then declare that we 'did it with Gravity'. Add some 'field effect' animations and it should be beautiful. That's a particular Point, by the way. 'Gravity Melee' is fighting with Energy Fields, not with the physical impact of fist on face. The required 'personal isolation field' would Prevent physical collision.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Hmm, I don't really see how gravity manipulation as a mechanic would work within MWM's design philosophy for powers, especially considering the separation between mechanics and aesthetics. Effect wise there is nothing truly unique within gravity control so building a mechanics system specifically for it doesn't really make sense when considering the limited resources MWM has, and I'm sure other mechanics that produce the same effects are more efficient execution wise than messing around with gravity.
Sure, you could use actual gravity manipulation mechanics but I just don't see the benefit of doing so at this point.
If he missed the ground it totally was flying.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
As Tannim pointed out, above, it doesn't work as its own power set. Provide the proper animations/effects and some power set could very well be gravity manipulation. It definitely is something that's easier in principle than it is in practice. Coming up with an idea for a power set, or powers for a power set, is easy enough. Creating a power set that is sufficiently versatile/generic that one can slap a dozen different animation sets on it, that's tricky.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
/em slow_clap
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Indeed. In a lot of ways, Gravity Manipulation ought to look a lot like Telekinesis. It is essentially "spooky action at a distance" except when it's done at melee ranges, much like Telekinesis. The tricky part is that gravity, out in the Real World™ is something you don't "see" directly, but can only observe its effects on stuff that you can see (or detect). Stuff "falls" but you don't "see" (visually) something pulling the object(s) towards "down" ... making gravity an "invisible force" as far as visuals go.
As far as the "what are you pulling on?" question goes, that's WAY overthinking things for a game that won't even bother with the curvature of the Earth. I know what you're getting at, Fireheart, but those concerns simply aren't relevant (or helpful) in the context of a game like City of Titans to how the game mechanics "work" under the hood. At best, that's something to put into Fluff Text™ in your Bio, but beyond that it's just not meaningful as far as the game design aspect of it goes.
Why can the Earth Controller make stalagmites shoot up out of the ground? It's not natural!
Because they're an Earth Controller.
Why can the Gravity Controller make stuff "go flying" the way they do? It's not natural!
Because they're a Gravity Controller.
Why doesn't the Shield Defense Tanker stun themselves when they Shield Charge? Third Law of Motion!
Because they're a Shield Defense Tanker.
Why doesn't the Gravity Controller squish themselves when they attack with Gravity Fall? Third Law of Motion!
Because they're a Gravity Controller.
I could keep going, but I think I've proven my point.
Yes, you're absolutely right, that out in the REAL WORLD™ Gravity Manipulation would be an incredibly dangerous thing and highly likely to "squish Mere Mortals.
But in City of Titans, Gravity Manipulation would be a set of superpowers. At that point, a lot of the Real World™ objections stop applying quite so forcefully.
I mean, if we get too hung up on "what's real" in a superheroics game we run into problems with this ...
[img]http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//9/92/DevEarth_Boulder.jpg[/img]
... and figuring out how to breathe air (or deciding whether "rocks" need to breathe air at all), despite the fact that Stone Tankers transformed into this routinely.
In other words, worrying too much about how Game Reality would work in the Real World is a "this way lies madness" endeavor.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
So what kind of Damage effect will this powerset be?
ex: Like how CoT has Burning, Freezing, etc... but the Aesthetic Decoupling animations for Burning can look like: Fire, Acid, Electricity, etc...
So, this one is what? a Crushing damage effect? ...and the Aesthetic Decoupling animations might look like: Gravity, Telekinesis, Sonic Wave, etc...
While it's true that we can suspend our disbelief, especially against stuff that requires knowledge for Newtonian or relativistic physics to even disbelieve in the first place, I think the main point here is that you can code up powers that look like telekinesis or gravity control or magical levitation or high tech ionic hyperdrive belts, or manipulation of the wind, or the magnetic field, etc and at the end of the day the only things that actually exist are the powers themselves, and they'll be grouped into intentionally generic themed sets like "Ranged Burning" and "Melee Stunning" etc. How you justify all the seemingly impossible "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" animations they might have is entirely left up to the players' interpretation, on purpose. Maybe your Fly power is some kind of antigravity thing. Or maybe you're using Super Jump and justifying that via telekinesis for some reason, whatever. When someone else uses that same Fly power theirs is because they can control wind. Whatever.
So the question is not whether or not gravity manipulation could, per se, accomplish one seemingly impossible thing or another, but rather whether or not that power can be coded up and fit nicely into a set or pool or mastery or something that it makes sense in, given the context of the set. I could easily see making a "Knockdown Melee" set where you punch and kick really hard and do knockdown or whatever plus damage. Maybe you want to use gravity manipulation as the backstory for that, fine, works for me. I would also take Fly for the sake of that same theme, but you don't have to.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Maybe we're looking at this from the wrong angle?
City of Heroes' 'Gravity Control' had, in common with other Control powersets, single-target Immobilize and Hold, and AoE Immobilize and Hold. Four of Nine powers. But, Of Course, we're not really worried about the bread and butter. We want to play with the Flashy stuff.
[b]Lift:[/b] Toss your Target into the air and Smash it straight down!
[b]Propel:[/b] Summon a Forklift and Hurl it at your target! - Great for Ranged characters, but in Melee this is probably a good spot for Red's 'Gravity-assisted Body Slam'. This could work similarly to 'Shield Charge'.
[b]Wormhole:[/b] Target a spot, then go find some enemies and teleport them through a hole in space-time into a pile at that spot. For Melee, _I_ think it would work best if the Caster went along for the ride.
[b]Singularity:[/b] The only 'flying' Pet... except Singy only had Hover, so he was horribly slow.
Last, I'll mention [b]Dimension Shift[/b] which might have had some usefulness in the game the Devs originally envisioned. Unfortunately, none of us ever played that game and Dimension Shift and its clones were never popular. Here's an open power-slot, just waiting to be filled with something Brilliant. Perhaps this is for the 'Reach out and Yank your enemy Closer' power?
Be Well!
Fireheart
I have to sadly say, I did like Champions Online [url=https://youtu.be/VVpFDlwHVos?t=6m53s]Quicksand[/url] power, where it would Attract All Nearby foes, closer. ;)
How might 'Gravity Control' fit into the customizable power framework that we've had described to us?
I think the broadest possible description might be 'Crushing Fields'. Forcefields, energy-fields, telekinetic fields... this might even be extended to Plant, Ice, and Stone powers that encapsulate enemies and damage them Physically. This would be in contrast with 'Burning Fields', where the damage is done by Energy. There's also Illusion and Mind Control, which do damage Psionically.
All of these 'Control' powers have Targeted and AoE immobilize and hold powers. Where they differentiate are in the 'specials', the set-exclusive powers. These expand on the theme of controlling and manipulating the opponent through the special properties of the Controller's 'element of power'. Controller powers also include some form of (temporary) Pet. Finally, Controller powers are 'touch free', in that one does not have to touch the opponent, in order to affect them.
Redlynne and I are particularly enamored of the idea of a 'Melee Controller', particularly in the form of the Stalwart/Tanker class, who we see as a demi-Controller anyway. Classically, Melee-fighters have some form of martial skill, with weapons or fists. However, what we've been discussing is the idea of a character with strong defensive abilities, but whose Offensive abilities are through their 'elements' and not dependent on brawn or physical skills. So, rather than manifesting a psionic weapon to stab their enemy, these fighters would look them in the eyes and hurl terrors directly into the minds of their opponents.
Or, in the case of Gravity, Hurl them into the air, Smash them down by giving them several times their normal weight, Pin them in place by making their feet too heavy to lift. One might yank them away from a friendly squishy by changing which part of the planet attracts them most, or one might charge into an enemy group with a prodigious gravity-powered Leap, or by 'surfing' a wave of gravitic force. Surfing a wave of gravitic force could be used to mow-down a cone of enemy, or as a short-range escape-tactic. One might leap into a crowd of enemy, throw down a broad circle of intense Gravity to capture them, then 'Vorp' - hurl oneself and all of one's 'new friends' through a wormhole-portal in space and smash down at a previously placed anchor-point, where your pet Singularity and your whole team are waiting to greet the enemy with all their power.
All this, without risking your manicure by laying a single hand on the filthy beasts.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Wouldn't PBAoE Aura powers, like that, be more appropriate to a Defensive powerset?
Dark Armor, Fire Armor, Electric Armor, Ice Armor, etc etc, all had Toggle Auras that affected enemies. Stone Armor had 'Mud Pots' for that. Alternately, Blaster 'Manipulation' sets had something like that. Fire had 'Hot Feet'.
The 'Quicksand' we had in CoH was, indeed, a Controller power, a ground-targeted AoE trap.
Still, I do appreciate how useful such a power would be to a Melee character.
Be Well!
Fireheart
yep Yep.
Would have been awesome if CoH/V had something akin to a power, in say the Kinetic Melee powerset that instead of repelling like the Repel power in Kinetics (for squishies), it instead was an aura that Attracted enemies like a singularity (black hole). This way i activate it, ehhh.. maybe shouldn't be a toggle, and instead of having to use Taunt, just Attracts any strays trying to run off after the blasters. ;)
I think it bears note that a lot of the controller sets in CoX were very similar in effect and differed more in graphics than anything else.
You basically had powers that would hold, immobilize, slow to the point of stoping, sleep, fear, or stun targets individually and in groups. You had a single pet summon power that had a long recharge time, and you had one or two pretty mediocre attacks (mediocre in terms of DPS I mean, Propel LOOKED awesome, but was outclassed for a long time by other stuff too numerous to mention).
So the challenge then is to find not different skins for the same powers, but in fact different controller sets that actually behave differently enough to make the distinct from each other while also being coherently themed in and of themselves AND being definitively "control" sets in their hearts and souls.
I suppose it;s easy enough to make similar hold powers etc but make them do minor DoT or whatever of different types. So like one set immobilizes the target and does "Burning" damage while the other immobilizes the target and does "Slowing" or "Endo draining" or "defense debuffing" damage or whatever.
We might end up with a single target immobilize attack that is basically the same among controller sets, then all you have to do is pick animations for it, with the choices being block of what looks like ice or stone depending on choice of colors, or some kind of "trapped in a force field" type deal, which could be gravity, telekinesis, magnetic field, or whatever else you want to call it.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Hmm.. i recall that at one point Force Fields (i think*) powerset had a power that repelled all Foes Away from a Targeted Ally. If CoT added such a power, add a way to Toggle between Repel and Attract. ;D
Tanks Will Loooove U! ;)
Squishies will Curse Your Name! >:]
The main problem with Propel was the slow animation time, particularly in comparison to other powers that became available near the same time. Issue 24 saw somw changes for Propel including reducing the animation time and making it into a cone area effect.
Animations being applicable to a broad rNge of sets is what really sets this game apart from others, but I csn tell you from first hand experience, it makes designing sets, and even naming sets, particularly with people whom haven't fully grasped the entire conceptual system, gery difficult. A power set that say, can be used with many knock effects in a variety of vectors, along with some more typical holds and a few other powers that does relies on more kinetic effects (as oppossed to say something like burning) can be ised to look like gravity, telekinesis, wind, vines grabbing and throwing / holding the target, stones blasting them away, thrusting up from the ground, raining down to crush them, and more.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
In City of Heroes terms, I would expect both Gravity and Telekinesis oriented "spooky action at a distance" powers to inflict Smashing Damage.
A quick perusal of [url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/powerset.php?id=Controller_Control.Gravity_Control]Gravity Control[/url] yields the following Damage types:
Crush: Smashing
Lift: Smashing
Gravity Distortion: Smashing
Propel: Smashing
Crushing Field: Smashing
Dimension Shift: [b][i]Frustration[/i][/b]
Gravity Distortion Field: No Damage
Wormhole: No Damage
Singularity: Smashing, Smashing and Smashing (plus Repel Aura)
I always interpreted City of Heroes' Smashing Damage as being bludgeoning/blunt force applications, while Lethal Damage was done by slashing/piercing applications. That's why Martial Arts and Staff Melee and Super Strength do Smashing Damage while Broadsword and Katana and Dual Blades do Lethal Damage.
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Control.Mind_Control.Levitate]Levitate[/url] from Mind Control did Smashing Damage and loads of KnockUP.
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Buff.Storm_Summoning.Gale]Gale[/url] from Storm Summoning did (token amounts) of Smashing Damage with lots of Knockback.
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Buff.Force_Field.Force_Bolt]Force Bolt[/url] from Force Fields did Smashing Damage with TONS of Knockback.
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Controller_Buff.Force_Field.Repulsion_Bomb]Repulsion Bomb[/url] in Force Fields did Smashing Damage plus Knockdown.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Tannim, if you're looking for the broadest possible descriptor covering all of these myriad possibilities ... Gravity, Telekinesis, Wind, "Force" Fields (with or without John Williams soundtrack), etc. ... you're essentially looking at [b]Kinetic Forces[/b] as the unifying field theory for how all of them work under the hood in game mechanical terms. The lowest common denominator is that all of these power types involve "shoving things around" ... regardless of HOW they go about doing it. Those things getting shoved around can be anything from people to bits of the environment that can be used as opportunity weapons for missile attacks (i.e. throwing cars, manhole covers, boulders, library books(helves (loaded with books)), etc.). The key thing that unifies all of these disparate power types is either MOVING THINGS ... or IMPAIRING their movement capacity ... which in Physics 301 terms means applying Force(s) to those objects in a kinetic way to produce movement and momentum (as opposed to just disintegration).
You can then further differentiate things into Attacks, Controls and Protections ... and divide even those categories into subgroups of Melee or Ranged, with the addtional qualifier of being either Single Target or Volume of Effect (of which there is more than one variety).
What say you, Tannim?
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Mmm, [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Force_Field]Force Fields[/url] had a PBAoE Repel toggle and a Targeted AoE 'Repulsion Bomb'... Sounds like a love-hate power. It might save your butt, or drive you crazy. Probably drives Scrappers nuts, even if it Does save their butts. *grin*
Be Well!
Fireheart
Didn't see anyone mention it we are talking gravity based powers why not increase the foes personal gravity? By this I am calling on one of Newton's laws witch states that every object pulls on every other object. Therefore, if you can crank up someones gravity it would be like standing in the center of the black hole with everything near by being attracted to you. This could also work for electrical powers as they could turn there foes into electromagnets like Static douse.
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Kinetics.Repel]Repel[/url] (Kinetics)
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Force_Field.Repulsion_Field]Repulsion Field[/url] (Force Field)
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Force_Field.Repulsion_Bomb]Repulsion Bomb[/url] (Force Field)
[url=https://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Defender_Buff.Force_Field.Force_Bubble]Force Bubble[/url] (Force Field)
The City of Heroes game engine could only repel/push away.
I believe that the City of Titans game engine ought to be able to repel/push away as well as attract/draw closer.
Also, not everything needs to work on a Knockdown/back/up basis, necessarily. Being able to exert Slow effects could also be very meaningful to battlefield control efforts.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Repulsion Boms started out as a "Target ally, AoE repel effect happens on ally" power, with two problems. Firstly, it had a dreadfully slow animation, which is just not compatible with a "GO AWAY!" power. You need that to come out immediately, like Force Bolt did. And secondly, an AoE repel that you don't expect is kind of confusing.
It later got turned into a simple AoE attack with knockback. I had it on my character since then.
Repulsion FIELD on the other hand... I never found any use for. Is it supposed to keep me safe? Force Bolt does that better. Is it supposed to be used to herd enemies? It just draws aggro to the squishiest member of the team. I mean, Hurricane did something similar but had a huge ToHit debuff, which made it awesome.
Force Bubble had its moments, it was the king of the BAF trial, only the repel-immune enemies could get through, the rest got blocked. So, the AoE people had a clump of juicy targets, and the single target people could easily see the priority targets as they'd run straight through.
I kind of want a Force Bolt and Force Bubble expy in the powers. Although, I would love it if Force Bubble became Force Wall, making an impassable to enemies wall that can be placed in the world.
This is an example of something that could be done in a game just fine, but is actually not a physically accurate description of what would happen. (see suspension of disbelief above, and fo rthe record I'm not saying "so we can't do it because it's not accurate" I'm saying "we could do this, but it's a bit of a hand-wavy excuse for the power) Newton's Third Law stipulates that the force of one object on another (any kind of force, gravitational ones included) is always equal and opposite tot he force of the second object back on the first.
For example, the Earth exerts exactly as much gravitational force on the moon as the moon does on the Earth. YOU exert exactly as much gravitation force on the Earth as the Earth does on you. The force of my fist hitting a brick wall is exactly the same as the force of the brick wall back on my fist, etc.
Anyway, the power set would likely not be called "Gravity" or anything like it, it would probably be called something more generic like "shoving stuff around using invisible forces" or as some have suggested, "Kinetics" or something like that. How you justify the actual power itself is completely open to interpretation. The only real question is how do you want the power set to work and does the power fit into that framework or not?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising