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Full cloaks and capes and hoods?

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Jordan_yen
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Full cloaks and capes and hoods?

In my quest to get caught up on everything, I found the cape post and it reminded me of one of the things I most wanted to see in CoH: full cloaks. What if I want my character to be envoloped in a wrap-around cloak when standing still, and be visible when fighting or moving (like Raven from Teen Titans or a Jedi)? Has this been discussed before too (I didn't see it in a casual search).

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Halae
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You're thinking something

You're thinking something like this, then?

This both works and doesn't. The issue is that while it presents a very interesting look, the clipping it'd cause would be horrific; I don't know if there'd be a way to get the cloak out of your character's way during fighting, so they'd end up just fighting through it, which... really isn't that heroic looking. That type of cloak was never a thing in real life because at that point it's basically like wearing an extremely long poncho. It works in animated and scripted shows like Teen Titans and Batman the Animated Series, but when you get into the actual logistics of that type of cape movement and how it'd influence the person using it (either in real life or in a video game) it both looks bad and feels bad. Because of that, I find it rather unlikely to be a thing that'll be available to players.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it be available to us too, I just really don't think it's going to happen. If they can even do it, it'd be a ton of work for rather little gain.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

Empyrean
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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:

...it'd be a ton of work for rather little gain.

Of course, there's a difference between what we will have at launch and what we may have two or three--or even five--years down the road.

Heck, we were about to get ancillary power customization in CoH if that last issue'd come out, and that was a NEVER(tm) feature.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

blacke4dawn
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Considering that they will

Considering that they will make capes be "flowing" physical objects that won't clip and be subject to physics then I can't really see a reason to not extend that to such cloaks given enough time, though I certainly wouldn't expect them to be available at launch.

The biggest problem would probably be to get the arms out when engaging in battle or doing an emote or some such and then afterwards "reseting" the cloaks "positions" since the cloak could have been flung back over a shoulder or similar and only rest on the back.

Fireheart
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Hmm, what if the cloaks were

Hmm, what if the cloaks were given a static charge-field, so it was self-repellent? (cloak Hates itself!) Cloak would then avoid folding back on itself and, if it did get folded, would tend to try to straighten-out?

I don't know what sort of internal mechanics/coding would be needed to emulate this effect.

Be Well!
Fireheart

blacke4dawn
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So... we'll have to fight

So... we'll have to fight with it in battle when we actually want it out of the way? Besides, anything that is strong enough to by itself "reset" a cloak that has been completely flipped over a shoulder will most likely become irritating in the long run.

Personally I wouldn't really care about the "RL justification" for the "reseting", just that it works decently and has minimal interference with other aspects of the cloaks usage.

cloganart
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Incoming comment:

Incoming comment:

Imagine that you have the cloak that drapes over your shoulders. Yes. Beautiful. Now imagine that there are other costume pieces that affects the cloak piece - what are these? Chest pieces, Shoulder pieces and perhaps the bicep/tricep pieces. To avoid clipping and keep the quality secure, one would have to build corrective morphs for these.

What does that mean? Those morph shapes would essentially be modified meshes of the cape for the said pieces. And then you're talking about even -more- variations if you want the cape to drape over the shoulder piece, get tucked underneath...or sweep into the chest piece. Plus side is: It's not impossible. But that's just a good work load for a cloak at the moment. I would keep my eyes peeled for future however.

*personally would love to have a cloak that drapes over his character's shoulders*

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Charles Logan
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blacke4dawn
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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

Incoming comment:
Imagine that you have the cloak that drapes over your shoulders. Yes. Beautiful. Now imagine that there are other costume pieces that affects the cloak piece - what are these? Chest pieces, Shoulder pieces and perhaps the bicep/tricep pieces. To avoid clipping and keep the quality secure, one would have to build corrective morphs for these.
What does that mean? Those morph shapes would essentially be modified meshes of the cape for the said pieces. And then you're talking about even -more- variations if you want the cape to drape over the shoulder piece, get tucked underneath...or sweep into the chest piece. Plus side is: It's not impossible. But that's just a good work load for a cloak at the moment. I would keep my eyes peeled for future however.
*personally would love to have a cloak that drapes over his character's shoulders*

How different would a cloak be from a cape in this regard? I'm asking because I can't see a cloak being anything else than an over-sized cape in regards to implementation.

cloganart
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When we talk about the cloak

When we talk about the cloak going -over the chest- and such, there are other costume piece elements that it will deal with. However, if we do not have the time arranged to build all the corrective morphs for the cloak, the technicality says it could be a straight up Spandex/No-Added Piece only piece, it's just that you wouldn't be able to use it/see it with any chest pieces+shoulder+arm pieces. There are multiple solutions for an idea akin to this, but no promises.

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Charles Logan
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Huckleberry
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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

When we talk about the cloak going -over the chest- and such, there are other costume piece elements that it will deal with. However, if we do not have the time arranged to build all the corrective morphs for the cloak, the technicality says it could be a straight up Spandex/No-Added Piece only piece, it's just that you wouldn't be able to use it/see it with any chest pieces+shoulder+arm pieces. There are multiple solutions for an idea akin to this, but no promises.

Cloganart, you are talking about problems of old technology that we don't really need to worry about today.

The armor pieces you are talking about will each be created with collision meshes. Typically collision meshes prevent llimbs from bending in unnatural ways. But we also see them being used to keep capes from clipping through our armors. See this video from the kickstarter updates for an example.

The cape itself will drape upon the collsion meshes. One of the problems we see with this, however, is sometimes a surface like a cape gets inside a collision mesh somehow. When this happens we get some wonky animations until it works itself out, if it works itself out. I'm sure you've seen instances of this if you've watched enough 3D animation.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Fireheart
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
cloganart wrote:

When we talk about the cloak going -over the chest- and such, there are other costume piece elements that it will deal with. However, if we do not have the time arranged to build all the corrective morphs for the cloak, the technicality says it could be a straight up Spandex/No-Added Piece only piece, it's just that you wouldn't be able to use it/see it with any chest pieces+shoulder+arm pieces. There are multiple solutions for an idea akin to this, but no promises.

Cloganart, you are talking about problems of old technology that we don't really need to worry about today.

Huckleberry, are you telling a Dev how his own program works?

Be Well!
Fireheart

Huckleberry
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I must have. What is Mr.

I must have. Perhaps I misread what he wrote. I certainly didn't know who my target was, that's for sure.

...and now that you've quoted it I can't save face by deleting it either.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Fireheart
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Ah! Sorry about that.

Ah! Sorry about that. Actually, I believe this forum software will let you delete it and take my comment away, too. Try it, and if it doesn't work, I'd be willing to delete mine to clear the way.

And, your actual comment was interesting. Are you certain that the software can be taught to operate that way? If so, it would be a good feature.

Perhaps you can suggest sources that the Devs can use, to incorporate such functions?

Be Well!
Fireheart

cloganart
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I must have. Perhaps I misread what he wrote. I certainly didn't know who my target was, that's for sure.
...and now that you've quoted it I can't save face by deleting it either.

I can respond simply by saying -that- is the most expensive method to avoid collision with those costume sockets. The quality of the collision comes into question when you have colliding objects with different poly counts and so forth. Clipping through collission and even more so. So technically, you're talking about a very expensive solution to a very cheap problem. I like the spirit though!

The core idea is to optimize as much as we can. I will leave this discussion at that for a later time. :)

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Charles Logan
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GrazerCoH
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How about if you pick a cloak

How about if you pick a cloak, thats all you can have on that particular costume? There can be different designs you can put on them, but if that was it, would'nt that get rid of the clipping?

blacke4dawn
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Ah! Sorry about that. Actually, I believe this forum software will let you delete it and take my comment away, too. Try it, and if it doesn't work, I'd be willing to delete mine to clear the way.

Nope, removing/editing ones own posts won't affect others quotes of said post since they copy it, not "linking" to it as is evident by one being able to "edit" quotes (like responding to each part individually or removing parts you aren't responding to).

Huckleberry
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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Nope, removing/editing ones own posts won't affect others quotes of said post since they copy it, not "linking" to it as is evident by one being able to "edit" quotes (like responding to each part individually or removing parts you aren't responding to).

That's fine. It isn't the only time I've ever spoken before thinking, and it certainly won't be the last!

Besides, @cloganart, I understand how that can be expensive, since the physics engine would need to keep track of all those polygons in addition to the polygons that the graphics engine draws. So, while giving every piece of armor its own custom collision mesh might be the most realistic solution for an animated feature where render time is immaterial, a massive online game where people have an entire range of capable machines all running a client in real-time with as little lag as possible might need something a bit more expeditious.
If I understand you correctly, it would be less effort to have a number of different capes that each hang a bit differently, selecting the one that best matches the armor being worn. I see that sounds like more effort on the part of the dev team, but at least collisions between objects in game would not all need to be calculated in real time for hundreds of players and all their costume pieces simultaneously. Got it.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Izzy
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
Nope, removing/editing ones own posts won't affect others quotes of said post since they copy it, not "linking" to it as is evident by one being able to "edit" quotes (like responding to each part individually or removing parts you aren't responding to).
That's fine. It isn't the only time I've ever spoken before thinking, and it certainly won't be the last!
Besides, @cloganart, I understand how that can be expensive, since the physics engine would need to keep track of all those polygons in addition to the polygons that the graphics engine draws. So, while giving every piece of armor its own custom collision mesh might be the most realistic solution for an animated feature where render time is immaterial, a massive online game where people have an entire range of capable machines all running a client in real-time with as little lag as possible might need something a bit more expeditious.
If I understand you correctly, it would be less effort to have a number of different capes that each hang a bit differently, selecting the one that best matches the armor being worn. I see that sounds like more effort on the part of the dev team, but at least collisions between objects in game would not all need to be calculated in real time for hundreds of players and all their costume pieces simultaneously. Got it.

i always imagined that if a Player selects a Full length cape, and then activates the JetPack travel power, that appears on the Toons back, the Full length cape's changes to a waist based physics cape, much like some of the trench coats did. :)

Lin Chiao Feng
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I think the short answer is:

I think the short answer is: if humans have to mess with it to make it look right, then it's not gonna happen. If it can be done entirely procedurally and not look like crap, then you'll probably get support for over-chest cloaks.

IMHO one simplification could be to restrict cloaks-over-chests to a simple, relatively static "idle" emote pose; at all other times, the cloak is entirely behind your back. Kind of like how they added selectable flight emotes late in CoH. Then maybe you could reduce the number of collision cases that have to be dealt with. Maybe.

But if any step is "get an artist to fix it", you're SOL.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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I need a hero

I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a hero
I'm holding out for a hero 'til the morning light
He's gotta be sure
And it's gotta be soon
And he's gotta be larger than life

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Logan I understand you are

Logan I understand you are somewhat new here. The word for what you are describing as the status of cloaks is "back-burnered" as in: this item is on a list and someone has put some thought into but it's not a priority right now.

Two other useful status definitions are
Soon(tm) - someone is working on this, it *may* get released before we all die.
Never - Stop asking me about this because it's complicated AF and I've not even begun to think about how to make that happen. Seriously the code is a nightmare, stop asking.

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