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Feeling truly HEROIC- it's the little things.

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Empyrean
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Feeling truly HEROIC- it's the little things.

One thing I hear a lot is that people say that CoH felt truly HEROIC compared to other games out there. I thought we could give the Devs some feedback as to what really fostered this in the game to help them achieve the same--or maybe even better!--effect.

So, I'm not talking about major game mechanics, I'm talking about the little things that 1) did, 2) didn't, or 3) would make you feel truly HEROIC in CoT.

I'll start:

1) Made me feel heroic-

Fighting through waves of minions like Superman fights through waves of Darkseid's Parademons.

Some "gamers" coming from the fantasy genre said CoH was too easy, but I found occasionally the challenge of not being overrun by throngs of minions and lieutenants felt very heroic.

Now, of course you occasionally want that Boss or AV to stop you in your tracks, but barely surviving wading through an army of minions and lieutenants felt EPIC. Good to have both.

2) Didn't make me feel heroic:

Lower-level mobs ignoring/attacking me. In CoH if you were truly powerful, you were... not worth a second glance to common thugs. In DCUO, every little street punk takes a pot shot at you and SUPPRESSES YOUR FRIKKIN TRAVEL POWER!

I always wondered why in CoH they didn't apply an instant fear mechanic to greyed out mobs instead of having them ignore you completely till you attacked them. It would be SO EPIC if you landed and the closest group or two of low-level street punks scattered.

I know this would have been a bit of a pain for some "hunt" badges, but not much really, you could run them down easy enough, and I'd sacrifice a bit of convenience any day to feel more epic in a Hero game.

3) Would make me feel heroic:

NOT flying like a blimp. The fast-but-balanced way they handle flight in DCUO is good. Floating along like a Macey's Day Parade Float does not feel heroic. Blasting through the air at supersonic speed does.

In CoH and Champions, all of the travel powers felt satisfying and heroic to me except for float, er, I mean, flight. But flight feels powerful in DCUO.

Now you! :)

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I always wondered why in CoH they didn't apply an instant fear mechanic to greyed out mobs instead of having them ignore you completely till you attacked them. It would be SO EPIC if you landed and the closest group or two of low-level street punks scattered.

I know this would have been a bit of a pain for some "hunt" badges, but not much really, you could run them down easy enough, and I'd sacrifice a bit of convenience any day to feel more epic in a Hero game.

This is double-edged in a number manner of ways.

The idea sounds grand until you've got higher level characters zipping about the low level zones, scattering mobs because it's funny. I've had to chase down individual enemies often enough to know that a mechanic designed to make me have to do that, should the occasion arise, would irritate me to no end.

What's the range on this scatter effect? Melee oriented characters have to get close to attack, anyway. Will these low level mobs also run from ranged characters or will they blithely ignore them, even though the PC is well within range to unleash all their attacks on them?

I took mobs not attacking my character to be a "let's not annoy the really powerful hero/villain who would use us as tissue paper" thing, which was plenty heroic for me.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
I always wondered why in CoH they didn't apply an instant fear mechanic to greyed out mobs instead of having them ignore you completely till you attacked them. It would be SO EPIC if you landed and the closest group or two of low-level street punks scattered.
I know this would have been a bit of a pain for some "hunt" badges, but not much really, you could run them down easy enough, and I'd sacrifice a bit of convenience any day to feel more epic in a Hero game.
This is double-edged in a number manner of ways.
The idea sounds grand until you've got higher level characters zipping about the low level zones, scattering mobs because it's funny. I've had to chase down individual enemies often enough to know that a mechanic designed to make me have to do that, should the occasion arise, would irritate me to no end.
What's the range on this scatter effect? Melee oriented characters have to get close to attack, anyway. Will these low level mobs also run from ranged characters or will they blithely ignore them, even though the PC is well within range to unleash all their attacks on them?
I took mobs not attacking my character to be a "let's not annoy the really powerful hero/villain who would use us as tissue paper" thing, which was plenty heroic for me.

Yeh, that one may be a bad or unworkable idea, I was just throwing it out there (though I'd still love it :P), but now what do YOU think?

What are the little things that did or would make the game feel truly heroic and epic for the big DF :D?

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Being able to move properly

Being able to move properly while jumping in the air as seen with IR. BUT NO THAT DEFYS OBVIOUS REAL LIFE PHYSICS BUT THROWING FLAMES OUT YOUR HANDS DOESNT.

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Psycho Jas wrote:
Psycho Jas wrote:

Being able to move properly while jumping in the air as seen with IR. BUT NO THAT DEFYS OBVIOUS REAL LIFE PHYSICS BUT THROWING FLAMES OUT YOUR HANDS DOESNT.

Cool, thanks for your input!

My hope is just that whatever ideas people post on this thread might be good raw material for the Devs consider.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Psycho Jas wrote:
Psycho Jas wrote:

Being able to move properly while jumping in the air as seen with IR. BUT NO THAT DEFYS OBVIOUS REAL LIFE PHYSICS BUT THROWING FLAMES OUT YOUR HANDS DOESNT.

Just because you WANT a version of SJ that incorporates the benefits of IR buff built into it doesn't automatically make it the PROPER way it should work. It's merely your opinion on the matter.

Can you actually provide some evidence to show that what you're saying would be a good thing for the CoT Devs to do and/or that SJ is in itself "broken" without it other than just blindly yelling about your suggestion across multiple threads?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Psycho Jas wrote:
Being able to move properly while jumping in the air as seen with IR. BUT NO THAT DEFYS OBVIOUS REAL LIFE PHYSICS BUT THROWING FLAMES OUT YOUR HANDS DOESNT.

Cool, thanks for your input!
My hope is just that whatever ideas people post on this thread might be good raw material for the Devs consider.

Actually it's not a cool input for this thread because Psycho Jas is just whining that this "IR" suggestion of his is getting some constructive feedback on the other thread that he specifically started for it.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Psycho Jas wrote:
Being able to move properly while jumping in the air as seen with IR. BUT NO THAT DEFYS OBVIOUS REAL LIFE PHYSICS BUT THROWING FLAMES OUT YOUR HANDS DOESNT.

Cool, thanks for your input!
My hope is just that whatever ideas people post on this thread might be good raw material for the Devs consider.

Actually it's not a cool input for this thread because Psycho Jas is just whining that this "IR" suggestion of his is getting some constructive feedback on the other thread that he specifically started for it.

Perhaps, but please don't feed the troll :). My hope is that this thread will be a useful source of ideas for the Devs, and if people fall for Jas' bait it'll just become another useless flame thread.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Perhaps instead of fleeing

Perhaps instead of fleeing they could just cower in fear?

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Yeh, that one may be a bad or unworkable idea, I was just throwing it out there (though I'd still love it :P)...

It certainly wouldn't be the same thing, but a long cooldown 'power' that allows the character to send a group of mooks running could be amusing. Perhaps a reward for a badge or a temporary seasonal thing. Or, heck, put it in as an RP support pool power.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Perhaps instead of fleeing they could just cower in fear?

Weren't there different fear mechanics in CoH, or was it that that they changed them at some point?

I seem to remember one where they cowered in place and only fought back when attacked, and another where they ran away and occasionally randomly attacked. Was it Fear vs Panic or something?

Having more than one fear-type mechanic does ad variety to the game, and Villains fearing you does feel heroic.

Also, having low-level mobs cower or run from you in fear could feel very Arch-Villainous, which is the flip-side of heroic.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I love the way Marvel Heroes

I love the way Marvel Heroes keeps waves of enemies coming at you, even when Conning. To me, rest is an earned reward.. I also don't support regaining health out of combat without a heal for this reason.

Having minion fights be easy is fine, but if they keep coming at me I want to feel that threat of going down.

What makes me feel heroic is being apart of a great team. By putting a "earn your rest" type of playstyle it will encourage support players (teaming), and add the needed intensity/pressure I like to feel from combat.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Psycho Jas wrote:
Being able to move properly while jumping in the air as seen with IR. BUT NO THAT DEFYS OBVIOUS REAL LIFE PHYSICS BUT THROWING FLAMES OUT YOUR HANDS DOESNT.

Just because you WANT a version of SJ that incorporates the benefits of IR buff built into it doesn't automatically make it the PROPER way it should work. It's merely your opinion on the matter.
Can you actually provide some evidence to show that what you're saying would be a good thing for the CoT Devs to do and/or that SJ is in itself "broken" without it other than just blindly yelling about your suggestion across multiple threads?

I never spoke about the buff in IR, just the better control ability. If you wanna call it a buff then el oh el okay babe hope you have fun moving really slowly in this new awesome game.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Psycho Jas wrote:
Being able to move properly while jumping in the air as seen with IR. BUT NO THAT DEFYS OBVIOUS REAL LIFE PHYSICS BUT THROWING FLAMES OUT YOUR HANDS DOESNT.

Cool, thanks for your input!
My hope is just that whatever ideas people post on this thread might be good raw material for the Devs consider.

Actually it's not a cool input for this thread because Psycho Jas is just whining that this "IR" suggestion of his is getting some constructive feedback on the other thread that he specifically started for it.

I think its great feedback for this thread.

Keep at it Jas.

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Also can I just point out

Also can I just point out that Lothic is yet to give me an explanation why the more accurate movement provided by IR is a gamebreaking, apocalyptic, INSANE request.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Yeh, that one may be a bad or unworkable idea, I was just throwing it out there (though I'd still love it :P)...

It certainly wouldn't be the same thing, but a long cooldown 'power' that allows the character to send a group of mooks running could be amusing. Perhaps a reward for a badge or a temporary seasonal thing. Or, heck, put it in as an RP support pool power.

And the Nightmare has this on perma-toggle. Because ALL SHALL FEAR THE NIGHTMARE!

Also, the effect someone was thinking of was that enemies cowered until attacked. They then attacked back ONCE and went into cower mode again, or ran off screaming for a few seconds and went back into cower mode.

Made me feel Villainous-

Annihilating the followers of those accursed heroes, the Freedom Phalanx..

Didn't -

...they were all either Longbow or Vindicators. WHY COULDN"T THERE BE MORE VARIETY IN THE SLAUGHTER?!

Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...

Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain

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The main mechanic that made

The main mechanic that made me feel powerful (whether heroic or evil) was being able to take on multiple enemies, and seeing this number increase as my character levelled. I get bored in other MMOs where more than 2 or 3 enemies means certain death, and this number hardly changes all the way through max lvl.

However, for me, it was the writing more than the game mechanics that made me feel heroic. When the task I accomplished helped some powerless innocents, and especially when they would thank me for my help -- that always gave me a bit of a glow.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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The random NPCs on the street

The random NPCs on the street talking about me always made me feel heroic.

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I never set anything on fire accidentally!

The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame

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**Can't resist**

**Can't resist**

"Hey! Stash that stuff. Isn't that Syntax from Tony's block?"

"Maybe. What happened to Tony anyway? I haven't seen him in a week."

"Not sure, but I ain't mess'in with that Tax-guy."

:)

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Terlin wrote:
Terlin wrote:

**Can't resist**
"Hey! Stash that stuff. Isn't that Syntax from Tony's block?"
"Maybe. What happened to Tony anyway? I haven't seen him in a week."
"Not sure, but I ain't mess'in with that Tax-guy."
:)

That just made my night.

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I never set anything on fire accidentally!

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A bit of a twist on this

A bit of a twist on this thread, here's something that made me feel more villainous:

One word: Henchmen.
The mastermind was the most villainously feeling archetype. Sending my minions (of whatever sort) off to do my bidding made me feel truly villainous.

Next would be the dominator, wreaking havoc on those before me, with no form of defense or escape, other than incapacitating the would-be heroes of the day before teleporting to escape.

What didn't feel as villainous was the Rouge Isles as a whole. This is been mentioned in another thread, but still. Being a villain in a place so run down I couldn't possible make it much worse. The disparity between how good the place was and how bad I could make (or how "good" I could make) it was non-existent. The place just made me feel like a thug in skid row.
the other problem with the Rouge Isles was its lake of heroes. Paragon City felt like Heroes vs. Villains, whereas RI felt like Villains vs. Villains. Am I really a villain if I single-handedly wipe out a brutal mafia from a ghetto, or remove monsters from a run-down part of town (wailers anyone?)? Cleaning up the streets if a city is the work of a hero, not a dastardly villain with power and control of his own and more to gain. So much of the game just felt like I was an Arachnos employee.
Mercenaries aren't true supervillains: true supervillains secure power and control, or watch cities burn, whatever their motivation may be. Making Arachnos more powerful is not the role of a true supervillain.


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i guess you're right. I didnt

i guess you're right. I didnt play much on Villain side, but the little time i did spend there made me feel like the trainers there wouldnt allow me to Train Up if i went against them.. so I didnt question the feeling of working as a henchman for Arachnos. ;)

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Making me feel heroic: Saving

Making me feel heroic: Saving the lives of others. I didn't run many Healing Powers but the ones I did run often made me feel really super. Especially on the dreaded Escort missions where a well-placed Heal (or FF Bubble) could make an otherwise impossible mission MUCH easier.

Rezzing fallen comrades. My Emp/Elec Defender was called Major Medical. His battle cry was 'Don't worry...you're covered by Major Medical!' and he had emote phrases for rezzing (Charge 300...CLEAR!) and so forth.

Yeah...my Katana/Regen Scrapper mowing through mountains of agents in any of various maps just felt good sometimes.

Being the lead in one of those arcs with the big finale room. CO was pretty good at this really. You do 2-3 missions, main Boss keeps escaping, you corner him on one of those maps that you almost NEVER got to see with some big generator to stand on and gloat or something.

Helping to defeat anything standing over 10 feet tall. Yeah, there were 20 other people there, but it was still fun!

Getting shot and not falling down. That should be the emote on a Fear attack for thugs. They shoot, you laugh, they cringe and run away.

OTHER Things that would make me feel heroic:

Fighting more than one super at a time. Minions are all well and good but why can't some Lts be low-grade supers? Yes, you need a bigger stable of them but that's SO comic book!

Lifting really heavy things. Swinging/throwing them is nice too of course.

Some sort of rescue mission. CO has a few of these scattered around where you rescue people from burning buildings or plane crashes.

Firing off that one BIG power and just flattening the room. Yeah...you can put all the controls and restrictions on it you want. How about once a mission or even once a DAY? But once in a while I want the big blast...the whammo punch...the earth-shattering kaboom

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Helping to defeat anything standing over 10 feet tall. Yeah, there were 20 other people there, but it was still fun!

That reminds me: one area of the game where I always felt less heroic than elsewhere was, quite ironically, the Incarnate stuff. It seemed like such a step backwards to have soloed a character to 50 and then, when he or she was inducted into the ranks of ultimate power...um...sorry, you need a whole bunch of other similarly-powered friends to take on these enemies. New DA helped a bit, but even there so many missions provided a set of NPCs to assist my new Incarnate who never needed help before.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

The idea sounds grand until you've got higher level characters zipping about the low level zones, scattering mobs because it's funny. I've had to chase down individual enemies often enough to know that a mechanic designed to make me have to do that, should the occasion arise, would irritate me to no end.
What's the range on this scatter effect? Melee oriented characters have to get close to attack, anyway. Will these low level mobs also run from ranged characters or will they blithely ignore them, even though the PC is well within range to unleash all their attacks on them?
I took mobs not attacking my character to be a "let's not annoy the really powerful hero/villain who would use us as tissue paper" thing, which was plenty heroic for me.

I think part of the problem in City of Heroes was fear effect was basically "run away as fast as possible as long as possible until you literally forget what you're afraid of. Then casually stroll back to your spawn point as slowly as possible, or despawn."

It's like the city didn't need heroes, just better medicated thugs.

Anyway, forget "scattering mobs because it's funny." How about scattering mobs because that high level hero is looking for their mission spawned door in the zone, or meeting a friend, or going to an event or contact or store, or doing an outdated mission hunt?

I wonder if the idea might work with, as you seem to suggest, smarter scatter effects? So they won't blindly attack someone who can eat them with brawl, but maybe they'll back off to the other side of the street or, I don't know.. stop mugging the old lady when you're glaring at them?

Maybe not all villain groups should act in the same (simplistic) manner, either? (And honestly.. I have a feeling that's one point we'll see improved on heavily in City of Titans, if for no other reason than to enhance the 'faction' system.)

Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
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AmbiDreamer wrote:
AmbiDreamer wrote:

Maybe not all villain groups should act in the same (simplistic) manner, either? (And honestly.. I have a feeling that's one point we'll see improved on heavily in City of Titans, if for no other reason than to enhance the 'faction' system.)

That was part of my thinking. There will be villains or villain groups for which it makes no sense to run away. Some enemies will be subject to what amounts to thought control (e.g. robots, constructs, zealots) and although it could be argued that they have some kind of self-preservation, it'd be a bit silly to see every last zombie or boomer to behave in this manner.

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Wading through huge armies of

Wading through huge armies of minions and lt's (and let's be real, bosses and EBs too if you were optimized enough) gave an excellent sense of being powerful.

Being heroic though? For me that always came from the narrative.

One of the best examples I can remember of that was the mission in Incarnate-level Dark Astoria where you are rescuing Kadabra Kill and Sigil. You have the option to try to rescue only one of them, which result in a relatively normal ambush fight. Or you can refuse the choice being offered to you, defy fate and try to rescue them both. That option is a lot harder because you're on a 2 minutes countdown and you've got to defeat all of the enemies in the area.

Pulling that off? *That* made me feel super heroic.

I think those moments, the times when we have the option to take the easy way out and can chose not to in order to win a victory beyond what we should be able to pull off, are going to be key to the storytelling that City of Titans will need.

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How about if there was no

How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion? One thing I HATED about TFs was hunt missions. Pointless wastes of time, every one. No story value...just wastes of time. Generally no xp or drops either. So...what if ALL thugs conned based on how bad they were supposed to be with the weakest being green, the next blue and so on? The tech exists...so why do we need to deal with gray cons ever again?

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion? One thing I HATED about TFs was hunt missions. Pointless wastes of time, every one. No story value...just wastes of time. Generally no xp or drops either. So...what if ALL thugs conned based on how bad they were supposed to be with the weakest being green, the next blue and so on? The tech exists...so why do we need to deal with gray cons ever again?

I'd rather see TFs without hunt missions.

The only thing that made my lowbies feel less heroic than being swarmed by "levelless" Rikti that each take 15 minutes to kill because they're really +20 was being swarmed by +40 Nemesis that reduce me to 1 health in one hit.

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion? One thing I HATED about TFs was hunt missions. Pointless wastes of time, every one. No story value...just wastes of time. Generally no xp or drops either. So...what if ALL thugs conned based on how bad they were supposed to be with the weakest being green, the next blue and so on? The tech exists...so why do we need to deal with gray cons ever again?

I'd rather see TFs without hunt missions.
The only thing that made my lowbies feel less heroic than being swarmed by "levelless" Rikti that each take 15 minutes to kill because they're really +20 was being swarmed by +40 Nemesis that reduce me to 1 health in one hit.

Defender?

Not trying to be mean here, but a lot of times when you see this type of post, you usually see someone picked what was essentially one of the most fragile classes or power combos.

One thing CoH didn't do from escaping the sword & sorcery mindset, was get rid of glass cannons and the fragile support class.

Yes, you could build for it though, or with the right support set have awesome survival (I found Darkness and Time Manip to be great at survival), but generally they lacked what most superheroes/villains have (though not all) and that's durability.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion?

This came up in another thread somewhere that I can't remember at the moment. The problem with this is that it removes the option to level up before trying a particularly difficult mission again.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Defender?

Anything that's not old enough for DOs yet.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion?

This came up in another thread somewhere that I can't remember at the moment. The problem with this is that it removes the option to level up before trying a particularly difficult mission again.

My take on this is that it would make all enemies 'generic', no up and down, no texture. Just the same mob in a different 'suit' over and over.

Be Well!
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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Defender?
Anything that's not old enough for DOs yet.

Melee did pretty well for me without DOs.

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I remember CoH updated at one

I remember CoH updated at one point to include this system where certain things would only be seen by certain characters (I recall it showed up in the early missions where you knocked out a bunch of hellions, and came back to the same area, in the open world, and the police were there arresting them.

A system like this might be useful; you could either hide all low-level npcs in general (representing you having 'defeated the local gangs' or something) or cause a ghosting effect if you run up to them and you're a high level character; you see the npcs running away, but a level appropriate character would still see the same npcs doing their stuff in the same spot.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion?

This came up in another thread somewhere that I can't remember at the moment. The problem with this is that it removes the option to level up before trying a particularly difficult mission again.

I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:
How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion?

This came up in another thread somewhere that I can't remember at the moment. The problem with this is that it removes the option to level up before trying a particularly difficult mission again.

I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

I would tend to agree if you have the same difficulty slider that CoH had. In CoH, I wouldn't think that green minions, blue lieutenants and white bosses set on one-player mode so that there were never more than two or three minions and only one lieutenant or boss would stop anyone in their tracks as far as difficulty.

However, people's idea of fun play is different. I like play where if I mess up I'll die, but if I play decently I'm generally ok except for a few surprises here and there, and if I play well I own. Others like virtually no chance of death no matter what, and still others like the "excitement" (stress to me) of certain death on the first mistake--and of course everything in between.

This is one of the things that was so genius about CoH--same game, HIGHLY moldable experience to fit your personal concept, playstyle, and difficulty level preferences. Man I miss it. In other games I too often find myself looking around for the right level of challenge to have fun solo, and run into too much stuff where I'm either in no danger or have no hope for my tastes.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

What if you are playing a squishy, are already set on lowest difficulty, and you run into an EB mission? (Note: solving this problem by requiring teaming ends up removing yet another choice in playstyle -- I want players to have more choices, not fewer.)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

What if you are playing a squishy, are already set on lowest difficulty, and you run into an EB mission? (Note: solving this problem by requiring teaming ends up removing yet another choice in playstyle -- I want players to have more choices, not fewer.)

That brings it back around to what someone mentioned earlier--choice is always best. So being able to choose if it scales to your level or not would be better than auto-scaling to your level whether you like it or not. Choice and flexibility is always best.

It makes me wonder if that is why some "gamers" complained that CoH was too easy when there was almost always a setting or handicap that you could choose to make most things nearly impossible. Now, if they were complaining it was too easy because they couldn't resist using every advantage the game gave, then I don't think it's a very valid complaint.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

That brings it back around to what someone mentioned earlier--choice is always best. So being able to choose if it scales to your level or not would be better than auto-scaling to your level whether you like it or not. Choice and flexibility is always best.

I agree completely. I think an auto-level option would be really useful -- just not all the time.

Empyrean wrote:

It makes me wonder if that is why some "gamers" complained that CoH was too easy when there was almost always a setting or handicap that you could choose to make most things nearly impossible. Now, if they were complaining it was too easy because they couldn't resist using every advantage the game gave, then I don't think it's a very valid complaint.

That's a really interesting point. I always started off every new character on the easiest level and increased the difficulty whenever it started to seem too easy. Granted this was at different levels for various characters, and sometimes I would bump up the number of enemies before the level, or vice versa.

I loved that we had control over these two separate elements of difficulty; it allowed so much tweaking to get right to that sweet spot of fun. In a lot of games (I'm looking at you, X-COM) I find the jump between two difficulty levels modifies too many of the game elements at once, so that one level is too easy yet the next one is too punishing.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Comicsluvr wrote:
I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

What if you are playing a squishy, are already set on lowest difficulty, and you run into an EB mission? (Note: solving this problem by requiring teaming ends up removing yet another choice in playstyle -- I want players to have more choices, not fewer.)

Find someone to team with. Some combos to play are just to weak to handle some challenges. If you can't handle the idea of teaming, then either MMOs aren't for you or you need to realize you just can't win all the time.

Making AV turn into EB was one of the worst things CoH did. Could everyone solo an AV? No. So what? We had a drop mission feature and we had a teaming feature.

And really, should we have made content that can just be soloed by the weakest of powerset combos?

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The question that makes more

The question that makes more sense to me is, "Is it good game design to have power set combinations that cannot successfully solo missions that should be solo-able?" In particular in light of the fact that there was the option to make missions more difficult.

Most of us are aware that times change, so it is not entirely fair to criticise choices made for CoH by today's standards and expectations. Today people will expect to be able to solo with any AT and any power sets that are available for them to use. Undoubtedly there will be power set combinations and/or players who will be able to solo group content, but nothing will deflate the sense of being a proper hero or villain quite like being told, "Aww, can't solo that mission? Then go call the Avengers, you pansy."

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:
I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

What if you are playing a squishy, are already set on lowest difficulty, and you run into an EB mission? (Note: solving this problem by requiring teaming ends up removing yet another choice in playstyle -- I want players to have more choices, not fewer.)

Find someone to team with. Some combos to play are just to weak to handle some challenges. If you can't handle the idea of teaming, then either MMOs aren't for you or you need to realize you just can't win all the time.
Making AV turn into EB was one of the worst things CoH did. Could everyone solo an AV? No. So what? We had a drop mission feature and we had a teaming feature.
And really, should we have made content that can just be soloed by the weakest of powerset combos?

Please refer to my parenthetical expression that anticipated and pre-empted this very type of attempt to force players to play in one person's chosen preferred playstyle.

On a separate note: nods to Darth Fez for his enlightened response.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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This wasn't forcing anyone to

This wasn't forcing anyone to do anything. You don't want to play the powerset combo that's harder to solo tougher to do move faster than a snails pace, then roll a different powerset combo.

You roll a Mind/Emp you were going to solo slow. You roll a Mind/FF you were going to solo slow. This was not the fault of the powersets, this was the fault of the player who rolled the sets together.

I rolled a Dual Pistol, it's damage did not get up to the point to solo many if any AVs, I didn't go "Dual Pistols doesn't allow me to solo AVs, make it easier for me!" I got someone to help. :p

This isn't to say I didn't want it buffed bit too so I could get it built better, but again, why buff down the NPCs that are supposed to be threats? There were combos that couldn't take on EBs and needed help. Do we allow all AVs to beable to be dialed down to minion level? Where's the cut off line on this? Why not stick to such and such enemy is this rank as it makes sense for that NPC?

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No one complained about going

No one complained about going slowly; in fact, my request to retain the option to level before coming back to try a difficult EB mission is arguably slower. My objection is to the suggestion that non-TF content should require teaming. Sometimes it's fun to team up to defeat the bigger baddies; sometimes, as Darth Fez pointed out, it feels more heroic to do it alone -- even if it takes multiple tries and possibly coming back later when one is stronger. Why argue to eliminate an option that allows folks to play the way they want?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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My suggestion of not lowering

My suggestion of not lowering enemies to lower ranks (like Bosses to Lts) doesn't stop what you just said. You could come back to it later.

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I would argue that AVs are

I would argue that AVs are enemies that should be restricted to group content. If the devs put an AV in a solo mission then I expect to be able to solo that AV. I agree that for some players and/or power sets it will be considerably easier to complete a mission if they out-level it by a level or two, and that this option should remain.* If such players want to complete the mission while lower level or even level to it, then yes, they will most likely have to team up or find some other means to gain the necessary advantage.

The statement, "This mission can be completed solo unless you are playing the following power set combinations" is an admission that those combinations are underpowered or not viable.

* Should players generally need to be three or four levels higher to complete a mission with any reliable chance of success, then I believe that those power set combinations must be revisited.**
** Edit: With allowances for the type of mission, since some ATs and power sets will be more suited to certain types of missions than others.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I would argue that AVs are enemies that should be restricted to group content. If the devs put an AV in a solo mission then I expect to be able to solo that AV. I agree that for some players and/or power sets it will be considerably easier to complete a mission if they out-level it by a level or two, and that this option should remain.* If such players want to complete the mission while lower level or even level to it, then yes, they will most likely have to team up or find some other means to gain the necessary advantage.
The statement, "This mission can be completed solo unless you are playing the following power set combinations" is an admission that those combinations are underpowered or not viable.

* Should players generally need to be three or four levels higher to complete a mission with any reliable chance of success, then I believe that those power set combinations must be revisited.**** Edit: With allowances for the type of mission, since some ATs and power sets will be more suited to certain types of missions than others.

Even if AV's are restricted to content that is technically for groups, I'd like for there to be a way to get at them solo, even if it takes a work-around to get at them.

Though I never did it, I enjoyed reading about people who specialized in AV or GM hunting, and I learned a lot from their build guides though I built for concept first (because who wants to be weaker than they have to be in a Superhero game?).

It gave them a place to sharpen the bleeding edge of builds--and it's pretty frikkin heroic. I have to admit I was a little jealous of them sometimes--but not enough to go "off concept" for that bleeding edge build (which was often, but not always, conceptually awkward and goofy).

Still, like I said, I learned enough from what they learned pushing the envelope against AV's and GM's that I could make my non-optimal builds really, really strong--which is fun in a Superhero game.

Edit PS- That that puts me in mind of something. Sometimes the unintended loopholes that players find in a game end up being some of the best things about a game.

I would encourage the Devs to NOT automatically "correct" every unintended dynamic or option that players find or create in the game, but if it doesn't harm or especially enhances the game, be happy with the organic growth of the game and call it serendipitous.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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CoH's difficulty slider is

CoH's difficulty slider is one of the most important aspects of the game for me. It lets players of different skill levels, with different degrees of optimization in their builds, have as much or as little challenge as was desired. Personally, turning the difficulty all the way down was enough to make any normal mission (including the EB ones) soloable with any class and power combination--actually, I never turned it all the way down, although I did run at +0 with some of my blasters. If there are people who did not find this to be the case, then I would support adding easier difficulties and keeping enemy level pegged to the character's level as a function of the difficulty setting, rather than allowing characters to outlevel content. It places the difficulty more directly under the player's control and allows them to adjust difficulty immediately, rather than needing to wait to level up for it to shift, and prevents accidentally outleveling content.

Lack of a difficulty slider has killed my interest in other MMOs I have tried since. When playing TOR, I found most of the normal content (with a small number of exceptions, like the first act closing fight for the Imperial Agent) to be too easy, but the content designed for groups slightly too hard to solo. The sweet spot for me was when I did missions meant for 2 players after I had outleveled them by 1-2 levels, which was fun when I could arrange to do it but generally annoying. A difficulty setting, mission sharing on teams, and a sidekicking system are the three things from CoH that I have to have to enjoy an MMO now, and most of them don't seem to have it.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

How about if there was no 'outleveled mob' but all of the mobs conned to us like the Rikti invasion? One thing I HATED about TFs was hunt missions. Pointless wastes of time, every one. No story value...just wastes of time. Generally no xp or drops either.

The CoH 'Defeat N [villaingroup]' missions, where after defeating the requisite count, you would magically discover that one of the mobs you'd been beating on had the information that you needed to get, and it was just coincidence that you found it on the mob that got you to the defeat count, always seemed highly stilted and artificial -- you're just beating up the members of the group; you don't get any real sense that you're grilling or searching them for information.

SWTOR has several variations on the 'go out and search/interrogate/capture NPCs' mission, where you get a temporary power that you use on the mobs, either while they're at full strength (a 'scan [mobtype] to find matches to a database of traitors' mission, where 'friendly' mobs may turn hostile when scanned), weakened (a mission to recover an example of a particular mob type, where you get a neural override that can be used on a weakened mob to capture them to bring back), or defeated (a mission to retrieve particular items from the carcass of a particular mob type, where you get a scanner to determine if the mob has the item in question). All of these approaches could be used; the 'after defeat' option could have you kneeling to search a body, the 'when weakened' option might give you a temp power to incapacitate an injured mob to question them, and the 'full strength' option would be a variant that we didn't have in CoH, where you might -- for example -- be given a scanner that could identify Rikti disguised as humans, then go out and scan the civilian NPCs, with them turning hostile if the scanner identifies them as a Rikti spy.

Any one of these could make a "Defeat [villaingroup] to find out [information]" mission more than just 'beat up 40 [villaingroup], and the clue will fall out of the sky", with the potential to have the mission complete with the first mob you interrogate/search, or require you to pay attention to what you're doing so that you don't accidentally defeat every member of a spawn before you can interrogate one of them (Marcus Cole: "Bugger. Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!") -- and with enough flexibility in the NPC scripting, you could even (with an appropriate mob group) break their morale and have them surrender and give up the informaiton you want, because it's not worth getting pounded over. Giving the character an interaction with the mobs they're sent out that's more than simply beating them up woud remove some of the mind-numbing boredom that many of these missions -- particularly when getting two back-to-back -- engenders.

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srmalloy wrote:
srmalloy wrote:

SWTOR has several variations on the 'go out and search/interrogate/capture NPCs' mission, where you get a temporary power that you use on the mobs, either while they're at full strength (a 'scan [mobtype] to find matches to a database of traitors' mission, where 'friendly' mobs may turn hostile when scanned), weakened (a mission to recover an example of a particular mob type, where you get a neural override that can be used on a weakened mob to capture them to bring back), or defeated (a mission to retrieve particular items from the carcass of a particular mob type, where you get a scanner to determine if the mob has the item in question). All of these approaches could be used; the 'after defeat' option could have you kneeling to search a body, the 'when weakened' option might give you a temp power to incapacitate an injured mob to question them, and the 'full strength' option would be a variant that we didn't have in CoH, where you might -- for example -- be given a scanner that could identify Rikti disguised as humans, then go out and scan the civilian NPCs, with them turning hostile if the scanner identifies them as a Rikti spy.

All three of these variants are in CO, as well, although the implementation of the "after defeat" gave the clues along with any loot, rather than having a search animation. There's also one where you beat up gangsters until one of them , instead of dropping, holds up his hands and you can interact with him to get the information you need. They also have the "go defeat x villaingroup" variant, as well, but without the rational of finding information, it's usually a "thin their numbers out" mission. But if Cryptic could do it for CO and Bioware for SWTOR, I'm sure MWM can do it better for CoT.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I would argue that AVs are enemies that should be restricted to group content. If the devs put an AV in a solo mission then I expect to be able to solo that AV. I agree that for some players and/or power sets it will be considerably easier to complete a mission if they out-level it by a level or two, and that this option should remain.* If such players want to complete the mission while lower level or even level to it, then yes, they will most likely have to team up or find some other means to gain the necessary advantage.
The statement, "This mission can be completed solo unless you are playing the following power set combinations" is an admission that those combinations are underpowered or not viable.

* Should players generally need to be three or four levels higher to complete a mission with any reliable chance of success, then I believe that those power set combinations must be revisited.**** Edit: With allowances for the type of mission, since some ATs and power sets will be more suited to certain types of missions than others.

Yes, there are some heroes who can't beat up AV level threats solo, but plenty of superheroes like Spider-Man and Captain America tackle those AV level threats solo! Why would you think AVs should be limited to groups?

I'm not saying don't make enemies that are powerful enough to need a group, but I wouldn't want to see them lowered to easier levels either. If my superhero runs into Godzilla, yes, she'll be going "OMG! Going to need backup!" for that greater threat!

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This all seems to come down

This all seems to come down to a power slider with Tick Boxes:

Foe Toughness:
1________2________3________4________5...

Number of Foes:
1________2________3________4________5...

If Solo:
[_] Include AV
[_] Include EB

So you could have a Toughness of 5 with a Number Of Foes 1 for small groups of really hard enemies, or a T:1 #:5 for easy but lots of enemies or anything in between as you chose. Want to Solo but EB/AV's are just too much then turn them off. CHOICE is choice :)

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That looks...familiar... And

That looks...familiar... And seems like just the ticket. The only thing I'd add to accommodate the folks who want it is:

[_] Set base level of enemies to my current level

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:
I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

What if you are playing a squishy, are already set on lowest difficulty, and you run into an EB mission? (Note: solving this problem by requiring teaming ends up removing yet another choice in playstyle -- I want players to have more choices, not fewer.)

Find someone to team with. Some combos to play are just to weak to handle some challenges. If you can't handle the idea of teaming, then either MMOs aren't for you or you need to realize you just can't win all the time.
Making AV turn into EB was one of the worst things CoH did. Could everyone solo an AV? No. So what? We had a drop mission feature and we had a teaming feature.
And really, should we have made content that can just be soloed by the weakest of powerset combos?

Um...how about we improve the weakest powersets so they're NOT so weak?

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

The question that makes more sense to me is, "Is it good game design to have power set combinations that cannot successfully solo missions that should be solo-able?" In particular in light of the fact that there was the option to make missions more difficult.
Most of us are aware that times change, so it is not entirely fair to criticise choices made for CoH by today's standards and expectations. Today people will expect to be able to solo with any AT and any power sets that are available for them to use. Undoubtedly there will be power set combinations and/or players who will be able to solo group content, but nothing will deflate the sense of being a proper hero or villain quite like being told, "Aww, can't solo that mission? Then go call the Avengers, you pansy."

Actually I ALWAYS felt that any AT should be able to succeed with all of the solo content, at least at the lowest Diff. Hence one of the reasons why my Blaster had ALL of the Debt and Damage Taken badges by lvl 30...

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

That looks...familiar... And seems like just the ticket. The only thing I'd add to accommodate the folks who want it is:
[_] Set base level of enemies to my current level

Shouldn't that be:
[_] Set my base base level to that of the mission.

It makes more sense to scale the player down rather than the enemies up.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Cinnder wrote:
That looks...familiar... And seems like just the ticket. The only thing I'd add to accommodate the folks who want it is:
[_] Set base level of enemies to my current level

Shouldn't that be:
[_] Set my base base level to that of the mission.
It makes more sense to scale the player down rather than the enemies up.

Not necessarily. Am I wrong to presume that the XP would scale as well? If you're a LVL10 Hero scaled down to fight LVL3 Minions, wouldn't you get LVL3 XP? If it's all the same, then we're just talking semantics and perspective.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

syntaxerror37 wrote:
It makes more sense to scale the player down rather than the enemies up.
Not necessarily. Am I wrong to presume that the XP would scale as well? If you're a LVL10 Hero scaled down to fight LVL3 Minions, wouldn't you get LVL3 XP? If it's all the same, then we're just talking semantics and perspective.

CoH, when you were exemplared down (either manually the old way or automatically once the 'scale to mission holder' feature was implemented), gave you XP, drops, and debt according to your 'native' level, not the level you were fighting as. So if you were 45 ex'ed down to 15, you'd be getting level-45 drops and XP, and would get debt appropriate for a level-45 character if you faceplanted.

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Doesn't matter either way to

Doesn't matter either way to me; I was just trying to accommodate those that didn't want to fight a map full of greys.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

But if Cryptic could do it for CO and Bioware for SWTOR, I'm sure MWM can do it better for CoT.

Which was my point; if can be done -- and the separate implementations in CO and SWTOR show several ways to do it -- then appropriately thematic way(s) to have character interaction with mobs that are more immersive than the 'you suddenly notice that you got a clue from one of the mobs you defeated after you hit the defeat count' that CoH had.

Also, given the plans that have been described for the process of working up missions from clues, it would be entirely possible to have a "go out and beat up [villaingroup] until you find the information you need" mission that produces completely unrelated mission leads -- you're out strong-arming Council trying to find clues about a group of kidnapped historians, for example, defeating a group of Council that you spotted breaking into a metals-supply warehouse and you find a memo from Archon Burkholder stating that they're experiencing excessive wear in the joint bearings for Project X and need to have their molybdenum supply increased to allow them to produce more durable bearings.

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:
I don't see the problem. If a mission is too tough, dial it down the green level and then even the bosses are even-con.

What if you are playing a squishy, are already set on lowest difficulty, and you run into an EB mission? (Note: solving this problem by requiring teaming ends up removing yet another choice in playstyle -- I want players to have more choices, not fewer.)

Find someone to team with. Some combos to play are just to weak to handle some challenges. If you can't handle the idea of teaming, then either MMOs aren't for you or you need to realize you just can't win all the time.
Making AV turn into EB was one of the worst things CoH did. Could everyone solo an AV? No. So what? We had a drop mission feature and we had a teaming feature.
And really, should we have made content that can just be soloed by the weakest of powerset combos?

Um...how about we improve the weakest powersets so they're NOT so weak?

Because if we keep to sets like we had in CoH, you know that can't happen. And since we don't know how sets in CoT will work, it can go either way.

Example...Empathy. No real buffs for the Empathy user and no enemy debuffs for them either. It wouldn't be a matter of making the set stronger, it did what it was supposed to do and it did it well. Buffing the user and debuffing the enemy was not what it was supposed to do.

Which puts us back to low damage on that Defender, so if they took the lowest tier damage set (which may not be an issue with CoT, as we don't know it's system, but it could be made so all damage sets are equal in terms of raw dps numbers, and the difference is in the tier of damage you ranked an attack and an enemies level of resistance to your damage type) you weren't going to shell out enough damage for those EBs/AVs.

I wasn't one of those who could solo a Giant Monster of equal level, and I didn't think that was bad, and their were people who were. So I really don't see a problem with their being enemies one needs to really outlevel or ask for a bit of help on.

Though I was also okay with a note saying such an enemy would be in the mission. That way we don't run into those missions that required multiple people to click a glowie either.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

In CoH and Champions, all of the travel powers felt satisfying and heroic to me except for float, er, I mean, flight.

Personally, I loved hover. Two slots for flight speed meant I could easily float over my group and incinerate every mob in range without team members blocking my view or melee mobs being able to hit me.

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srmalloy wrote:
srmalloy wrote:

WarBird wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:
It makes more sense to scale the player down rather than the enemies up.
Not necessarily. Am I wrong to presume that the XP would scale as well? If you're a LVL10 Hero scaled down to fight LVL3 Minions, wouldn't you get LVL3 XP? If it's all the same, then we're just talking semantics and perspective.
CoH, when you were exemplared down (either manually the old way or automatically once the 'scale to mission holder' feature was implemented), gave you XP, drops, and debt according to your 'native' level, not the level you were fighting as. So if you were 45 ex'ed down to 15, you'd be getting level-45 drops and XP, and would get debt appropriate for a level-45 character if you faceplanted.

I think GW2 may be an example of a potential solution. In Guild Wars 2 each area in the game has a level cap and players that are above that level are automatically exemplared down to the area's cap. Also, in GW2 the XP you earn is always a percentage of your level. At level 15 killing an even-leveled monster will give you the same amount of progress towards the next level as killing an even-leveled monster when you are level 70. This makes leveling characters in GW2 seem incredibly fast, even though the level cap sits at 80.

I loved the difficulty controls that CoH had (toughness of mobs and size of groups) and would love to see this paired with a content related level cap.

For example, let's say I am level 40 and I am doing a level 30 mission. Since I prefer to have a significant challenge in my games, I have set my difficulty to +4 x8. As soon as I stepped into this mission I would see that I have been ex'ed down to level 30 and the enemies are level 34 and standing around in HUGE groups. If I remember correctly, the missions in CoH increased in difficulty as the mission went on so towards the end of the mission I may find groups of 35's or more Lt's and Bosses.

I would also apply the auto-exemplaring level cap to the larger zones. They could even include your difficulty setting into this as well by making my character 4 levels below the area's cap. This way there would never be groups of greys standing around -- they would always be level appropriate and it would give players more control of the experience.

Although, the idea of the little baddies running in sheer terror at the sight of the super-powerful super hero makes me giggle.

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DaBeetus wrote:
DaBeetus wrote:

If I remember correctly, the missions in CoH increased in difficulty as the mission went on so towards the end of the mission I may find groups of 35's or more Lt's and Bosses.

There were actually three distributions -- 'even', where the levels of the mobs were randomly determined with each
spawn, 'front-loaded', where the higher-level spawns clustered closer to the entrance of the mission, and 'back-loaded', where the higher-level spawns were clustered closer to the rear of the mission map. At one point there was a bug that caused extreme front-loading level decay, resulting in missions where you'd go from yellow mobs at the front to gray ones at the back.

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If I want to fight a map full

If I want to fight a map full of greys, and a difficukty slider will let me do thst whilst still allowing leet players to fight the dame map at the same level only its full of reds, then what's the problem?

The 'AV to EB' thing was a godsend for people like me who could then complete more content in the way we liked to play, ie solo or duoing.

I soloed the Sister Psyche TF on my emp defender with the help of a Shivan, and damn, that felt heroic.

MrCaptainMan, Scoop Malloy, The Accelerated Man, Soundman, The Robot From Uranus, Tommy Atkins, The Dirty Promise, The Psystem, VEI8, Atomicide, Tumbleweed Jackson, Robin Copperfield, Ragtime Smith, Jacque Le Black, Tarquin Wilde...and many more.

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^ Agree. Fine if they want

^ Agree. Fine if they want to provide an exemp-to-mish or exemp-to-zone feature, but it should always be an option, not mandatory.

The idea of a zone with auto-exemp seems like it would inexplicably make my character feel suddenly weakened. To use a CoX example, why would my 50 suddenly find Hellions in Atlas to be a challenge? Going back to lowbie zones where the mobs conned grey reinforced the feeling of character progression for me.

Spurn all ye kindle.