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Game Content Maturity for City of Titans?

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Sqwheelz
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Game Content Maturity for City of Titans?

Has there been any discussion about the maturity of the game content, the targeted age of the audience, or a possible ESRB rating?

While I don't mind playing with kids and teens, I'm wary of any game that edits its content to stay under a "Teen" or "Everyone" ESRB rating. I am a mature player who enjoys mature content and stories.

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It'll be like CoH in that

It'll be like CoH in that regard ("T for Teen") (e.g. http://cityoftitans.com/comment/27972#comment-27972)

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Oh boy... I'll go get my bag

Oh boy... I'll go get my bag of popcorn! ;)

In all seriousness the "Rednames" have already told us they are going to go for a "Teen" Rating for this game. I imagine they'll try to push the boundries of that where it makes sense, but otherwise I would expect things to be mostly similar to how CoH handled things in this regard.

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*gets a lawn chair for Lothic

*gets a lawn chair for Lothic and one for herself*

Would you like extra butter on that popcorn?

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It will definitely be T for

It will definitely be T for Teen. No more 'mature' than City of Villains was.

Requests for a higher maturity rating is most likely a non-starter. Sorry for those who wanted something more mature.

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Lothic
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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

It will definitely be T for Teen. No more 'mature' than City of Villains was.
Requests for a higher maturity rating is most likely a non-starter. Sorry for those who wanted something more mature.

While I completely undertand that means you're probably not going to allow "blood splatters on the screen" or obvious "let's go run a mission down at the local brothel" scenarios I do hope you will still consider some "grittier" type content, especially for villains.

There's actually quite a bit that can be done within the Teen Rating and be suggestive of more mature themes without actually having to say or show anything inappropriate. Another thread on this topic raised the concern that too much of the original CoH villain content was a bit "Scooby Doo" like.

Just please be mindful that Teen Ratings leave plenty of "room to maneuver" so to speak.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Sqwheelz
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In all seriousness, this was

In all seriousness, this was not meant as a troll. I'm very glad for the information; I was unaware that the developers had announced their intent for a rating, and I was quite satisfied with the maturity of City of Heroes. Though I agree with Lothic about a desire for some grittier, adult-oriented content.

I had concerns about CoT turning out like DOFUS, Farmerama, or Wizard 101, which I hear are not bad games, but really I don't want to be playing in pick-up groups filled with 10 year olds.

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Sqwheelz wrote:
Sqwheelz wrote:

In all seriousness, this was not meant as a troll. I'm very glad for the information; I was unaware that the developers had announced their intent for a rating, and I was quite satisfied with the maturity of City of Heroes. Though I agree with Lothic about a desire for some grittier, adult-oriented content.
I had concerns about CoT turning out like DOFUS, Farmerama, or Wizard 101, which I hear are not bad games, but really I don't want to be playing in pick-up groups filled with 10 year olds.

I don't think anyone was really accusing you of being a troll. It's just that this topic has been covered quite a bit already in a few other recent threads.

The important thing is that hopefully the CoT Devs will be mindful of these concerns.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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My problem with these calls

My problem with these calls for a more 'Mature' game, is that, besides the issue of Excluding children from playing it, no one who has proposed the change has explained how 'Mature' content will improve the Game.

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You can view the lengthy

You can view the lengthy exchange at http://cityoftitans.com/forum/multiple-esrb-ratings-adult-content-area

So, we've covered this and then some.

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Brand X
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

My problem with these calls for a more 'Mature' game, is that, besides the issue of Excluding children from playing it, no one who has proposed the change has explained how 'Mature' content will improve the Game.
Be Well!
Fireheart

I thought, getting parents to actually look the game over and allowing more freedom if so desired to create mature content, whether they did or not, was very much an "improving" the game type proposal.

Mind you, I'm not sure exactly what constitutes mature rating in an MMO. For all the talk about TERA Online I saw way more revealing outfits in CoH.

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The ratings, or at least

The ratings, or at least those responsible for assigning them, appear to focus primarily on the levels of (realistic) violence, drugs and drug use, and sexual content (nudity et al). In America higher levels of violence tend to be more acceptable whereas in Europe nudity is less of a taboo.

It's less common today, but to provide a frame of reference I never heard any outrage over these kinds of Fa* commercials airing during the day in Europe.

* Not purely an excuse to post boobies.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

The ratings, or at least those responsible for assigning them, appear to focus primarily on the levels of (realistic) violence, drugs and drug use, and sexual content (nudity et al). In America higher levels of violence tend to be more acceptable whereas in Europe nudity is less of a taboo.
It's less common today, but to provide a frame of reference I never heard any outrage over these kinds of Fa* commercials airing during the day in Europe.
* Not purely an excuse to post boobies.

Although something like that *wouldn't* be shown in the UK.

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Terlin wrote:
Terlin wrote:

You can view the lengthy exchange at http://cityoftitans.com/forum/multiple-esrb-ratings-adult-content-area
So, we've covered this and then some.

Those who hang around with people who enjoy putting their opinion in front of others are doomed to see them repeated. :)

On a more serious note, I think some of that is that having a game "suggestions forum" is prone to that... it gets hard to see what was suggested before, so even someone who might just +1 the idea or a comment (assuming the forum even had a mechanism to allow that) end up making a thread, or repeating stuff that was covered in a previous thread, etc. And that is just the eyerolling stuff. The bigger problem (imo) is that some people get into a mode of suggestion gatekeeper, where they feel they need to rule on the likelihood of a feature even though they have no more experience with the game code than the suggester does. If it gets gross enough, it turns people off who might otherwise have brought an interesting suggestion to the table, or interesting feedback on an existing suggestion.

It bugs me only enough that I have threatened myself over the years to write some kind of suggestions managing thing that would work for game sites, but not quite enough to tip the balance into doing it.

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Yes. It is hard to see

Yes. It is hard to see related topics sometimes, especially if the topic title isn't identical.

I also agree that over time, it is a certainty that they will be repeated. Some topics will be stickied, and that will help, but over-doing that can have the same problem. I just thought it might be useful to the OP to look over the prior thread. Certainly, if new ideas need to be presented, then by all means share them.

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Once MWM starts producing

Once MWM starts producing videos, peeks at initial gameplay, and the AB goes live I'm certain there will be a lot more people coming to the forums. At that point I'd be amazed if topics are rehashed only twice or thrice.

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What if MWM did what I and

What if MWM did what I and several others have suggested and create a single sticky that covers design decisions as simple bullet points, indicating which have been definitely agreed, which are probabilities, and which are still open to discussion? The bullet points could contain links to the discussion threads, but would just be summaries in the main thread.

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That's not a bad idea!

That's not a bad idea!

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Lin Chiao Feng
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

For all the talk about TERA Online I saw way more revealing outfits in CoH.

Remember that EME censored a lot of stuff, up to and including rewriting big chunks of lore, when they brought it over to America. Originally, most of the Elin costumes pretty much had string panties for bottoms; EME copied the hot pants from one of the costumes over those. And the Elin and Popori were an actual, reproducing race or similar; EME rewrote it so they were entirely separate. The original Korean stuff is downright creepy.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

In America higher levels of violence tend to be more acceptable whereas in Europe nudity is less of a taboo.

As an adult American I personally don't really mind seeing an ample quantity of either sex or violence in my entertainment media. But if we really seemingly do live in a world where we can only get lots of one or the other I wouldn't mind living under the European paradigm of sex being "more acceptable" than violence.

Darth Fez wrote:

Once MWM starts producing videos, peeks at initial gameplay, and the AB goes live I'm certain there will be a lot more people coming to the forums. At that point I'd be amazed if topics are rehashed only twice or thrice.

Back on the CoH forums I'd bet the top 10 or 20 most desired wishes/suggestions for the game got recycled as "new" forum threads dozens of times over the years.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Lin Chiao Feng
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
Once MWM starts producing videos, peeks at initial gameplay, and the AB goes live I'm certain there will be a lot more people coming to the forums. At that point I'd be amazed if topics are rehashed only twice or thrice.

Back on the CoH forums I'd bet the top 10 or 20 most desired wishes/suggestions for the game got recycled as "new" forum threads dozens of times over the years.

That's pretty much an inherent weakness of the forum concept. Older discussed topics get lost, and unless someone does a sticky post that's a directory to the others, it's real easy to lose track of things.

We really need a wiki.

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Brand X wrote:
For all the talk about TERA Online I saw way more revealing outfits in CoH.

Remember that EME censored a lot of stuff, up to and including rewriting big chunks of lore, when they brought it over to America. Originally, most of the Elin costumes pretty much had string panties for bottoms; EME copied the hot pants from one of the costumes over those. And the Elin and Popori were an actual, reproducing race or similar; EME rewrote it so they were entirely separate. The original Korean stuff is downright creepy.

I do remember, and CoH still had people in more revealing outfits. We had people running around in string bikinis in CoH, and as skimpy as TERA's outfits are (even uncensored), they were less revealing than Eden Top and Bikini 2 (or was it 1).

And TERA censored because people couldn't separate RL with the looks of a race.

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It isn't as simple as "X

It isn't as simple as "X shows more skin"-- while that will always be a contributing factor, it is often what is done with that visual element as well.

The presentation of the content is just as critical as the actual content. A scantily-clad female character that poses and gestures suggestively while parts of her jiggle across the screen will raise more concern than a girl in an even smaller bikini swimming in the ocean.

For a nonsexual example: Compare Mel Gibson's R-rated "the passion of the christ" with any of the many other variants that fill the airwaves every christmas/easter without editing, like "the greatest story ever told." Both cover the same basic subject matter, but the presentation makes one more appropriate for older adults or teens accompanied by adults.

If you browse the ESRB database (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp) , you'll find games that manage to be "teen" even with "partial nudity," "violence" and "sexual themes." You'll find some that have 'blood/gore". These don't have to be taboo topics- they just have to be handled with responsible presentation.

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I'm perfectly content with a

I'm perfectly content with a teen rating game, tbh.

It never once crossed my mind to see things like blood/gore or nudity in city of heroes and I honestly don't feel like the experience would be enhanced if it had it, it's just a needless way to alienate the teen gamer audience. I mean, when COH came out many of us were probably teens at the time, I had only just turned 18 a few months prior to COH releasing, if it had released just a few months sooner, I would have been 17.

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Having played Dofus for many

Having played Dofus for many years, I can say that, while the game's graphics are cartoony and comedic, the game is set in a very, very dark universe. Their universe doesn't care about you, your characters (even at max level) are insignificant compared to the forces of nature that surround you, evil can never be defeated or even slowed down, and all your struggles will never make a difference in the world.

While that last one is seemingly true for most MMOs, in that your actions can't substantially change a persistent world, for Dofus it's even true in the metagame. Dofus has a sequel called Wakfu, set 1000 years later, and all of the bosses that you supposedly defeated are still alive and still ruling their little bits of the world. They tell you stories of tragedy, build up to an epic confrontation to allow you to put right what once went wrong... and then tell you that your actions ultimately made no difference whatsoever. (And then they marketed the game to 13-year-olds. Go figure)

It's a cheerful goofy series set in one of the most Crapsack Worlds I've ever seen in fiction.

Don't make CoT more mature than that. I want CoT to be less mature, at least sometimes. Sometimes I just want good to win over evil with no "yes, but..." tragic twist.

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Thunder Glove wrote:
Thunder Glove wrote:

Don't make CoT more mature than that. I want CoT to be less mature, at least sometimes. Sometimes I just want good to win over evil with no "yes, but..." tragic twist.

Personally, I feel exactly the opposite. Good wins entirely too much, and indeed when evil does "win" their victory is only brief before they are beaten into retreat. I hope that CoT will be a game that won't shy away from more satisfying villain content than what was found in CoH, where you can feel like a real villain, where victory for heroes and villains alike needs to be earned through player effort and is not necessarily predetermined.

However, with the way CoT mission system is designed I believe they can accommodate a very wide range of content types and maturity, including content that both of us will like. The entirety of the game content need not be at the same level. You could have the more family-friendly (or just less crapsack) "Stop the mad scientist with the death ray!" and the grittier stuff that others may look for in the same game. It seems like CoT is very much a game where you can choose your own path. I think we'll all find something to like in this game, assuming the writers are up to such a monumental task.

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Let me explain/rephrase.

Let me explain/rephrase. When I'm playing a hero, sometimes I want good to win without reservations. I want the world saved, the hostages released unharmed, the lost lovers reunited, and so on and so forth, with the villains left alive to plot mischief again some other day. Granted, I know not everyone feels that way, so sometimes the lovers die, the hostages don't make it, a city gets destroyed even as the world is saved. But not every time. That's why I enjoyed Matthew Hashalby's arc (which ended with you saving Matthew and the wife he thought had been killed) much better than, say, Who Will Die (where your hero cannot save Statesman or Sister Psyche, regardless of what you, the player, do). That's what I meant by "less mature", because the last time I saw superheroes where the victory was that absolute, it was in 1970s and 1980s Saturday morning cartoons.

Of course, when playing a villain, then the bad guy can and darn well should win, for some definition of "win". We can't destroy or take over the world, but we should be able to see a growing reputation among the heroes - and other villains - of the world. They should stop just trying to boss you around and start fearing and respecting you. As someone else said - I believe it was on the Titan forums - villains should be fun. The focus shouldn't be on the atrocities themselves or what a horrible person your character is for doing them, it should be on the spectacle.

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It seems like we agree on

It seems like we agree on pretty much everything. It just sounds like missions will be a bit more dynamic in CoT, from how you get them in the first place to their content. For example, if you want that unconditional victory, chances are you'll be under some conditions (like a time limit, or finding a certain bad guy with a key, or defusing the hidden bomb). Perhaps you'll be too late to save the hostage, not because it was written in stone from the start, but because you literally took too long to get through the mission. You might still stop the villain and "win" the mission, but things will turn out differently.

Basically, CoT seems less about telling you a story and more about you building your own story (within the constraints of the system), and assuming that can be done it will be an awesome experience for everyone.

Certified neutral evil