Back in the day I used to rant and rave (go figure) on the CoH forums about the disparity of the IO recipes. Some were literally worthless while some so expensive as to rate concern. One of the many comments made during those discussions was that 'there always has to be some junk drops.' I asked why and never received a straight answer...like in-game drops theories were taught at some shadowy business college or something.
Now I can understand that some drops will be more desirable than others. Hell, I like whole wheat better than I like white bread. That doesn't make white bread worthless if you get my drift.
So now the question on my mind is How do we make ALL the drops worth SOMETHING? Can we actually design a crafting system in such a way that everything has some sort of value rather than being just vendor junk? I ask the community because I'm not a game designer or a crafting expert but I'd really like to get this ironed out if we could.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Price, some people don't like to work harder for better lets say, enhancements. You can't really have an economy if there's no supply and demand, value of objects change based on the quality of things around it. For example, you have the best enhancements, then the game gets an expansion, new level cap, suddenly the enhancements of the best quality 5 levels above you become the best, yours go down in value as a result, supply and demand, how rare things are compared to others, more desirable things tend to be more rare because more people want them and you have more people to compete with, demand goes up, supply goes down, price goes up as a result. It's all relative.
Sometimes it's nice to go with the cheaper, easier to obtain options for the sake of progressing through the game, it's all a matter of player preference. But if everything is worth the same, then that technically would mean the only variety you have is only very very basic, not much in the way of driving interest.
Plus you gotta look at it this way with you bread analogy. Sure, you can have whole wheat, probably get the cheap off brand kind to save money. But what if you want, lets say, fresh baked bread, made from scratch at a local bakery? Obviously that's gonna cost more, because they're using choice ingredients, it's got better flavor, it's fresh out of the oven, it doesn't have things like art artificial ingredients and stuff like that. But obviously it's not as plentiful as the grocery store stuff either.
Is it worth it to you to get the higher quality bread?
It's good to have budget gear. Not awful, but something that can let new players get a taste for the crafting and gear without having to spend currency that they simply don't have at that point.
That said, I'd like to see that there's not "best" gear, but rather several variants of good that you can use depending on how you want to specialize your character. CoH did a little like this, but there were some sets with a definite "best" choice, like the Luck of the Gambler recharge and the +Ed healing ones. Everyone, bar a few select builds, wanted those. That's a problem. But CoH got closer than most games i've played, so build on diversifying the powerful stuff while having some cheaper less powerful stuff for newbies to learn the tricks of the trade with.
Let's just look at the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Invention_Sets#Ranged_Damage]Ranged Damage[/url] Invention Sets as an example of Poor Itemization Design.
Discounting the Purple and PvP Sets, that leaves:
Far Strike
Salvo
Volley Fire
Tempest
Maelstrom's Fury
Entropic Chaos
Ruin
Decimation
Thunderstrike
Devastation
Of those Sets, I (personally) only ever found the Entropic Chaos, Decimation and Thunderstrike Sets to be worth completing in their entirety. Devastation I never used as more than 2 pieces of, and even then only because of the Hold Proc and as an easy way to get some extra Regeneration bonus out of the 2-slot option. I once found myself using (of all things) Ruin ... if you can believe it ... in my MA/SR/Dark Builds for Redlynne simply because I needed just a little bit more AoE Defense, and Ruin was the only place I could get it in 5 slots ... and I felt like using the Ruin Set was just a total rip-off because the rest of the set bonuses were just useless and hated it.
So out of 10 Sets ... I considered roughly two-thirds (ie. 6.5 Sets) of them to be utter trash to be vendored or auctioned off with contempt. And that's when I was playing a Scrapper, a Tanker, a Warshade, a Peacebringer, two Controllers, two Defenders, a Stalker, two Masterminds and an Arachnos Soldier ... so it's not as if I didn't have a wide range of needs for Ranged Damage Sets to fill various needs.
Pretty much the same situation occured with [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Invention_Sets#Targeted_AoE_Damage]Target AoE Damage[/url] Sets, where the only Set worth completing was Positron's Blast. Everything else was garbage in comparison. Once again ... one good Set for every two bad Sets.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
All depends as to what level you actually want to play at...
Some recepies were good for frankenslotting, others were better for mid level play, others were good for exemping, and then you had some at the very top end level builds, where you were "pimped to the 9's"
I think we just need to look at CO for what happens when there is best gear. They nerf it so people will use other gear. :p Let's make all mods equal!
I kinda like what coh did with the difficulty system, where you get more influence and xp for making the game harder for yourself, it allowed you to afford single origin enhancements. If all the gear and enhancements or w/e are the same, then why bother challenging yourself when making the game easy mode is just as rewarding?
best gear is good. But requiring lottery win to get one or lottery win to get enough influence to get it is not so good. There shouldn't have been instances where two players doing the same amount of work and one walk away with cheap stale bread loaves and the other walk away with basket full of hand made fresh bread.
If two people do work that warrant the hand made fresh bread, then they both should get the product. Instead of one lucky get the good stuff and another gets the crap all the time aka one gets rewarded for their game play with it gift dropping for them the other basically slapped in the face for their work and have to do dozen of other things just to get one loaf.
That is akin to one person into a bread store and both put up ten dollars. One get handed the good bread loaves the other gets the crappy bread or demanded they pay many times over just to get a slice. In RL that would be a lawsuit waiting to happen.
You were selling off Contempt on the market? Rats, I wish I had known. I needed just 3 more Contempts to complete that purple "Disdain of the Gods" set! :-)
Spurn all ye kindle.
But it's also a system that gets people going "I must run again!" And since it was completely random, anyone could get it, as CoH didn't really have much in the ways of limited enhancement drop at completion. It had, defeat enemies get a chance to have this enhancement drop.
You guys are forgetting about the wonders of an auction house system. Dang, I couldn't get the rare drop I wanted in this area of this mob, but I got a lot of influence trying. Oh look, some guy is selling it for a reasonable price, hot dog!
Just you know, don't let the auction house go Korean mmo on you by having impossibly low drop rates on everything XD
It seems to me that the best way to handle the question of desirable and undesirable drops, is to not have 'gear' drop at all. Let all drops be materials that can be crafted/traded for the desired items.
Second best idea might be to have any and all 'gear' drops be 'deconstractable' in some consistent fashion, to produce materials, which can then be converted into desirable items.
Another idea might be to have NPCs that will trade certain items for other items, or perhaps trade items for 'tokens' (or currency) which can be collected and used to purchase desired items.
This gets 'junk' items out of the system and converts them to Equivalent Value of non-junk items.
Perhaps there are NPCs that will 'recycle' stacks of materials in exchange for better materials? I could totally envision fighting dozens of 'gang-bangers', collecting stacks of their guns, and turning them in at the police station for 'kudos', or a pass to a higher quality vendor.
I agree, there should be Something creative that we can do with under-appreciated stuff, besides just vendoring it.
Be Well!
Fireheart
i don't care for gear as a means to making ur toon better
the best part of CoH was there was no gear to earn achieve or go broke to have and look like everyone else at the same level.
making ur powers better i still like that as the way to go for CoT .
every single fantasy game even sci-fi games are based off final level gear and ur no good till u can have that gear, to me makes me not want to make more toons or even really focus on one toon till i have every piece of gear
You realize Enhancements was CoH's version of gear, right? How do people not see that? Enhancements did what gear does. The difference was, ehancements didn't change your appearance.
Mind you, this is from the IO standpoint, not the generic SOs that anyone could get just by walking up to a vendor, and it was those IOs that really helped improve the game and made it a much better game (sadly a lot of the damage was done before they introduced the IOs).
I like the whole 'drop components and not gear' thing but what about recipes? Or is everyone just able to craft everything if they have the components?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
In other words, a "some assembly required" Loot System, which will then require a system of Inventory Management (so long as it doesn't involve Diablo I and II's system of Let's Play Tetris with your Inventory window).
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
To a certain extent, yes, enhancies were "gear". BUT it was customizable gear, in the sense that you could CRAFT what you wanted, not just grind endlessly to obtain that one desirable piece.
As for undesirable or "junk" recipes, I actually found use for them occasionally.
When CoH implemented alternate builds, I would create an "exemp" build. This build used those low level sets specifically for those times when I was exemping with my lowbie friends.
When they gave us a third build option, I made it my "uber" incarnate build.
I cannot tell you how many endless hours I spent in Mids working these builds out, then even more endless hours in game acquiring the necessary bits for them.
It was part of my fun.
Well, I like the idea that Recipes would be relatively easy to acquire. You might have to do a little research, or a little More research if the recipe was obscure, but "Google", or a visit to the local Super-Database should net you any and all common recipes. And once you have acquired a recipe, it should be Trivial to repeat it.
It might not be trivial to assemble the item in question, but the Recipe shouldn't be hard to copy. I do think it should be relatively straightforward to craft just what you want, with a recipe and the right components. Alternately, or for those who do not want to invest in Crafting, there could be NPC Crafters who will make what you want in exchange for some mix of materials and cash. One might have "Joe's Heroic Crafting Shop" as a Faction, which a hero could earn points with, and unlock access to extra stuff.
Or, perhaps a Player could set up a 'virtual shop' through the Market and craft items to order. One could search for the desired item on the Market, select 'Crafters' and view a list of offers for crafting that item. Select the deal you like, send in the required components, whether parts or straight cash or whatever, and make the exchange. Bam, you walk out with your shiny new gadget.
I'd make an exception on the 'easy access to Recipes' theme for 'purples', though. Super-rare or unique items ought to be more difficult to acquire. Maybe you'd have to purchase them, using some sort of 'super-tokens'... Maybe those 'purples' would be on the drop tables for high-end missions.
That's another feature I'd like to see, a Choice in final rewards for some missions. So you're not 'stuck' with a pile of things that you can't use. 'Random Reward' implies that you might, just possibly, if you win the lottery, get something really nice, but most of the time you get... junk. Or a sixth pair of those crazy/cool shoes that you can't give away.
Be Well!
Fireheart
well probably some people. For many, especially after crap drop after crap drop after crap drop while others keep getting the good stuff left and right. AKA barely a mission goes by without that same guy saying "hey got another purple" and in the inventory the highlight is another common and uncommon worthless item for the umpteenth time. Random can be good but when it's all random, it leaves a lot of those that are not hiding a rabbit foot out and then it can become very unfun, especially for those that don't find much fun in gambling to begin with. Which can leave them feeling instead of "Must run it again" to "I put in the hours, the time, and yet, not being rewarded for it. It sucks." And given that good gear prices outpaced the reward level inf drop rate, that means that one person is instant billionaire while another that put in the same amount of work and time and gameplay have to farm and grind for hours more just to hope to have enough to buy it on the market to further enrich those that are already lucky, who by now went on to do other activities while the unlucky person is stuck basically having to farm just to be able to afford one. AKA basically being having to play a part of the game they may not enjoy for even longer than many of those that do enjoy farming or marketing. It's easy to make billions when one have a valuable item or multiple valuable items to sale and make billions off of but someone that is constantly pissed on by the drop rates have to farm which even many market people do not find fun.
There should be set rewards especially I nthe end. If people do the same tasks, and there is apurple drops then everyone should get one for their work not only the select few over and over and leaving some people with more purple drops then they know what to do with and while others never even seen a pruple drop ever even though they put in just as much and in many cases more work and more into farming, an activity they may not enjoy, just to try and get one or gain money to buy one. AKA reward players for their work not reward some and crap and piss on the others as if their money and time they put into the game is not wanted. Kind of like how people felt pissed on when NCSOFT dropped COX after the money people put into it over the years. Hardly anyone seem to notice that many people who don't have rabbit foot feel the same way when they are not properly rewarded for their work just as muc had the next guy and people keep saying :Well put in the work and you can have this too." when they actually do and still get the crappy drops kicked and spit on as if they are merely worthless customers and their money they put into the game go to support and make QOL improvements for those select few while they are not even considered at all even when they put in just as much time money and even time into farming even when they don't enjoy it waiting for that drop that never comes while that same person keep getting purples and looking down their nose as don't with the false assumption they are lazy, don't want to learn the system, and don't play as much. Total disrespect, especially when most put in even more than those that get the luck drops that come and go and maybe put in their subscription here and there. They are part of the community too and should be treated with equality and shouldn't be punished because they are not carrying a rabbit foot especially if they are putting in the same amount or more of time money and work into it.
COX could have been even more populated instead of decreasing population over the time. Many people left after they got tired of seeing the same people get the good stuff over and over and then talking down to everyone else as if they are lazxy customers that don't support the game as much as them when in reality the luck based system is something the unlucky had no control over and seemingly favored a relative few. Some people can take being unlucky for a while but then being talked down to by those that the rng seemed to constantly favor, adding salt to the wound as if they are third class community members and constantly being ignored in favor of the lucky few while their contribution to keeping the game alive and supporting the game went unthanked in the reward sector, then for some that was too much. And even more are not willing to go through that agin even thoug hthey stuck out with COX until the end. If people put in the work, everyone should get something desirable for their efforts and not some lucky that look theirdown their nose at the rest get the good stuff while everyone else gets constant crap stuff that is barely worth selling to a vendor. A player that been there since beta should not have ever had the problem of never seeing a purple drop. Nor should someone even that started in i4 or even i7 should have never had the luck of never seeing a purple drop while getting dissed as "Well you don't play enough, or put in enough time, or farm enough" when they HAD to farm just to afford any sort for decent gear while those that actually had easy street but act like they did "hard work" is those that get constant purples and able to make billions and brag they made billion in a day or a week and have the audacity to think everyone that dont is lazy and just don't know how to play the market and cant think beyond their own stuff and remember those that wasn't lucky to get the good drops that put in probably more work than they did and still cant afford to get their foot into the door of even some of the lower to mid level red drops due to the prices.
The original post reminds me of something I've read before in the Magic: the Gathering site....
found the link:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/218
In this article, head designer Mark Rosewater talks about why they (Wizards of the Coast) continue to print "bad" rares (on purpose). Basically, the argument goes something like this:
1. The existence of more than one option that could fill a given game-space means that there will always be better options and worse options. In other words, if more than one option exists, then the options at hand are going to get compared to each other. These comparisons will lead to conclusions being drawn about how efficient each option is, and a "winner" will naturally emerge. All things not as efficient as the winner are defined as bad. Thus there's no avoiding "bad" options if there's more than one option to begin with.
2. More bad options doesn't break anything and only adds to the chaff you have to sift through to get to the wheat, which is part of the fun. The good stuff being hidden is like an Easter Egg hunt. If they just handed out the Easter Eggs, the eggs would still get eaten, but the game "Easter Egg Hunt" would totally suck. People like exploring for better options. If every toon came level 50 and preloaded with all the best swag, people wouldn't play as much, and wouldn't enjoy it as much when they got swag drops of any kind. The proliferation of "bad" recipe drops is what makes the "good" ones feel so good when you get them.
3. Optimizing your toon is supposed to be a mental challenge, not a no-brainer.
4. It's not supposed to be the dev's job to do all of the work for you in 3. above, that's YOUR job. It's THIER job to make it in interesting intellectual exercize .
5. It's more fun when you have to improvise or temporarily settle for less than 100% most efficient build due to xp, money, infl, etc. It gives us something to look forward to, and thus to keep playing for.
6. It makes it feel so much more fulfilling when you do get there this way.
7. It gives bad players something outside themselves to lay blame on. I.E. "I didn't just get owned, I just had the wrong gear for this fight... I'll be back!"
While it's true that not everything Rosewater says in the article I linked (or the ones he referred to in that article) applies to MMOs, the basic argument remains. It's supposed to be a game puzzle to figure out your build and it's supposed to be a happy rare occurrence when you get swag you really want or which you can sell for a lot of influence or whatever. If EVERY bad guy dropped the good stuff, it would get really old really fast, and it would water down that swag to the point where it would be like "So what, that's the 50th one of those I have now, sure everyone needs them, but everyone HAS 50 extras too....yawn".
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I actually enjoyed those articles... (I read all 3 of them), and having been a player of Magic when the 1st article came out (back in 2002) I recognise a lot of the arguments, and that a good card for me was a bad card for someone else....
And yes, I was a deck that *relied* on [url=http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=206331]Ornthicopter[/url] at one point... back in 1995 (Ice Age cycle) to even work.
And boy did it work well.
But for 90% of the people out there, they hated the card, so it was easy for me to trade for it. And Necropotence, I was the only person in my area who had a deck that used it... others shied away from it.
Long story short: The drop might not be for you, it could well be designed for another person (anyone want my pacing of the turtle IO recipe?)
True. But also keep in mind, when some people keep getting handed the eggs and other participant keep getting rotten egss, that also ruin the funs.
The "So what, that's the 50th one of those I have now, sure everyone needs them, but everyone HAS 50 extras too....yawn" thins also applies to how people feel when they get their 50th pacing the turtle or other useless and or non-valuable recipe for the 50th time, while the team mate keeps getting the golden eggs.
Sure shifting through the chaff can be fun, but shifting through chaff again and again and again and getting crap over and over and over while some lucky few don't have to do barely any sort of shifting, isn't so fun. Especially when they run around like they did actual work to get their fortune when in reality, it was gift dropped for them while others that did ten to hundred times more got nothing to show for it.
And then when one do get that recipe good stuff finally it can be fulfilling but that statement also dismiss everyone who never got that good drop or purple recipe no matter how much shifting through the chaff they did which in the end is not fun, but actually feels like a rip off and cheated, or rather unfulfilling. Then after a while those tha tstay see no point in doing the content because they haven't gotten rewarded for it and some figure they wont get rewarded for it and end up simply farming just to get some inf. even though they don't enjoy it, which then when they do save up, it's less fulfilling because it's not like the enjoyed the journey getting there like those that get regular drops and of course love the easter egg hunt. But with the luck based thing, it's nothing like an easter egg hunt and more like, "you all did fought hard and well. You and you get the good stuff. The rest bugger off you are worthless and have fun watching others get rewarded and be thankful for your crap drop that no one wants."
The one thing I always liked about trying to figure out the "good" cards from the "bad" cards in MtG was the idea that when new expansions were added to the game there would be times when a previously "bad" card could instantly become a "good" card when it was paired up in a combo with newer cards. It didn't happen very often, but it certainly made you have to reassess the "state of the game" every time a new expansion hit.
I have no idea if CoT could replicate that kind of churning effect, but it would be cool if certain enhancements could be combined to produce different effects as time goes on. This might shuffle around which enhancements are considered good or bad as the game evolves.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
part of the problem was the lower level sets were not worth making because you out leveled them so fast. a set that lasted from level 10 to 20 might last an experienced player maybe 3 hours of play...and then be a detriment. the time and money to make it just wasnt worth it.
Not only that, one didn't really need IO sets at that level. With CoH, I used level 33 and the Universal (IOs that gave bonuses no matter what level you exempt to) and did great and I ran the lower than level 30 (so lost my level 33 IO's bonuses) all the time.
yes i understand that enhancements are like gear, and i am good with that, its the visual aspect of gear i am against for CoT.
as most are players of CoH we can all understand the enhancement aspect of the game .
i'm just not wanting a costume gear aspect
And why? If they had their Boosts which are basically Enhancements, but made the icon look like a boot, glove, chest armor, but were slotted into powers the same way as CoH enhancements, would it really be any different just because it looks like gear instead of a circle with a symbol?
I think what graff is saying is that he doesn't want the "enhancement" to alter the way his costume looks when he slots the "enhancement" into his powers.
I feel like this might be worth reading when thinking of gear. The other Magic article reminded me of this one:
Timmy, Johnny, and Spike.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b
It's about the internal player profiles they use and make sure to have cards for each type.
To sum up.
Timmy is the power gamer. He loves big numbers and sheer power. So when you see an expensive powerful creature, like a huge dragon, it's a Timmy card. Fairly simple.
Johnny is the thinker. He wants tricky setups and unusual combos. He doesn't mind losing much, but when he wins, he won his way, pulling off some shenanigans that he thought up himself. Cards for johnny are those that have odd effects that don't seem too powerful on their own, but if comboed just right... BOOM!
Finally, Spike. Spike plays to win. Doesn't really matter how he wins or if he's being unique, as long as he's wining, Spike is happy. Spike cards are the cards that come out powerful. Doesn't need to be big numbers, but as long as they help him win, he wants them.
And, well, can't argue with results here. Magic has been very, very successful doing its thing. And it's pretty much a fully loot based game.
So, don't think it as much as "weak" gear. Think Johnny gear. Remember the buzzsaw attack with all the procs in one attack in CoH? Totally a Johnny move. Spike is running 5 Luck of he Gamblers, and Timmy is piling on the +Damage bonuses, maybe slotting for knockback for extra awesome. And they're all happy with what they've got.
I thought we said it wouldn't change the appearance of the characters costumes. It was just that, like CO, the enhancements would look like typical gear instead of circles with emblems on them.
I really liked enhancing the powers rather than the clothing. It was part of what made COH unique and awesome. It allowed some of the coolest character building ever in an mmo
I never really paid attention to the "shape" or "name" of the enhancement. Tghe only thing that really concerned me about them was the color (ie. what aspect of the power it affected). The enhancement could have been called the Tutu of Taunting, and I would have used it to enhance my taunts. Just as long as it didn't put my character, that wasn't supposed to be in a tutu, in a tutu. But, that's me.
I probably misunderstood the direction the conversation was going.
This would need to be expanded/refined/explored a bit, but it's a good start. I like it.
Regards,
D. A. Cross
CEO of Phoenix Rising
CoX: @Mystic Cross ; @Pareidolia // CO: @Deadman-X ; @Citymystic // CoT: @Cross ; @D.A.Cross
this is what i mean very well put
"I really liked enhancing the powers rather than the clothing. It was part of what made COH unique and awesome. It allowed some of the coolest character building ever in an mmo"
i like the idea of the powers being what we play around with, the gear enhancements change what our looks are , so keep it to powers please not gear
I like the idea of taking apart "gear" you don't like, and a recipe system It makes it feel like your constantly tinkering/inventing/enchanting/studying things to enhance your powers. It has a decent amount of flavor to it, and I think it would be a good basis for the system. As for the idea of Timmy, Spike, and Johnnies, well that makes perfect sense, and perhaps that is how the recipe's could be designed around. It could allow for some very unique character designs, and nifty flavor for them.
I also am against gear that effects the way our toons will look, it's one of the things that really annoys me about most MMO's. Everyone ends up looking the same and it seems there is always a definitive "best" gear set. What if we had several "Best" gear sets, allow for diversity and unique development. Something I liked about CoH was that you could find recipe's for costume pieces, that was genius to me, and I hope it will be a part of CoT. So I suppose that's my two cents.
"We lost our home, but not our spirit"
One thing I used to do in CoH was just use SOs and so forth until level 50-ish, then switch over to IOs and Hamios after that. The fact that some "good" sets capped off at level 40 bothered me sometimes. I think CoT should design its invention system with that picture in mind. Most people aren't going to want to blow a large sum of Infl one stuff they're going to outlevel. So I agree with whomever said they should just skip the low-level IO idea. IOs would be better if they just kick in at/near the level cap.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
As an example, in CoX, i *tried* to just level up, slotting with what dropped, and nothing else. Not even going to the store.
It was *hard*. It took a long time for the right drops to fall, so that I could use them. I did this to actually save inf, selling what I had (on WW, or just vendoring). It was something I wouldn't want to do again.
Now, on the flip side, I did the same thing in WoW with *NO* problems. I managed to level up through the game, just using what dropped, quest rewards. Never had to buy anything from NPC vendors (although I sold a lot of stuff through them).
I actually spent more time *playing* the game.
I was doing this just to see what it was like. And between the two games, WoW provided the far better experience, because you knew that although you could craft stuff that was better than some drops/mission rewards, it gave you a base line to run with (in terms of gear that you should be using at that level(ish) )
Was there better gear available in WoW for you at that level? Most definitely, although it *wasn't* needed for general content.
I never had trouble setting up with TOs or SOs. The 'problem' with beginning-level IOs is that they were terribly weak. Towards the end, I was creating ALL 'Magic' origin characters, so I could load SOs from Yin's store at level 10.
My hope is that we will not have this issue with 'Boosts'. There will be One 'schedule', one type of 'Boosts' and they will be craftable.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I had several toons that loved the "junk" sets for frankenslotting or for level up builds. There were a few others that surprised me by effectively leveraging those undesirable set bonii. Then there were hidden gems like the Sleep:chance for self heal proc in Frozen Aura on my ice tank. My icey footstomp of "oh thanks for that 90+ hp everytime I spam my pbasoe".
Repeat Offender
Tank Addict
Homeless.
Yeah, it would be cool to be able to slot in those extra effects, either as a set-bonus, or just straight in as an effect. Perhaps as an extra effect built into a multi-aspect Boost?
Be Well!
Fireheart
One of my beefs with enhancements was the Origin division. Personally, I thought a character's Origin shouldn't have had anything to do with the game mechanics. Just the character's story, and possibly contacts. There should have been one (three could have worked) set of enhancements split into the various power effects, instead of twelve sets (TOs, 5 DOs, 5SOs, and IOs).
I didn't use TOs. I used DOs when I got to level 12, then used IOs when I got to level 22. I'd slot my powers with level 25 IOs and then change them out when I got to level 50. The difference between the level 25 IOs and SOs was negligible.
I waited until level 27 where I slotted lvl 30 IOs but basically the same thing. When I was approaching the 40s I'd start shopping on the AH, buying and crafting stuff then putting it on the shelf.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I found that it was more effective, on a value basis, to stay with TOs until I hit 12 while socking away as much salvage as I could get, then do the University at 12 to get the free level-15 Accuracy IO (Luck Charms most often being the limited resource), and completely switch to common IOs, because they gave a better bonus than DOs. Then, at 22, when SOs became available, I would switch to them, respeccing to recover as many of the Accuracy and Damage IOs as I could to put up on the AH, because IO values fell behind SOs at that point (and selling back the excess IOs recovered some of the inf I'd invested making them). I would stick with SOs, once more collecting salvage, until I hit 32 and could reslot with 35 common IOs, which gave a better bonus than +1 SOs at that level, and continued slotting common IOs until around 47, when I could cap out the level of the set IOs I could slot, and would from there start accumulating set IOs -- not necessarily 50; a level or two down was only a couple of percentage points difference in bonus, and were almost always [b]much[/b] cheaper.
I would also delay upgrading from level-25 to level-30 SOs until 28, at which point I could try to merge the 30s into the 25s, and get a fair number of 30+ enhancements out of the deal, and if I had a spare respec, would do it at 32 just to get the sellback cost of the SOs to support my purchases.
I think that with CoX problem was that although there was better available, you were basically *forced* to spend influence on normal enhancements because once you outlevelled them, they gave you *no* benefit at all (even if you exemped down I believe).
Unlike most (if not all) "gear based" MMO's, where although stuff might have had a *minimum* level to use them, they rarely (if ever) "stopped working" for you. They still gave you a bonus, 10+ level down the line. Was it as good as you could use at that point in time? More often than not, nope, it wasn't. But it *still* gave you a bonus. Hell, there have been times in WoW where I kept the same trinket for 20+ levels (it gave me a stamina bonus, and the replacements that dropped were not suitable for me).
But IO Enhancements didn't have that problem. So the 'problem' is with the TO/DO/SO system. CoT does not have to replicate that, but can go straight to the IO system of craftable Boosts.
Be Well!
Fireheart
It doesn't even have to be limited to "craftable" stuff.
It should (in my mind) be applicable to 99% of all stuff; I can see "starter kit" having an upper limit, but it should be fairly quickly replaced, but even boosts/enhancements that drop shouldn't just stop working because you had it for 8 levels.
Okay, so a single 'schedule' and 'class' of Boost? Hmm, what about 'quality'? If you built a basic item with higher-order materials, would the result give a small additional enhancement? Would some type of Craftsmanship or material variation be the key to multi-aspect Boosts? Perhaps a basic recipe calls for a smaller number of materials, but a more effective recipe has space for more different materials?
I keep having this vision of a... pie...
[URL=http://s105.photobucket.com/user/fireheart5150/media/Stuff/TrivialPursuitPie_zps9a947cd5.jpg.html][IMG]http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m207/fireheart5150/Stuff/th_TrivialPursuitPie_zps9a947cd5.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
...and then you slot the proper parts into it and click 'bake'... and out pops your completed Boost.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'm not entirely disagreeing with anyone here but..
It's not like there was anything to spend your in-game currency on apart from TOs/DO's/SO's at one point.
So it made sense they ran out and you then spend your money replacing them. Sure they could have lasted forever but then what was the money for?
Once we got IO's you were free to switch to those as they did not go red. Every so often you would replace them with better ones. Or not. Everyone worked differently.
The problem with crafting "better" gear using "stuff" is that it just gets really confusing. I love crafting, loved it in GW2, NW, CoH, AA. It's a big draw for me.
In my mind it's better to have a simple system with tons of stuff to do in it rather than say what NW has.
NW has swimlanes - you craft leadership. You craft alchemy. You craft leather gear. You craft chainmail gear.
Within those lanes, improvements to items are via rare mats and purchased (let's face it, mostly with rl money) professions and gear. Even then it's a % chance of getting a rare creation - the more you spend, the better the chance.
It would be P2W except by the time you've got your four purple crafters (of the same type) and your four purple (appropriate trade type) crafting gear items and made the uber boots of swiftness with the enhanceable module... it turns out there's hundreds of them on the AH for far, far less than you just spent on those men, gear and mats.
I dunno.. I just remember making tons of regular IOs and making a small but guaranteed profit on each one and thinking that I was enjoying myself.
Also - those good sets that capped at 40. What was the problem? They didn't stop being good after that and were excellent for exemping down.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Would you have the level scaling of the "enhancement" boost like the IOs had, or would they all have a static boost regardless of level like the SOs? The scaling by level would sort of take care of the second part.
Overall, I would just say go with IOs from the start and forget the TO/DO/SOs.
Why are you worried about such trivial pursuits? ;)
Yeah, I don't mean to say that it was a problem, it just seemed weird that the best sets in some powers were the ones that stopped at level 40. One would naturally expect that there should be better stuff that went up to 50, so it seemed incomplete (to me) that such was not there. It was one of the many quirky things about the IO system in CoH, and it worked fine, it just left me feeling like it was incomplete. I mean, it was like you had joined a branch of the armed forces where the highest attainable rank was Lt. Commander. You knew there were other branches where they had Generals and Admirals, etc, but your service stops at Lt. Commander. Even the name "Lt. Commander" makes it sound like there should be a rank above it just called "Commander", but no, Lt. Commander as it turns out is the highest rank, for THAT service. I don't know, maybe it's just my OCD....
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I would tie the overall 'power' of the Boost to its 'level', like IOs and I would make them Combinable, like TO/DO/SOs were. However, the resulting enhancement 'power' would not be linear.
I'm not sure how the results would work. I want to be able to slot an 'even-level' Boost and receive 25-30% enhancement of that aspect of the power, or possibly a little more. Slot two of the same type and get 50-60% enhancement. This is all just an estimate, based on CoH behavior and CoT powers may very well behave differently.
I'm thinking that the 'level' of the Boost would control its maximum enhancement level, or the maximum number of aspects that it could boost, and the maximum values of those aspect enhancements.
I would definitely design this as a single, unified system, without introducing multiple 'stages' like TO/DO/SO.
Be Well!
Fireheart
CoT is building a boosting system from the ground up, and not simply copying what CoH did. So, while it may be worthwhile to talk about the pros and cons of CoH's system, keep in mind discussing how to fix the old system is more a theoretical discussion. The old system doesn't exist anymore and won't exist in CoT.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
i think a way to do a boost system would be great and if it was done in 4 slots each slot could be 25% so 1 slot is 25% having 2 slots would be a 50% boost and 3 slots would give a 75% boost finally have all 4 slots for a 100% boost, this would also allow for a lot of different boosting, some may only need 1 slot others might need 3 slots or u can go all 4 slots for total boosting power. i feel the possibility of this makes the old enhancements way seem less powerful u wouldn't out level a boost so if u have 4 slots boosted at 15 by the time u hit level cap u still are enjoying 100% boost power.
But, does it have to be bad?
Be Well!
Fireheart
The numbers being quoted are way too high.
Slotting four anything should not be the way to get 100% bonus, that's what ED and set bonuses were for.
One of the main reasons I think I liked CoX's system was the ability to unslot and re-use enhancements. This is something that in Neverwinter at least costs you a fortune. Possibly the patch today will change this in a good way. But I digress.. you're not going to see 100% buffs from enhancements.
If people won't pay enough to finance its creation, it is not worth creating.
/Segev
Well IIRC three-slotting in CoH brought you into the 90s so I'd have no problem with enhancements set at 25% with six slots per power. It's at least something to start with.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
It was close enough to 100% as to make little to no difference. Now, I can agree that no amount of boost slotting should get the character to the damage cap for any particular power. If there is a hard cap on damage, that is. I don't think a character, by them selves, should be able to reach the cap for any aspect of their powers. That should only be achievable with teammates.
Disagree. Much like CoH, why shouldn't my dodgy type not be able to reach softcap to dodge?
+1,000,000
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Um...it discourages teaming, encourages soloing (which is NOT a bad thing) and leaves no room for Inventions. If you can get to soft cap with normal Boosts then what will Inventions be good for?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I do wonder how reaching cap discourage teaming though? Is it discouraging because reaching the cap by the way of teaming would be a moot carrot and thus people wouldn't team? I always thought people teamed because they wanted to, for the camaraderie, and social aspect, and if there was things that made soloing easier even with maxed stats in this case, they still would team regardless. And only ones that would be affected that I can think of are people that didn't want to team in the first place but had to if they wanted to survive and or cant survive on their own.
Yeah if normal enhancement and boosts did hit soft cap, maybe there wouldn't be much room for inventions. Then again in the end, what difference do it make if one hits soft cap by normal enhancement or Invention sets? I think people that love crafting, even if normal sets can reach soft cap, then they still will use inventions. If one is able to reach soft cap off of normal enhancements, then they wouldn't need inventions to get there, which isn't a bad thing though. But given that it been stated that IOs are not needed for anything anyways across the forum, then what difference would it make if normal enhancements gave soft cap. As they say, they wasn't needed anyways and was "optional" to begin with. One difference is that it would make them optional to reach the soft cap and not a needed tool any longer to reach soft cap. Another choice for players to go, which isn't a bad thing especially for people that may wish to not want to craft, while those that do want ot craft can still reach soft cap by the way of crafting and invention.
Okay, that is not how the posts made it sound at all. Post just said not reach caps on your own.
I agree that one should have to invest in gear/powers to hit those marks however.
There is a difference between a hard cap and a soft cap. I'm talking hard caps. If I'm not mistaken, Blaster damage was hard capped at 500%, Tanker Resistance was hard capped at 90%, Even Defense had a hard cap, it was just ridiculously higher than the soft cap.
Maybe in the Titans Power Designer they can show the SoftCap and Hard Caps, etc, graphically, so we dont have to look at allot of text. :)
ex: maybe...
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ex8zReS.png[/img]
perhaps just a rectangular gradient, for the Totals, that sits behind the different totals... Defense, Resistance, etc...
But the Boosts we make will BE 'inventions', right?
I was sure I heard 'no ToDoSo'...
Be Well!
Fireheart
When talking "percent" you're working under the assumption that boosting something 100% is not built into the character design.
In my example I kind of assumed that the gear itself would be used to define ALL of how your character's numbers work and assumes that everyone has to have SOMETHING slotted.
I know this isn't something people like to hear but I think engaging people in the gear that is simple to understand is a good retention factor for MMORPGs. That said I don't think the overall effectiveness of a character from the worst o the best to be more than 30%
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Actually, I'm working from a premise that was suggested somewhere...
That Boosts might go up to 99-100%, but that the individual Powers might respond differently to a given level of enhancement. So you might get double-damage, or you might get triple-damage, or half-damage from a given amount of enhancement. The shape and limits of enhanceability would be built into the Power.
Be Well!
Fireheart
As a Healer or Controller (lesser extent a tank.. but people try for TankMages) I don't care to increase my damage as much as I care to increase my core mechanic for my role. Increase my Mez Please
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I believe that damage was used as an example of the way the boosts could affect the effects of the powers.
And vice-versa - the Powers could 'interpret' a given amount of Boost as more or less effective. So, a 'Super Nova' power might only be enhanced to +100% - it might only be Able to be enhanced to +100%, but the Power's inherent multiplier might interpret that +100 as +300% effect.
Another power might have a more 'enhancement-resistant' effectiveness curve, where the first bit of enhancement, say +30% goes in at full strength, but subsequent Amounts of enhancement suffer diminishing returns, such that +50% enhancement only results in +40% effect and +100% enhancement is slowly strangled down to +50% effect.
So the Devs could have mathematically tweak-able 'enhancement-curves' built into the powers themselves.
Be Well!
Fireheart