Since in game currency (IGC) is not real money, and is disclaimer-ed to be defined as such, any money-for-IGC transactions people make are not per se guaranteed by the game devs.
So is it therefore not illegal (in places where gambling with real money is illegal) to allow the "buy a random chance at a recipe" function in a game like CoT? Because CoX had that and CoX was a game you had to go through RL goldfarmers to convert INF to money or visa versa.
While it's true that Stars will be, essentially, backed by real money, and will be a thing that people can trade for IGC, the prices people agree upon for those trades are set by the parties involved. So as long as it's "use your Stars to buy IGC on the market, then use THAT to but a lottery ticket for a bit of cool swag, maybe" is that still legally do-able or not?
If the game comes right out and says "We've rigged the prices of the tickets and odds such that, overall, this is a bad idea, you should probably just keep your IGC and not bother" then puts it in there anyway for people who want to live dangerously, etc.is that going to get them into trouble?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
If it's going to be that bad for the consumer - then why spend the time and effort to have it in the game in the first place?
Is buying a pack of baseball or magic cards gambling? I can buy those in every state in the us.
What you would do, if you were the person running the lottery game or whatever it is, is set the IGC price of a single ticket to MORE than the going-rate price of the average prize payout. That is, given the odds of getting each prize and the approximate going rate prices of those, you would set the price of buying a ticket to play the lottery higher than the expected value of the average ticket.
This is how real lotteries like Powerball and MegaMillions work, and it;s also how casino agmes like Craps and roulette work, and those all make money, or have been capable of making money, for the people running the lotteries or casinos in question. The reasons why are all about psychology and not mathematics I think. The point is that any one person MIGHT become a big winner one time, but over many, many plays by many, many people, the ticket fees gathered outstrip the price of the prizes disbursed. The REASON anyone would choose to take some IGC and play the lottery with it is pretty much "for fun" because gambling is fun, to some extent.
Edit: In CoX, the thing that worked this way had a chance of getting you some good rare recipes at low character levels and as such it made the lottery profitable for the players and a loss for the people running it, but like all other NPCs, they stupidly kept their ticket prices the same and kept on selling random rolls for swag that were underpriced and as such a winning bet for the players. you'd have to make sure the ticket prices change with the times to remove that problem.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Yes, but some foreign countries think of that sort of marketing as, essentially, gambling. It's a fine line distinction, but it may cause MWM marketing and legal problems in those foreign markets.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I would be more worried about whether their two groups of nazi knock offs trigger Germany's anti-nazi propaganda laws
Seeing as how random packs of garbage are in so many MMOs, my guess would be it's not considered gambling in other countries.
Korea is making a law defining lockboxes as gambling focusing on those with a key being a real life currency purchase
Making means not in effect yet and could still fail.
And requiring a key? Does that mean they don't consider those in TOR which don't require a key, as gambling?
I really don't know if this would be an effective IGC sink (which would be the reason for having it) in CoT, but I'd like to know if it's off the table or not and why.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
If the average winnings is significantly less than the cost of the ticket, it would be an effective IGC sink, as long as players keep buying the tickets.
I'm reminded of the flavor text on the INWO "State Lotteries" card: "It's a tax on stupidity, and the money keeps rolling in..." Or words to that effect. I'm far to busy to try to dig that card out. ^_^
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
.
Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
As long as there is a chance (even a tiny one) to get more out of it than you put into it, there will always be someone who gambles. And since you do not use money for it, I can not see this causing any legal problems.
still not keen on lockboxes of any sort. That's just money I may be spending on items I may never get and if TOR has taught me anything, that will be that the item I want to get will be made so expensive as to not be easily obtained.
Lockboxes, as I understand them, are "you get this instead of a recipe drop or whatever for defeating a boss, then have to pay real money to open the box, get random things", what I'm describing is more like "there's an NPC somewhere (like in a casino) that sells random rolls for some amount of IGC. You pay, you get a random thing, which is more often than not a lot cheaper than the price of the ticket, but sometimes WAY better." THAT system would be totally optional in the sense that you'd have to go find the casino guy in the first place and nothing is prompting you to have to "cash in" your lockboxes with real money.
That said, there exists the possibility that a person could use real money to buy Stars, then trade Stars for IGC on the market, then use spend all of that IGC on these random prize rolls. So that is ultimately a possible IGC sink and a possible Star sink, in theory. You'd have to make the odds and payouts tantalizing enough that people would do it but not SO good that it could ever be exploited for profit by the players in any reliable long-term sense.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
If you want to gamble, do it right. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko_parlor]Pachinko Parlor[/url].
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
If they decided to embed a Pachinko Parlor as a mini-game inside CoT we could probably count on there being several thousand Japanese players in there who'd do nothing else but spend 23.5 hours a day playing it.
Pachinko parlors tend to be very easy to spot almost anywhere in Japan: In any given town or village they're often the only modern multi-story Wal-mart sized buildings planted in the middle of areas with otherwise traditional single story tract housing or farming. To say they stick out like "sore thumbs" is a gross understatement.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
So pachinko is basically slightly more complicated bagatelle ?
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Complicated at least to the point of it becoming a huge "multi-million dollar entertainment business" in Japan.
[img=300x200]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Electric_City_Akihabara_Pachinko.jpg[/img]
I guess one could say the Japanese took the idea to a logical extreme. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
One thing I would like to see, though it's not something currently set, more of a personal opinion, is that arenas actually get used for viewable sporting venues - from player vs player games to actual pvp combat contests and with that an NPC guided betting system. Players can place bets and wins are divided out from the total purse offset by odds, with the NPC (house) always getting a cut. Sadly it would take a whole lot of subsystems to restrict all the loopholes players could use to rig the system in their general favor. Still would be interesting to see if its possible as it lends to all kinds of fun possibilities.
Player renown by popular teams for sporting events, players characters become known due to their wins - championship purses to winners of ladder matches etc.., pc rep amongst NPCs and more,
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
There also ingame Game gambling. The slot machines in casinos, poker tables, and other such games could have a gambling system.
-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Won't be long before players collude to throw the matches every now and then.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
If you did implement this functionality you would never, ever hear the end of the, "PvP is too unbalanced!" rant. The only way I could possibly see this working would be in a game like League of Legends that is designed from the beginning as principally a PvP battle arena style game.
It makes for great science fiction, mind you, but out here in the real world? No thanks. Greed and human ambition are too prone to cruelty and sadism.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
Agreed n both points Lin and Greyhawk, which is why I said it would take a lot of subsystems to implement. A whole lot of effort for little return.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
As a theoretical exercise, I think implementing in-game gambling on PvP events would actually go a long way towards helping to provide a metric for determining balance. Observe the odds offered and taken, as well as the win rates in the betting pools. It would tell you a lot about what matchups are actually strong/weak, with statistical spreads across multiple players and classifications and even builds. More than just win/loss rates, you could see evaluations of how badly outmatched opponents are viewed to be and, objectively, how economically accurate that perception is (based on how the IGC flows after all bets are settled).
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Interesting thought there. Would it be possible to hire some kind of professional Vegas odds maker to serve this function as part of the design R & D team or something after the game launches? That might be just as good.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Segev, if you were to put such a theoretical exercise into practice, may I recommend that the time frame used for such activities be intermittent? Specifically, I'm thinking in terms of Sat/Sun only (ie. 48 hours) so that you don't wind up with too much of a runaway effect. It also gives the PvP community a week of "downtime" before re-engaging and makes it a lot easier for review by Developers of results and analysis of trends ... both during a specific weekend and on a rolling week to week basis.
That then gives you an experimental basis within which to test all kinds of theories, approaches and balancing mechanisms. Once a dynamic equilibrium begins to emerge (as opposed to a static equilibrium), so as to keep things from being TOO predictable, you'd then be able to expand the time frame of PvP gambling operations to include Fri and Mon.
One thing that might seem counter-intuitive is that by limiting the access to PvP features in this way (by time available) it could paradoxically help promote the necessary amount of critical density to allow a PvP Community to coalesce and form. Then, once it is "ready" to expand beyond its experimental confines, the time limitations on availability of venues could be relaxed. The basic idea is to help a "core" of PvP interests to emerge in a way that doesn't get out of hand too quickly [i]and then remain that way forever[/i]. It's also a format that would (again, ironically) encourage a dialogue between PvP Players and the Developers responsible for that content and mechanics, resulting in weekly "revs" of issues identified, yielding a relatively fast turnaround time with manageable expectations for BOTH SIDES (Players and Developers). It would make possible a sort of Rapid Prototyping in a semi-controlled way. And, even better, if there are things that the Developers "want to know" about PvP, all they have to do is speak up during the downtime and ask for assistance with observing "BLAH" in PvP so that there can be datamining of the phenomenon. When you tell Players what they can do to help Developers with their investigations, a substantial number of Players will rise to the challenge and provide information (either by forum posts and/or playtime that can be datamined) that can be useful to those investigations.
And besides ... who is going to complain about WEEKLY updates to PvP? Sure, the updates might not contain what the PvPers are [i]screaming about[/i] that specific week, but there will be an easily referenced measure of progress made, and the rate at which that progress happens will at least be visible.
Again, taking what you're saying as a hypothetical, Segev, and theoretically putting it into practice.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I like the idea of having a set day or two every week for running PVP events as a way of forming a community by giving everyone a known time and place to expect to find PVP matches. I'm not saying they should actively prevent people for PVPing when they choose to do so, just that some kind of official or advertized PVP events on a known regular schedule would be a great magnet to attract PVPers. Wizards of the Coast does this with Friday Night Magic. If you play Magic and you feel like entering a tournament, you can generally expect there to be one going on on a Friday night somewhere where Magic cards are sold. That builds community. I've met some of my best friends that way.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I'm generally against any form of gambling in a pre-adult game. I feel the same about "Candy Cigarettes"
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I don't disagree with this point of view, I just wanted to ask the question of whether or not it's even legally feasible to do that with IGC, as IGC is defined.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
It's legal to do it With all forms of "virtual in-game currency". This includes Stars.. and that's how many companies sell you lockboxes and other freemium gambling.
South Park nailed this one and hit it out of the park. Lets not introduce children to their vices, and let the IRL world do that for us.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Gambling is really being discussed for this mmo? The lockbox get around the gambling part because they offer enticement with a grand prize but you are not buying keys for the sole purpose of the grand prize from the game. The lockboxes and R&D packs (STO) give you items for the price of the key. Lockboxes are random items, R&D packs are mats. The marketing dept throws in a grand prize to tug on the player's desires. Lottery offers a prize only. MMO Games give you something for your purchase AND a chance at a prize. Everyone just focuses on the prize part and gets upset when they spend $100 and whine they got nothing, in reality they got a lot of stuff for that $100, just not what they wanted.
It's interesting that we talk about any topic when it comes to this game, or any future game MWM might produce. Way back when we even were talking about Gold Farmers Pro's and Con's. So yeah we are talking about ingame gambling. Don't mean it be implemented but to get a better idea of the playerbase views. Who knows Crowd intelligence has been proven smarter than individual intelligence so we might figure something out that is a good idea.
First thing MWM set out to do was to look at every aspect of gaming not just what assumed.
-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I really hope CoT doesn't have any kind of gambling. If it does, that will be it for me. I refuse to participate in that kind of thing. That is a sickness that does not need to be exacerbated by any means at all. Stuff like that can destroy people's lives. Not cool.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Sadly I have known the reverse to be true, "A person is smart, a group of people and dumb and scared." Mis quoting it from Agent K in MIB. I get the nagging feeling with the monetary threads that money is a focus rather then the byproduct. Just my vibe, could and hope to high heaven wrong. Seen to many MMO's go money grabbing vs player content. That was not what I remember from COH even in the F2P days. Whether agreed with it or not incarnates was a good amount of content. Sadly in STO as an example, content trickles in slower then the Cstore bloating.
My point of view.
Static I sympathize with your concerns coming from a chold hood with a father who was addicted to gambling to the point where several times very good friends bailed him out of losing his house. Having spent part of my youth set loose in Atlantic City with zero supervision for the better half of a day at a time I know what dangers gambling addiction represents.
Thst still doesn't mean every form of it must be absolutely eliminated from the game. We could make the same argument for the representation of other unseemly darker sides of crime and the possible negative messages they may convey. The intended rating is T for Teen. I don't want to see PCs lined up in a Casino - playing a game to gamble on a virtual machine does not sound like good game play to me.
Offering ways to make PvP i to sporting events and for players outside said events to gain a vested interest offers intrigung possibilities imop.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
For what it's worth, I don't see how you'd be able to stop people from fixing PVP matches. Lottery type stuff where you buy a roll for a goodie is pretty foolproof as far as I can tell though.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Still, putting lockboxes, lotteries etc. in this game may make money but would also run the risk of alienating the "spiritual successor to COX" idea. Where some players see money, others see cash grab. Since this is all just out loud thinking, if it were to gain traction and end up in game. Would like to see it along the lines of DCUO. There lockboxes are dang near a very rear drop with chance of dropping increased if subbing. Subs get to open for free and F2P players have to buy keys. Middle of the road style. In no way am I on the side of adding this to the game.
My 2 IGC
CoX had a thing where you could use Reward Merits to roll for random recipes, didn't it? I thought the one exploit was that you could generate chances like this really cheaply by doing AE missions then use the proceeds from that to buy random rolls with the hope of generating one or more of the really expensive Knockback protection recipes that people wanted. Or something like that.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I used the heck out of the AE random roll plan to get IOs to fund my alt/purple habit
Come to think of it, CoX had a whole bunch of things that were totally broken in terms of people being able to exploit the game for massive profits.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Something similar in the rolling dept. but none of what you described was done with real money. That's why AE tickets were farmed so much because of rolls and salvage.
AND I LIKED THAT ...spiritual successor...
Yep COH had exploits. Battle Maiden map, AE, fire/kin cont. The thing is they were all for digital gain through digital expense. Praying to the Random Number God in the from of AE tickets or farming runs, is not the same as paying real money on a PvP match or lockbox.
CoH had lockboxes. So not so sure it would hurt it being a spiritual successor.
Wait, CoH? I don't recall any lockboxes in CoH.
Be Well!
Fireheart
News to me as well, don't remember any lockboxes. Especially the ones found today. Please enlighten my failed memory.
I don't recall lock boxes either. Though I believe the stance has been made that we won't use them for CoT (don't quote me on that though, believe being the key word there).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Super packs. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Super_Pack
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Which, where packs you had to buy. No, they didn't drop, but really they were no different than a lockbox. Money spent, open them up, hope you get the item you want!
The Super Packs were a little different.
Lockboxes get dropped randomly as loot and then you need to buy a key to open them. They pop up frequently and every time you find one you will think about what could be in there if you just bought some keys...
The Super Packs were only available in the store, they were lockbox and key in one. You were not bothered by them at all when you did not want to. The main difference is the aggressiveness of the advertising, but it was that difference that made me accept (and buy a few) Super Packs, while I still dislike lockboxes.
The marketing ploy in lockboxes is that they're items that everybody [i]sees[/i], and they're something you [i]have[/i]. The fact that, in truth, they're nothing at all without the paid-for keys doesn't change the perception that you've gone from choosing whether to buy a random pack to choosing whether to keep something you already have. It works on the human tendency to value the bird in the hand almost [i]too[/i] much.
People are more likely to expend effort to [i]keep what they have[/i] than they are to go out and get the very same thing if they don't already have it. Thus, by "giving" them the lockbox, it urges people to "keep" the box's contents by buying the key, even though they might not be inclined to buy a random item in the c-store otherwise.
It ironically makes lockboxed items a little harder to get than superpack items were, as well: you still have to get the lockbox through play.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Also, if you Subbed to CoH you earned Paragon Points on a monthly basis which you could save up and use to purchase the Packs. So you didn't have to really spend real money to buy them. Yes you were paying for a Subscription, but I was already paying for a Subscription anyways so it was bonus free stuff for me after I saved up enough of my stipend to buy it. I didn't have to pony up any extra money, just the fifteen dollars a month I was already willing to pony up to have access to everything CoH had to offer.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
To be fair, if CoH had used actual lockboxes insteaad of SuperPacks, you could have bought keys with those subscription-garnered Paragon Points. So that net result would have been the same.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Bingo - I would not be against lockbox type entities if they worked like this.
My suggestion a long time ago was the concept of a "reverse lockbox". You find the keys in game, you choose what type of lockbox you wish to buy to open with it. Like costumes, buy a costume lockbox, want to lucky dip, you can etc.
This has the advantage that you don't need inventory for 15 different types of lockbox.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Could even tie into a story lore with that idea. Find Locker Key 884 on a mission could be a clue but also can unlock a lockbox.
-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
This statement was in reference to one I had made earlier about how CoX had a lot of exploitable mechanisms that people could use to generate INF or random valuable drops quickly.
While it's true that everyone like having "more stuff", as the late George Carlin famously said, it's also true that in any game where the stuff is everywhere and the stuff isn't sinked out well enough, stuff tends to pile up and the IGC currency becomes less valuable over time. Now, some small degree of inflation is probably not a bad thing as it prevents people from just socking away IGC forever hoping that it will appreciate in value. But when it get's out of hand, you end up having to trade people over 2BILLION (with a "B") influence for a single PVP IO recipe, something has clearly gone wrong.
The better the IGC sinks are, the more scarce IGC becomes and if you feel you're sinking too much, you can always relax the sinks a little bit, but if you don't even have the ability to sink the IGC effectively enough, you eventually end up with the dawn of the 3 Billion INF recipe, and making people have to haul around that much IGC for anything is just too awkward and inconvenient.
Whether or not gambling will sink IGC well enough to be a positive thing for any game I don't know, and I'm NOT in favor of making it like lockboxes where you MUST spend money on it. That said, I'm not against letting people convert Stars to IGC to roll on random tables either. That's where I stand on that, for what it's worth.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Except it wouldn't have been.
Lockboxes are dropped from defeating enemies or completing missions. You would have accrued way more lockboxes than you would keys, so eventually you would have been forced to spend more money to obtain the keys to open all of those lockboxes. Those lockboxes also take up inventory space, so eventually it comes down to "Do I buy a key and open them, or drop them and miss out on something potentially awesome?" I HATED receiving lockboxes while I was playing NWO for the short time I played it. It left a really nasty taste in my mouth. I had no choice in the matter at all, unless I just chose not to play the game. At least with CoH, I could CHOOSE to spend my stipends on Superpacks, or not.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
And here we see the marketing in play. The "take up inventory" aspect is annoying, but other than that, there is no functional difference between "I have more lockboxes than I can buy keys for using my subscription-garnered paragon points, so I just buy as many keys as I both want and can afford," and, "I spend subscription-garnered paragon points on as many superpacks as I want and can afford."
If you just drop the lockboxes when you have more than you will want to open, it's primarily a psychological difference.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
The funny thing about numbers, is that they are numbers. 100K Inf can be just as daunting as 2 Billion. If it's just as hard to make 100K as it is to make 2 Billion then there really isn't much difference except in the perspective. You have to remember that back in the day when Gasoline cost 5 cents a gallon, paying over 8000 dollars for a house was difficult to do. A millionaire back in that time was basically a Billionaire now. And last I checked, carrying around IGC doesn't take up inventory space or weigh a character down so that they can't move. So not sure how that's really an inconvenience.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
If I'm understanding Segev correctly, I think he's saying the results, in terms of net profits for the game company, would have been about the same from the lockboxes or the Super Packs, not that the systems were identical to each other.
oOStaticOo wrote: "so eventually you would have been forced to spend more money to obtain the keys to open all of those lockboxes" and herein lies the difference. You're NOT actually "forced" to buy keys at all, that's a choice, albeit a very attractive one. But that choice seems more valuable to you when it's a key to open a thing you already "have" than it would if it were the OPTION to buy a thing you don't currently have. As Segev mentioned, it's the "bird in hand" aspect of psychology at play there and the lockboxes are set up to prey upon that particular weak point in the human psyche.
I believe Segev was simply saying that the added layer of having to generate a random drop to get a lockbox in the first place may have cancelled out any added revenue you would have gotten over and above making it s a simple purchase choice in the c-store, based on the pricing you end up putting on it and the marketing you do, etc.
So like, on the one hand the lockboxes take work to generate, so there's a barrier to getting them there, but when to do have one it seems to almost scream "OPEN ME!!!, I COULD BE AWESOME!!" at you until you buy a key, whereas the SuperPAcks had no barrier to getting them, you just bought one in the Pargon Market, but they had no such psychological driver calling out to your subconscious either, and the effects of those two things seemed to make the whole proposition pretty much even in terms of net profits for the game company either way. At least that's how I understand Segev, I could be hearing it wrong myself.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Yes, but like you said you'd have to drop those lockboxes. There is a small chance that those lockboxes have something of value and you might need/want. So now the decision isn't to just drop the boxes, but instead spend MORE money to open them or not. Feeding the addiction to gamble away your paychecks on that small chance that you are going to open something really great!
Yet if I get to choose to buy only the amount of Superpacks I can with the amount of FREE points I earned through subscribing, I ONLY get as much as I can spend for with the points I saved up and earned, unless I decide to spend more actual money buying more packs. But I don't have this skewed number of more lockboxes than I do keys. It's a one and done deal. Buy the pack, open it up, it's used and goes away. Not, I bought 5 keys but I have 10 lockboxes. Now I used those 5 keys and still have 5 more lockboxes to go. Oh! Make that 15 now, since I just picked up 10 more.......
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
That's just it. There's no "small chance" that "those lockboxes" contain something you need and want that is any greater than the "small chance" that the superpack you buy would.
The key IS the superpack. The lockbox is an advertisement saying "buy a superpack; it could be awesome."
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I will have to agree to disagree with you on that. I don't see them that way.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
That's just how powerful the psychological trick is.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
So I pose this question then. Which was better from the stand point of the player base? The super pack which it seems some have forgotten (me included) or the lockbox that seems to divide many a player on any game that uses them. Not talking monetary wise, they both generated money, talking player mindset wise.
Indeed. But to me the lockboxes as advertisement feel too agressive. I have seen them in three games and in all I feel pestered by them. They drop very often and yet it is implied that they are something special and valuable with overdone sparkly effects and the name in the same color as they use for very rare items. So first I feel lucky that I found something super rare and then I see the lockbox and think: 'oh, it is just another blatantly obvious try to get me to give them more money. Hooray.' And things that disappoint and annoy me are things I will not spend money on.
I do not know how many other people think that way, but I do think that there can be too much advertisement and for me lockboxes cross that line.
Oh, I'm not defending (or villifying, for that matter) lockboxes. I am merely commenting on how they're fundamentally the same thing as superpacks...but utilize marketing psychology to try to push sales.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
I believe the Super Packs were less annoying. Yes they vanished from my memory, but then again I bought some and do not feel bad for it. I would do so again, while the one time I gave in and bought some keys for black lion chests in Guild Wars 2, it left me feeling cheated and I decidet to never do it again.
Actually, there's a very important market driven difference between Superpacks and Lockboxes ... as demonstrated by Star Trek Online.
In STO, lockboxes drop (too often, actually) and the type is chosen by the Devs, including "random" so as to allow a fresh injection of legacy lockboxes that have been discontinued into the economy.
Lockboxes can be traded for IGC (Energy Credits).
Keys to open lockboxes can ALSO be traded for IGC (Energy Credits).
Lockboxes are Drop items gained from defeating Foes and sometimes as Mission Rewards (usually an optional).
Keys are gained by giving Zen to Perfect World Entertainment.
The Lockbox and Key system used in STO permits the trading of Lockboxes and Keys for IGC, widening the potential demand beyond just merely those who want to spend Zen in order to open Lockboxes.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Man .. I know there are some hardcore Stans for City of Heroes but lets not pretend that it was perfect just cuz it's dead.
Gambling for a chance to get the item you want instead of buying it outright for a fair price is a problem. You can call them Lockboxes or Superpacks or any other name, but that rose is still a thorny, soil-spoiling rose.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
In GW2, both the Boxes and the Keys are in the reward drop table. They're also not too common.
Being trained in both Psychology and Marketing, I'd dispute the idea that lockboxes are valued more than other forms of paywall rewards. Or, perhaps it is that training that triggers the opposite reaction in me. Lockboxes drop in place of items that I can actually use, so I hate them. When I encounter them in games I'm playing, they annoy me.
Perhaps it's Cultural? Have studies been done on whether Americans and Europeans value lockboxes? Or is the 'psychology' explanation just another example of marketing-babble?
In CO, the damned lockboxes are out of control. Every event has a new and "different" sort of lockbox. There's dozens of different kinds, you can't sell them to vendors, they're not worth anything on the Market, so they just accumulate and clutter up the inventory. Worse, when you do pay the money for the Key and open a lockbox, it's often full of junk.
Be Well!
Fireheart
In NW, originally keys were tradable, but they were being used as currency at times, so they were made B2A.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
And with the last few posts it shows the difference in thinking. You got people not having an issue with super packs that probably gave the "buying baseball cards feel" to the gambling feel of the lock boxes. No one here has said COH was perfect in all things but there is a reason why it has a spiritual successor and why people want it around even with it being a dated game. I admit completely forgot about super packs. I now recall buying a few and some complaints on the forums but those were a far cry from the current lock box system employed today. Not advocating one or the other, but if choice between the two was given a voice. Super packs hands down even if sadly only a perception is what separates them.
Hypothetically - and no, this is not something I'm suggesting for CoT, but rather just to try to isolate elements of the discussion for analysis - but hypothetically... if "lockboxes," when dropped, went into their own special inventory and therefore did not take up room in your inventory and were always a bonus drop - never a replacement for something useful in its own right - would people still hate them?
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Hypothetically speaking then, what would be the point of making them drop if they could just be shunted away into a rarely used inventory?
Example: STO has a separate inventory for crafting mats (needed) but if not into crafting then that separate inventory is ignored by the player.
So is the loot drop more about "Hey we have something cool you might want to buy into" or "Hey look at me, you know you want to."?
What's the point of making them drop in this fashion taht is considered annoying?
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
In addition to be fair, DCUO is the only lockbox system from my point of view that works in a sense. As posted earlier, their Prometheus boxes are dam near ultra rare in drop rate (playing off and on for a year and got 3 total dropped over 5 characters) and subs can open for no cost past the point of subbing. If a F2P gets one as a drop, then has option to buy a key to open.
Was not questioning the annoyance of them dropping in a separate inventory, was posing the question of purpose. That's why I gave the example. If you give the player an ability to ignore the drop with a separate inventory then why not just have them in the cstore? The whole of them taking up room in current inventory eludes back to the in your face choice of use or discard.
Yes. I would. If I go to the store to buy cherries and have to keep giving the teller money for apples, oranges, pears and other crap until i finally land on "apples" then I'll be pissed.
Sell me the apple at a fair, fixed price and I'll decide if it's worthy of buying or not. That's economics. Adding cost without adding value is exploitation. Whether it be psychological, emotional, intellectual or any other form of exploitation, I find it completely unwelcome.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I think you mean "alludes," not "eludes."
My point has always been that they are [i]functionally[/i] the same as a superpack, just with an in-game "ad" to sell you on buying them. People are saying this is not so, that they're functionally different. I am trying to examine what makes it so, to their mind.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Yeah my writing skills have taken a dump over the years, sadly. From my point of view, I view super packs like I was buying baseball cards at a store. I knew what I was buying, a random amount of cards that could or could not yield something for me. Since the super packs were in the cstore you had go to a store to purchase it. Lock boxes are the same but they are dropped in your lap to say here I am, I dare you not to use me. So using the baseball card point of view. Its like here have 10 packs of baseball cards free and clear. BUT if you actually want to open them, give me money. Two sides of the same coin. You pointed out the flaw to lock boxes. Marketing/advertising is what leaves the bad taste in peoples mouths when it comes to lock boxes.
The only thing that made it better in CoH was they gave you better odds of getting the items you wanted. Outside of the AT IOs (which there was a way to change them to what you wanted) one generally got everything offered in the superpacks after only a few of them. They'd have a costume set in there, as soon as you unlocked a costume piece, it stopped giving you the costume piece and increased your odds to get the other items in the packs.
I don't find the other packs to do stuff like that. Also, unlike CoH they tend to want to try and take even more of your money with the lousy odds.
I dont know if Augments, Refinements, etc.. will allow for this, but..
Can we gamble A Star on powering up an Augment, Refinement, etc...
..instead of wasting stars on the elusive Lockbox rewards?
I know, I know... if you try and SKIP that lockbox step, people will feel like its Pay 2 Win.
So, I guess, as long as theres an intermediary crafting step involved its Not Pay 2 Win so much anymore? :{
And i guess, if the players can improve their gear quicker, auction houses might decline in their business? :P
Even with that being the case, I still would rather gable a Start to enhance my gear directly, maybe every other 3 or 4 levels, and I would most likely never look at lock boxes as an option. But thats Only me. ;)
"Wow, you really Dont like betting on an unsure thing? But It's Still gambling!" you're thinking.
Yes it is, BUT... I Know WHAT my Reward is, and how many tries I could make and Stop.
So, I'm only gonna waist only so many Stipend stars that i already have for that month, if i'm a subscriber.
And why let them just sit there? :)
etc, etc, etc... Radiac, i see these cogs turning. ;)
Further, in the market, keys are valuable (millions of EC), current lockboxes are not valuable (tens of EC), and old lockboxes are kind of valuable (thousands of EC).
It's all about the keys.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
For me, the difference between Lockbox and Super-pack is Choice. If I feel like I have too many Paragon Points, I can choose to spend them on Super-packs. I can choose how many Super-packs to buy and I don't have to open them until I'm ready.
Lockboxes drop when the Devs, or the RNG, feel like it. I am 'forced' to deal with them, in some way, even if I'm just ignoring them. I cannot get rid of them profitably unless I spring for the Key. They are not an 'invitation', but a 'demand' in my mind. Not a 'harmless' ad that I can skim past, but a nasty, persistent, Pop-up that won't go away.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Interesting perspective. Reasonable analogy. I hadn't quite looked at it from this perspective.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
To give you my honest opinion: I doubt that someone could make them unobtrusive enough for me. As long as I play, I do not want to find things that are obviously there to entice me to pay. Sure, the less I notice them, the better, but a level I would be comfortable with is not noticing them at all.
They will not stop me from playing and, provided they are easy to get rid of, buying stars and/ or subscribing. But I will have to pretend they are not there and I will not spend money on them.
I can see this perspective, as well. Yes, "pop-up" is a good analogy. They appear, drop into inventory, and wait for some kind of reaction.
I can also see how the "key" to the lockbox is functionally similar to the Super Pack. However, that does not take away from the annoyance factor of the lockbox.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://amzn.to/2MPvkRX
My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
I agree with the no dropping of lootboxes as rewards. I have lived with them in the games I play, but it's much better in TOR as it was in CoH to buy the pack when I want them, to see them on the AH than to have them drop as rewards for me from enemies.
Nothing worse than getting a drop you can't use! Made even worse is you can't use it and forced to buy something if you do want to use it!
And no guarantee, if you do sacrifice cash, that you will get something you can use. I hate Gamble-boxes.
Be Well!
Fireheart
True. With CoH's you knew you were going to get something you'd use. Even if it was crap. CO and TOR...many times I've gotten nothing I can use.
Pages